Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.
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- The conversation of Abraham with the angels always refers to one wife (he never says "one of my wives is barren"...he simply says "my wife is barren" which means that the mother of Ismail is no longer on the scene (having either passed away or been divorced) when Isaac is born.
Peace,
His other wife was not in the scene because Abraham had Lift here and her Son, Ismail, in the Uncultivated Valley.1437
Our Lord, I have resided part of my progeny in an uncultivated valley near your Restricted House. My Lord, so that they may hold the bond. So let the hearts of the people incline towards them and give provisions to them of the fruits that they may give thanks.
The above verse confirms the Biblic story about Abraham leaving hajer and Ismail after Sarah requested him to do so.
I believe that God wants us to read the Bible and Torah in order to know about the Complete Quranic Stories, which are written very briefly, eccept for Yousuf story...And for us to know about the complete stories, we will need other sources...and these sources could be God's Books (Torah and Injeel) or Man made Books.
Peace
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1437
Our Lord, I have resided part of my progeny in an uncultivated valley near your Restricted House. My Lord, so that they may hold the bond. So let the hearts of the people incline towards them and give provisions to them of the fruits that they may give thanks.
I don't think this passage is talking about Ishmael. And if it is, it's implying that (1) Abraham had more than two sons, or (2) Ishmael also had descendants, and this was referring to Ishmael and his wife and children... Here's what a basic translation of the passage looks like
Our Lord, I have settled a part of my offspring in a valley unproductive of fruit near Your restricted/sacred house, our Lord, that they may keep up the salaat/bond/prayer. So, make the hearts of some people yearn towards them, and provide them with fruits; haply they may be grateful. (Q. 1437)
Now, in this passage, Abraham is specifically referring only to his offspring, which didn't include the Biblical character "Hagar". So, who is the "them" being referred to? Ishmael and who? If it is referring to him, it's most likely speaking of Ishmael and his descendants, and this wouldn't have anything to do with Hagar; she probably wasn't even there. This implies that Ishmael was an adult male when he separated from his father Abraham, he wasn't a small child who was cast out with his mother.
The idea that Abraham abandoned his wife and child in an uncultivated desert valley is horrendous, and there's nothing in the Qur'aan that says this. It's inconceivable that a prophet of God would do this. Therefore, in my opinion, this is more likely a passage referring to Ishmael and his offspring (which are also Abraham's progeny, his grandchildren), not to an infant Ishmael and his poor mother...
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I don't think this passage is talking about Ishmael. And if it is, it's implying that (1) Abraham had more than two sons, or (2) Ishmael also had descendants, and this was referring to Ishmael and his wife and children... Here's what a basic translation of the passage looks like
Our Lord, I have settled a part of my offspring in a valley unproductive of fruit near Your restricted/sacred house, our Lord, that they may keep up the salaat/bond/prayer. So, make the hearts of some people yearn towards them, and provide them with fruits; haply they may be grateful. (Q. 1437)
Now, in this passage, Abraham is specifically referring only to his offspring, which didn't include the Biblical character "Hagar". So, who is the "them" being referred to? Ishmael and who? If it is referring to him, it's most likely speaking of Ishmael and his descendants, and this wouldn't have anything to do with Hagar; she probably wasn't even there. This implies that Ishmael was an adult male when he separated from his father Abraham, he wasn't a small child who was cast out with his mother.
The idea that Abraham abandoned his wife and child in an uncultivated desert valley is horrendous, and there's nothing in the Qur'aan that says this. It's inconceivable that a prophet of God would do this. Therefore, in my opinion, this is more likely a passage referring to Ishmael and his offspring (which are also Abraham's progeny, his grandchildren), not to an infant Ishmael and his poor mother...
Peace Ahamad,
Are you advising me to reject The Torah Story?
Zuria can mean Son or daughter as well.
Peace -
Are you advising me to reject The Torah Story?
