Hello Folks, Fawzia here! I was a Quranist for 10 months.
-
Fawzia, can I ask you a quick question. It's something I always wonder about ex-muslims. If you reject the idea that mohammed was divinely inspired to recite the Qur'an, do you have any thoughts on what you suppose his agenda or motives might have been in doing what he did or do you maybe believe he was mad for example?
It's something I always wonder about and I must admit, it's one of the main reasons I continue to believe the Qur'an. I just don't see for example why he didn't name jesus as the son of god in order to attract the christians to his ranks more easily or recount the jewish stories as they were written in their books like one about joseph or that eve was created from adam's rib or that God rested on the 7th day after creation etc. And why at the age of 40 (if we are to believe the reports) did he suddenly get the urge to call his people to monotheism even though he was surely aware of the hostilities he would face.
Genuine question - not criticizing you, just looking to hear your thoughts.
-
I'm sure Muslims will continue to deny that any non oppressed once Muslim female actually studied the Quran & rejected it based on its own merits & demerits!
False, you can't generalise the stupidity of some individuals to say that every muslim person will do that. It might be better if you say that some people are like that, rather than Muslims as a group
-
If Allah claims to be for all the world, & if the Quran claims to be so easy to understand-both of which are claimed, it should be just as easy to understand through translations & I have read plenty.
How can you be sure that those translators have not mistranslated? That and the fact that most Arabic words have multiple meanings, and the fact that your typical traditional Muslim translator translates with reference to hadiths of questionable authenticity.
-
Yeah, hadith rejection does come from the fact that they were written many years later, but I have noticed that may Quranists reject them simply ased on the objectionable stuff they contain. Muhammad's multiple marriages, child bride, marriages to his daughter in law, violence on other faiths & the numerous misogynistic hadiths are where rejection springs from. Had Muhammad been presented as a Buddha or Jesus like guy, I wonder whether there would be this strong a need to reject his life stories, not that it matters for me too.
uh? parts of the Talmud present Jesus as a pig and his mother as a whore? Does that mean it is true?
-
First of all, you did say things that are rude, and somewhat racist, on the other thread.
Secondly, caveman doctor and dc2 and I all objected to abdulquran's rudeness on this thread.Well, I apologise for all my rudeness, most of it unintentional.
Thanks for your & others objection to abdulquran. -
False, you can't generalise the stupidity of some individuals to say that every muslim person will do that. It might be better if you say that some people are like that, rather than Muslims as a group
I stand corrected, I will say some Muslims, or rather too many Muslims of my acquaintance have said this.
I am curious. Do post
I will eventually. I am a student, I have other commitments as well.
uh? parts of the Talmud present Jesus as a pig and his mother as a whore? Does that mean it is true?
I never aid that there aren't enough genuine reasons to reject hadiths, I wouldn't have beome a hadith rejector had I not found sufficient reasons. However, some Muslims of my acquaintance-online & offline who're turning Quranist do actually take this step more from the attempt to reject the obnoxious way Muhammad is portrayed in hadiths, rather than due to any genuine & extensive scholarship.
-
Fawzia, can I ask you a quick question. It's something I always wonder about ex-muslims. If you reject the idea that mohammed was divinely inspired to recite the Qur'an, do you have any thoughts on what you suppose his agenda or motives might have been in doing what he did or do you maybe believe he was mad for example?
Genuine question - not criticizing you, just looking to hear your thoughts.
Well, for one thing, this enabled him to get multiple wives & get these wives to obey him, through divinely mandated revelations I am not even speaking of hadiths, simply Quran.
3330 O ye wives of the Prophet! Whosoever of you committeth manifest lewdness, the punishment for her will be doubled, and that is easy for Allah.
So we see even from the Quran that this person Muhammad is having multiple wives & they're supposedly getting threats from the Creator if they are lewd. Naturally, saying such stuff will make wives obedient & multiple wives & chaste wives is something Muhammad will get via claims of revelations.
3331 And whosoever of you is submissive unto Allah and His messenger and doeth right, We shall give her her reward twice over, and We have prepared for her a rich provision.
Again, via Allah Muhammad can get his wives to be submissive here, like he could get them to be chaste in the earlier verses.
