Unneccessary & unscientific concept of breast feeding "sisters" in the Quran
-
Wow Fauzia,
If there is one thing I remember from my aunts and uncles who worked in the middle East (we are south asians) is that the typical middle eastern is extremely racist against the 'brown-skinned' people. Did it ever occur to you that there are south asian muslims in the UK who are pressing for a secular democracy against some of these 'crazy' people.
http//www.spittoon.org/archives/3366
How can you paint an entire race/nation/ ethnic group as backward? It is nothing short of racist. There are Bangladeshi immigrants in the UK who are Muslim, many are traditional muslims, but they have nothing to do with terrorism. One of the victims of the subway bombings was a Bangladeshi girl in her early 20s whereas the bombers were ethnically Pakistani or west Indian.
A lot of darker skinned people face severe discrimination with respect to jobs and housing in the UK, but you haven't even considered that.
Well, non Muslim Indians, who do extremely well, are South Asians too.
Anyway, we all have our biases, our blind spots. Blaming Muslims is no better & no worse than blaming the evil whites for everything.
I am extremely supportive for anyone's efforts-Muslim or non Muslim for democracy, women's rights, gay rights etc.
-
What do you think is happening in Kashmir today, might I ask? they have been fighting for independence for nearly 2 decades now.
have you forgotten what happened in Bosnia? How can you say that non- Muslims are tolerant? No extremist group, regardless of professed religion, is tolerant, be it Al Qaeda, Shiv Sena, Lord's Army or whatever.
Every group does its best to protect its rights. Don't the Jews and Hindus and Christians do the same?
Do you dislike Islam, or do you dislike the practices of people who claim to follow Islam?
Pakistani soldiers slaughtered and shot innocent Bangladeshis 'in the name of God,' during the 1971 liberation war. Does that mean that Islam is bad? Or that the Pakistani leadership and army of that time were war criminals?
Forget only Kashmir, Muslims are fighting for independence from Southern Thailand & Southern Philippines to everywhere else. There's daily murder & mayhem in all these places & many more.Muslim minorties in Thailand & Philippines have full equality, yet they fight, yet in Malaysia, which discriminates even legally against non Muslims, the Chinese & Indians live peacefully & are still richer than Malays, despite decades of discrimination.
http//thereligionofpeace.com/
They felt it perfectly alright to ethnic cleanse all the non Muslims from the huge area of Pakistan Pakistan & declare it a Muslim nation, yet tiny Israel with its growing Muslim population is the source of all evil in the world.
If there's no Southern Thailand, Southern Phiippines or Kashmir, they fight like the Algerians or like Pakistanis with Baluchistanis.
Have the Pakistanis freed the Baluch folks, & the Turks & Iraqis the Kurds? We can talk about other places then.
Sure all religions have extremist elements, yet Islam has way too many.Thats' a sorry but true fact.
Just like its true that the avarage Turkish woman is better than the avarage Afghan woman.
-
First of all please mind your language.
What makes you think I am Pakistani? Have I said anything explicitly or implicitly to make you think so?Well, I didn't say you're Pakistani, but your profile says that you're British. You claimed that cousin marriages don't happen amongst the Brits-well it happens amongst the Muslims in Britain.
-
Sure all religions have extremist elements, yet Islam has way too many.Thats' a sorry but true fact.
Just like its true that the avarage Turkish woman is better than the avarage Afghan woman.
which is why many of us on this forum do not think they are real muslims, cause they aren't following the teachings of the Quran, but choose to follow baseless hadiths and the dictates of their corrupt leaders.
-
You are being way to judgement. Tell me why should Quran discourage cousin marriages have you got statistics of every cousin marriage and every defect they have compared to people who marry outside of cousins and defects they have? I assume you don?t until you do please prove your evidence.
