Were Islamic Empires peaceful?
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As for Ataturk, he may have had good intentions for Turkey, and its true that he was a superb general. However, some of his policies in my opinion bordered on the extreme. The intense nationalism he played a part in creating has brought a modicum of stability to Turkey but has also played a large role in suppressing the rights of their large Kurdish communities.
Unfortunately, Turks are the most nationalistic people in the world, even more so than the Iranians or the Chinese (who are also extremely nationalistic). "Turkishness" has replaced religion for some people, sad but true. I find nationalism such a Satanic ideology brickwall
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Unfortunately, Turks are the most nationalistic people in the world, even more so than the Iranians or the Chinese (who are also extremely nationalistic). "Turkishness" has replaced religion for some people, sad but true. I find nationalism such a Satanic ideology brickwall
It is a political move. (you know. Like communism).
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Peace everyone,
Were Islamic Empires peaceful?
The question can answer itself once we translate the word "islamic". The word "salam/" means "peace" and the derivative form "islam/" (weight ل means "peacemaking". Thus the question can be translated as
Were peacemaking Empires peaceful?
Of course the question becomes self-answering as YES. Unfortunately, the so-called Islamic empires were agressive and took the term Islamic as a meaningless label just like a thief who calls himself "Honest Joe".
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace everyone,
Were Islamic Empires peaceful?
The question can answer itself once we translate the word "islamic". The word "salam/" means "peace" and the derivative form "islam/" (weight ل means "peacemaking". Thus the question can be translated as
Were peacemaking Empires peaceful?
Of course the question becomes self-answering as YES. Unfortunately, the so-called Islamic empires were agressive and took the term Islamic as a meaningless label just like a thief who calls himself "Honest Joe".
Peace,
Ayman
Interesting.
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Peace everyone,
Were Islamic Empires peaceful?
The question can answer itself once we translate the word "islamic". The word "salam/" means "peace" and the derivative form "islam/" (weight ل means "peacemaking". Thus the question can be translated as
Were peacemaking Empires peaceful?
Of course the question becomes self-answering as YES. Unfortunately, the so-called Islamic empires were agressive and took the term Islamic as a meaningless label just like a thief who calls himself "Honest Joe".
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman
Well put. I don't believe they were peaceful but looked to extend an empire for tax purposes, money greed etc.
Peace
Hope
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Peace,
I think the consensus here is that the former "Islamic Empires" were merely Empires like any other empire in history with the same expansionist, brutal, and greedy tendencies as any other.
The only difference being that the rulers happened to identify as Muslims. And as we all know, identifying as a Muslim does not imply that you will act like a Muslim.
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Peace,
Progressive, the poster "TheIndian" did not make this claim. Instead he claimed that Turkish culture has been influenced by certain elements of Alevi thinking.
As for Ataturk, he may have had good intentions for Turkey, and its true that he was a superb general. However, some of his policies in my opinion bordered on the extreme. The intense nationalism he played a part in creating has brought a modicum of stability to Turkey but has also played a large role in suppressing the rights of their large Kurdish communities.
Peace.
Can you give some examples of how Alevi thinking has influenced Turkish culture? (I'm curious).I agree, I think he had good intentions. I remember reading that he said that people going to dead people's (I think specifically religious people's) graves and praying to them was not something a civilized nation would do, so that's why he said they shouldn't do it ... not for the obvious reason that it's shirk. So much of his reasoning/motivation was to have Turkey become more European and more "civilized". That's as far as I can understand from his biography...
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Recluse, what is your problem?
I understand from Quran that we should investigate things and have knowledge before making certain verdicts. In different topics you are making negatively biased verdicts and accusitions with no research. If you want to say something say it directly.
I'm so angry about this sick attitude. You throw the mud with no evidence, then accuse people with nationalism.
This is wrong, this is biased, this is evil.
I strongly protest.
(I also reported the entry above to moderators.)
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Peace,
Can you give some examples of how Alevi thinking has influenced Turkish culture? (I'm curious). Smiley
To be honest, I'm not familiar with the matter, it was a claim that TheIndian made.
But I've been to other countries where a country confesses to be Sunni but the influence of other Islamic traditions is visibly apparent. For example, in Egypt virtually every Muslim identifies as Sunni, but nonetheless you can see Fatimid and proto-Shia influences on many of their traditions. For example, Masjid Hussein (where it is reported that Imam Husseins head is buried) is a very popular masjid in Egypt, while shrines for various members of the Prophets family are visited by pious Egyptians everyday. This is on top of the huge Sufi festivals that occur throughout Egypt. I've actually witnessed Sufi's doing their "dance routines" in a few Egyptian masjids.
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Just rubbish baseless propoganda!
bravo
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I think so too, although I'm against Kemalism.
Selam
You maybe against Kemalism, thats ok, not everyone has to agree with it, and yes I believe some people have taken this nationalistic pride too far. However, you must understand that Attaturk had numerous enemies. I believe he rejected sunni Islam because of the rediculous hadiths and hearsays of the time. He challenged the fundementals of the Imam belief's of the time e.g. women not being able to work, not having rights etc... He seperated religion from government. I bet he was a Quranist ;D
Peace
Hope
Hope
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Some people here are wondering why I made the comment about Turkish Islam being strongly influenced by Alevism.