Its like a carrot & stick policy, be lewd & God'll punish you & be submissive & He'll reward you. ;D
Anyone who has more than a single wife knows that managing more than one can be difficult & many men like "obedient" wives, of course, men hate "lewd" wives.
Claiming divine revelations helps his cause.
Next, Muhammad is interfering in others affairs via Allah.
3336 And it becometh not a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His messenger have decided an affair (for them), that they should (after that) claim any say in their affair; and whoso is rebellious to Allah and His messenger, he verily goeth astray in error manifest.
So Muhammad can poke his nose into everyone's affairs, with Allah on his side.
People like power & influence, which claiming to be the last Prophet is getting Muhammad.
Next, we see Allah is helping Muhammad marry his foster daughter in law, to outlaw the belief that people cannot marry their adopted son's wife.
This seems a convenient way of getting a woman, getting Allah to speak up.
3337 And when thou saidst unto him on whom Allah hath conferred favour and thou hast conferred favour Keep thy wife to thyself, and fear Allah. And thou didst hide in thy mind that which Allah was to bring to light, and thou didst fear mankind whereas Allah hath a better right that thou shouldst fear Him. So when Zeyd had performed that necessary formality (of divorce) from her, We gave her unto thee in marriage, so that (henceforth) there may be no sin for believers in respect of wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have performed the necessary formality (of release) from them. The commandment of Allah must be fulfilled.
Next, Muhammad is being told by Allah that all sorts of women are lawful for him to marry, but this si specially for him, not for other believers
3350 O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom God has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her; - this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess; - in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
These sexual excesses would make other wives, not to mention people angry-yet by claiming that Muhammad is a Prophet, he could get people to shut up & his wives to silently tolerate such behavior for fear of being tormented by Allah after death. D
Muhammad was not the first person to claim such revelations, nor the last. There's a guy called Joseph Smith in USA in the 19th century who made similar claims
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith,_Jr
There are many cult founders who use God as a convinient means of justifying their sexual excesses & perversions, Smith too had multiple wives via convenient revelations.
It's something I always wonder about and I must admit, it's one of the main reasons I continue to believe the Qur'an. I just don't see for example why he didn't name jesus as the son of god in order to attract the christians to his ranks more easily or recount the jewish stories as they were written in their books like one about joseph or that eve was created from adam's rib or that God rested on the 7th day after creation etc. And why at the age of 40 (if we are to believe the reports) did he suddenly get the urge to call his people to monotheism even though he was surely aware of the hostilities he would face.
Well had he accepted Jesus as God's son, he would've lost his special place as Last Prophet!
If God's Son came & went, & rose from the dead, & taught so many kind & good stuff, people would ask him what he was doing as a new Prophet!
There're many places in the Quran wherein Allah tells people to obey Muhammad. By demoting Jesus to another Prophet & making himself the last Prophet, he managed to raise his position & actually justify his claims that as Jesus was simply another Prophet, he was also sent.
As far as monotheism is concerned, he was impressed by monotheism & preferred it to polytheism, just like Commie leaders in the 20th century decided to preach & fight for atheism, getting rid of the last remaining God.
The fear of persecution didn't stop Joseph Stalin or Enver Hoxha from preaching their atheism, why should it stop Muhammad?
People like Alexander or Genghis Khan are only ruling for a short time, Muhammad by starting a new faith could occupy a special place in many lives for millennia! Add to that the sexual excesses justified by Allah, he had as much good reason for proclaiming himself Prophet as Joseph Smith etc had.
-
Yeah, sure my logic is subjective, so is everyone else's whenit comes to something like the Quran or any other holy book. Its not mathematics. A Muslim guy who adores the Quran & someone like Sebastian Faulks who finds it devoid of ethical innovation or originality, or an atheist like Sam Harris, who finds it among the mot violent of religious books(he claims to have read the religious texts of all faiths) all are entitled to their own opinions-there's no way to decide that only one opinion is correct, as I said, coz this isn't mathematics & no one can be declared right or wrong.
Disagreed.
You?re entitled to your rejection. Notice I never called you on it. You think cousin-marrying should be mentioned. Ok, that?s not a problem with me. That?s your business what you believe but you made some statements which a person of integrity should defend. Are you or are you not a person of integrity?