Here's data from a study
http//www.naitazi.com/2008/02/15/uk-leaders-question-british-pakistani-cousin-marriage-practice-after-shariah-flap/
A 2002 study by the U.S. National Society of Genetic Counselors found that most parents face a 3 to 4 percent risk of producing a child with a serious birth defect or genetic problem while closely related cousins who have children face a risk increased by approximately 2 percent.But the experience of researchers at Bradford Teaching Hospital suggests a more serious situation.
The hospital, which serves a community with a large Pakistani population, reports an unusually high rate of inherited gene disorders. Researchers estimate the rate of birth defects is 10 times higher than in the general population, spokeswoman Leanne Wilson said in a statement.
High rates of deafness, degenerative nerve disorders and children born with small heads and learning disabilities have been found, she said. The statement said marriage patterns among Pakistanis are ?likely to be a major factor? in the rate.
Alastair Kent, director of the Genetic Interest Group in London, said the study was important because it quantified the elevated risk. ?The research is quite robust and it was peer reviewed,? he said.There, you see? In a single generation of cousin marriages, problems increase only from 2 to 3-4%, with repeated such behavior, Pakistanis in Britain have 10 times such problems!
Sure, the Quran doesn't compel cousin marriages, but it would've helped had it condemned it, like that non issue milk sister thingie.
Many do claim that the Quran is special as a science book, or that it has advanced scientific knowledge-well then this shoud've been there.
-
which is why many of us on this forum do not think they are real muslims, cause they aren't following the teachings of the Quran, but choose to follow baseless hadiths and the dictates of their corrupt leaders.
I never said they aren't, and South Asian muslims do 'extremely well' too.
What is your point?Well as it happens currently, Muslim nations & soceties have too many religiously intolerant & misogynistic folks, compared to non Muslim soceties, ditto with South Asian Muslims v non Muslims economic situation.
I do think that, apart from the Quran also, Islam has serious issues. I am no Jew, & I find the OT quite a horried book, but although the OT clearly mandates stonings, no Jew, even ME Jews have indulged in such acts for the last two millennia.
I however see many Muslims & Islamic nations indulging in all sorts of barbaric & vile acts, both based on Quran & based on hadiths.
I don't think limiting oneself to the Quran will solve all the problems.
I admit that I do have my biases, like anyone else.To say I am not too fond of Islam is an understatement.
-
I don't think limiting oneself to the Quran will solve all the problems.
I admit that I do have my biases, like anyone else.To say I am not too fond of Islam is an understatement.
it's just opinion, those aren't good reasons. you are most entitled to your opinion, but that won't convince anyone that you are right
-
Well as it happens currently, Muslim nations & soceties have too many religiously intolerant & misogynistic folks, compared to non Muslim soceties, ditto with South Asian Muslims v non Muslims economic situation.
it is an unfortunate situation, but you can't blame the Quran for that? You have to blame the system that those people have developed. Btw, in India, in some backward rural places, the Hindus there still beat up and burn women as witches. I don't know of any Muslim place that does the same.
Does that mean that Hindus are a backward people? Of course not, it just means that the system in that place is.
-
Muslim minorties in Thailand & Philippines have full equality
http//thereligionofpeace.com/
That's a lie. I didn't expect much from someone who uses "thereligionofpeace.com" as a source. I don't have time now, I will expose your lies later. You know absolutely nothing about the history of Thai Muslims and the region.
-
it is an unfortunate situation, but you can't blame the Quran for that? You have to blame the system that those people have developed. Btw, in India, in some backward rural places, the Hindus there still beat up and burn women as witches. I don't know of any Muslim place that does the same.
Does that mean that Hindus are a backward people? Of course not, it just means that the system in that place is.
You really didn't know? I'm delighted to enlighten you. Meet Fayza Falih of Saudi Arabia, condemned to death for the practice of witchcraft, NOT by backward rural folks in some godforsaken corner, but by the legal system in place in oil rich Saudi!
