A Challenge to all Arab Linguists arround the Globe
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And where did you get this idea from?
I hope I have been doing that, am doing that now and continue to do it. May our lord also bless you as well.
Godbless,
AnwarAnwer
It is a very strange thing that a person who knows arabic (Probably the only person on this forum who knows some arabic) is involved in such a ???? type of discussion ?
Regards -
And where did you get this idea from?
Dear Anwer, from here,
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000005.pdf
as well please see here
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume5/00000104.pdf
Please just review description of Dal and Tay as alphabets.
Peace and Rubb bless you and all.
Badar
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Peace,
Badar. The second link is interesting, but I am sure this only applies for those few words and may have a connection to idgham. you will find words that contain letters that are close soundwise (and in the position of the mouth) every once in a while being as synonyms. The first link you gave me is a definite explanation of idgham, something you might want to do more research on (this is also called assimilation in English and explains who letters affect the sound of other letters that follow or precede them). Extrapolating that the taw and dal are interchangeable is definitely a far reach. I would do some more research on idgham before making any more conclusions like this.
Q_Student,
I understand your point competely. And honestly I'm just trying to help in anyway I can. The world is full of very opinionated and many times very wrong people. But if someone asks me for help I will do my best and just hope that that knowledge I've given doesn't get distorted or used for the wrong purposes in the future.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
Badar. The second link is interesting, but I am sure this only applies for those few words and may have a connection to idgham. you will find words that contain letters that are close soundwise (and in the position of the mouth) every once in a while being as synonyms. The first link you gave me is a definite explanation of idgham, something you might want to do more research on (this is also called assimilation in English and explains who letters affect the sound of other letters that follow or precede them). Extrapolating that the taw and dal are interchangeable is definitely a far reach. I would do some more research on idgham before making any more conclusions like this.
Godbless,
AnwarDear Anwer may Rubb bless you more. I read idgham a while ago. I did not understand it, to be like this, but you bring an intresting prospective. Hence, I will restudy idgham with this prospective to check if it makes sense.
However, this change of Alphabet is becoming an increasingly recurring and possible helpful principle in understanding certain words in Alkitab. I will give you another example, where it seem to apply in more ambigous situation and help understand other more mysterious words in AlKitab.
I asked the question on open forum. No body answered. Although, I got a personal respose affirming it. Since it is personal reponse I can not share with you who it was. This is to respect privacy of the person.
This is what my question was "Dear are you aware that in Classic Arabic, alphabet could be changed to in script?"
Response without name "Could be chaged or looks like? I know that reading the original text is difficult without having knowledge beforehand of what letters/words are being read."
Badar
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Badar.
Also this is not a huge deal, but I wanted to correct you Badar. It is not Rubb it is Rabb. And it is Anwar, not Anwer. And may our Rabb also bless you.
Godbless,
AnwarDear Anwar, I stand corrected on both, transliteration of , as well spelling of your name. On other query, I am busy this weekend with visiting family so later.
May Rabb bless you.
Badar
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Peace,
Yes pls show me where you think this interchange between jim and yaa has happened. I also think you may have made a visual mistake.
Godbless,
AnwarDear Anwar, here are the relavant referance link for above. I do not think that Jiim and Yaa are generated close enough in Vocal tract to justify or explain this exchange. Intresting, isn't?
Peace
Badar
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume2/00000005.pdf
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Peace,
Wow, I am really glad you sited that. I always had a theory about that, having listened to the pronunciation of the Jeem in different Arabic countries. I will tell you this, the ONLY Arab group to maintain this original pronunciation of the jeem which is close to the yaa, are the Sudanese. And if you you move the jeem more to front of your mouth you get the most common (and closest to English) pronunciation of it. If you move it back in the throat you get the Egyptian and Yemeni Geem. But if you leave it in the middle it is a hybrid between a yaa and the more common J sound. This middle Jeem, that the Sudanese still employ I have always believed to be the most original form of the jeem, and you just confirmed my suspicions. Thakn you again for that and enjoy visiting your family.
