Revised Article on Jinn

Layth

Peace,

A number of comments

Salat/Siyam are adressed to Mumineen specifically. I have not read anywhere that Jinn can be Mumineen (which seems to be a human triat), rather they relate that they contrast bewteen being Salihoon and not Salihoon (see 7211).
On the question about plasma and non-organic matter...Don`t get caught-up in the scientific definition as what is being discussed is beings made of energy/fire. If non-organic matter cannot be as such, then obviusly it is the worng definition.
On the issue of ma3shar, it is a stating the obvious since it is clear from the Quran that the fate of the Jinn and Inss are intertwined.
On the issue of Jinn being the human creative side...Sorry, but that is really ignoring some obvious verses such as Iblees being from the Jinn, such as the Jinn saying they used to travel the heavens to listen-in on God`s decrees, etc..

Finally, and as Ayman mentioned, the concept of something being alive or intellegent is far beyond what humans can grasp as God tells us that mountains are able to converse and make decisions (3372), that the earth and universe made decisions to come when God requested them (4111), etc.

maxq

You have still not answered my question

1736 Wa laa taqfu maa laisa laka bihee ''ilm (J) Innas-Sam''a wal-basra wal-fu'aada kullu ulaaa'ika kaana ''anhu mas'oolaa (A)

And you shall not accept (taqfu here means to halt at/be satisfied or content with) any (information) of which you have no (direct) knowledge. (Do not follow blindly! Using your faculties of perception and conception you must verify information for yourself.) In the Court of your Lord, you will be held accountable for (your) hearing, sight, and the faculty of reasoning (fu'aada points back to laa taqfu, hence the intended meaning).

How can you verify or reasonably justify that jinns are a race made of fire?

One simple quiz for anyone reading this thread

114004
YUSUFALI From the mischief of the Whisperer (of Evil), who withdraws (after his whisper),- ok so far
PICKTHAL From the evil of the sneaking whisperer, ok so far
SHAKIR From the evil of the whisperings of the slinking (Shaitan), ok so far

114005
YUSUFALI (The same) who whispers into the hearts of Mankind,- ok so far
PICKTHAL Who whispereth in the hearts of mankind, ok so far
SHAKIR Who whispers into the hearts of men, ok so far

114006
YUSUFALI Among Jinns and among men. (so jinns are from mankind??)
PICKTHAL Of the jinn and of mankind. (again!)
SHAKIR From among the jinn and the men. (so men/women can whisper into the hearts/chests of other men/women too.. ok!? Well who whispers in the hearts of jinns??)

6100 Yet, they set up beside GOD idols from among the jinns, though He is the One who created them. They attribute to Him sons and daughters, without any knowledge. Be He glorified. He is the Most High, far above their claims. (Jesus Christ was a man whereas Allat is nothing but Venus, a celestial object, and was venerated as such!! Refer to 4137, 184 and 5319 ... Were Jesus and Allat created from fire??)

6128 The day will come when He summons all of them (and says) "O you jinns, you have claimed multitudes of humans." Their human companions will say, "Our Lord, we enjoyed each others' company until we wasted the life span You had set for us." He will say, "The Fire be your dwelling-place." They abide therein forever, in accordance with GOD's will. Your Lord is Wise, Omniscient. (So jinns will live in fire eh? They should feel right at home if they are made of fire. Is Allah trying to make jinns comfortable? And if fire is used symbolically for hell, then why do people take it literally for "jinns made from fire"?)

(On a sidenote, I asked this question from a mullah, and he said "The fire of hell is hotter!" with such surity as if he'd been there lolz)

What I believe are correct renditions

1144 "From the evil of the whisperings of the blinding desire.
1145 That whispers in peoples' conscious. (5016) (notice sudoor, not quloob, signifies active thought process)
1146 From the hidden (psyche that rationalizes the evil,) as well as (through temptations that come from) people."

6100 Yet, there are people who falsely attribute Divinity to the unseen/intangible (products of their psyche Eg. Christ, Allat/Venus etc.). But He has created them (referring to the immortalized/venerated people or celestial objects), and people assign sons and daughters to Him out of sheer ignorance. Glorified, Exalted is He, infinitely Above what they ascribe to Him.