Zuria can mean Son or daughter as well.I'm just saying you should really look into the ideas presented in the Tanakh when it comes to biographies of the prophets. The Tanakh alleges that King David committed adultery with a married woman and then killed her husband. It alleges that King Solomon had hundreds of wives, and they led him into idolatry. It alleges that Noah was a public alcoholic, and he committed incest, impregnating his own daughters after the flood. And, on top of all this, it claims that Abraham abandoned his wife and infant child in the desert with no adequate supply of food or water, pretty much leaving them to die... You should study these texts carefully. Everything you read in the Tanakh is not necessarily true, and it doesn't always depict a true or positive image of the prophets of God.
And even though the passage could be mentioning a son or a daughter, the "offspring" is mentioned in the plural sense, meaning there was more that one descendant of Abraham there.
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I'm just saying you should really look into the ideas presented in the Tanakh when it comes to biographies of the prophets. The Tanakh alleges that King David committed adultery with a married woman and then killed her husband. It alleges that King Solomon had hundreds of wives, and they led him into idolatry. It alleges that Noah was a public alcoholic, and he committed incest, impregnating his own daughters after the flood. And, on top of all this, it claims that Abraham abandoned his wife and infant child in the desert with no adequate supply of food or water, pretty much leaving them to die... You should study these texts carefully. Everything you read in the Tanakh is not necessarily true, and it doesn't always depict a true or positive image of the prophets of God.
And even though the passage could be mentioning a son or a daughter, the "offspring" is mentioned in the plural sense, meaning there was more that one descendant of Abraham there.
Peace,
The Torah should not have any stories about Solomon or David, simply because their time was after the Torah; Moreover, The Crucifixion of Jesus should not be part of the Bible, because at that Time Jesus was raisin to God. We are only asked to believe in the Torah that were given to Moses and the Bible that was given to Jesus. And these are the Two books that God spoke about to Prophet Mohamed and ordered Him to believe in.Also, do not forget that God asked Abraham to do many hard to believe things, such as Sloughing His own Son and abandoning his wife and infant child in the desert with no adequate supply of food or water (which are confirmed by the Quran and Torah).
When reading the Other books, we only need to believe in what are confirmed by the Quran.
And even though the passage could be mentioning a son or a daughter, the "offspring" is mentioned in the plural sense, meaning there was more that one descendant of Abraham there.
What is the singular word for ""?
Peace
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Maybe you can teach us...please feel free to tell us the meaning.
I recommend studying every occurrence of the word in Al Quran. This study technique is simple, powerful, fruitful, but only for those who put in the time and effort
= Siin-Lam-Miim = safety/security/freedom/immunity, to escape, salutation/greeting/peace, deliver/acknowledge, pay in advance, submit, sincerity, humility, submission/conformance/obedience, resign/quit/relinquish, to be in sound condition, well without blemish, gentle/tender/soft/elegant. Solomon/Sulaiman.
salima vb. (1) pcple. act. 6843
salam n.m. 490, 491, 1628, 1687, 3929
salam n.m. 494, 516, 654, 6127, 746, 1010, 1025, 1148, 1169, 1324, 1423, 1546, 1552, 1632, 1915, 1933, 1947, 1962, 2047, 2169, 2563, 2575, 2759, 2855, 3344, 3658, 3779, 37109, 37120, 37130, 37181, 3973, 4389, 5034, 5125, 5125, 5626, 5626, 5691, 5923, 975
salim n.m. (adj) 2689, 3784
salm n.m. 861, 4735
silm n.com. 2208
sulayman n.prop. 2102, 2102, 4163, 684, 2178, 2179, 2181, 2715, 2716, 2717, 2718, 2730, 2736, 2744, 3412, 3830, 3834
sullam n.m. 635, 5238
sallama vb. (2)
perf. act. 2233, 843
impf. act. 465, 2427
impv. 2461, 3356
n.vb. 465, 3322, 3356
pcple. pass. f. 271, 492, 492aslama vb. (4)
perf. act. 2112, 2131, 320, 320, 320, 383, 4125, 544, 614, 2744, 37103, 4914, 4917, 7214
impf. act. 671, 1681, 3122, 4066, 4816
impv. 2131, 2234, 3954
n.vb. 319, 385, 53, 6125, 974, 3922, 4917, 617
pcple. act. 2128, 2128, 2132, 2133, 2136, 352, 364, 367, 380, 384, 3102, 5111, 6163, 7126, 1072, 1084, 1090, 1114, 12101, 152, 1689, 16102, 21108, 2278, 2731, 2738, 2742, 2781, 2791, 2853, 2946, 3053, 3335, 3335, 3912, 4133, 4369, 4615, 5136, 665, 6835, 7214istaslama vb. (10) pcple. act. 3726
LL, V4, p 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141
From http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
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I recommend studying every occurrence of the word in Al Quran. This study technique is simple, powerful, fruitful, but only for those who put in the time and effort
= Siin-Lam-Miim = safety/security/freedom/immunity, to escape, salutation/greeting/peace, deliver/acknowledge, pay in advance, submit, sincerity, humility, submission/conformance/obedience, resign/quit/relinquish, to be in sound condition, well without blemish, gentle/tender/soft/elegant. Solomon/Sulaiman.
