Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.
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You have definitely not paid attention to what others and I have written. Anyways, continue with your "cut their three or more hands" interpretation, if you like, and ignore all the evidence/points that have been brought forward in this discussion.
122 We have sent it down an Arabic reading, so that you might encompass it with your reason and intellect.
1789 We have cited to the people in this reading of every example, but most of the people refuse to be anything but ingrates!
3058 We have cited for the people in this reading of every example. If you come to them with a sign, those who rejected will say, "You are bringing falsehood!"
you still did not answer my question how would you go about enforcing the thief to work and repay what was stolen, especially if he needs to work to repay 50 billion dollar? Would you leash him so he will not run away, and what kind of job would make him earn 50 billion dollar?
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Do the Parts that speak about "Abraham had two wives" and "Pilgrim is to Jerusalem" are Hearsay?
Peace belH
I am sorry I do not have much knowledge of the bible, but only what I have been told or seen on lectures. God willing I will read more to reseach for myself one day. Of what I have read I could not accept e.g. making partners to God. So I am inclined to accept that the Bible has been corrupted in one way or another. But as I say more knowledgable brothers have read it and studied it for many years and what I know of it is through them at present.
Peace
Hope
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That's a traditional story, it's not supported in the Qur'aan. As far as we know, based on the Qur'aan, both Ishmael and Isaac were born of the same mother (i.e. Sarah).
Could you please tell me more about that? Like articles and verse numbers?
I always found it strange that the Quran mentions Ibrahim's wife, but never mentions her name, but it also could be that I overlooked it. -
Peace belH
I am sorry I do not have much knowledge of the bible, but only what I have been told or seen on lectures. God willing I will read more to reseach for myself one day. Of what I have read I could not accept e.g. making partners to God. So I am inclined to accept that the Bible has been corrupted in one way or another. But as I say more knowledgable brothers have read it and studied it for many years and what I know of it is through them at present.
Peace
Hope
Me too, I did not have much knowledge of Torah and Injeel because I relied on the Suni and Shia opinion until I started to investigate by myself.
Please do the job by yourself...Here were you can find word by word translation for the Torah and Injeel
http//www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm
Peace
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Me too, I did not have much knowledge of Torah and Injeel because I relied on the Suni and Shia opinion until I started to investigate by myself.
Please do the job by yourself...Here were you can find word by word translation for the Torah and Injeel
http//www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm
Peace
Peace belh
Thank you for the site.
Peace
Hope
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Peace belh
Thank you for the site.
Peace
Hope
You welcome! Remember, The Quran should be your guide to know the true words of your Lord when reading the other books ( there shall be no contradiction between the Books).
May God increase our Knowledge.
Peace -
Could you please tell me more about that? Like articles and verse numbers?
I always found it strange that the Quran mentions Ibrahim's wife, but never mentions her name, but it also could be that I overlooked it.Does knowing the name change anything? Will it lead to guidance?
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Peace
As I have not fully rejected the usefulness of hadith (provided not for legal or religious binding duties), and I look at the bible as historical accounts from the lives of the prophets, i do accept that Abraham had two wives, Hajar and Sarah, Hajar gave Ismael, and Sarah gave Isaac...
From the Bible and the Quran it is also very clear in my understanding that the first Temple in Becca was put up by Abraham in Jerusalem and it is the Qibla for us and where we should perform the pilgrimage.
We have now some good work done by herbman that in fact Joseph was taken to Babylon and not Egypt as first thought and that Jacob's descendant Moses lived there with the Pharao referred to in the Quran who was therefore either Persian or Sumerian.
Please also note that Allah in the Quran rarely refers to people by their names, apart from Prophets and a few others, there is most probably a very good reason for that.
Also remember the story of the youth of the cave and the argument of the city dwellers about how long they slept, and how many they were, and what to do about where their burial ground was, instead of focusing on the reason behind why those youth were taken away in the first place, and the miracle behind that...
This is our story arguing about little details...
and making someone kafeer because he does not believe if Abraham married one wife or two wives...
We need to focus on the bottom line which is salvation...
and most of us are not fit to be good ulama, because we are incapable to accept differing opinions... yes you read right, being a believer does not mean being a drone, you are entitled to many opinions, and free to exchange them, of course, peacefully and courteously... -
Just to add my two cents worth...It seems from the Quran that Abraham was indeed married to two women. One who bore him Ismail, and, many years later, another who bore him Isaac.