6128 The day will come when He gathers all of them and says, O you (gypsies, nomads, witch-doctors and shamans that spend their lives in wilderness/solitude and) who revealed themselves seldom (to city/village dwellers)! You have seduced many of the urban (with your superstitious beliefs and covert tactics). Their urbanite copmpanions/friends will say, Our Lord! We enjoyed each others company (the jinn in misleading and the ins in following, while both are mislead by their respective desires) until we wasted a life span You had given us." He will say, Fire is your home. Abide therein forever according to Allah's Design." Verily, (O Messenger) your Lord is Wise, Knowing. (He has designed His Laws in all Wisdom and Knowledge).
OR
6128 The day will come when He gathers all of them and says, O you who remained hidden (in your objectives to those you mislead)! You have seduced many among mankind (with your superstitious beliefs and covert tactics). Those among the people who supported them will say, Our Lord! We enjoyed each others company until we wasted a life span You had given us." He will say, Fire is your home. Abide therein forever according to Allah's Design." Verily, (O Messenger) your Lord is Wise, Knowing. (He has designed His Laws in all Wisdom and Knowledge).

Unless jinns are not a separate species, but an attribute that makes that group different from the INS within the same species, and points to some inside force that is native to us, and to intangibles we falsely venerate, the jinn-being theory creates numerous contradictions in the Quran.

I am reiterating that we must be pragmatic! The Quran is not a fairytale!

Why do you think all depictions of the jinn in stories show them without legs, and instead a conical vortex like a whirl-wind/tornado/dust-devil is shown for the lower part of the body? This definition was propagated by nomads/bediun who saw dust-devils in the deserts and associated them with beings that were hidden to sight! Again, the word, hidden... What is your explanation to this question Layth?

Obviously we have a major disagreement despite all examples mentioned. And it's not just you and me Layth, we have others who disagree with your point of view even when we agree in many other areas. What I am certain about, is that any reader can easily make a meaningful decision for him/herself, if he/she seriously reviews this thread in its entirity. This is one extremely positive aspect of this intense dialogue (or polylogue lol).

Best regards,
maxq

Layth

Dear Maxq,

And you shall not accept (taqfu here means to halt at/be satisfied or content with) any (information) of which you have no (direct) knowledge. (Do not follow blindly! Using your faculties of perception and conception you must verify information for yourself.) In the Court of your Lord, you will be held accountable for (your) hearing, sight, and the faculty of reasoning (fu'aada points back to laa taqfu, hence the intended meaning).

How can you verify or reasonably justify that jinns are a race made of fire?

This is the simplest question anyone has ever asked me...I know for a fact that Jinn are a race made from fire because God has given this information through His Scripture, and I have already believed and accepted holeheartedly that the Scripture is indeed from none other than God.

You would do well to remember an important tenant of faith that God has given us very early on in the Scripture

"Those who believe in the unseen/unknown (ghayb), and honour the Salat, and from Our provisions to them they spend." (23)

Knowing this little info will help solve your dilema whereby you are discarding lots of events simply because you cannot verify them or see them today (did Moses split the sea? since it cant be done or seen today then people who do not accept belieivng in the ghayb` end-up denying that a physical pareting took place and enter into this strange explanations that it was metaphoric, etc.).

114006
YUSUFALI Among Jinns and among men. (so jinns are from mankind??)
PICKTHAL Of the jinn and of mankind. (again!)
SHAKIR From among the jinn and the men. (so men/women can whisper into the hearts/chests of other men/women too.. ok!? Well who whispers in the hearts of jinns??)

The verse is speaking of the whisperer (Satan), who is destined to burn in Hell and will take all he can with him...You forgot that the Jinn also have repenters amongst them who no longer follow the path taken by Satan...Therefore this verse is a warning for both species to take-care from the true enemy.

6128 The day will come when He gathers all of them and says, ?O you who remained hidden (in your objectives to those you mislead)! You have seduced many among mankind (with your superstitious beliefs and covert tactics).? Those among the people who supported them will say, ?Our Lord! We enjoyed each other?s company until we wasted a life span You had given us." He will say, ?Fire is your home. Abide therein forever according to Allah's Design." Verily, (O Messenger) your Lord is Wise, Knowing. (He has designed His Laws in all Wisdom and Knowledge).

