Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.

Ahmad_Bilal

FM is not a sect. It's a forum. It has opinions in its site but many disagree with them.

Sunnism and Shiasm are sects. Here's why

In both, you have to believe in Muhammad. FM is more universal, islam here is descriptive of ur character, not culture.
In both, you have to pray in Arabic through an ancient Arabic ritual. FM ppl generally don't care how you pray.

I could go on....

I disagree with you on this... Yes, Free-Minds has various opinions concerning Islaamic teachings. However, if a person is opposed to certain ideologies that are accepted by "long-standing members", that person is viewed as wrong and unknowledgeable. Other groups ("sects&quot within the Free-Minds forum also do the same thing, going to the point of calling names and insulting other sects and members of them. That, by definition, is a sect...

When it comes to the Free-Minds forum, in comparison to the Sunnis and Shias, the doctrines are the same when it comes to prophets. Yes, Sunnis and Shias teach that you must believe in Muhammad, but it's no different than their teachings instructing their followers to believe in Moses and Jesus. And the members of Free-Minds are also expected to believe in the prophets, including Muhammad. Belief in Muhammad doesn't have anything to do with believing in a culture or nation, since even Sunni Islaam is universal; people of all races and backgrounds are allowed to embrace Sunni (traditional) Islaam... Also, all Sunni groups don't tell members that they MUST pray in Arabic; by most, it's considered optional and applaudable, but not mandatory. In many groups, it is acceptable to pray in one's own language, since simply reciting from memory in a foreign language will reduce the feelings of honor and humility when performing the prayer. Islaamic prayer should come from the heart, and it should be done in a language that the praying person understands. The Free-Minds, however, in many cases, tell their members NOT to pray at all, saying that the concept of "salaat" (if taken to mean prayer) involves no rituals, and that the Qur'aanic command to 'bow and prostrate' are only metaphorical, not literal.

noble

The Free-Minds, however, in many cases, tell their members NOT to pray at all, saying that the concept of "salaat" (if taken to mean prayer) involves no rituals, and that the Qur'aanic command to 'bow and prostrate' are only metaphorical, not literal.

Peace Bro,
Well count me out on this one. Salaat has a physical ritual aspect to it that is clearly explained in The Quran.
To be honest belH, you took more than you can chew, initially, you played the cool dude making a mockery of sunnis and imams, then
you started feeling uncomfortable, maybe with a reverse pang of guilt, no matter, I went through all that too...
I really wish you well, and everyone here, but there is one simple reason why there are conflicting interpretations, it is because many of those doing the interpreting are intellectually lazy and amateurish linguists pretty much hobbyists to tell the truth, and with no command of the Arabic language, let alone that of the Quran.
Another reason is that many are reacting to the straightjacket of sectarianism, and so, will unfortunately err on the side of interpretations just for the purpose of contradicting the interpretations of "sectarians" even if those tafseers are in fact correct.
This is why as a person who is lucky enough to have been brought up learning Arabic by a father who was an islamic judge, i try to moderate my views, and look at both sides of the arguments, and as Allah suggested, and this includes even the understanding of the Quran, "those who listen to what is said and extract what is best" ...
There is really no point arguing with people who have rigid mindsets, Allah said clearly "dhakir idha nafa'ati adhikra" "remind if reminding is of benefit" and this applies to anybody, so called sectarian (aren't we all btw ) or any other denomination you can dream of. Allah also says "dhakir inna adhikra tanfa'u almu'umineen" "remind reminding benefits believers", but since we are far from being believers, that will apply much later, Allah willing...
There are some interesting patterns among free-minders, similar to the ones probably that shaped early Islam to what it is today, albeit of course in a modern framework.
Dependent on their origin, people have a tendency to interpret the Quran in accordance to their mindset, so for those whose background cannot imagine a God who will punish with Hell-Fire, they will tend to ascribe all the descriptions of Hell as allegorical/metaphorical.
Others who cannot accept the existence of other intelligent life forms beyond the realm of our senses will also do something similar.
I recount once a hilarious mis-interpretation of a verse of someone who could not accept that Prophet Jonah was swallowed by a Big Fish / Whale, and he decided to translate "subhanaka" as "swimming" meaning that Allah asked him to swim away from the fish, not be swallowed by it, whereas in fact the word means "praise" and is written differently from "swim", of course that person was not a native arabic speaker.
I can carry on, but for me what I learn is that we move through guidance at different paces, what is important is to be open to Allah's guidance, like Abraham was (he saw Venus he said this is my God... etc).
and to die as a muslim (Jacob to his children on his death bed do not die but as muslims).
then we are truly saved...

