Hello Folks, Fawzia here! I was a Quranist for 10 months.
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AbdalQuran,
Although your sarcasm might be offensive to some, I think you did a good job of not trying to sound too offensive but driving your point home as well. You hit up Fawzia on some really good points that I'm sure she has not fully thought through. Although I would love to know what that incident with her aunt was that the Quran is to blame for. And I love her accusation that Quranists have changed 'beat' to 'leave.' I guess you can't expect her to understand the language aspect of this if she's not even interested in Arabic. I personally accept both 'hit' (it's not beat) AND leave. But if you don't take the whole Quran into context anyone who only wants to follow part of the Quran and follow the rest of their desires will not take other passsages that talk about excessiveness, extremism and trying to harm fellow believers or anyone unjustly. But anyway, I'll just wait to see how she's going to reply to your post (it was funny, wierd, but funny). And I hope she goes into detail about her aunt. Besides that I want to state that as a Quranist I respect her right to choose whatever she wants to believe, even if it does entail a degree of ignorance or unjustified bias. It is her choice. So yeah, Fawzia pls explain about your aunt and I promise you that I will do my best not to ridicule you or disparage you. Although I might be dissapointed and have less respect for you (the opposite could occur) but I will always respect your God given rights to belief and disbelief in the Quran and/or faithfulness and unfaithfulness to God and/or willful ignorance or willful education and pursuit of of understanding and knowledge.
Godbless,
AnwarI will post about my aunt in detail, maybe somedays later. I don't have inordinate amount of time on my hands. I would make a separate thread on it maybe, for now let me concentrate on these. )
But I would surely post in detail.
peace Fawzia,
I'd be interested to see a list of your strongest objections to The Quran.
As a side note, I am currently writing an article on the infamous 434. GW, I will be finished it shortly, for all to see.
Yes Wakas, I will surely post the list of my strongest objections to the Quran, shortly, although not immediately. I would read your article on 434 as well.
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Lovely, long, sarcastic post. I'm not simply speaking of translations-I have spoken to enough Saudi Arabs. Cousin marriages, btw, aren't even due to Fatima & Ali precedent only,unfortunately, there's nowhere in the Quran where cousin marriage is baned, even repeated cousin marriages.
So if the Q doesn?t ban it, that automatically makes the Q not divinely inspired? Well that?s your perogative to choose but if you want to parade your logic around here, you may need some rhetorical bullet-proof vests. So far, your logic can be at best called ?subjective?.
I uderstand the desperation of many Muslims to salvage their faith by insisting that all hadiths are fabricated, even by insisting that the Quran is quite incapable of proper translation, & even Saudi & Yemeni Arabs et al can't read it properly, only the most morally acceptable translations are correct, otherwise its mis translation! ;D
Wow, desperation to salvage faith by calling hadith fabricated! Hey , since you were a ?Quranist? for 10 months, you must have known the Quranist argumentation against hadith and even accepted it for those 10 months. Now suddenly we?re ?desperate? . So this means that you believe the hadith-believers are correct. I therefore CHALLENGE you to defend THEIR position. We can then see how much of a ?Quranist? you were.
Who said ?morally acceptable? translations are correct? I guess you must have been the most ill-informed ?Quranist? on earth. Of course with your POOR attitude to scholarship, I can?t expect anything else. You think learning the Arabic language is beneath you yet you don?t mind thinking that Quranists are trying to pander to other (read Western) moral standards. Is this a RATIONAL act on your part? Is it RATIONAL to refuse to verify information because it?s not worth your time yet venture to call other people ?desperate?? I don?t think it?s rational. I think it?s ARROGANCE based on SELF-HATE. It probably came from your angst-driven rant about the Iranian revolution. Rejecting Quran, burning it, putting it in the toilet or whatever you like is your perogative but if you want to pass your rejection off as ?rational?, you?ve got a looooooooong way.I was one of these folks too! Fortunately, I was able to see that this sort of massive denial leads to nothing.
If you were a Quranist, you?d never think junking hadith is a ?desperate? act. Quranists know the overwhelming evidence against acceptance of hadith. I don?t believe you, not that it matters.