Yes, she was legally condemned as a witch, not even by some illiterate mob! Just like someone can be legally condemned for rape, Saudi's condemning for witchcraft! ;D
http//www.google.co.in/url?q=http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fawza_Falih&ei=kB3xSo_pO5TKsQO00O3dDg&sa=X&oi=spellmeleon_result&resnum=1&ct=result&ved=0CAgQhgIwAA&usg=AFQjCNEttt08jfETD6OfNz3bJAHggyYmTA
-
You really didn't know? I'm delighted to enlighten you. Meet Fayza Falih of Saudi Arabia, condemned to death for the practice of witchcraft, NOT by backward rural folks in some godforsaken corner, but by the legal system in place in oil rich Saudi!
Yes, she was legally condemned as a witch, not even by some illiterate mob! Just like someone can be legally condemned for rape, Saudi's condemning for witchcraft! ;D
http//www.google.co.in/url?q=http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fawza_Falih&ei=kB3xSo_pO5TKsQO00O3dDg&sa=X&oi=spellmeleon_result&resnum=1&ct=result&ved=0CAgQhgIwAA&usg=AFQjCNEttt08jfETD6OfNz3bJAHggyYmTA
and that , in your opinion, represents what Islam truly is?
-
and that , in your opinion, represents what Islam truly is?
I didn't say that, did I? However, I do think that the Quran's claims about all sorts of supernatural creatures like jinns is part of the problem, here's a Saudi family which has sued a jinn, alleging harassment.
http//edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/07/13/saudia.arabia.genie.suit/index.html
Once the Quran speaks of stuff like jinns, obviously people can speak of jinn harassment, if jinns can help Solomon build castles in the Quran itself, surely it can harass them too? ;D
And from there they can have other supernatural & dangerous beliefs as well.
As Voltaire said, "Those that can get you to believe in absurdities can get you to commit atrocities."
If someone is taught to believe in jinns & jinn possession, from there its a small step to accuse some jinn of harassment, accuse some poor woman of harnessing jinns etc.
-
@Fawzia. Can we keep this on topic? Most of us here do not subscribe to Sunni or Shia ideologies, and these do not really apply to us.
Can you tell us more about the problems see/ issues you have with Quran only/ Quranism/ Hadith rejection or other relevant topics instead?
-
Sure, the Quran doesn't compel cousin marriages, but it would've helped had it condemned it, like that non issue milk sister thingie.
I think that having milk sisters/brothers used to be an extremely common occurrence, 1000+ years ago. There was no formula, so someone had to be breastfeeding the baby. Now we have formula.
It would have been a big issue back then and be very commonplace. -
Dear Fawzia
Let?s see the Quran does not claim to be a book of science, regardless of what others believe of it. So no it shouldn?t have been there to suit your desire because it?s not a science book. So your claim that the Quran fails, simply because people say that ?it has advanced scientific knowledge? is a baseless argument. There is no room for conjecture to base reality on. After all, science isn?t about conjecture it?s about facts and the fact is The Quran isn?t a science book.
Again you fail to address my question in regards to milk bro?s and sisters and focus on cousin marriages.
You have selective choices or possibly reading. maybe that?s why you?re hung up about cousin marriages. Maybe you personally married your cousin and are dealing with trauma, God knows. The risks are ?likely? to be increased but not definitely. That?s what the study said that you quoted to me. Likelihood means possibility. It?s a possibility i will marry a healthy man and have defected kids, it?s possible i marry someone with a disability and have no defected kids it?s also possible on both end of the equation with a cousin or a repeat cousin.
There are arguments against your claim, like i told you earlier read about Dr Arno Motulsky.
Besides the study link you told me was about an ?inherited gene disorder? do you know much about transitions of genes? It could be recessive or dominant or sex-linked. If they?re dominant they don?t need the partner to be a carrier so that person could marry a non Pakistani or a Pakistani unrelated and still carry the inherited gene disorder based on the type it is and its dominance and transition it to their offspring even if her or his partner is a carrier or not, it may or may not have influence. It?s not as simple as you have the disorder your child will have it.
I think that having milk sisters/brothers used to be an extremely common occurrence, 1000+ years ago. There was no formula, so someone had to be breastfeeding the baby. Now we have formula.
