Is Rukooh and Sajood part of Salaat ?
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Peace truthseeker11,
You say
?The leader of the group salaat in 4102 does not have the power of telepathy or reading people's minds. The wording is "fa-ithaa sajadoo"/then/so when they have performed sujud. How will the leader know when they have performed sujud? This proves beyond doubt that sujud has to be mental + physical.?
First ? The leader does not have to verify who prostrated on not. He completes the salat from start to finish without a break.
Second ? The believer knows what to do from the verse (easy to understand). The first group performs the first sujud with the leader and then leave while the leader is continuing to do the salat, the second group join the salat and finish it with the leader. This is common sense (my dear Watson).
Third ? A wounded or a dying believer who has no ability to move can also perform the salat with the leader or with the first group or the second group.
Then you say
?You are twisting the god's words again. Where does it say that someone else can wash you? The language of the sign clearly indicates that the god wants the believer to wash/wipe his/her own body parts. Hence your example does not qualify to perform salat.?
To continue with the above theme, let say a believer is severely wounded in a battlefield but able to do the wash and then collapse during the salat but still fully conscious. How does he perform the sujud?
Then you say ??..and therefore has to be able to say "we hear and obey" ?.?
No. That is not the definition of sujud during salat. That is your absurd definition of sujud.
?we hear and obey" means we hear the commandments given to us in the Quran and implement them in our daily life so that we can be close to the God in the hereafter. Please don?t reduce us to a parakeet. Just saying is cheap.
Then you say
?Being deaf is similar and therefore irrelevant to performing sujud during group salaat.?
Deaf people can see, read, understand, and perform physical activities. Why would you excuse them from performing salat? And violate Quranic law.
Then you say
?Do I need to quote 991, 4871, and 7320 again??
No. 991 and 4871 has nothing to do with our discussion while 7320 commands us to do this ??..You shall read what you can of it, and observe the contact prayers (Salat), give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and lend GOD a loan of righteousness??
More verses to ponder on
801 - He (Muhammad) frowned and turned away.
802 - When the blind man came to him.
803 - How do you know? He may purify himself.
804 - Or he may take heed, and benefit from the message.Please read and heed.
Then you say
?Basic instinct cannot be used to twist the god's words.?
Twist the God?s word by whose definition? Yours right? You must think you are infallible. Your posts proves otherwise.
Then you say
?That way everyone can use their own basic instincts even when they are faulty, to give any meaning to any word in the qur'aan and give any sign any meaning they want.?
By George, you got it. That is the point I was trying to get through to you. If someone misuses their instinct intentionally they will be held accountable and depending on severity may go to hell. Basic instinct is the mother of all judgment. An example would be you surrendering you instinct to a dictionary where you find any word of your liking. You don?t care if it contradicts the Quran or not.
Then you say
?Many people in a murder investigation are suspects even when they have never committed a murder before in their life. Therefore just suspecting someone does not necessarily mean that person has committed that crime before. That is a logical fallacy.?
This can only happen if we apply your definition to 4912. With my definition an innocent person will not be in such a situation. Your definition is causing such a situation.
Then you say
?Suspecting someone of telling a lie does not mean they are actually a liar.?
Why would you suspect someone of anything without having a solid proof?
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I believe that the movements/physical part of the salat/bond consists of
- standing
- kneeling
- prostating
I believe that 'sujood' is 'making obeisance' and 'rukoo'/rakiaan' is 'humbling oneself'/'humility'.
On the other hand, "kharra sujjadan" means "fall prostate" and "kharra rakiaan" means "fall kneeling".
Note that "kharra rakiaan" has nothing to do with bowing3824 ...David guessed that We had tested him, so he sought forgiveness from his Lord, and fell down kneeling (kharra rakiaan), and repented.
How can you fall down bowing..?
1958 Those are the ones whom God has blessed from amongst the prophets from the progeny of Adam, and those We carried with Noah, and from the progeny of Abraham and Israel, and from whom We have guided and chosen. When the signs of the Almighty are recited to them, they fall down prostrating (kharroo sujjadan), and in tears.
The above verse shows that we are to prostrate during the salat/bond, since the reading/quran is to be recited during the salat/bond.
Another proof that this is linked to the salat/bond (the verse right after the above one)
1959 Then generations came after them who lost the bond, and followed desires. They will find their consequences.
An example of normal 'sujud' (not prostration)
556 The stars and the trees make obeisance/are submissive/honor (Him) (yasjudani).
I think that standing, kneeling and prostrating are ideal for salat (and reading the quran/reading during it).