Here is what your undertsanding looks like when applied elsewhere

"And we (who remained hidden) touched the heavens, but found it full of powerful guards and projectiles. And we used to sit in it in places of listening, but anyone who sits now finds a projectile seeking him." (728-9)

"He created the human from a clay, like pottery. And those who remain hidden, He created from a smokeless fire." (5514-15)

"And We said to the Angels Yield to Adam. So they all yielded except for Satan, he was of those hidden, so he disobeyed the order of his Lord. Will you take him and his progeny as allies besides Me, while they are your enemy? Miserable for the wicked is the substitute!" (1850)

"And We created you, then We shaped you, then We said to the Angels Yield to Adam; so they yielded except for Satan, he was not of those who yielded. He said What has prevented you from yielding when I have ordered you? He said ?I am far better than him, You created me from fire and created him from clay!" (711-12)

I would assume that according to your methodology, Satan is not really an alien or other being (since you have not seen or verified him) but all these verses are allegoric and Satan must be a reperesantation of the human conciousness which is of a firey nature and argues that it is better than the calm part of the conciousness (represented by a reference to humans being made from clay)?

Why do you think all depictions of the jinn in stories show them without legs, and instead a conical vortex like a whirl-wind/tornado/dust-devil is shown for the lower part of the body? This definition was propagated by nomads/bediun who saw dust-devils in the deserts and associated them with beings that were hidden to sight! Again, the word, hidden... What is your explanation to this question Layth?

No offence, but I really care less what is depicted in mythology for the Jinn since we are talking about the facts using God`s Scripture and not some bedouin folk tales.

maxq

As-Salaam-u-Alaikum Layth,

Like I said, Anyone who reads this thread in its entirity will be able to make a meaningful decision... No offence is taken Layth; I believe that you are sincere in your discussion, but you must accept that no one else on the thread has had the extra time to spare in idle talk either.

Knowing this little info will help solve your dilema whereby you are discarding lots of events simply because you cannot verify them or see them today (did Moses split the sea? since it cant be done or seen today then people who do not accept belieivng in the ghayb` end-up denying that a physical pareting took place and enter into this strange explanations that it was metaphoric, etc.).
If you had reviewed my post in its entirity, you would not have asked me about believing about the "Ghaib"... There is no direct mention but the context is there. Nonetheless...

This is an attempt to rectify the translation you assumed I would provide for the verses

725 And behold, we used to think that people or those (nomads/gypsies/shamans/sufis) who are covert (in misleading them - or who live in wilderness and are rarely seen by the urbanites/people 612, would never utter a lie about Allah.
726 And, indeed some people of town dwellers used to seek shelter/spend time with some of those covert/rarely-seen ones, and increased them in confusion.
727 And they thought as you thought that Allah would never again send forth anyone. (As His Messenger, and so, the claimants of the occult sciences would carry on with their deceptions).
728 And we tried to feel the heaven but found it well attended by mighty guards and flames." (The shining Knowledge in the Quran dismisses all conjecture of the astrologers, fortune-tellers, and other claimants of occult sciences).
729 (The nomads continued), "And we used to sit on places listening to the 'heavenly news'. But now whoever listens will find a flame waiting for him. (The brilliant flame of Divine Revelation is now ever-ready to torch the conjecture of the astrologers 376-9, 675).
7210 And we know not whether harm is intended for the inhabitants of the earth, or whether their Lord wills for them Enlightenment." (It remains to be seen how people will react to this revolutionary Message).

5514-15 (He) created the human (form) out of inorganic matter that sounded like an empty pot. (And it was empty of a trace of the finished form). And created that which is hidden (psychological aspects, thought processes, that others cannot see or sense) out of a flickering flame of fire/chaos.

1850 Recall when We told the angels, "Bow yourselves before Adam!" They all bowed except Iblis (from BLS, hinting rebellious side of man). He was of the stealthy (selfish desires) that drifted away from his Lord's Command. Will you still befriend him and his comrades? What a miserable exchange do the wrongdoers make for the right guidance! (230-3.

711 We created you, then shaped you, then told the angels, "Be of service to Adam! And they agreed to be of service, all but Iblis (Satan). He was not of the subservient.

I would assume that according to your methodology, Satan is not really an alien or other being (since you have not seen or verified him) but all these verses are allegoric and Satan must be a reperesantation of the human conciousness which is of a firey nature and argues that it is better than the calm part of the conciousness (represented by a reference to humans being made from clay)?
Not that it is better, but that it will not bow/prostrate (serve) and would rather control the conscious and the form. Your assumption is correct except for what I described in the preceding sentence.

As for bedu mythology, I couldn't care less what beduin think the jinn are too. I am interested in how they got to that conclusion based on the meaning of the word jinn...