It would have been a big issue back then and be very commonplace.it's not as popular now, true. i personally know someone who's mother breastfed milk sisters. Dunno much about poorer countries what happens there.
Peace.
-
Let?s see the Quran does not claim to be a book of science, regardless of what others believe of it. So no it shouldn?t have been there to suit your desire because it?s not a science book. So your claim that the Quran fails, simply because people say that ?it has advanced scientific knowledge? is a baseless argument. There is no room for conjecture to base reality on. After all, science isn?t about conjecture it?s about facts and the fact is The Quran isn?t a science book.
And what science is? It is to realize, know, comprehend and understand the fact that already exists. And where these facts exist/relate to? Our bodies/selves and the Universe around us. And this science i.e. awareness of the facts is a gradual process. The facts already existing keep coming to our notice/comprehension and we start calling them scientific facts. Qur'aan informed
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/002.%20Meanings%20and%20Tabweeb%20of%20words/003.%20Arzal%20il%20Umre%20Alzheimer's%20disease/020.%2041.53%20Show%20them%20knowledge.gif
"We will keep making it visible to the eyes of those who do not accept Quran, the signs/knowledge in the Universe and in their own bodies till it becomes evident for them that this Quran is a statement of proven fact" {Refer 4153}
The Grand Quran has informed that Allah will keep revealing, the knowledge about the universe and human body, and it will become manifest to the people that the Quran is a statement of proven fact. Why would it become manifest that the Quran is a statement of proven fact when man sees/perceives new knowledge about universe and human body? If the things mentioned in a book written earlier in time and space are subsequently found a scientific fact only then it is evident to people that the Book is really a statement of proven facts and not conjectural and presumptive.The fact is that none of the so called scientific books are more scientific than the Grand Qur'aan., "scientific" means a proven fact, not effected in time and space.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/002.%20Meanings%20and%20Tabweeb%20of%20words/003.%20Arzal%20il%20Umre%20Alzheimer's%20disease/03.%20Arzal%20Umar.htm -
As Voltaire said, "Those that can get you to believe in absurdities can get you to commit atrocities."
If someone is taught to believe in jinns & jinn possession, from there its a small step to accuse some jinn of harassment, accuse some poor woman of harnessing jinns etc.
It's only "Muslims" who believe in absurdities? Seriously?
It's HUMANITY that has absurd views. They will take any book to justify their nonsensical convictions. What about the people who don't follow a book, yet commit some rather heinous crimes? What's their excuse?Taught to believe in jinns & possession? Can you bring forward evidence from the quran for such beliefs. Or do you even have any proof?
So using your 'logic' (yes we'll go with that logic) anything anyone says/believes about fawzia must be true. There's no need to verify claims/beliefs or anything. I can then say that Fawzia loves eating babies, and mention a story about how people from your race ate babies... Correlation = causation. This is logic Boy are you clutching at straws, whatever it takes to justify your bigotry.
-
@Fawzia. Can we keep this on topic? Most of us here do not subscribe to Sunni or Shia ideologies, and these do not really apply to us.
Can you tell us more about the problems see/ issues you have with Quran only/ Quranism/ Hadith rejection or other relevant topics instead?
Jinni isn't a Shia-Sunni belief, its right there in the Quran, Quran says that jinns have magical powers, can lead people astray etc.Obviously anyone believing, really believing in such bull****, or similar such magical creatures in other religions, can be religiously motivated to persecute others based on supernatural nonsense.
The reason Christians have largely left such behavior is that Xtianity, even the Bible received way too many hammer blows of modernity. Christians in Africa still persecute witches.
So do other backward people.
The reason Saudi Government can take such legal steps like condemning innocent folk for witch craft is because such supernatural nonsense like jinns is still drilled into them via their extensive religious education & culture, & the Quran's stories of jinns are no help, jinns isn't a Sunni Wahhabi invention, its a Quranic belief as well.
Anyway, I will deal with further problems that I have with the Quran.