First you stand and read the reading/quran and can praise/glorify God.
Then you fall kneeling and you can read more of the Quran.
At the end, once the reading/quran has been read/recited, you fall prostrate.Of course it is not all bodily, but also mental. Falling to the knees symbolizes humblensess/humility (and one should be humble during salat), and prostrating symbolizes full submission/obeidience (and one should be submissive and show obedience to what is being recited).
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Peace Wakas
I forgot to say, if you meant SBH and the timing aspect to it in AQ, e.g. 20130, then some equate it to the regular timed "salat". Of course, this has no evidence from AQ, and actually, AQ refutes it, because the timings contradict each other if an attempt to match them is made. Now, I say they contradict, but more correctly, when I studied it I tried all possible ways I could think of to make them match but failed, and I have never read a post or article that has managed it. Thus, my conclusion is that they are to be taken as idiomatic expressions, meaning all the time. As far as I'm aware, this is commonly stated in dictionaries and even by traditional scholars.
I haven't followed this thread completely, but I would like to comment on the issue of the timing of salat in relation to whta you mention above, particularly the apparent contradiction that seems to exist regarding this issue.
When our study group recently looked at the concept of salat, the issue of timing came up. What I concluded from our discussions & studies was that these apparent contradictions can be resolved when looking at the concept of salat in terms of a gradual progression like many concepts in the quran. I say this because we find that at times salat is mentioned with specific times mentioned & at other times, for example 1778-79 where a very long period of time is covered. This, to me indicates that at the beginning of Muhammad's mission, when people needed to be concerned with finding their livelihood, they were required to commit to the call to salat (however one interprets salat) at certain times. This seems logical to me as the time they could devote to the salat was limited. As time went on & the society created by following what was revealed in the quran took shape, the needs of society were taken care of through the society, & people now were required to answer the call to salat at any time during the day as they no longer have the pressure of looking for their livelihood in the same way they did before.
This is an opinion based on my understanding of various concepts from the quran. I am currently looking into this issue of the timing of salat in more depth, though & would appreciate any thoughts people may have on this opinion. If necessary we could start another thread as I don't want to detract from the current discussion.
Imraan
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peace Imraan,
The problems/contradictions only arise from the timings related to the term SBH (if one attempts to equate them with salat), not the timings given for SLW. The interpretation you have for 1778 having a long time period is the weaker of the options, and in my opinion is not even viable according to the Quranic evidence. There have been many threads on the timing issue.
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Peace all,
In my last post I have said that "kharra sujjadan" means "fall prostrate", however, I don't think this is the case.
Please compare the following
(Talking about the righteous)
2573 Those who when they are reminded of their Lord's signs, they do not fall (lam yakhirroo) on them deaf and blind.And
1958 Those are the ones whom God has blessed from amongst the prophets from the progeny of Adam, and those We carried with Noah, and from the progeny of Abraham and Israel, and from whom We have guided and chosen. When the signs of the Almighty are recited to them, they fall down making obeisance (kharroo sujjadan), and in tears.
What do you think about the following?
17107 Say, "Acknowledge it or do not acknowledge. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins sujjadan (yakhirroona lil-athqanisujjadan).
17108 They say, "Praise be to our Lord. Truly, the promise of our Lord was fulfilled."
17109 They fall upon their chins crying (yakhirroona lil-athqaniyabkoona), and it increases them in humility.
17110 Say "Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names." And do not be too loud in making your salat, nor too quite; but seek a path in between.
17111 Say, "Praise is to God, who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness." Glorify Him greatly.
Would the fact that "chins" is used indicate that we are to prostrate on the chin during salat?
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peace p1993,
I recommend re-reading.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598162.msg206637#msg206637
I was reading Mustansir Mir's unique work "Verbal Idioms of The Quran" and in it he cites "fall to the chin" as a verbal idiom meaning extreme humility, for the chin represents pride, it is something to be held high, and to fall down on one's chin is to abase oneself, and when used in AQ means to humble oneself before God, and cites a poem by Imru al-Qays* about how mighty trees were humbled by a strong downpour of rain, and they "fell to the chin".
Not to mention the following
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598240.msg199419#msg199419Not to mention the following
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598350.msg202325#msg202325The content and findings in the above 3 posts deserve an article on their own, but alas, I am busy. To sum it up the "fall to the chin" in sjd argument has been smashed completely, and the sjd=physical prostration argument has been critically damaged to the point where it cannot be considered likely and only a theoretical possibility in some occurrences. Similar to how any Arabic word in AQ can mean any of its Classical Arabic meanings in some occurrences, theoretically. In other words, no evidenced argument can be made other than this.