Great defenition. bravo
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Peace,
I did not see this question being directed at me, but I'll answer nonetheless.
You would enforce God's law, which was also enforced by Joseph1274 He said, "What shall be the punishment, if you are liars?"
1275 They said, "The punishment is that the person who has it in his bag shall himself be held as penalty. It is such that we punish the doers of wrong."
1276 So he began with their bags before his brother's bag. Then he brought it (ie. the cup) out of his brother's bag. It was such that We planned for Joseph, for he would not have been able to take his brother under the King's system, except that God wished it so. We raise the degrees of whom We please, and over every one of knowledge is the All Knowledgeable.
538 The male thief, and the female thief, cut-off/cut their means/resources (plural - three or more) as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Noble, Wise.
Maybe you should answer my question DO PEOPLE HAVE THREE OR MORE HANDS? DOES THE VERSE MAKE SENSE IF WE TRANSLATE "AYDIYAHUMA" AS "THEIR THREE OR MORE HANDS?
Furthermore, did God create the universe with his three or more hands, or his might/resouces/power (5147)?
Were David, Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael resourceful or did they have many/three or more hands (3817; 3857)?
Why does God show us the punishment for theft put into action by Joseph if this is not what he wants us to do? Does God want to confuse us?
Where does it say that the punishment used by Jospeh is out-of-date/not for us to implement?
2171 The example of those who reject/are unappreciative is like the one who repeats what he has heard of calls and shouts; deaf, dumb, and blind; they do not use their reason and intellect.
1276 - He then started by inspecting their containers, before getting to his brother's container, and he extracted it out of his brother's container. We thus perfected the scheme for Joseph; he could not have kept his brother if he applied the king's law. But that was the will of GOD. We exalt whomever we choose to higher ranks. Above every knowledgeable one, there is one who is even more knowledgeable.
Let us analyze this verse to find what the God is trying to teach us. We will only analyze portions of this verse and draw conclusion. Our Lord, please help us find true meaning of this verse. Thank You!
We thus perfected the scheme for Joseph - From this we can deduce the following facts
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Joseph is a messenger of the God and that He is supporting Joseph?s plan to keep his brother with him.
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This plan is restricted to Joseph only because the verse clearly says ?We thus perfected the scheme for Joseph?.
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This scheme is not to be taken as a general law of God to mankind (believers)
We thus perfected the scheme for Joseph; he could not have kept his brother if he applied the king's law- From this we can deduce the following facts
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Although Joseph has been established as a messenger of God, he is still within the jurisdiction of King?s system (law) which is not the God?s system
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King?s law does not allow for holding a person against his will
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Therefore, Joseph could not apply this king?s law to hold his brother
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Another king?s law allows for holding a person for committing a crime within king?s jurisdiction
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Joseph knew his half brothers will not allow his brother to stay in Egypt per the promise they made with their father. Therefore, he utilized the king?s steal law (NOT GOD?S LAW) to hold his brother
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And king?s steal law is "The punishment, if it is found in his bag, is that the thief belongs to you. We thus punish the guilty (1275)." THIS IS NOT THE GOD?s LAW. Keep in mind the verse said ?They said? which does not mean that they are speaking of God's law
Conclusion 538 is God?s law and 1275 is a manmade law. Therefore, we cannot equate 538 with 1275.