Yaay, Sudanese! I love their jeem and their great Classical Arabic education. I think they have the best Classical Arabic education in the whole Arab world. As I have never been more impressed by well educated (in Arabic) Sudanese speakers compared to educated speakers from other Arabic countries. Oh and I also love the Maghrebi qaaf. Both the Maghrebi Qaaf and the Sudanese Jim are classic examples of conservative tendencies in these dialects.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
Wow, I am really glad you sited that. I always had a theory about that, having listened to the pronunciation of the Jeem in different Arabic countries. I will tell you this, the ONLY Arab group to maintain this original pronunciation of the jeem which is close to the yaa, are the Sudanese. And if you you move the jeem more to front of your mouth you get the most common (and closest to English) pronunciation of it. If you move it back in the throat you get the Egyptian and Yemeni Geem. But if you leave it in the middle it is a hybrid between a yaa and the more common J sound. This middle Jeem, that the Sudanese still employ I have always believed to be the most original form of the jeem, and you just confirmed my suspicions. Thakn you again for that and enjoy visiting your family.
Yaay, Sudanese! I love their jeem and their great Classical Arabic education. I think they have the best Classical Arabic education in the whole Arab world. As I have never been more impressed by well educated (in Arabic) Sudanese speakers compared to educated speakers from other Arabic countries. Oh and I also love the Maghrebi qaaf. Both the Maghrebi Qaaf and the Sudanese Jim are classic examples of conservative tendencies in these dialects.
Godbless,
AnwarDear Anwar, I am glad that you find this ignorant/illiterate of Arabic to be of some use. I reviewed, Idgham again today. I understood it, to be more relating to Tajweed before. That is only assimilation of alphabets in vocalization of words, not in script writing. Please see link below. Do you understand Idgham differently, if so please share some reference.
Badar
http//www.readwithtajweed.com/tajweed_Idghaam.htm
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Idgham is not about writing it is about pronuncation. It is the original pronuncation of the Arabs. What do you mean by illiterate/ignorant of Arabic? Nowadays it is only related to the Quran. But it is about pronouncing Arabic well. However it shows up in writing as there are often ques to how something is to be pronounced in the Quran per the rules of old Arabic. You might want to review it more in depth as it concerns the measures of Arabic verbs. You will probably not find that on just any old site online. I woud pick up Wright's, 'A grammar of the Arabic language'.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Idgham is not about writing it is about pronuncation. It is the original pronuncation of the Arabs. What do you mean by illiterate/ignorant of Arabic? Nowadays it is only related to the Quran. But it is about pronouncing Arabic well. However it shows up in writing as there are often ques to how something is to be pronounced in the Quran per the rules of old Arabic. You might want to review it more in depth as it concerns the measures of Arabic verbs. You will probably not find that on just any old site online. I woud pick up Wright's, 'A grammar of the Arabic language'.
Godbless,
AnwarDear Anwar, thanks. Topic of Idgham is beyond Wright. I remember now, the last 6 chapter of Sibawayh's AlKitab are titiled as Bab Al Idgham. I am reviewing them.
Badar
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Peace,
I think I have an idea of what you mean, but your question is way to broad and not specific at all. So let's take awsala for instance. In the imperfect it is yoosilu.
The two letters of these forms correspond to this grammatical change you are talking about. I don't think idgham is beyond, wright at all I'll have to review it to give you the right pages to review.Godbless,
Anwar -
Idgham is not about writing it is about pronuncation .
For non Arab, it may be otherway round. For him it is how to pronounce a written word. Like a non English student has to be told that "P" is silent in Psychology but it has to be there in the writing.
Language and its words describe things and matters around human beings. Language/Word must exist simultaneously with the creation. So both are something physical and concrete. Writing has to precede its pronunciation by others. Pronunciation is not converted into writing, it is the writing which is pronounced.
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For non Arab, it may be otherway round. For him it is how to pronounce a written word. Like a non English student has to be told that "P" is silent in Psychology but it has to be there in the writing.
Language and its words describe things and matters around human beings. Language/Word must exist simultaneously with the creation. So both are something physical and concrete. Writing has to precede its pronunciation by others. Pronunciation is not converted into writing, it is the writing which is pronounced.
Dear Brother Mazhar, very humbly and politely that account above is absolutely incorrect and misleading. May I suggest, if you want few basic books in linguistics? If you do not care , it is okay. No intent to get into a fight. Just want to get records correct.
Badar
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Dear Anwar, thanks again. I know I asked you an open question. What I meant to ask that in addition to change of verbs from perfect to imperfect. Is it possible to express concepts in certain Particles like into imperfect? By changing it?s form, from perfect to imperfect. Or rule holds good only in regards of verbs.
Furthermore, in your studies have you come across about Alif of prolongation. If so what is your understanding of it. I mean is it added to a root just to prolong the sound only in pronouncing the word, or does it add anything to the meanings of word as well.