SarahY

theNabster, nicely said.

i think that's part of the problem with so many positions it can overwhelm the mind. We all have predispositions and people try to rebel against it because they think it will influence their conclusion (which yes it will) but also rebelling against it does the same.

all people do things according to their mindset or some other 'greater' person's mindset

peace.

Wakas

peace,

The verse is very well-established and cannot be twisted.

Established in your own mind perhaps. Tell us, why did Joseph "twist" it and not cut off hands for theft? Tell us, what happens when someone steals a small item, such as a pen?

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598013.30

I did not see any "indisputable" evidence. I saw evidence that was so poor it is nowhere near the vicinity of "indisputable". Anyone can understand the meaning of "maqam" by simply reading its occurrences in AQ.

So, why free-minds is saying that the Suni and Shia Calender is only Lunar Calender?
They use the sun to calculate day
They use the Moon cycle to calculate the month
and they count 12 moon cycle to calculate the year.

All I know is the free-minds homepage is saying the year is luni-solar, as opposed to the Sunni luni year version. If it is not clear, then it is not clear, but the fact remains you criticised it and also brought a luni-solar theory. Perhaps you meant to say your theory and their theory is not identical, hence the alleged "lie".

Does the above means that Free-mind's understanding is the True Islam Message? If yes, if we do not agree, then we do not follow the Islam Guidance, and therefore, we are not Moslems.

It points out the differences. In any case, your above statement is not the same as what you said earlier

the same with Free-Minds, you are not a true Moslem unless you believe in all of their understanding

Who is the one lying now? It is you, unless you can evidence your statement. Perhaps if you clarified and said "they imply that..." or "that can be taken to mean..." or "i interpret that as...".

The Welcome page is not an article, rather, it is Free-minds.org core view of Islam.

So the homepage is a sect, but not the rest of the site? ;D

But thanks for quoting the homepage, note the words in bold

Therefore, the clearest difference is that Islam is a monotheistic, clear, consistent, dynamic, progressive, balanced system...a system that eliminates conjectures, hearsay, fairy tales and contradictions...therefore it eliminates hardship, confusion, chaos, and division. It is a system which puts more accent on the usage of intellect, reason, pondering over God, His Creation, meaning of life, pondering over everything...

Does the word "everything" include the homepage? Tell us BelH.

YAMU

Slam

I think that he, the free-minds. tries to set up a new scholarship.

Alen

To me, this seems like another sect that has its own laws that are not 100% from Quran; thus, they are promoting what is not 100% Pure Islam.
Peace

Peace,
Respectfully.

Muslims follow The Quran.
Sunnis say they follow The Quran but i have seen them and heard them break the rules and orders from The Quran and decided to follow books written by strange men, known as Bukhary and "Muslim", who claim that their narrations are authentic because it says so on the cover of their book.

God SWT doesn't need to put sahih on the cover of The Quran.
God gives you brain and you'll eventually discover that what God said in The Quran, really is The Truth.

Last night i was talking up until 0200 with a group of sunnis and they have been running towards quoting hadeeth most of the time, rather then answering my quotes from The Quran. When i did quote ayyas from The Quran, they'd ignore it or tell me that i simply don't understand it .... without the "tafseer" or some baseless hadeeth.