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Peace,
1276 - He then started by inspecting their containers, before getting to his brother's container, and he extracted it out of his brother's container. We thus perfected the scheme for Joseph; he could not have kept his brother if he applied the king's law. But that was the will of GOD. We exalt whomever we choose to higher ranks. Above every knowledgeable one, there is one who is even more knowledgeable.
Let us analyze this verse to find what the God is trying to teach us. We will only analyze portions of this verse and draw conclusion. Our Lord, please help us find true meaning of this verse. Thank You!
We thus perfected the scheme for Joseph - From this we can deduce the following facts
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Joseph is a messenger of the God and that He is supporting Joseph?s plan to keep his brother with him.
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This plan is restricted to Joseph only because the verse clearly says ?We thus perfected the scheme for Joseph?.
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This scheme is not to be taken as a general law of God to mankind (believers)
We thus perfected the scheme for Joseph; he could not have kept his brother if he applied the king's law- From this we can deduce the following facts
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Although Joseph has been established as a messenger of God, he is still within the jurisdiction of King?s system (law) which is not the God?s system
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King?s law does not allow for holding a person against his will
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Therefore, Joseph could not apply this king?s law to hold his brother
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Another king?s law allows for holding a person for committing a crime within king?s jurisdiction
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Joseph knew his half brothers will not allow his brother to stay in Egypt per the promise they made with their father. Therefore, he utilized the king?s steal law (NOT GOD?S LAW) to hold his brother
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And king?s steal law is "The punishment, if it is found in his bag, is that the thief belongs to you. We thus punish the guilty (1275)." THIS IS NOT THE GOD?s LAW. Keep in mind the verse said ?They said? which does not mean that they are speaking of God's law
Conclusion 538 is God?s law and 1275 is a manmade law. Therefore, we cannot equate 538 with 1275.
I'm not one to use emoticons often but I simply must in this case...
rotfl rotfl rotflI recommend
http//www.radicalacademy.com/logiccritthinking.htm -
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We thus perfected the scheme for Joseph; he could not have kept his brother if he applied the king's law- From this we can deduce the following facts
(emphasis mine)
Let's try it with context
1276 - ...But that was the will of GOD. We exalt whomever we choose to higher ranks. Above every knowledgeable one, there is one who is even more knowledgeable.
There is also 1231 and 1250. Obviously, these women didn't sever their own hands. 1256 says that joseph was given authority/makana in the land. Now what does this authority entail?
2241
Those whom if We allow them authority (same word - makana) in the land, they hold the bond (salat), and they contribute towards betterment (zakat), and deter from evil (munkar). And to God is the conclusion of all matters.
He is clearly living under the God's law.
2455
God promises those among you who believe and do good works, that He will make them successors on earth, as He made successors of those before them, and He will enable/m-k-n for them their system which He has approved for them, and He will substitute security for them in place of fear, that they serve/ibada Me and do not associate anything with Me. And as for those who reject after that, they are the wicked.
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Peace,
I'm not one to use emoticons often but I simply must in this case...
rotfl rotfl rotflI recommend
http//www.radicalacademy.com/logiccritthinking.htmPlease make your point, that is, if you have any. And summarize the content of your link and how it relates to the discussion at hand. This way we can evaluate your understanding of the information you want us to read as well as your ability to relate it to current discussion. Just providing a link is very unproductive and adds no value.
1781 - Proclaim, "The truth has prevailed, and falsehood has vanished; falsehood will inevitably vanish."
88 - For He has decreed that the truth shall prevail, and the falsehood shall vanish, in spite of the evildoers.
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Peace,
. Just providing a link is very unproductive and adds no value.