The evidence for this can be found as follows
- When Abraham is raising the foundation of the Temple, he is helped by Ismail, who, to help in such task, must at least have been a young adult.
- When Abraham is visited in old age by the angels, and is given news of a son, he says his wife is barren and could not possibly have children (thus ruling her out from being Ismail's mother).
- The conversation of Abraham with the angels always refers to one wife (he never says "one of my wives is barren"...he simply says "my wife is barren" which means that the mother of Ismail is no longer on the scene (having either passed away or been divorced) when Isaac is born.
This is a great analysis. I never even thought about it like this... Thanks! peace
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Could you please tell me more about that? Like articles and verse numbers?
I always found it strange that the Quran mentions Ibrahim's wife, but never mentions her name, but it also could be that I overlooked it.Sure... The Qur'aan never mentions the name of Abraham's wife ("Sarah" in the Torah), even though it mentions her. And it never seems to refer to the Biblical "Hagar" at all, mentioned in Genesis 161-16 and Genesis 211-21... In Hebrew, the word "hagar" means stranger, and this may have been a title given to her (not her real name) in the Torah because she was a stranger among the Hebrews, originally being from Egypt. But again, the mother of Isaac is mentioned in the Qur'aan, but it never specifically refers to the mother of Ishmael. However, it DOES imply that Abraham may have had more than one wife, as Layth pointed out...
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Abraham's wife clearly says that she can't have children because she is old not because she has always been barren regardless of age. In fact, barren is no where mentioned in 1172 and simply "old" is mentioned. In 5129 old is mentioned first and sterile is mentioned in relation to old.
This is what I was thinking when I read the post. peace -
Salam,
Just to add my two cents worth...It seems from the Quran that Abraham was indeed married to two women. One who bore him Ismail, and, many years later, another who bore him Isaac.
The evidence for this can be found as follows
- When Abraham is raising the foundation of the Temple, he is helped by Ismail, who, to help in such task, must at least have been a young adult.
- When Abraham is visited in old age by the angels, and is given news of a son, he says his wife is barren and could not possibly have children (thus ruling her out from being Ismail's mother).
- The conversation of Abraham with the angels always refers to one wife (he never says "one of my wives is barren"...he simply says "my wife is barren" which means that the mother of Ismail is no longer on the scene (having either passed away or been divorced) when Isaac is born.
Please chose your sources carefully. The current Torah/Bible is pretty much the same as todays Hadith (i.e. full of lies and conjecture).
hmm I think you are right. However I would like to know the source.
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Peace belH, all,
to realign back to the title of this thread and belH accusation that Free-Minds.org is a Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.Can belH ever so kindly enlighten me as what he means by the word Sect (in detail) that he labels Free-Minds.org, Suni and Shia?
We can then move better forward, because I am really unsure what is the purpose of this thread now... )
Oh you are so simple the purpose of this thread is slandering and accusation and imaginations what else. elektro
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you still did not answer my question how would you go about enforcing the thief to work and repay what was stolen, especially if he needs to work to repay 50 billion dollar? Would you leash him so he will not run away, and what kind of job would make him earn 50 billion dollar?
I did not see this question being directed at me, but I'll answer nonetheless.
You would enforce God's law, which was also enforced by Joseph1274 He said, "What shall be the punishment, if you are liars?"
1275 They said, "The punishment is that the person who has it in his bag shall himself be held as penalty. It is such that we punish the doers of wrong."
1276 So he began with their bags before his brother's bag. Then he brought it (ie. the cup) out of his brother's bag. It was such that We planned for Joseph, for he would not have been able to take his brother under the King's system, except that God wished it so. We raise the degrees of whom We please, and over every one of knowledge is the All Knowledgeable.
538 The male thief, and the female thief, cut-off/cut their means/resources (plural - three or more) as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Noble, Wise.
Maybe you should answer my question DO PEOPLE HAVE THREE OR MORE HANDS? DOES THE VERSE MAKE SENSE IF WE TRANSLATE "AYDIYAHUMA" AS "THEIR THREE OR MORE HANDS?
Furthermore, did God create the universe with his three or more hands, or his might/resouces/power (5147)?
Were David, Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael resourceful or did they have many/three or more hands (3817; 3857)?
Why does God show us the punishment for theft put into action by Joseph if this is not what he wants us to do? Does God want to confuse us?
Where does it say that the punishment used by Jospeh is out-of-date/not for us to implement?