The reason is this Turkish Islam was heavily influenced by Turkomen Babas from Khorasan. In modern Turkey, even though the majority of the people identify their Islam as Sunni (and the reason for this is the legacy of the Ottoman Caliphate more than anything else) during Ashura they will mourn Imam Hussayn and his sacrifice at Karbala. This more than anything recalls very old Shia fundamentals. The Turks also ascribe less importance to congregational mosque worship than others, and have more of a belief in saints, visiting gravesites for 'pilgrimage' (a la Alevi). Regarding the Ottoman Empire, this Empire set itself in opposition to the Shia Safavids of Iran, and for this reason proclaimed its own propaganda as heralding the cause of Sunni Islam. However many holders of high office in the Ottomans were members of Alevi-style sufi sects, and the military strength of the Ottomans was purely Alevi/Bektashi.
I learned about Islamic history at SOAS, and still have a lot of information and sources about Turkish Islam and its affinity to Alevism in its unique character. Turkish Islam is a very different kind of thing in practise from what we know as Sunni Islam today. If anyone wants more info or to discuss this topic in more depth, that's fine. However I'm not going further into the Kemalist Nationalist vs Ottoman debate as that will lead nowhere.
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Some people here are wondering why I made the comment about Turkish Islam being strongly influenced by Alevism.
The reason is this Turkish Islam was heavily influenced by Turkomen Babas from Khorasan. In modern Turkey, even though the majority of the people identify their Islam as Sunni (and the reason for this is the legacy of the Ottoman Caliphate more than anything else) during Ashura they will mourn Imam Hussayn and his sacrifice at Karbala. This more than anything recalls very old Shia fundamentals. The Turks also ascribe less importance to congregational mosque worship than others, and have more of a belief in saints, visiting gravesites for 'pilgrimage' (a la Alevi).
There are 15-20% Alevis in Turkey and also quite a few Sufis (many of them being Bektashias, who are related to the Alevis), so visiting "saints'" graves and other things you mentioned is very likely to be happening. Furthermore, Turkey is a secular republic and many people don't attend the Friday congragational prayer very frequently.
Regarding the Ottoman Empire, this Empire set itself in opposition to the Shia Safavids of Iran, and for this reason proclaimed its own propaganda as heralding the cause of Sunni Islam. However many holders of high office in the Ottomans were members of Alevi-style sufi sects, and the military strength of the Ottomans was purely Alevi/Bektashi.
You seem to be not very familiar with history, or at least Ottoman/Turkish history. The Ottomans had Janissaires (the Sultan's elite troop made up of converts) - since they were converts, they werent very strict when it came to religion so they became Bekstashi Sufis (related to Alevis). These were the Janissaries, not the actual/main army. The high government positions were held by Sunnis and also people who were recruited from the Ottoman "millet system", where young Christians boys were converted to Islam and got raised in an "Islamic" way. They then either became Viziers or part of the Janissary corps. Local rulers, especially towards the end of the Ottoman Empire were locals, such as Arabs. However, the majority of government officials were Sunnis/Turks.
I learned about Islamic history at SOAS, and still have a lot of information and sources about Turkish Islam and its affinity to Alevism in its unique character. Turkish Islam is a very different kind of thing in practise from what we know as Sunni Islam today.
Perhaps because Turkey is a secular state and there are 15-20% Alevis? There are also quite a few Christians and Arabs, fyi.
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You seem to be not very familiar with history, or at least Ottoman/Turkish history.
If you're serious about discussing this I suggest you first agree to not make personal comments, as I have no wish to discuss with a troll or deal with this new arrogant attitude that dominates the internet these days. If you confirm this I will address your comments in your post.
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If you're serious about discussing this I suggest you first agree to not make personal comments, as I have no wish to discuss with a troll or deal with this new arrogant attitude that dominates the internet these days. If you confirm this I will address your comments in your post.
Go ahead... But you might want to back up your claims with evidence.
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'In discussing this matter later with one of Turkey's greatest scholars the writer expressed the impression that the Turkish people while outwardly Sunni were, under cover of their dervish brotherhoods, partially Shi'ite, at least in their tendencies, and certainly mystical rather than orthodox. Whereas, in Moslem lands, the practice of takiye, dissimulation, had grown up to make possible a man's continuing his standing as an orthodox member of a mystic fraternity which emphasized an experiential rather than a traditional and formal approach to reality.' - The Bektashi Order of Dervishes, JK Birge
A key text revealing the tribal and Alevi heritage of Turkish Islam is the Battal Name. Too many examples to list in this, but all Alevi practices like drinking wine, mystical Islamic insight, use of music in a religious context, monastic life in a tekke, mourning of Imam Hussayn etc. are referenced clearly in this epic. And yet, Seyyid Battal Ghazi is considered a Sunni Muslim baba and his grave is visited by Sunni Muslim Turks, and the text attributes his authority as coming from Uthman, the Sunni Caliph.
The reason Turks give less importance to congregational worship is not just because of secularisation under Kemalist Nationalism as you stated. It's because Turkish Islam is a distinct entity with roots deeply entrenched in Alevism. It makes no difference that only a minority of Turks are outwardly Alevi. The substance of the beliefs and practices of Sunni Muslims in Turkey is heavily influenced by Alevism nonetheless. Check 'The Shi'ite Religion' by DM Donaldson, and 'Moslem Schisms and Sects' by KC Seelye.