Hello Folks, Fawzia here! I was a Quranist for 10 months.
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well, definitely more than you
loli'll leave you with your childish cheap shots. hopefully they can satisfy you since providing good arguments isn't an option.
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So if the Q doesn?t ban it, that automatically makes the Q not divinely inspired? Well that?s your perogative to choose but if you want to parade your logic around here, you may need some rhetorical bullet-proof vests. So far, your logic can be at best called ?subjective?.
As I said before, my objection to the Quran itself has to do with multiple more stuff than simply the "cousin marriage" thing. I did say that I am going to narrate them all gradually. However, I can't do all that in a single thread or at the same time. I like everyone else, have many things to do in my daily life, but surely I will make a list of stuff I object to gradually.
Yeah, sure my logic is subjective, so is everyone else's whenit comes to something like the Quran or any other holy book. Its not mathematics. A Muslim guy who adores the Quran & someone like Sebastian Faulks who finds it devoid of ethical innovation or originality, or an atheist like Sam Harris, who finds it among the mot violent of religious books(he claims to have read the religious texts of all faiths) all are entitled to their own opinions-there's no way to decide that only one opinion is correct, as I said, coz this isn't mathematics & no one can be declared right or wrong.
Cousin marriages btw, although certainly not my only or even primary objection to the Quran, were an important issue for me, coz it was one of the very first stuff which made me notice that if a book claims to be from the Creator, it should have such knowledge & declare it out loud, however a book by human hads would reflect the prejudices, hangups & prevailing customs of its time, & not banning repeated cousin weddings, but banning marriages to milk sisters should more of a primitive society reflecting their beliefs.
I will surely post my other objections later.
Wow, desperation to salvage faith by calling hadith fabricated! Hey , since you were a ?Quranist? for 10 months, you must have known the Quranist argumentation against hadith and even accepted it for those 10 months. Now suddenly we?re ?desperate? . So this means that you believe the hadith-believers are correct. I therefore CHALLENGE you to defend THEIR position. We can then see how much of a ?Quranist? you were.
Who said ?morally acceptable? translations are correct? I guess you must have been the most ill-informed ?Quranist? on earth. Of course with your POOR attitude to scholarship, I can?t expect anything else. You think learning the Arabic language is beneath you yet you don?t mind thinking that Quranists are trying to pander to other (read Western) moral standards. Is this a RATIONAL act on your part? Is it RATIONAL to refuse to verify information because it?s not worth your time yet venture to call other people ?desperate?? I don?t think it?s rational. I think it?s ARROGANCE based on SELF-HATE. It probably came from your angst-driven rant about the Iranian revolution. Rejecting Quran, burning it, putting it in the toilet or whatever you like is your perogative but if you want to pass your rejection off as ?rational?, you?ve got a looooooooong way.Hey, I wasn't at all the one who began this sort of rude name calling!
Look at the post of someone else here, who began by being extremely rude to me This is abdul quran's looong post, claiming how incredible stupid I am, for rejecting even the Quran,
Dear Fawzia,
On behalf of all the Quranists, I'd like to nominate you for 'Quranist of the Year' award for your outstanding scholarship and awareness of Quranist issues and methodology on reading the Quran. Wow, I must say, I've never encountered your kind of brilliance and objectivity before. Tell me, are you married? If not, I'd like to propose marriage to you. I'm sure all our kids will be 'Super-Quranists' thanks to your genes.
Let me quote to you some what you said so we can understand your brilliance.
Wow Fawzia, youre so intelligent. May I inquire , are you a professor of logic at Harvard or Oxford? If so, Id love to visit you some time. Im pretty sure youll win this Quranist of the Year award. There is only one another nominee Geert Wilders (but I wouldnt like to propose to him).
I am a newbie here, I didn't say anything rude at all at first, simply gave my reasons for apostasy & rejecting even Quranist Islam. I am being taunted for my lack of intelligence there & scolded for lacking adequate knowledge-none of you guys wanted to object to his extreme rudeness to a newbie.