Bottom-line is this in Islam, there's no such thing as sects. We were called Muslims way before messenger/prophet Muhammad.
God bless you.
Peace.

himawansutanto

Peace,
Respectfully.

Muslims follow The Quran.
Sunnis say they follow The Quran but i have seen them and heard them break the rules and orders from The Quran and decided to follow books written by strange men, known as Bukhary and "Muslim", who claim that their narrations are authentic because it says so on the cover of their book.

God SWT doesn't need to put sahih on the cover of The Quran.
God gives you brain and you'll eventually discover that what God said in The Quran, really is The Truth.

Last night i was talking up until 0200 with a group of sunnis and they have been running towards quoting hadeeth most of the time, rather then answering my quotes from The Quran. When i did quote ayyas from The Quran, they'd ignore it or tell me that i simply don't understand it .... without the "tafseer" or some baseless hadeeth.

Bottom-line is this in Islam, there's no such thing as sects. We were called Muslims way before messenger/prophet Muhammad.
God bless you.
Peace.

do you have the hard argument why bukhari and muslim has disputed?, would you please to describe how the quran emerge and became the scripture with the syakal and ahraf al sab'ah? give me the argument

Layth

Salam,

This site/forum was created to give people a free platform to discuss/debate and study the word of God as it deserved to be studied - never to be against God's system...To make the site or its members to be the object/goal rather than God Alone is an 'abomination' (always wanted to use that word in a sentence!).

Here is what FM promotes 'To serve God alone and to teach that the Quran's laws overide any/all opinoins no matter what.' If that is the teachings of a sect, then I gladly will be first to belong to such sect. Or, as the prophet Mohammed said when people kept insisting that God had a son

4381 Say ?If the Almighty had a son, I would be the first to serve!?

I have observed that the negative repsonces (not this thread - but in general) to our movement and by extension to this site are attributed (but not limited to) to a number of reasons

The attacks are done by people who continue to 'reject' the system of God and who do not believe in the words of the Quran - thus they attempt to make 'noise so as to distract from the study of the Quran.

4126 And those who rejected said ?Do not listen to this Reading and make noise over it that you may succeed.?

The attacks are done by people who are 'scared' of the changes that takes them away from their established norms/comfort-zone.

2170 And if they are told ?Follow what God has sent down,? they say ?No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!? What if their fathers did not comprehend anything and were not guided?

The attacks are done by people who are 'ignorant' of what the Quran teaches and are in a rush to make judgement without taking the time for proper study/reflection.

9122 And it is not advisable for the believers to mobilize in their entirety. For every battalion that marches out, let a group remain to study the system, and warn their people when they return to them, perhaps they will be aware.

Finally, if what is projected on this site is 'falsehood' then we can all rest assured that what is being projected will fade away, but if what is being projected is the truth, then it will remain long after we are all gone...

1317 He sends down water from the sky, so valleys flow according to their capacity, and the flood produces foam. And from what they burn to smelt jewelry or goods is produced a similar foam. It is in such a manor that God strikes the falsehood with the truth. As for the foam, it passes away, and as for what benefits the people, it remains in the earth. It is such that God puts forth the examples.

belH

Peace all,

Salam,

This site/forum was created to give people a free platform to discuss/debate and study the word of God as it deserved to be studied - never to be against God's system...To make the site or its members to be the object/goal rather than God Alone is an 'abomination' (always wanted to use that word in a sentence!).

Here is what FM promotes 'To serve God alone and to teach that the Quran's laws overide any/all opinoins no matter what.' If that is the teachings of a sect, then I gladly will be first to belong to such sect. Or, as the prophet Mohammed said when people kept insisting that God had a son

4381 Say ?If the Almighty had a son, I would be the first to serve!?

And that is the reason I joined this forum; however, when I read their understanding of God's system (the topic of my thread), I disagreed.

