Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.

guest

Peace,

I'm not one to use emoticons often but I simply must in this case...
rotfl rotfl rotfl

I recommend
http//www.radicalacademy.com/logiccritthinking.htm

Please make your point, that is, if you have any. And summarize the content of your link and how it relates to the discussion at hand. This way we can evaluate your understanding of the information you want us to read as well as your ability to relate it to current discussion. Just providing a link is very unproductive and adds no value.

1781 - Proclaim, "The truth has prevailed, and falsehood has vanished; falsehood will inevitably vanish."

88 - For He has decreed that the truth shall prevail, and the falsehood shall vanish, in spite of the evildoers.

Q_student

Peace,

. Just providing a link is very unproductive and adds no value.

Excellent Observation.
Hadithis befool by referring to Hadiths
Some befool by referring to inscriptions
Some befool by referring www.blablabla.com
Some befool by referring to code 19

What is the difference then ??????????????????

All of them have same modus operandi.
Regards

unknownuser

Excellent Observation.
Hadithis befool by referring to Hadiths
Some befool by referring to inscriptions
Some befool by referring www.blablabla.com
Some befool by referring to code 19

What is the difference then ??????????????????

All of them have same modus operandi.
Regards

you always forget the last one

Some befool by referring to authorities

and the difference is none, .....

guest

Peace,

(emphasis mine)

Let's try it with context

There is also 1231 and 1250. Obviously, these women didn't sever their own hands. 1256 says that joseph was given authority/makana in the land. Now what does this authority entail?

2241

Those whom if We allow them authority (same word - makana) in the land, they hold the bond (salat), and they contribute towards betterment (zakat), and deter from evil (munkar). And to God is the conclusion of all matters.

He is clearly living under the God's law.

2455

God promises those among you who believe and do good works, that He will make them successors on earth, as He made successors of those before them, and He will enable/m-k-n for them their system which He has approved for them, and He will substitute security for them in place of fear, that they serve/ibada Me and do not associate anything with Me. And as for those who reject after that, they are the wicked.

We will cite verses 1256 and 1276 next to each other and draw conclusion.

1256 - We thus established Joseph on earth, ruling as he wished. We shower our mercy upon whomever we will, and we never fail to recompense the righteous.

1276 - He then started by inspecting their containers, before getting to his brother's container, and he extracted it out of his brother's container. We thus perfected the scheme for Joseph; he could not have kept his brother if he applied the king's law. But that was the will of GOD. We exalt whomever we choose to higher ranks. Above every knowledgeable one, there is one who is even more knowledgeable.

Conclusion The Quran is very easy to understand. Therefore, the easy understanding of the above two verses is that Joseph was not the king or the ruler when the incident of 1276 took place. Joseph was still working for the king of Egypt. He had not established the God?s system on earth yet.

belH

I recommend studying every occurrence of the word in Al Quran. This study technique is simple, powerful, fruitful, but only for those who put in the time and effort

= Siin-Lam-Miim = safety/security/freedom/immunity, to escape, salutation/greeting/peace, deliver/acknowledge, pay in advance, submit, sincerity, humility, submission/conformance/obedience, resign/quit/relinquish, to be in sound condition, well without blemish, gentle/tender/soft/elegant. Solomon/Sulaiman.

Peace all,

I do not see in your post what "defines a Moslem" according to The Lord of Quran?

Let me propose a Definition

Islam is the minimum requirement that a Male or Female has to meet in order to Enter into God's Mercy.

To be in the state of Islam Today--To Be a Moslem--ones have to Submit to the "True Laws of God" that are Written in the Quran, Torah and/or Injeel.

Now, if ones want to upgrade their Rank from Moslems to Believers, Then He or She will struggle to Deliver the True Laws of God to the people and Confront the Man Made laws that are being associated to God.

If you disagree, then let us know why?

Peace

Wakas

If you disagree, then let us know why?

Of course I disagree. Can you cite any verse in the entire Quran that says believing in the Quran or a previous revelation is necessary for one to be "muslim"?

The fact that you are capitalising the word isn't a good start.

belH

Of course I disagree. Can you cite any verse in the entire Quran that says believing in the Quran or a previous revelation is necessary for one to be "muslim"?

The fact that you are capitalising the word isn't a good start.

First, did I say Believing or Submitting?
second, can you tell us about your Definition of "Moslem"?

Layth

Salam Guest,

Yes, I do agree that we should choose our sources very carefully and efficiently when dealing with our religious belief. However, your conclusion may not be all inclusive i.e. you negated the option that could be derived from 1439.

1439 - Praise be to GOD for granting me, despite my old age, Ismail and Isaac. My Lord answers the prayers.

Abraham had only one wife (one marriage) from which came both Ismail and Isaac
Ismail was born while the wife was still fertile (say age 43). This age would be consistent with 1439
Wife becomes barren after Ismail is born
Abraham builds the foundation of shrine at about the age 55 with 12 years old Ismail
Around age 55, Abraham and his wife gets the good news of Isaac. That?s when the God removed the infertility of Abrahams wife just like God parted the sea for Mosses and his people
This proves that Ismail and Isaac had the same mother

I believe this explanation does not violate any Quranic verses nor does it leave any key options out. Please let me know if you find anything wrong with this idea. Thanks!