Yet, if I reply in a similar vein, due to others rudeness-I get more rudeness. )
Rejecting the Quran didn't come due to the Iranian Islamic Revolution, although I did veer extremely close to apostasy, as I have frankly stated, due to Iranian conditions. I did try to stay Muslim, albeit a Quranist Muslim. I however, felt that the Quran too has enough primitive or objectionable material.
As far as learning Arabic is concerned, yes I don't have the time right now to learn it. Other than reading the Quran, not much practical use comes out of learning that language-which is a sorry but true fact. As far as learning it to read the Quran is concerned, when we google Free minds & come to the Home page itself, I encounter an "invitation" to people of all religions-Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists etc to check out the Quran, God's final word(supposedly).
My Quranist cousin says that the Quran is the "condensed essence of all previous religions". Did she study Hebrew & Aramaic for Judaism & Christianity, Sanskrit for Hinduism, Pali & Prakrit for Buddhism etc? Certainly not.
If Allah claims to be for all the world, & if the Quran claims to be so easy to understand-both of which are claimed, it should be just as easy to understand through translations & I have read plenty.
If you were a Quranist, you?d never think junking hadith is a ?desperate? act. Quranists know the overwhelming evidence against acceptance of hadith. I don?t believe you, not that it matters.
When Wakas posts his article , I?m waiting to see your masterful logic and scholarly comments.Sure, you don't believe me. ) I am an extremely fair complexioned Iranian with hazel eyes, & while its obvious that I am not black(I'd have loved to be black btw, I like the balcks I know a lot) I can reasonably pass off as a both an European or from the mid East or Sauth Asia.
I never hide it from any Muslim that I have left the faith. I have been called everything from an evangelical Christian to a Jew to a Hindu to whatnot in response.
If they don't believe me when they see me(they are more likely to believe when I am with my family & siblings, than when I am out shopping with friends), how can I believe any Muslim to believe me online? ;D
Muslims I know find it impossible to accept that someone has chosen to leave their religion, out of absolute free choice & after reading the texts or even after reading the Quran- they either try to believe that the person wasn't Muslim in the first place, or else it must have been the trauma of some Islamist Revolution, someone might have had a truamatic childhood etc!
Yeah, hadith rejection does come from the fact that they were written many years later, but I have noticed that may Quranists reject them simply ased on the objectionable stuff they contain. Muhammad's multiple marriages, child bride, marriages to his daughter in law, violence on other faiths & the numerous misogynistic hadiths are where rejection springs from. Had Muhammad been presented as a Buddha or Jesus like guy, I wonder whether there would be this strong a need to reject his life stories, not that it matters for me too.
I have found enough in the Quran to reject it as well.
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The "Islamic" revolution has succeeded in making Islam the enemy of the people. People now associete Islam with the goverment that opresses them, tells them how to dress, etc.
Yeah sure, any Muslim who rejects the Quran is either lying & was never Muslim in the first place, or the rejection was based on Islamist movements in their country or(if its a woman) evil patriarchal practices in their so called Muslim family which has nothing to do with the Quran! yeah
Sure, the beginning of my apostasy was indeed the conditions in Iran, but I did make a thorough study of the Quran as well. As I said, aI don't have Ayaan Hirsi like stories to narrate, my family was extremely enlightened.
I'm sure Muslims will continue to deny that any non oppressed once Muslim female actually studied the Quran & rejected it based on its own merits & demerits! D
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Peace Tareq,
That is also my impression. Also, perhaps shia Islam, which has some really bizarre concepts, is part of the problem as well. But then, sunni Islam is far from perfect either..
Hahahahaha! ;D whatever
Difficult to make anyone believe if they insist on shutting their eyes to the fact!
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I am a newbie here, I didn't say anything rude at all at first, simply gave my reasons for apostasy & rejecting even Quranist Islam. I am being taunted for my lack of intelligence there & scolded for lacking adequate knowledge-none of you guys wanted to object to his extreme rudeness to a newbie.