I do not think we are getting anywhere by splitting hairs. I spoke my mind and you did yours, and so did Ayman and Arnold. Everyone in this thread had meaningful input and I do not think this discussion was in vain. I thank you for the opportunity for allowing me to participate.

What I would urge you to do is put a "disputed topic" label in your article on the jinn for the main website... that is more representative of the discussion than anything else. Something like

To the readers, just keep 1736 in mind... (but please use the correct rendition of 1736 I have used it in this thread. Do not use Yousuf Ali's translation at least)

God bless.

ayman

Peace Layth,

On the issue of ma3shar, it is a stating the obvious since it is clear from the Quran that the fate of the Jinn and Inss are intertwined.

The word "ma3shar" doesn't mean "intertwined fate". It means constantly living together. Thus, "3ashar" means "live with". This is in line with what we are told about "jinn" being linked to humans.

On the issue of Jinn being the human creative side...Sorry, but that is really ignoring some obvious verses such as Iblees being from the Jinn, such as the Jinn saying they used to travel the heavens to listen-in on God`s decrees, etc..

Why would "iblees" being from the "jinn" negate that? Does this mean that you think that our imagination/creative side is our own creation, not another creature of the god? Do you think that that ability to imagine did not exist before humans?

What "listening-in on God`s decrees"? Please tell us where in the scripture it says this about the god's decrees.

The god guides with the truth. Believing in demons and plasmatic aliens/ghosts is what sectarians believe in. This clearly hasn't helped them get nearer to the truth.

Every passage in the great reading is relevant to improve our understanding and guide us. What guidance did you get out from your claim that "jinn" means demons? Have you ever experienced such demons? If not, then are all those passages that supposedly talk about them irrelevant to you?

We should know better. Everyone who has done wrong has experienced those so-called demons. I am sure you have, or do you think that "jinn" are always someone else's problem that is irrelevant to you? Just look inside you and tell us what has made you or others do wrong? I know that you know. WE ALL KNOW. So please answer honestly. When you are tempted to do wrong and you fight back and stay in control, is it a demon that you are fighting? By claiming that our enemy is a demon that is irrelevant to us as opposed to the real hidden enemy that we all instinctively know, aren't you undermining the fight and making all those passages about "jinn" irrelevant?

At any rate, if you are set on "jinn" being "demons" then try to find another description because if you look up "demons" in any dictionary you will find that it means "mythological evil creatures". I noticed that you used sometimes the word "those who remained hidden" this is better. We are told in the scripture that "those who remained hidden" communicate with us in the same way as ourselves communicates with us. Thus, for all intents and purposes they can be considered a component of our psyche.

Finally, people often quote the following passage when discussing "jinn", and you did too.

"Those who believe in the unseen/unknown (ghayb), and honour the Salat, and from Our provisions to them they spend." (23)

According to 3441, we should not believe in "jinn".

Peace,

Ayman

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Ayman and all,

According to 3441, we should not believe in "jinn".

(3441)They said "Your praise/glory; you are our guardian/ally from other than them, but they were serving the hidden (visual thoughts/imagination), most of them are trusters(muminoona) in them (visual thoughts/imagination)."

I think by using trust rather than believe (in every occurence) will give us the correct understanding. If we sit back and observe how we act , we wil notice that when certain things happen in life, we are conditioned to have certain thoghts and images to come to our minds on how to respond. For example, we are on a diet, but we walk pass a bakery and the smell is soooooo delightful, so we start to see ourselves eating the cakes and pies, etc. Or we are somewhere and someone steps on our foot, the image of us punching this person may come to us because on TV or on radio or maybe our friends always respond or talk about responding to such a situation in that manner.

The point is that thoughts and images come to us AUTOMATICALLy based on how we have been programmed or how we have programmed ourselves and WOE to the one who programs but is not aware of the programming(salaat). All of the thoughts and images that come to us AUTOMATICALLy are NOT tor be trusted, meaning followed blindly. We must be at PEACE in all adversities, so that our Energies are at rest, not moving, therefore we can reason properly how to respond, OR we must reporgram our spirits to automatically respond correctly.

ayman

Peace Kyle,

Thank you for your comments on this important topic.

(3441)They said "Your praise/glory; you are our guardian/ally from other than them, but they were serving the hidden (visual thoughts/imagination), most of them are trusters(muminoona) in them (visual thoughts/imagination)."