I have looked at this more closely and cannot agree that Ismail and Isaac were born of the same mother.

Verse 1439 is a prayer of thanks being made by Abraham (if you start from 1435 you will note he refers to a plural of sons - which means Isaac has already been born). The prayer Abraham makes is giving thanks that, while he has reached old age, he has been blessed by God with Ismail and Isaac. Such understanding is further supported by 1554 where Abraham, upon being approached by the angels, is suprized that he could have a son (Isaac) and replies that 'old age has just come upon him - masani alkibar' (i.e. before this he was not in 'old age', which means Ismail was born to him while he was either young or middle aged).

More importantly, on the issue of why Ismail and Isaac could not be of the same mother, the mention of Abraham's wife that she is 'infertile' (Aqeem) is the main reason. While Ayman tries to argue that the infertility is caused by her being in old age, this is an erronous statement/observation since the word "aqeem" is applied to both men and women (4250) and is a condition of being unable to have children regardless of age (the word which is used to describe women who have become barren is "Aqir" which Zakaria used when speaking about his wife).

So, what we have with Abraham when he was given news of Isaac is denial because

Abraham was incapable/too old;
Abraham's wife was incapable/too old;
Abraham's wife was infertile;

So I cannot agree that Ismail and Isaac were direct brothers (they were step-brothers).

Reggards,

guest

Peace Layth,

Salam Guest,

I have looked at this more closely and cannot agree that Ismail and Isaac were born of the same mother.

Verse 1439 is a prayer of thanks being made by Abraham (if you start from 1435 you will note he refers to a plural of sons - which means Isaac has already been born). The prayer Abraham makes is giving thanks that, while he has reached old age, he has been blessed by God with Ismail and Isaac. Such understanding is further supported by 1554 where Abraham, upon being approached by the angels, is suprized that he could have a son (Isaac) and replies that 'old age has just come upon him - masani alkibar' (i.e. before this he was not in 'old age', which means Ismail was born to him while he was either young or middle aged).

More importantly, on the issue of why Ismail and Isaac could not be of the same mother, the mention of Abraham's wife that she is 'infertile' (Aqeem) is the main reason. While Ayman tries to argue that the infertility is caused by her being in old age, this is an erronous statement/observation since the word "aqeem" is applied to both men and women (4250) and is a condition of being unable to have children regardless of age (the word which is used to describe women who have become barren is "Aqir" which Zakaria used when speaking about his wife).

So, what we have with Abraham when he was given news of Isaac is denial because

Abraham was incapable/too old;
Abraham's wife was incapable/too old;
Abraham's wife was infertile;

So I cannot agree that Ismail and Isaac were direct brothers (they were step-brothers).

Reggards,

Quote from Layth ?Verse 1439 is a prayer of thanks being made by Abraham (if you start from 1435 you will note he refers to a plural of sons - which means Isaac has already been born).?

Yes, I agree. When Abraham made this prayer not only Isaac was born, he grew up, Ismail is married with children, they became righteous, and so on. Abraham is recalling his past in his old age and thanking the God. This does not invalidate my logic rather it supports my logic and claim. The verse 1439 stands on its own. It is not dependent on any other verse or conditions. Abraham got two sons in his old age period. He said it and the God testifies to it (1439). And your statement ??.which means Ismail was born to him while he was either young or middle aged)? contradicts the God?s testimony in 1439.

If I apply your logic ?The conversation of Abraham with the angels always refers to one wife?? to my understanding, we get same mom for both Ismail and Isaac.

Ahmad_Bilal

The Torah should not have any stories about Solomon or David, simply because their time was after the Torah; Moreover, The Crucifixion of Jesus should not be part of the Bible, because at that Time Jesus was raisin to God. We are only asked to believe in the Torah that were given to Moses and the Bible that was given to Jesus. And these are the Two books that God spoke about to Prophet Mohamed and ordered Him to believe in.

Also, do not forget that God asked Abraham to do many hard to believe things, such as Sloughing His own Son and abandoning his wife and infant child in the desert with no adequate supply of food or water (which are confirmed by the Quran and Torah).

When reading the Other books, we only need to believe in what are confirmed by the Quran.

I agree, to an extent. But at the same time, I don't think God necessarily told Abraham to slaughter his son. This has been researched already too.

http//www.quran-islam.org/articles/abrahams_sacrifice_(P1164).html

It just seems, at least to me, unthinkable that God would give Abraham a command to kill his son or to abandon his wife and infant child in the desert with no adequate supply of food or water. It just doesn't seem compatible with God's attributes mentioned in the scripture.

What is the singular word for ""?