First of all, you did say things that are rude, and somewhat racist, on the other thread.
Secondly, caveman doctor and dc2 and I all objected to abdulquran's rudeness on this thread. -
Fawzia, can I ask you a quick question. It's something I always wonder about ex-muslims. If you reject the idea that mohammed was divinely inspired to recite the Qur'an, do you have any thoughts on what you suppose his agenda or motives might have been in doing what he did or do you maybe believe he was mad for example?
It's something I always wonder about and I must admit, it's one of the main reasons I continue to believe the Qur'an. I just don't see for example why he didn't name jesus as the son of god in order to attract the christians to his ranks more easily or recount the jewish stories as they were written in their books like one about joseph or that eve was created from adam's rib or that God rested on the 7th day after creation etc. And why at the age of 40 (if we are to believe the reports) did he suddenly get the urge to call his people to monotheism even though he was surely aware of the hostilities he would face.
Genuine question - not criticizing you, just looking to hear your thoughts.
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I'm sure Muslims will continue to deny that any non oppressed once Muslim female actually studied the Quran & rejected it based on its own merits & demerits!
False, you can't generalise the stupidity of some individuals to say that every muslim person will do that. It might be better if you say that some people are like that, rather than Muslims as a group
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If Allah claims to be for all the world, & if the Quran claims to be so easy to understand-both of which are claimed, it should be just as easy to understand through translations & I have read plenty.
How can you be sure that those translators have not mistranslated? That and the fact that most Arabic words have multiple meanings, and the fact that your typical traditional Muslim translator translates with reference to hadiths of questionable authenticity.
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Yeah, hadith rejection does come from the fact that they were written many years later, but I have noticed that may Quranists reject them simply ased on the objectionable stuff they contain. Muhammad's multiple marriages, child bride, marriages to his daughter in law, violence on other faiths & the numerous misogynistic hadiths are where rejection springs from. Had Muhammad been presented as a Buddha or Jesus like guy, I wonder whether there would be this strong a need to reject his life stories, not that it matters for me too.
uh? parts of the Talmud present Jesus as a pig and his mother as a whore? Does that mean it is true?
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First of all, you did say things that are rude, and somewhat racist, on the other thread.
Secondly, caveman doctor and dc2 and I all objected to abdulquran's rudeness on this thread.Well, I apologise for all my rudeness, most of it unintentional.
Thanks for your & others objection to abdulquran. -
False, you can't generalise the stupidity of some individuals to say that every muslim person will do that. It might be better if you say that some people are like that, rather than Muslims as a group
I stand corrected, I will say some Muslims, or rather too many Muslims of my acquaintance have said this.
I am curious. Do post
I will eventually. I am a student, I have other commitments as well.
uh? parts of the Talmud present Jesus as a pig and his mother as a whore? Does that mean it is true?
I never aid that there aren't enough genuine reasons to reject hadiths, I wouldn't have beome a hadith rejector had I not found sufficient reasons. However, some Muslims of my acquaintance-online & offline who're turning Quranist do actually take this step more from the attempt to reject the obnoxious way Muhammad is portrayed in hadiths, rather than due to any genuine & extensive scholarship.
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Fawzia, can I ask you a quick question. It's something I always wonder about ex-muslims. If you reject the idea that mohammed was divinely inspired to recite the Qur'an, do you have any thoughts on what you suppose his agenda or motives might have been in doing what he did or do you maybe believe he was mad for example?
Genuine question - not criticizing you, just looking to hear your thoughts.
Well, for one thing, this enabled him to get multiple wives & get these wives to obey him, through divinely mandated revelations I am not even speaking of hadiths, simply Quran.
3330 O ye wives of the Prophet! Whosoever of you committeth manifest lewdness, the punishment for her will be doubled, and that is easy for Allah.