2171 The example of those who reject/are unappreciative is like the one who repeats what he has heard of calls and shouts; deaf, dumb, and blind; they do not use their reason and intellect.
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If I catch you again, giving your Sweet Words to the Christians and Jews whom join the Forum, by telling them that they are Moslems if they Follow their Books, then I will not have mercy, and I will expose your other side (as I could have done now, but I decided not to).
Now BelH doesn't even understand the meaning of the word "muslim"!
It goes from bad to worse.
http//www.radicalacademy.com/logiccritthinking.htm
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Peace belH
I am sorry I do not have much knowledge of the bible, but only what I have been told or seen on lectures. God willing I will read more to reseach for myself one day. Of what I have read I could not accept e.g. making partners to God. So I am inclined to accept that the Bible has been corrupted in one way or another. But as I say more knowledgable brothers have read it and studied it for many years and what I know of it is through them at present.
Peace
Hope
Yes the bible has been corrupted. But it does still say that there is only one God and you should not put anyone equal to God. Jesus even said "you can reject me, but do not reject the Father".
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Peace bros, sis, humans, and jinns )
i am sure that all the books the Quran refer to are hidden somewhere, in their pristine form, and in the way they were supposed to be revealed, either in the possession of humans or jinns, and one day, a generation of humans will have the luck, or misfortune, depending on where they stand, to see for themselves those revelations.
As an example, how come we have so very little access to the Dead Sea Scrolls which come from an area the majority of which is not even within the Israeli borders, and how on earth did they end up within Israel remit, who now claim there is not enough funds to study them all? ???
How about the huge collection of archives the Vatican collected hidden in their vaults?
The archives the family of Saud have in their possession?
The ones the Rabbis possess too that the Quran say they like making pieces of folded papers that they keep...
I trust Allah, it will come out... -
Peace Layth,
Salam,
Just to add my two cents worth...It seems from the Quran that Abraham was indeed married to two women. One who bore him Ismail, and, many years later, another who bore him Isaac.
The evidence for this can be found as follows
- When Abraham is raising the foundation of the Temple, he is helped by Ismail, who, to help in such task, must at least have been a young adult.
- When Abraham is visited in old age by the angels, and is given news of a son, he says his wife is barren and could not possibly have children (thus ruling her out from being Ismail's mother).
- The conversation of Abraham with the angels always refers to one wife (he never says "one of my wives is barren"...he simply says "my wife is barren" which means that the mother of Ismail is no longer on the scene (having either passed away or been divorced) when Isaac is born.
Please chose your sources carefully. The current Torah/Bible is pretty much the same as todays Hadith (i.e. full of lies and conjecture).
Yes, I do agree that we should choose our sources very carefully and efficiently when dealing with our religious belief. However, your conclusion may not be all inclusive i.e. you negated the option that could be derived from 1439.
1439 - Praise be to GOD for granting me, despite my old age, Ismail and Isaac. My Lord answers the prayers.
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Abraham had only one wife (one marriage) from which came both Ismail and Isaac
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Ismail was born while the wife was still fertile (say age 43). This age would be consistent with 1439
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Wife becomes barren after Ismail is born
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Abraham builds the foundation of shrine at about the age 55 with 12 years old Ismail
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Around age 55, Abraham and his wife gets the good news of Isaac. That?s when the God removed the infertility of Abrahams wife just like God parted the sea for Mosses and his people
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This proves that Ismail and Isaac had the same mother
I believe this explanation does not violate any Quranic verses nor does it leave any key options out. Please let me know if you find anything wrong with this idea. Thanks!
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Yes the bible has been corrupted. But it does still say that there is only one God and you should not put anyone equal to God. Jesus even said "you can reject me, but do not reject the Father".
Peace Rev.John
I haven't read much of the bible, but it is something I would like to do at some point. When reading it I will deffinitly be looking out for what you have stated as this is in line with the Quran. I also believe that Jesus would have said what you have quoted as this is also in line with the Quran. It will be nice for you to give us quotes from the Bible regarding particular issues or just generally. This will help with our education of the Bible God willing. As a side note which version of the Bibile do you read? Can it be downloaded on pdf?
Peace
Hope
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Peace all
It does not bother me either way if Abraham had Ismael and Isaac from the same wife or two different ones...
however I get very irritated when on the basis of believing either someone can be branded a believer or a non-believer,
that is mickey-mouse thinking at its most ridiculous, and maybe dangerous!