I think by using trust rather than believe (in every occurence) will give us the correct understanding. If we sit back and observe how we act , we wil notice that when certain things happen in life, we are conditioned to have certain thoghts and images to come to our minds on how to respond. For example, we are on a diet, but we walk pass a bakery and the smell is soooooo delightful, so we start to see ourselves eating the cakes and pies, etc. Or we are somewhere and someone steps on our foot, the image of us punching this person may come to us because on TV or on radio or maybe our friends always respond or talk about responding to such a situation in that manner.

The point is that thoughts and images come to us AUTOMATICALLy based on how we have been programmed or how we have programmed ourselves and WOE to the one who programs but is not aware of the programming(salaat). All of the thoughts and images that come to us AUTOMATICALLy are NOT tor be trusted, meaning followed blindly. We must be at PEACE in all adversities, so that our Energies are at rest, not moving, therefore we can reason properly how to respond, OR we must reporgram our spirits to automatically respond correctly.

I generally agree with what you are saying and I see wisdom in it.

I don't see much difference between faith and trust. We should not have faith/trust in fantasies because they are not real. So, for example, we shouldn't have faith/trust in the fantasy of an all powerful stone statue. We control this fantasy with the truth (reality). The problem is not in the image itself per say. Thus, two people can be looking at the same piece of rock, one sees a rock and the other sees a powerful idol.

Peace,

Ayman

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Ayman,

I generally agree with what you are saying and I see wisdom in it.

I don't see much difference between faith and trust.

The difference I was trying to point out was between "belief" and "trust". Trust adds the element of conviction to the belief. See, there are two kinds of beliefs, one where you are CONVINCED and one where you are not convinced. The one where you are CONVINCED becomes TRUST. And it is that which we TRUST that moves us. Our energies are motivated by this CONVICTION, wether for right or wrong.

Let me give an example, one is living in poor conditions and they asy "I believe one day I will get enough money to do such and such"...yes, they have that belief, but it does not really "MOVE" them per say....however, lets say this same person gets a call from thier brother or sister saying that they think they just came across an idea that will make them rich and they explain how this will work, etc...now this same belief of one day getting enough money has CONVICTION behind it and so when they say it now, there is EBERGY behind it, you can "feel" it. But this does not make it Truth(KNOWLEDGE), it is still a belief because it is not certain if you will make money. But the difference is the energy.

I will search for a better example to clarify this point.

We should not have faith/trust in fantasies because they are not real.<<<

This is a point where we differ and I hope we can have good dialogue about this as we move foward. I am using the word Imagination rather than fantasy, because what I have come to understand is that what you do in your imagination and what you do in real life is NOT DIFFERENTIATED in your spirit!!! Meaning your imagination is VERY REAL as far as your spirit(nafs) is concerned, and that is why/how the imagination is used as a tool for programing/reprogaming the spirit(nafs). We can use the example of the "wet dream" where one is having sex in a dream (imagination) and wakes up to find they have literally ejaculated. Sports players use imagination to improve thier game. If you imagine yourself performing a perfect golf swing over and over again, your spirit registers that as perfect swings in real life, and you become better at your real performance.

We can go into that more but my point is that Imagination is very real, the problem is that the images that come to us in moments of adversity SUGGEST to us how to act, if we TRUST those images, we could be steered in the wrong direction.

thegod

layth wrote
Conclusion

Jinn are beings made of energy "Plasma" that is derived from smokeless fire;
Jinn were created before mankind to serve God and uphold his commands;
Jinn were able to travel the galaxy and listen-in on God's commands to His angels;
Jinn failed in the task of upholding God's commands and were replaced in authority by mankind;
Satan pleaded with God to remain on Earth and prove that mankind is unworthy;
God granted Satan's request, with restriction on the movement of Jinn to this universe only;
Jinn camp is split between those who repented to God and those who insist on Satan's way;
Human messengers are sent not only to revert mankind, but also to revert Jinn;
Jinn may whisper to all humans, except those who invoke God's protection;
Jinn may move physical objects, possess artistic as well as construction abilities.

a good read....quite well supported by quran! -)

....however, at the moment, i ve reservations about conclusions 4 and 9...and maybe a bit about 8!

nonetheless...well-articulated and clear....a good read! -)

Meteora

Yeah about Jinn...I read they do not possess the ruwh, or spirit..if so, how do they go to heaven?

MUNZIR_ALI

Yeah about Jinn...I read they do not possess the ruwh, or spirit.

Where?

Meteora

From the black panther.

MUNZIR_ALI

From the black panther.

Is it a nice book? I mean is it worth reading?