Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.
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Peace,
Cut off their hands is the correct translation.
this is incorrect.
because it talks about cutting out both hands of each persons, the man and the woman...
aydyahuma and not aydyahum...
so it has to be another interpretation, unless you want to amputate the two hands of the thief in one go...i do not also agree about your interpretation of the other case with bigger sums of money, i.e. in the case of corruption
for powerful people...
i can explain in this case, in those days the rulers had a law they applied to their servants (or slaves, prisoners, etc) and one for themselves (or more exactly none on themselves), which was what Allah threatened them with, because they will not apply it to themselves (i.e. being crucified, exiled, etc), that was meant as a moral point and a warning threat...
so the interpretation for theft is cutting the hands of the thieves away from the source of their mischief, and making them repay the owner or society what they have taken. This is more productive and reasonable... -
Peace Nabster,
If you recite this to any Arabic speaker, kid or adult, he or she will understand the meaning
538
Peace belH
Our Arabic has been hadithized, sorry...
and i am a born arabic speaker...
but i knew about the amputating before reading the ayat, talk about putting the cart
before the horse,
of course we are primed to think the meaning, even before we read it,
we are given the meaning before we even read the ayat in the Quran!
it is very vicious...
oki... -
Good, thanks for quoting Malik below. I knew you would quote that because all along, you have been confusing these concepts.
Look at what you said below (I?ve underlined the emphatic parts)I didn't say anything about "Sunni opinion". I showed what Sunni doctrines state according to the hadiyths and sunna. The opinions of their scholars and imaams are accepted by some and rejected by others; but the hadiyths and sunna, combined with the Qur'aan, are considered INFALLIBLE according to Sunnis... You're telling me you didn't know something as simple as this, even though you're claiming to be the expert on all things related to Sunni Islaam?!
Now your latest quote
It's not a hard concept to grasp. According to the sunna, all the prophets were INFALLIBLE, and the Qur'aan is the INFALLIBLE word of Allah. Therefore, if the sunna is the infallible way of Muhammad, the hadiyths are the infallible words of Muhammad and his companions, and the Qur'aan is the infallible word of Allah, then obviously the Qur'aan and sunna together are infallible...
http//www.sunnah.org/aqida/infallibility_of_prophets.htmAccording to the hadiyths
Imaam Maalik (ra) said, "The saying of everyone may be taken or rejected except for the companion of this grave" and he pointed to the grave of the Prophet (saw). {This excellent saying,overflowing with great wisdom,was said by the learned man of this Ummah, Abdullaah ibn Abbas (ra) as quoted by Taqiyyuddeen as-Subkee in his Fatawaa(1/14 being amazed by its beauty. It was taken from Ibn Abbaas (rta) by Mujaahid, as occurs in Jaami Bayaan ul-ilm wa Fadlihee (1/91) and al-Ihkaam fee Usool il-Ahkaam (1/145). Maalik took it from Mujaahid and it is ascribed to Maalik and became well known from him. It was taken from them by Imaam Ahmad (ra) Abu Daawood says in Masaa-il-ul-Imaam Ahmad (p.276) "I heard Ahmad say There is no one except that his opinion may be taken or left,except fpr the prophet(saw)."}
Therefore, the Qur'aan, combined with the sunna and hadiyths, equals the INFALLIBLE word of Allah and the INFALLIBLE teachings of Muhammad.
You see the difference? Probably not so I?ll spell it out for you
- Your point was that HADITH and SUNNAH are infallible
- You quoted a saying of Malik which says THE AUTHORITY OF THE PROPHET is infallible
Sunnis do not see hadith and sunnah as infallible. That is why, to this day, there are debates surrounding hadith authenticity. Mohd Hashim Kamali (the Law chancellor of the International Islamic University) says in ?a Manual of Hadith?, ?no hadith can be said to be infallibly authentic?
Get it right, please.
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peace hope4,
See the link referenced in this thread
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/cut-off-hands-theft.htmPeace Wakas
A very informative article, thank you for that. Can I just add this into the mix for those who still believe it is cutting off hand. Imagine why someone will steal, the reason could be they need to buy food for their family/provide for their family and others may do it as a chosen profession. How can anyone justify cutting another mans/womans hand who is simply trying to survive. For example, lets say he/she stole some food. Do we cut off their hand? That beats the purpose, now he has no means of providing for his family. Lot of people do desperate things when they have no other option open to them, I feel forgiving and possibly finding a solution is more fitting then a punishment that may not fit the crime. I maybe wrong but thats my thoughts. Also if people steal out of hopelessness, they cant find work etc.. should we not be questioning our governments system. What are they doing for these people? are they providing anything for them so they can earn an honest wage? The truth is people in power do not have much morals, their fat bellies are full and they require such deterants to scare the population.