When Wakas posts his article , I?m waiting to see your masterful logic and scholarly comments. -
Welcome Fawzia,
As a strong believer, I'm always saddened to hear Muslims leaving Islam, but I respect your decision. People have the choice to believe or reject. What I find very striking is that so many Iranians seem to leave Islam, especially those who live abroad. I have yet to meet a Muslim Iranian. I'm from Turkey, your neighbour
The "Islamic" revolution has succeeded in making Islam the enemy of the people. People now associete Islam with the goverment that opresses them, tells them how to dress, etc.
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The "Islamic" revolution has succeeded in making Islam the enemy of the people. People now associete Islam with the goverment that opresses them, tells them how to dress, etc.
Peace Tareq,
That is also my impression. Also, perhaps shia Islam, which has some really bizarre concepts, is part of the problem as well. But then, sunni Islam is far from perfect either..
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Peace Tareq,
That is also my impression. Also, perhaps shia Islam, which has some really bizarre concepts, is part of the problem as well. But then, sunni Islam is far from perfect either..
Peace recluce,
Funny thing is that both sides,sunni and shia, can see how full of shit the other side is. If only enough people would look in the mirror and apply the same scrutiny to themselves that they apply to others, what a wonderfull world it would be. -
Peace recluce,
Funny thing is that both sides,sunni and shia, can see how full of shit the other side is. If only enough people would look in the mirror and apply the same scrutiny to themselves that they apply to others, what a wonderfull world it would be.bravo
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The "Islamic" revolution has succeeded in making Islam the enemy of the people. People now associete Islam with the goverment that opresses them, tells them how to dress, etc.
Exactly. I'm an Iranian Muslim myself (though I was born and raised here in the States).
Welcome Fawzia. To the others, please do not get angry or sarcastic when discussing issues with Fawzia or anyone else. Responding peacefully is the best way.
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Exactly. I'm an Iranian Muslim myself (though I was born and raised here in the States).
Welcome Fawzia. To the others, please do not get angry or sarcastic when discussing issues with Fawzia or anyone else. Responding peacefully is the best way.
Dear Caveman,
Believe me, there's no anger involved here. I don't know if Fawzia is real or not even, let alone am I bothered about. She can believe whatever she wants, its between her and God. What really is interesting to me is the analysis of their language and thought. Fawzia claims to be a quranist yet now she considers junking hadith to be 'desperate act to salvage their faith'. She's also very against the study of Arabic, preferring to speak to Arabs to judge the Quran. Would you call such a person 'objective' (if 'objective' didn't mean 'blatantly biased', that is) ? -
Fawzia, I'm sorry about the attitude from some people on this forum. When I found this forum I thought discussions would be civil. Sadly this often isn't the case. Some of us here would like to hear your point of view with resorting to snottiness (no, it's not funny, nor the way to have any kind of useful discussion). Please just ignore them. They aren't worth wasting your time with a response.
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She's also very against the study of Arabic, preferring to speak to Arabs to judge the Quran. Would you call such a person 'objective' (if 'objective' didn't mean 'blatantly biased', that is) ?
Would you please apply the same principle to all those who cannot read even a single word of the Quran in arabic and entirely depend upon translations.They are not ready to learn arabic to study the Quran. Or this principle is only for "Fauzia" ?
Regards -
She's also very against the study of Arabic, preferring to speak to Arabs to judge the Quran. Would you call such a person 'objective' (if 'objective' didn't mean 'blatantly biased', that is) ?
A lot of us here, including myself, do not know Arabic. I do intend to learn Arabic in future, but it may be a long time from now, since I don't have the time for it with classes and all. I don't see how not knowing Arabic equates to being 'not objective'
You might accuse her of being unnecessarily harsh and racist towards South Asians in the UK, but I don't think you can say she's biased on the basis of not having studied Arabic.
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Dear Fawzia,
On behalf of all the Quranists, I'd like to nominate you for 'Quranist of the Year' award for your outstanding scholarship and awareness of Quranist issues and methodology on reading the Quran. Wow, I must say, I've never encountered your kind of brilliance and objectivity before. Tell me, are you married? If not, I'd like to propose marriage to you. I'm sure all our kids will be 'Super-Quranists' thanks to your genes.