I have observed that the negative repsonces (not this thread - but in general) to our movement and by extension to this site are attributed (but not limited to) to a number of reasons

The attacks are done by people who continue to 'reject' the system of God and who do not believe in the words of the Quran - thus they attempt to make 'noise so as to distract from the study of the Quran.

4126 And those who rejected said ?Do not listen to this Reading and make noise over it that you may succeed.?

I do not reject the system of God that is very well defined in the Quran, Torah and Injeel, rather, I reject all the Man made systems that violates the well-established meanings of God's system.

The attacks are done by people who are 'scared' of the changes that takes them away from their established norms/comfort-zone.
2170 And if they are told ?Follow what God has sent down,? they say ?No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!? What if their fathers did not comprehend anything and were not guided?

I never was scared to change when finding that my established understanding of Quran is wrong; examples, I changed my position of "Hajj to Macca" to "Hajj to Jerusalem" due to YOUR Analysis (which I'm currently defending in this thread); I changed from praying 5 times to 3 times; I rejected all the hadiths that violates the Quran teachings.

The attacks are done by people who are 'ignorant' of what the Quran teaches and are in a rush to make judgement without taking the time for proper study/reflection.

9122 And it is not advisable for the believers to mobilize in their entirety. For every battalion that marches out, let a group remain to study the system, and warn their people when they return to them, perhaps they will be aware.

If my understanding that Hajj should be to Jerusalem is an IGNORANT understanding, then, why did you write your study that was the Main reason that caused me to have an Ignorant understanding? If you choose to abandon your Ideas that you promoted (through your article), then you are obligated to tell us why your understanding was an Ignorant understanding. Then, may be I will agree with you, or maybe I will adopt it and continue to defend.

belH

peace,

Established in your own mind perhaps. Tell us, why did Joseph "twist" it and not cut off hands for theft? Tell us, what happens when someone steals a small item, such as a pen?

I did not see any "indisputable" evidence. I saw evidence that was so poor it is nowhere near the vicinity of "indisputable". Anyone can understand the meaning of "maqam" by simply reading its occurrences in AQ.

All I know is the free-minds homepage is saying the year is luni-solar, as opposed to the Sunni luni year version. If it is not clear, then it is not clear, but the fact remains you criticised it and also brought a luni-solar theory. Perhaps you meant to say your theory and their theory is not identical, hence the alleged "lie".

It points out the differences. In any case, your above statement is not the same as what you said earlier

Who is the one lying now? It is you, unless you can evidence your statement. Perhaps if you clarified and said "they imply that..." or "that can be taken to mean..." or "i interpret that as...".

Wakas,
Before debating with you, are you speaking on behalf of Free.minds.org? Or you are debating your own understanding.

Layth

Salam,

If my understanding that Hajj should be to Jerusalem is an IGNORANT understanding, then, why did you write your study that was the Main reason that caused me to have an Ignorant understanding? If you choose to abandon your Ideas that you promoted (through your article), then you are obligated to tell us why your understanding was an Ignorant understanding. Then, may be I will agree with you, or maybe I will adopt it and continue to defend.

I have not changed my position that Hajj is to Jerusalem and that this is spelled out in the many verses of the Quran that deal with the subject. God willing we will all meet there one day when the Temple is liberated and the pilgrimage is called to once again.

belH

Salam,

I have not changed my position that Hajj is to Jerusalem and that this is spelled out in the many verses of the Quran that deal with the subject. God willing we will all meet there one day when the Temple is liberated and the pilgrimage is called to once again.

Peace,
I'm planning to go to Jerusalem this year or next, God willing.

Then, if this the case, if any one promotes otherwise, would it be fair to call him a sectarian who does not represent the True Islam?
Peace

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace,

I don't have anything against the order and free beliefs on this site. However, the people make the FMs sectarian by calling their beliefs the "right" ones and concluding that everyone else's beliefs are "wrong". Part of Islaam involves freedom of thought and belief; nobody can be forced to believe in anything, since "there is no compulsion in religion". So, why is there so much bias against other groups, especially those who have very similar, nearly identical beliefs?

abdalquran

Peace all,
I knew that this thread was going to be taught
Free-Minds.org should be the Moderator and not the judge between the different understanding of Quran. And if they choose otherwise, then I and others who disagree with their understanding have all the right to criticize them.