Peace
Hope
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Peace Wakas
A very informative article, thank you for that. Can I just add this into the mix for those who still believe it is cutting off hand. Imagine why someone will steal, the reason could be they need to buy food for their family/provide for their family and others may do it as a chosen profession. How can anyone justify cutting another mans/womans hand who is simply trying to survive. For example, lets say he/she stole some food. Do we cut off their hand? That beats the purpose, now he has no means of providing for his family. Lot of people do desperate things when they have no other option open to them, I feel forgiving and possibly finding a solution is more fitting then a punishment that may not fit the crime. I maybe wrong but thats my thoughts. Also if people steal out of hopelessness, they cant find work etc.. should we not be questioning our governments system. What are they doing for these people? are they providing anything for them so they can earn an honest wage? The truth is people in power do not have much morals, their fat bellies are full and they require such deterants to scare the population.
Peace
Hope
And that is what Taliban leader Mr. Bilal do not understand.
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Peace Wakas
A very informative article, thank you for that. Can I just add this into the mix for those who still believe it is cutting off hand. Imagine why someone will steal, the reason could be they need to buy food for their family/provide for their family and others may do it as a chosen profession. How can anyone justify cutting another mans/womans hand who is simply trying to survive. For example, lets say he/she stole some food. Do we cut off their hand? That beats the purpose, now he has no means of providing for his family. Lot of people do desperate things when they have no other option open to them, I feel forgiving and possibly finding a solution is more fitting then a punishment that may not fit the crime. I maybe wrong but thats my thoughts. Also if people steal out of hopelessness, they cant find work etc.. should we not be questioning our governments system. What are they doing for these people? are they providing anything for them so they can earn an honest wage? The truth is people in power do not have much morals, their fat bellies are full and they require such deterants to scare the population.
Peace
Hope
Peace all,
The cases you identified above are not thieves, and therefore, the punishment is not applicable. I have proposed to Wakas that we can not arrgue about the punishment, however, we can argue about the definition of thief. However, Ego can prevent us from agreeing.
Peace belH
Our Arabic has been hadithized, sorry...
and i am a born arabic speaker...
but i knew about the amputating before reading the ayat, talk about putting the cart
before the horse,
of course we are primed to think the meaning, even before we read it,
we are given the meaning before we even read the ayat in the Quran!
it is very vicious...
oki...I'm born Arabic speaker too...No one can argue with God in the JD and say that these words
Do not Mean "Cut Off their Hands"...If you or any one chooses to argue, then Good Luck in JD; but do not forget to Collect all the dictionaries that you can find and store them with you in your grave, so you can be ready in the JD . -
Peace all,
I'm porn Arabic speaker too...No one can argue with God in the JD and say that these words
Do not Mean "Cut Off their Hands"...If you or any one chooses to argue, then Good Luck in JD; but do not forget to Collect all the dictionaries that you can find and store them with you in your grave, so you can be ready in the JD .Peace
err it is born and not porn I hope you know the difference right lol...
oki belH I also advise you to collect as much hadith and scholar writings supporting your interpretation as possible, and we will see on JD how Allah will settle between us...
and no need to be sarcastic about the stupid joke of the grave, i won't follow you on this one as in everything regarding Deen, these are serious matters...
i still have not forgotten that you made a joke about me being an imam for a while in my past...
i think in view of your flip flopping not being firmly on one side or the other, you will be rewarded the worst in dunya and akhyra...
that is the reward for those who do not think with their heads and follow their emotions which means hot air... -
oki belH I also advise you to collect as much hadith and scholar writings supporting your interpretation as possible, and we will see on JD how Allah will settle between us...
and no need to be sarcastic about the stupid joke of the grave, i won't follow you on this one as in everything regarding Deen, these are serious matters...
i still have not forgotten that you made a joke about me being an imam for a while in my past...
i think in view of your flip flopping not being firmly on one side or the other, you will be rewarded the worst in dunya and akhyra...
that is the reward for those who do not think with their heads and follow their emotions which means hot air...Peace, my interpretation is not based on Hadith...It based on word by word translation.
Question, if God revealed to us the punishments of any crime, in your understanding, what are the revealed punishments for
Killing
Stealing
Zina(sorry about the typo... ;D)
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no matter if you like it or not but that is already well established !