Excellent Observation.
Hadithis befool by referring to Hadiths
Some befool by referring to inscriptions
Some befool by referring www.blablabla.com
Some befool by referring to code 19What is the difference then ??????????????????
All of them have same modus operandi.
Regards -
Excellent Observation.
Hadithis befool by referring to Hadiths
Some befool by referring to inscriptions
Some befool by referring www.blablabla.com
Some befool by referring to code 19What is the difference then ??????????????????
All of them have same modus operandi.
Regardsyou always forget the last one
Some befool by referring to authorities
and the difference is none, .....
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Peace,
(emphasis mine)
Let's try it with context
There is also 1231 and 1250. Obviously, these women didn't sever their own hands. 1256 says that joseph was given authority/makana in the land. Now what does this authority entail?
2241
Those whom if We allow them authority (same word - makana) in the land, they hold the bond (salat), and they contribute towards betterment (zakat), and deter from evil (munkar). And to God is the conclusion of all matters.
He is clearly living under the God's law.
2455
God promises those among you who believe and do good works, that He will make them successors on earth, as He made successors of those before them, and He will enable/m-k-n for them their system which He has approved for them, and He will substitute security for them in place of fear, that they serve/ibada Me and do not associate anything with Me. And as for those who reject after that, they are the wicked.
We will cite verses 1256 and 1276 next to each other and draw conclusion.
1256 - We thus established Joseph on earth, ruling as he wished. We shower our mercy upon whomever we will, and we never fail to recompense the righteous.
1276 - He then started by inspecting their containers, before getting to his brother's container, and he extracted it out of his brother's container. We thus perfected the scheme for Joseph; he could not have kept his brother if he applied the king's law. But that was the will of GOD. We exalt whomever we choose to higher ranks. Above every knowledgeable one, there is one who is even more knowledgeable.
Conclusion The Quran is very easy to understand. Therefore, the easy understanding of the above two verses is that Joseph was not the king or the ruler when the incident of 1276 took place. Joseph was still working for the king of Egypt. He had not established the God?s system on earth yet.
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I recommend studying every occurrence of the word in Al Quran. This study technique is simple, powerful, fruitful, but only for those who put in the time and effort
= Siin-Lam-Miim = safety/security/freedom/immunity, to escape, salutation/greeting/peace, deliver/acknowledge, pay in advance, submit, sincerity, humility, submission/conformance/obedience, resign/quit/relinquish, to be in sound condition, well without blemish, gentle/tender/soft/elegant. Solomon/Sulaiman.
Peace all,
I do not see in your post what "defines a Moslem" according to The Lord of Quran?
Let me propose a Definition
Islam is the minimum requirement that a Male or Female has to meet in order to Enter into God's Mercy.
To be in the state of Islam Today--To Be a Moslem--ones have to Submit to the "True Laws of God" that are Written in the Quran, Torah and/or Injeel.
Now, if ones want to upgrade their Rank from Moslems to Believers, Then He or She will struggle to Deliver the True Laws of God to the people and Confront the Man Made laws that are being associated to God.
If you disagree, then let us know why?
Peace
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If you disagree, then let us know why?
Of course I disagree. Can you cite any verse in the entire Quran that says believing in the Quran or a previous revelation is necessary for one to be "muslim"?
The fact that you are capitalising the word isn't a good start.
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Of course I disagree. Can you cite any verse in the entire Quran that says believing in the Quran or a previous revelation is necessary for one to be "muslim"?
The fact that you are capitalising the word isn't a good start.
First, did I say Believing or Submitting?
second, can you tell us about your Definition of "Moslem"? -
Salam Guest,
Yes, I do agree that we should choose our sources very carefully and efficiently when dealing with our religious belief. However, your conclusion may not be all inclusive i.e. you negated the option that could be derived from 1439.
1439 - Praise be to GOD for granting me, despite my old age, Ismail and Isaac. My Lord answers the prayers.