So because they have articles, that consitutes making a sect? By the way, FM site has articles written by different people representing different views. It's impossible to accuse FM of being biased in any way.

However, ultimately, we will all have to choose interpretations. Does that mean we're all creating sects?

A sect is characterised by its exclusivist nature. Sunnism is a sect. Quranism is a pluralistic path, room for many interpretations. FM is like that.

abdalquran

I disagree with you on this... Yes, Free-Minds has various opinions concerning Islaamic teachings. However, if a person is opposed to certain ideologies that are accepted by "long-standing members", that person is viewed as wrong and unknowledgeable. Other groups ("sects&quot within the Free-Minds forum also do the same thing, going to the point of calling names and insulting other sects and members of them. That, by definition, is a sect...

So insulting people and saying they're wrong (even if this is true) is by definition a 'sect'? English must have changed since I awoke this morning.

When it comes to the Free-Minds forum, in comparison to the Sunnis and Shias, the doctrines are the same when it comes to prophets. Yes, Sunnis and Shias teach that you must believe in Muhammad, but it's no different than their teachings instructing their followers to believe in Moses and Jesus. And the members of Free-Minds are also expected to believe in the prophets, including Muhammad. Belief in Muhammad doesn't have anything to do with believing in a culture or nation, since even Sunni Islaam is universal; people of all races and backgrounds are allowed to embrace Sunni (traditional) Islaam... Also, all Sunni groups don't tell members that they MUST pray in Arabic; by most, it's considered optional and applaudable, but not mandatory. In many groups, it is acceptable to pray in one's own language, since simply reciting from memory in a foreign language will reduce the feelings of honor and humility when performing the prayer. Islaamic prayer should come from the heart, and it should be done in a language that the praying person understands. The Free-Minds, however, in many cases, tell their members NOT to pray at all, saying that the concept of "salaat" (if taken to mean prayer) involves no rituals, and that the Qur'aanic command to 'bow and prostrate' are only metaphorical, not literal.

Members of Free-minds are not expected to believe in anything. Try declaring yourself an atheist Satanist but keep on discussing peacefully, you?ll see there?s no problem whatsoever.

As for Sunnism, it is NOT acceptable to pray in another language. Apologies but it appears you?re unaware of the fuqaha debates on the matter. All schools agree that if you pray in another language, your prayer is null and void.

FM is not an entity and does not ?tell? it members anything. It has articles saying what salat is but if you don?t accept it, fine. Try this experiment, go to a masjid, during fardh prayer, DON?T PRAY. Or pray in the direction of Jerusalem or Petra. Then when Sunnis ask you, tell them you think qibla is there. Make you sure you know how to tumble and roll though, cause it?ll help cushion the blow when they throw you out.

abdalquran

Salam,
I have observed that the negative repsonces (not this thread - but in general) to our movement and by extension to this site are attributed (but not limited to) to a number of reasons

You forgot the last reason - the possibility that you're wrong. After all, the dozes on revisions in FM articles does show that the writers themselves can admit their own mistakes.

abdalquran

I never was scared to change when finding that my established understanding of Quran is wrong; examples, I changed my position of "Hajj to Macca" to "Hajj to Jerusalem" due to YOUR Analysis (which I'm currently defending in this thread); I changed from praying 5 times to 3 times; I rejected all the hadiths that violates the Quran teachings.

You should adopt a view because of your OWN research not anyone elses.

If my understanding that Hajj should be to Jerusalem is an IGNORANT understanding, then, why did you write your study that was the Main reason that caused me to have an Ignorant understanding? If you choose to abandon your Ideas that you promoted (through your article), then you are obligated to tell us why your understanding was an Ignorant understanding. Then, may be I will agree with you, or maybe I will adopt it and continue to defend.