Abu Dawud
Book 38, Number 4396Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah
A thief was brought to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him). He said Kill him. The people said He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah! Then he said Cut off his hand. So his (right) hand was cut off. He was brought a second time and he said Kill him. The people said He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah! Then he said Cut off his foot.
So his (left) foot was cut off.
He was brought a third time and he said Kill him.
The people said He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah!
So he said Cut off his hand. (So his (left) hand was cut off.)
He was brought a fourth time and he said Kill him.
The people said He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah!
So he said Cut off his foot. So his (right) foot was cut off.
He was brought a fifth time and he said Kill him.
So we took him away and killed him. We then dragged him and cast him into a well and threw stones over him.
laugh
this is funny, I wonder how he stole with no feet and no hands? Did he use his mouth to pick up stuff and crawl on the ground? ??? Thieving in that manner would be kinda hard... -
Thus, this is indisputable Quranic Laws
Quran, Bible and Torah are Good, and Other Man-made books are Evil.
A book can't be good or evil. Only actions can be. As for books, some may have some good advice, some may have descriptions and thought provoking stories, but what one does with them is entirely upto the person reading them.
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;D
It's ok, we all make typos when the letters on the keyboard are close to..... oh wait... o
Funny, but not expected from a respectful Free-minds.org Moderator. (hopefully that would show the reader what type of forum you are representing)
Will, it seems you are just reading (i.e., Moderating) the thread to look for typos...will, you will find many (including funny ones) especially from the Arabic Speakers; however, when you have enough fun, try to focus in the subject, maybe you can convince us that free-minds.org doctrine is flawless.
May God forgive us for our mistakes and allow us to see the truth.
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A book can't be good or evil. Only actions can be. As for books, some may have some good advice, some may have descriptions and thought provoking stories, but what one does with them is entirely upto the person reading them.
Peace,
Agree with you; however, any Book or article that is written for religious purpose to mislead others, from God's Books, is Evil.
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- Your point was that HADITH and SUNNAH are infallible
- You quoted a saying of Malik which says THE AUTHORITY OF THE PROPHET is infallible
Sunnis do not see hadith and sunnah as infallible. That is why, to this day, there are debates surrounding hadith authenticity. Mohd Hashim Kamali (the Law chancellor of the International Islamic University) says in ?a Manual of Hadith?, ?no hadith can be said to be infallibly authentic?
This doesn't make any sense. Most Sunni scholars agree, if not upon anything else, that the hadiyths are the words of Muhammad. And even if (hypothetically) they disagreed on that aspect, they ALL believe that the sunna is the way of Muhammad. Therefore, if they believe the authority (i.e. words and deeds) of Muhammad are infallible, then that is the same thing as saying the hadiyths and sunna are infallible. Plus, they already agree that the Qur'aan is the infallible word of Allah. Therefore, if the hadiyths agree with the Qur'aan on a certain issue (or appear to agree with it), then they will definately take that hadiyth as authentic, being the infallible word of the prophet...
You obviously didn't read what I posted, so I'll post it again and point out exactly what you need to read
I didn't say anything about "Sunni opinion". I showed what Sunni doctrines state according to the hadiyths and sunna. The opinions of their scholars and imaams are accepted by some and rejected by others; but the hadiyths and sunna, combined with the Qur'aan, are considered INFALLIBLE according to Sunnis... You're telling me you didn't know something as simple as this, even though you're claiming to be the expert on all things related to Sunni Islaam?!
You see it now? I said the hadiyths and sunna, COMBINED WITH THE QUR'AAN, are considered infallible, since they are the words of Allah and His prophet. There is no question concerning this, and any Sunni, or Shia for that matter, will tell you the same thing...
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Peace,
Agree with you; however, any Book or article that is written for religious purpose to mislead others, from God's Books, is Evil.
An atheist could say the same about the Bible and Torah for taking lives in God's name. Simply because the people who follow them happen to be Al Qaeda terrorists, Lord's army or Zionists.
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An atheist could say the same about the Bible and Torah for taking lives in God's name. Simply because the people who follow them happen to be Al Qaeda terrorists, Lord's army or Zionists.
Peace,
Alqaida follows Evil Books (e.g., hadiths, Wahabi Sharia) and non-well-established Quranic verses (i.e., The verses that call for fighting when Moslem are under attack). The well-established verses call for Peace with Humans when Moslems are not under attack. Thus, Alqaida are the results of such Evil Books.