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Abraham had only one wife (one marriage) from which came both Ismail and Isaac
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Ismail was born while the wife was still fertile (say age 43). This age would be consistent with 1439
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Wife becomes barren after Ismail is born
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Abraham builds the foundation of shrine at about the age 55 with 12 years old Ismail
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Around age 55, Abraham and his wife gets the good news of Isaac. That?s when the God removed the infertility of Abrahams wife just like God parted the sea for Mosses and his people
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This proves that Ismail and Isaac had the same mother
I believe this explanation does not violate any Quranic verses nor does it leave any key options out. Please let me know if you find anything wrong with this idea. Thanks!
I have looked at this more closely and cannot agree that Ismail and Isaac were born of the same mother.
Verse 1439 is a prayer of thanks being made by Abraham (if you start from 1435 you will note he refers to a plural of sons - which means Isaac has already been born). The prayer Abraham makes is giving thanks that, while he has reached old age, he has been blessed by God with Ismail and Isaac. Such understanding is further supported by 1554 where Abraham, upon being approached by the angels, is suprized that he could have a son (Isaac) and replies that 'old age has just come upon him - masani alkibar' (i.e. before this he was not in 'old age', which means Ismail was born to him while he was either young or middle aged).
More importantly, on the issue of why Ismail and Isaac could not be of the same mother, the mention of Abraham's wife that she is 'infertile' (Aqeem) is the main reason. While Ayman tries to argue that the infertility is caused by her being in old age, this is an erronous statement/observation since the word "aqeem" is applied to both men and women (4250) and is a condition of being unable to have children regardless of age (the word which is used to describe women who have become barren is "Aqir" which Zakaria used when speaking about his wife).
So, what we have with Abraham when he was given news of Isaac is denial because
- Abraham was incapable/too old;
- Abraham's wife was incapable/too old;
- Abraham's wife was infertile;
So I cannot agree that Ismail and Isaac were direct brothers (they were step-brothers).
Reggards,
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Peace Layth,
Salam Guest,
I have looked at this more closely and cannot agree that Ismail and Isaac were born of the same mother.
Verse 1439 is a prayer of thanks being made by Abraham (if you start from 1435 you will note he refers to a plural of sons - which means Isaac has already been born). The prayer Abraham makes is giving thanks that, while he has reached old age, he has been blessed by God with Ismail and Isaac. Such understanding is further supported by 1554 where Abraham, upon being approached by the angels, is suprized that he could have a son (Isaac) and replies that 'old age has just come upon him - masani alkibar' (i.e. before this he was not in 'old age', which means Ismail was born to him while he was either young or middle aged).
More importantly, on the issue of why Ismail and Isaac could not be of the same mother, the mention of Abraham's wife that she is 'infertile' (Aqeem) is the main reason. While Ayman tries to argue that the infertility is caused by her being in old age, this is an erronous statement/observation since the word "aqeem" is applied to both men and women (4250) and is a condition of being unable to have children regardless of age (the word which is used to describe women who have become barren is "Aqir" which Zakaria used when speaking about his wife).
So, what we have with Abraham when he was given news of Isaac is denial because
- Abraham was incapable/too old;
- Abraham's wife was incapable/too old;
- Abraham's wife was infertile;
So I cannot agree that Ismail and Isaac were direct brothers (they were step-brothers).
Reggards,
Quote from Layth ?Verse 1439 is a prayer of thanks being made by Abraham (if you start from 1435 you will note he refers to a plural of sons - which means Isaac has already been born).?
Yes, I agree. When Abraham made this prayer not only Isaac was born, he grew up, Ismail is married with children, they became righteous, and so on. Abraham is recalling his past in his old age and thanking the God. This does not invalidate my logic rather it supports my logic and claim. The verse 1439 stands on its own. It is not dependent on any other verse or conditions. Abraham got two sons in his old age period. He said it and the God testifies to it (1439). And your statement ??.which means Ismail was born to him while he was either young or middle aged)? contradicts the God?s testimony in 1439.
If I apply your logic ?The conversation of Abraham with the angels always refers to one wife?? to my understanding, we get same mom for both Ismail and Isaac.