I think "zurriyah" can be used as a singular or plural in some cases. This passage, though, says "zurriyaat", which implies plurality. Then, it goes on to repeatedly mention "them", another plural, showing that it's referring to more than one person. Since these are referred to as Abraham's "zurriya", this could only apply to Hagar if she was also a descendant of Abraham, which she wasn't (according to the Torah). Therefore, this passage must either be implying that Abraham sent more than one child to this deserted area, or it's implying that Ishmael had children that he took with him to this remote area. And based on the fact that the scriptures only refer to Abraham as having 2 children (sons), the latter seems more likely.

Layth

Salam Guest,

You seemed to have ignored my reference to 1554 which established that Abraham had just reached "old age" when he was given news of Isaac.
The wording in 1439 makes clear that Abraham never links the birth of his two sons with his old age (which you are alluding to). Had Ismail and Isaac both been born while he was in old age (which contradicts 1554 anyway), the wording would have been "fil alkibar" and not the wording that the Quran used "ala alkibar".

Regards,

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

belH,

Did God create the universe with his three or more hands, or his might/resouces/power (5147)?

Were David, Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael resourceful or did they have multiple hands (3817; 3857)?

Why does God show us the punishment for theft put into action by Joseph if this is not what he wants us to do? Does God want to confuse us? Is He telling us this story for fun?

Where does it say that the punishment used by Jospeh is out-of-date/not for us to implement as you have conjectured?

The two thieves, male and Female, Have Four Hands (which is more than three hands)

538 The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut-off/cut their means/resources as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Noble, Wise.

Nice try, belal. I knew that you would come up with this arguement. It clearly states "THE male thief" and "THE female thief" emphasizing not only that the punishment is for both males or females, but that one should cut/cut-off their multiple resources, and not their respective three or more hands.

Furthermore you are punishing one person at a time. Mentioning male and female shows that we are to punish both sexes the same way/treat them equally. Since you punish one person at a time, how can you cut their three or more hands?

This verse would not really make much sense if we use your logic, since you are advocating to cut off both hands of the thief. The punishment however happens for each person at a time/seperately - how then can you cut off the three or more hands of such a thief?

Also, does the verse that follows make sense if we use your logic?

539 Whoever repents after his wrongdoing and reforms, then God will accept his repentance. God is Forgiving, Compassionate.

How nice! With no more hands left!

728 When they commit evil acts, they say, "We found our fathers doing such, and God ordered us to it." Say, "God does not order evil! Do you say about God what you do not know?"

729 Say, "My Lord orders justice, and that you be devoted at every institution of obeisance/submission (masjid), and that you call on Him, while being faithful to Him in the system; as He initiated you, so you will return."

Abdun_Nur

Salaam,

if you'd like to read my view,

http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/72/102/

Q_student

belH,

538 The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut-off/cut their means/resources as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Noble, Wise.

It is not deterence rather examplary recompense for what they have done.
Deterence is before committment of the crime. Once crime is comitted it is PUNISHMENT not deterence.
Only 19ers and Khalafites can think to "prevent" the crime AFTER it has been Committed.
What a unique prevention.
Regards

belH

538 The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut-off/cut their means/resources as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Noble, Wise.

I will ask the Question again, I hope you can see it this time

how would you go about enforcing the thief to work and repay what was stolen, especially if he needs to work to repay 50 billion dollar?

In your answer, did you mean Jail Him, or did you mean take him into slavery? Furthermore, what Kind of Job would make the Thief earn 50 Billion Dollar, as in Medoff Case.

By the way, non in this thread, whom have been arguing against my understanding were able to answer the question...If you are not able to answer, then admit that your proposed punishment is unrealistic.

Peace

hope4

I will ask the Question again, I hope you can see it this time

how would you go about enforcing the thief to work and repay what was stolen, especially if he needs to work to repay 50 billion dollar?

In your answer, did you mean Jail Him, or did you mean take him into slavery? Furthermore, what Kind of Job would make the Thief earn 50 Billion Dollar, as in Medoff Case.

By the way, non in this thread, whom have been arguing against my understanding were able to answer the question...If you are not able to answer, then then admit that your proposed punishment is unrealistic.

Peace

WOW! How will someone steal 50 billion dolars? Would not be able to carry it let alone steal it. However, will cutting his hand off get back the 50 billion dollars. With 50 billion dollars I am sure he can buy a bionic hand

Peace

Hope

belH

Peace

WOW! How will someone steal 50 billion dolars? Would not be able to carry it let alone steal it. However, will cutting his hand off get back the 50 billion dollars. With 50 billion dollars I am sure he can buy a bionic hand

Peace

Hope

Peace

This is a true story

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Madoff

Jack

By the way, non in this thread, whom have been arguing against my understanding were able to answer the question...

Peace

You don't answer the questions of others, yet we are expected to answer all your queries. Yeah, that's fair. )

belH

You don't answer the questions of others, yet we are expected to answer all your queries. Yeah, that's fair. )

Peace,
Maybe I overlooked some questions due to the overwhelming replies and questions that I had to answer.

well, I will be glad to answer if you have any.

Peace

belH

Salaam,

if you'd like to read my view,

http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/72/102/

Peace,

what is your understanding of 5-33?

Progressive Muslims
533 The recompense of those who fight God and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they will be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is a disgrace for them in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution.
533

Peace