Because this is not a game of ?follow the priest blindly?, mate. Layth never said ?people who don?t follow me are going to hell?. It?s your responsibility to keep checking the book for yourself. Never be afraid to differ.

abdalquran

Salam,

I have not changed my position that Hajj is to Jerusalem and that this is spelled out in the many verses of the Quran that deal with the subject. God willing we will all meet there one day when the Temple is liberated and the pilgrimage is called to once again.

I'm not going anywhere where I need to walk around giant rocks. My religion isn't about that, sorry.

abdalquran

Peace,

I don't have anything against the order and free beliefs on this site. However, the people make the FMs sectarian by calling their beliefs the "right" ones and concluding that everyone else's beliefs are "wrong". Part of Islaam involves freedom of thought and belief; nobody can be forced to believe in anything, since "there is no compulsion in religion". So, why is there so much bias against other groups, especially those who have very similar, nearly identical beliefs?

Ahmed Bilal, are you a muslim? Do you believe in ONE God? Then you have discriminated against trinitarians and mainstream hindus. Do you believe Quran teaches rituals? Then you have discriminated against people who don't.

We have choices to make in the construction of our religion. Choices imply thinking one side is right and one isn't. Why do you care who believes in what? Consider your own relationship with the Quran. Are you happy with your interpretation. THAT is what matters.

Ahmad_Bilal

So insulting people and saying they're wrong (even if this is true) is by definition a 'sect'? English must have changed since I awoke this morning.

Obviously you didn't read my other responses on this matter... The people make themselves sectarians because they establish limitations on the embracement of Islaam. Therefore, if someone disagrees with their view, they call this person a "kafir" (disbeliever). To refer to others who claim to be Muslims as "kafir" is completely wrong, and it's sectarian in nature.

Members of Free-minds are not expected to believe in anything. Try declaring yourself an atheist Satanist but keep on discussing peacefully, youll see theres no problem whatsoever.

Are you sure about this?! I certainly doubt it, to a high degree. In fact, as I mentioned, there are even others who consider themselves Muslims on here, who seek to remain peaceable with everyone and ask questions and learn about their individual fold of Islaam. Yet, the members of this forum won't hesitate to call them blasphemers, idolators, liars, idiots, disbelievers, rejectors, and every other foul name... So, if this is the case for those who consider themselves Muslims, then how much WORSE would it be for someone declaring himself to be a Satanist or atheist? That's pure hypocrisy...

As for Sunnism, it is NOT acceptable to pray in another language. Apologies but it appears youre unaware of the fuqaha debates on the matter. All schools agree that if you pray in another language, your prayer is null and void.

As I mentioned before, you can't group "Sunnis" into one huge fold of Islaam. There are many sects of Sunni Islaam, and they don't all agree. There are several Sunni groups that allow their members to pray in their own languages, and this happens all over the world. The only ones who declare the prayers to be "null and void" if not performed in Arabic are the Salafis, Qutbis, and Hanafis; most of the others are not opposed to a Muslim praying in English, French, Spanish, Russian, German, or whatever other language they speak...

FM is not an entity and does not tell it members anything. It has articles saying what salat is but if you dont accept it, fine. Try this experiment, go to a masjid, during fardh prayer, DONT PRAY. Or pray in the direction of Jerusalem or Petra. Then when Sunnis ask you, tell them you think qibla is there. Make you sure you know how to tumble and roll though, cause itll help cushion the blow when they throw you out.

And this wouldn't be the case if you attended a "Free-Minds mosque"?!? You would have a nearly identical experience, minus the ritualistic practices. If someone did get down to perform a salaat prostration, he would probably be thrown out violently, since the majority of the Free-Minds say that there are no rituals involved in the practice of Islaam; they say the salaat described in the Qur'aan is only metaphorical, not literal...