So we see even from the Quran that this person Muhammad is having multiple wives & they're supposedly getting threats from the Creator if they are lewd. Naturally, saying such stuff will make wives obedient & multiple wives & chaste wives is something Muhammad will get via claims of revelations.
3331 And whosoever of you is submissive unto Allah and His messenger and doeth right, We shall give her her reward twice over, and We have prepared for her a rich provision.
Again, via Allah Muhammad can get his wives to be submissive here, like he could get them to be chaste in the earlier verses.
Its like a carrot & stick policy, be lewd & God'll punish you & be submissive & He'll reward you. ;D
Anyone who has more than a single wife knows that managing more than one can be difficult & many men like "obedient" wives, of course, men hate "lewd" wives.
Claiming divine revelations helps his cause.
Next, Muhammad is interfering in others affairs via Allah.
3336 And it becometh not a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His messenger have decided an affair (for them), that they should (after that) claim any say in their affair; and whoso is rebellious to Allah and His messenger, he verily goeth astray in error manifest.
So Muhammad can poke his nose into everyone's affairs, with Allah on his side.
People like power & influence, which claiming to be the last Prophet is getting Muhammad.
Next, we see Allah is helping Muhammad marry his foster daughter in law, to outlaw the belief that people cannot marry their adopted son's wife.
This seems a convenient way of getting a woman, getting Allah to speak up.
3337 And when thou saidst unto him on whom Allah hath conferred favour and thou hast conferred favour Keep thy wife to thyself, and fear Allah. And thou didst hide in thy mind that which Allah was to bring to light, and thou didst fear mankind whereas Allah hath a better right that thou shouldst fear Him. So when Zeyd had performed that necessary formality (of divorce) from her, We gave her unto thee in marriage, so that (henceforth) there may be no sin for believers in respect of wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have performed the necessary formality (of release) from them. The commandment of Allah must be fulfilled.
Next, Muhammad is being told by Allah that all sorts of women are lawful for him to marry, but this si specially for him, not for other believers
3350 O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom God has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her; - this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess; - in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
These sexual excesses would make other wives, not to mention people angry-yet by claiming that Muhammad is a Prophet, he could get people to shut up & his wives to silently tolerate such behavior for fear of being tormented by Allah after death. D
Muhammad was not the first person to claim such revelations, nor the last. There's a guy called Joseph Smith in USA in the 19th century who made similar claims
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith,_Jr
There are many cult founders who use God as a convinient means of justifying their sexual excesses & perversions, Smith too had multiple wives via convenient revelations.
It's something I always wonder about and I must admit, it's one of the main reasons I continue to believe the Qur'an. I just don't see for example why he didn't name jesus as the son of god in order to attract the christians to his ranks more easily or recount the jewish stories as they were written in their books like one about joseph or that eve was created from adam's rib or that God rested on the 7th day after creation etc. And why at the age of 40 (if we are to believe the reports) did he suddenly get the urge to call his people to monotheism even though he was surely aware of the hostilities he would face.
Well had he accepted Jesus as God's son, he would've lost his special place as Last Prophet!
If God's Son came & went, & rose from the dead, & taught so many kind & good stuff, people would ask him what he was doing as a new Prophet!
There're many places in the Quran wherein Allah tells people to obey Muhammad. By demoting Jesus to another Prophet & making himself the last Prophet, he managed to raise his position & actually justify his claims that as Jesus was simply another Prophet, he was also sent.
As far as monotheism is concerned, he was impressed by monotheism & preferred it to polytheism, just like Commie leaders in the 20th century decided to preach & fight for atheism, getting rid of the last remaining God.
The fear of persecution didn't stop Joseph Stalin or Enver Hoxha from preaching their atheism, why should it stop Muhammad?
People like Alexander or Genghis Khan are only ruling for a short time, Muhammad by starting a new faith could occupy a special place in many lives for millennia! Add to that the sexual excesses justified by Allah, he had as much good reason for proclaiming himself Prophet as Joseph Smith etc had.