Let me quote to you some what you said so we can understand your brilliance.
Fawzia.
YES ! That's brilliant. Because the Quran has NEVER been misappopriated or mistranslated. All the 'sciences' of understanding the Quran like 'ABROGATION' must be true. Wow.
and
No no, of course we don?t. We can and should trust ALL translators. In fact, the more they are ?against? Islam, the more we should believe them because they are incapable of lies.and
Yes yes yes! How dare these people try to change what has been written in stone! After all ,the people who understood the Quran before us were the most brilliant human beings on earth. They actually thought Muhammad was bewitched and didn?t know what he saying.
Yes yes. And we must blame the Quran for this too, since it?s in surah 116, ayah 320. Good point there, Fawzia.Wow Fawzia, you?re so intelligent. May I inquire , are you a professor of logic at Harvard or Oxford? If so, I?d love to visit you some time. I?m pretty sure you?ll win this ?Quranist of the Year? award. There is only one another nominee Geert Wilders (but I wouldn?t like to propose to him).
AbdalQuran,
I am sure that you know a lot more about the Quran than many of us here since you have given time to its study. But that does not mean that those of us who haven't have not brought up good questions. If instead of being accusatory, and somewhat offensive (what was all that about proposing and giving the Quranist award), you are more civil, it might make us more open and willing to listen to your arguments (and I am sure you have good ones) rather than being put off by your attitude. I would have PM'ed this to you, but this actually applies to others on this forum who have a similar attitude, and is also directed at them, and not to you alone.
A condescending attitude in your posts can draw attention away from the good points you make.
Peace,
Sarah
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When I found this forum I thought discussions would be civil. Sadly this often isn't the case. Some of us here would like to hear your point of view with resorting to snottiness (no, it's not funny, nor the way to have any kind of useful discussion).
agreed. There is no point to being condescending in one's attitude towards those who don't know how to read Arabic. The Quran tells the believers/submitters to be patient and understanding. Putting off people with one's attitude does not lead to any productive discussion or learning.
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I'm not simply speaking of translations-I have spoken to enough Saudi Arabs. Cousin marriages, btw, aren't even due to Fatima & Ali precedent only,unfortunately, there's nowhere in the Quran where cousin marriage is banned, even repeated cousin marriages.
I uderstand the desperation of many Muslims to salvage their faith by insisting that all hadiths are fabricated, even by insisting that the Quran is quite incapable of proper translation, & even Saudi & Yemeni Arabs et al can't read it properly, only the most morally acceptable translations are correct, otherwise its mis translation! ;D
I was one of these folks too! Fortunately, I was able to see that this sort of massive denial leads to nothing.
You do realise that Saudi Arabs are blindsided by tafseer and hadiths and don't read the Quran with an unbiassed perspective?
I don't see why the Quran should ban cousin marriages. There are health risks, but that doesn't justify a complete ban.
Hadiths are fabricated. One doesn't have to be a Quranist or even a Muslim to see that the 'isnad' or chain of narration, even if sound, doesn't take into account the errors or the fact that Bukhary rejected nearly all (98%) of hadiths. It's pretty obvious. Remember Chinese Whispers? Imagine that over 200years.What exactly are we denying? Words have multiple meanings, if a word means 'beat' or 'leave' we should always take the one that makes the most sense in context and is logically consistent. Can you explain to me how beating one's wife would solve the problem of marital discord? It would only increase it. A separation would allow both parties to think things over more clearly.
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agreed. There is no point to being condescending in one's attitude towards those who don't know how to read Arabic. The Quran tells the believers/submitters to be patient and understanding. Putting off people with one's attitude does not lead to any productive discussion or learning.
I don't think ANYONE here was being condescending towards Fawzia's inability to understand Arabic. No one at all. Lets reread what Fawzia's wrote
I do not need or want to study Arabic-it has little use in the world, thanks to Islam.
Who's being condescending here? I tell you it was THIS statement which prompted me to first respond to this person. If a person came in and sincerely said, 'i cant believe God sends books and if he did, it wouldnt be the Quran', that's fine. But look at THIS statement above. It's the statement of a condescending person so come on, you wanna lie down for this person? Not me.