Thanks in advance.
Badar
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For non Arab, it may be otherway round. For him it is how to pronounce a written word. Like a non English student has to be told that "P" is silent in Psychology but it has to be there in the writing.
Language and its words describe things and matters around human beings. Language/Word must exist simultaneously with the creation. So both are something physical and concrete. Writing has to precede its pronunciation by others. Pronunciation is not converted into writing, it is the writing which is pronounced.
Dear Brother Mazhar, very humbly and politely that account above is absolutely incorrect and misleading. May I suggest, if you want few basic books in linguistics? If you do not care , it is okay. No intent to get into a fight. Just want to get records correct.Brother this seems because you are not ready to even donate a second to think about it. Before Qur'aan had any body pronounced ; etc. Books in linguistics could benefit one only when he realizes the basic fact that beginning is with the code/name.
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Here is some more challenge for all Arab linguistics around the globe. Please, share your understanding as to what could be the root for this word from AlKitab. Whatever, you understand the root to be, share what grammatical changes would explain the changes to the said root to achieve this form.
Thanks in advance, peace and love to all.
Badar
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Mazhar,
This is wrong.
Language and its words describe things and matters around human beings. Language/Word must exist simultaneously with the creation. So both are something physical and concrete. Writing has to precede its pronunciation by others. Pronunciation is not converted into writing, it is the writing which is pronounced.
A language is spoken first before it is codified and written down in script. Just becuase someone learns a script first has nothing to do with the natural evolutionary stages of that language.
This is also wrong.
Brother this seems because you are not ready to even donate a second to think about it. Before Qur'aan had any body pronounced ; etc. Books in linguistics could benefit one only when he realizes the basic fact that beginning is with the code/name.
In as much as people would have expressed the ideas behind these words i.e. perverse, winds, fecundating/injecting, rope/connection and jugular vein, then yes. If the Arabs had not used these words or heard them from other Arabs before than they would have had no idea of what they meant when they were used in the Quran. Which would imply that the Quran invented Arabic words not in the naturally used vocabular and grammatical system of Classical (then colloquial) Arabic used by the pre-islamic arabs. And that frankly would be absurd as the Quran says that it is using a clear and eloquent Arabic of that day, not inventing a new language.
Badar,
Dear Anwar, thanks again. I know I asked you an open question. What I meant to ask that in addition to change of verbs from perfect to imperfect. Is it possible to express concepts in certain Particles like into imperfect? By changing it?s form, from perfect to imperfect. Or rule holds good only in regards of verbs.
Furthermore, in your studies have you come across about Alif of prolongation. If so what is your understanding of it. I mean is it added to a root just to prolong the sound only in pronouncing the word, or does it add anything to the meanings of word as well.
Thanks in advance.
I really don't understand the first part of your question clearly, but alif, waw changes to yaa, waw only when you go from perfect (past) to imperfect (present). In no other case does this happen. As for the prolonged alif. It is gramatical as well. for instance the prolonged alif in front of aamana is the natural joining of the alif and the hamza that would normally follow it. And fatha/alif sequence can take a maddah (prolongation) and all alif, hamza or hamza, alif sequences take it.
Here is some more challenge for all Arab linguistics around the globe. Please, share your understanding as to what could be the root for this word from AlKitab. Whatever, you understand the root to be, share what grammatical changes would explain the changes to the said root to achieve this form.
Thanks in advance, peace and love to all.
Again this is not a challenge at all. this is from the root yasara (ya, seen, raa). It is form/measure II, yassara (yaa, seen(shaddah), raa). It is also first person plural (we). When in imperfect (present tense) it will follow the form noon (dommah) yaa (fathah), seen(shaddah, kasrah), raa (dommah for nominative/marfoo'. The word here means 'we make easy.'
The prefixes are faa' (pronounced fa) which means 'so/and/but/however/moreover' and seen (pronounced 'sa' here) whcih is the future marker. The suffix is a haa' and is pronounced 'hu' it means as we saw previously 'it' or 'he'.
Taking all this into account the Arabic word above means 'we will make it/him easy.'
I am really shocked at these questions badar, but fire away, if it helps it helps. By the way the prefixes and suffixes are attached to these words but they have their own meanings which add to the meaning of the key word in between (nuyassiru).
Do you not find the time or the money for Arabic lessons where you live? WHy don't you just start sending me pm's and istead of call these grammatical challenges as they are really just grammar lessons for you.
Godbless,
Anwar