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I think it's interesting to note that there's no reference of a (possible) physical sujud to the God. Obviously, Joseph's parents weren't serving/"worshipping" Joseph, when they 'fell prostrate' (12100).
It's also important to study verses like 7120 and 2070. The translations are just not very accurate, IMO. Lam-qaf-ya means thrown/encounter etc, not 'went down' or 'fell'. 2729 is a good starting point.
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peace p1993,
I recommend re-reading.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598162.msg206637#msg206637
Not to mention the following
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598240.msg199419#msg199419Not to mention the following
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598350.msg202325#msg202325The content and findings in the above 3 posts deserve an article on their own, but alas, I am busy. To sum it up the "fall to the chin" in sjd argument has been smashed completely, and the sjd=physical prostration argument has been critically damaged to the point where it cannot be considered likely and only a theoretical possibility in some occurrences. Similar to how any Arabic word in AQ can mean any of its Classical Arabic meanings in some occurrences, theoretically. In other words, no evidenced argument can be made other than this.
Thanks. I guess 'sujud', 'kharra sujud', etc. isn't about prostration after all.
What is your opinion on 'kharra rikiaan" in 3824? Humbleness/metaphorical kneeling?
I think it's interesting to note that there's no reference of a (possible) physical sujud to the God. Obviously, Joseph's parents weren't serving/"worshipping" Joseph, when they 'fell prostrate' (12100).
It's also important to study verses like 7120 and 2070. The translations are just not very accurate, IMO. Lam-qaf-ya means thrown/encounter etc, not 'went down' or 'fell'. 2729 is a good starting point.
Good point. Also the sjd in 1761, 3873 and other places where God is described as commanding the universal forces and satan to make sjd to Adam...
3873 The angels made sjd, all of them,
3874 Except Satan; he turned arrogant, and became one of the ingrates/rejecters.3875 He said, "O Satan, what prevented you from making sjd to what I have created by My hands? Are you too arrogant? Or are you one of those exalted?"
Good contrast between sjd and being arrogant.
Falling sjd is, IMO, total submission and humility/the complete opposite of arrogance.
17107 Say, "Acknowledge it or do not acknowledge. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins sujjadan.
17109 They fall to their chins crying, and it increases them in humility.
It is also interesting that in 17109 there is no 'sjd' - only falling to the chin is being described.
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Peace,
If "salaat" is not physical, but it's only metaphorical, then what is "wudhu"? Is that metaphorical too? How can you have a physical ablution, but then have a non-physical worship following it? If salaat is not literal, then wudhu can't be literal either... So, what is it?
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Peace Ahmad
Peace,
If "salaat" is not physical, but it's only metaphorical, then what is "wudhu"? Is that metaphorical too? How can you have a physical ablution, but then have a non-physical worship following it? If salaat is not literal, then wudhu can't be literal either... So, what is it?
Of course salat is PHYSICAL you stand and PHYSICALLY move your mouth while reciting the quran/recitation, for example; of course the ablution is PHYSICAL as well you PHYSICALLY wash yourself. We are only discussing the meaning of sjd. My current view is that sjd doesnt mean prostration. There is a lot of evidence against the prostration understanding. If you believe otherwise, you are welcome to share your evidence/views.
peace
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3824 can be taken to mean he "fell humbly/inclining and repented", i.e. inclined or became humble to the utmost and repented. This matches the context. I am not sure where "kneeling" comes from but if it is a Classical Arabic meaning then it could mean "fell kneeling".
"khrr" is often used idiomatically to mean "falling absolutely", i.e. doing something to the utmost of it, as exampled in AQ itself, e.g. "fall to the chin", or see 2573 "Those who when they are reminded of their Lord's signs, they do not fall/khrr on them deaf and blind."
i.e. one should fall upon them hearing and seeing, i.e. give them the utmost attention/thought.
As a side note, there are other Arabic words which can have a meaning of physical prostration, e.g. Kaf-Ba-Ba, Siin-Tay-Ra, Ta-Lam-Lam, Kaf-Ba-Ta.
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In "al salaat" (Gematrical value 162), We pray God There are 6221 verses from the first to the last occurrence of God. 6221 is the the 810 prime number = 5 x 162.
6221 is a prime number but so what?
Where does 810 come from? 810 is not a prime number.
162 is not a prime number.