You claim that those who leave hadith are desperate to salvage their faith, did you not? Therefore as a person of integrity, I challenge you to show me how desperate I am? Because I don?t believe for a second you were EVER a Quranist. Reading your last paragraph below proves my point.Cousin marriages btw, although certainly not my only or even primary objection to the Quran, were an important issue for me, coz it was one of the very first stuff which made me notice that if a book claims to be from the Creator, it should have such knowledge & declare it out loud, however a book by human hads would reflect the prejudices, hangups & prevailing customs of its time, & not banning repeated cousin weddings, but banning marriages to milk sisters should more of a primitive society reflecting their beliefs.
Ok, that?s reasoning. Other people are entitled to theirs.
I will surely post my other objections later.
Yeah, also don?t forget to tell us how racially deficient Muslims are, to kinda strengthen your point. That really helps keep us sweet.
Hey, I wasn't at all the one who began this sort of rude name calling! D
No, you?re a racist. That?s miles above mere ?name-calling?.
Look at the post of someone else here, who began by being extremely rude to me This is abdul quran's looong post, claiming how incredible stupid I am, for rejecting even the Quran,
I am a newbie here, I didn't say anything rude at all at first, simply gave my reasons for apostasy & rejecting even Quranist Islam. I am being taunted for my lack of intelligence there & scolded for lacking adequate knowledge-none of you guys wanted to object to his extreme rudeness to a newbie.
Yet, if I reply in a similar vein, due to others rudeness-I get more rudeness.  LOL.
Don?t be ridiculous.
I called you out for one reason and one reason only your ATTITUDE. You think Quranists are being apologetic by changing ?beat? to ?separate? and we?re desperate to salvage our faith. THAT?S why I replied to you. I don?t give a monkeys what you reject, that?s your business. But if you?re gonna tell us we?re playing around with the language, you better have something better than ?I spoke to arabs?. That?s the kind of reasoning which would severely cast you into disrepute.Rejecting the Quran didn't come due to the Iranian Islamic Revolution, although I did veer extremely close to apostasy, as I have frankly stated, due to Iranian conditions. I did try to stay Muslim, albeit a Quranist Muslim. I however, felt that the Quran too has enough primitive or objectionable material.
Oh so you found Quranism appealing then? Tell me, why did you say junking hadith is a ?desparate attempt to salvage faith?. Were you one of the desperate then? What arguments did you employ in this desperation?
As far as learning Arabic is concerned, yes I don't have the time right now to learn it. Other than reading the Quran, not much practical use comes out of learning that language-which is a sorry but true fact. As far as learning it to read the Quran is concerned, when we google Free minds & come to the Home page itself, I encounter an "invitation" to people of all religions-Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists etc to check out the Quran, God's final word(supposedly).
So now you have no TIME to learn it? I see. A few days ago it was just beneath you. Good change of tactic there.
So tell me, is it a decent thing to do to call Quranists ?apologists? when you don?t know and refuse to learn Arabic? Is that ?rude? you think to call us ?desperate to salvage our faith?? Don?t run from answering this, ok.My Quranist cousin says that the Quran is the "condensed essence of all previous religions". Did she study Hebrew & Aramaic for Judaism & Christianity, Sanskrit for Hinduism, Pali & Prakrit for Buddhism etc? Certainly not.
Oh so now you have Quranist FAMILY members? Wow?.
And what has your Quranist cousin have to do with me? I never said crap about ?essence of all previous religions?. I don?t use any ?previous? in my engagement with the Quran.
During these 10 months when you became a Quranist, were you comatose? If so, everything would make sense.If Allah claims to be for all the world, & if the Quran claims to be so easy to understand-both of which are claimed, it should be just as easy to understand through translations & I have read plenty.
What does ease of understanding have to do with correctness of translation? A concept may be easy but there could be a ton of diversionary material covering it. Funny how an ex-QURANIST doesn?t understand this.
Sure, you don't believe me.   I am an extremely fair complexioned Iranian with hazel eyes, & while its obvious that I am not black(I'd have loved to be black btw, I like the balcks I know a lot) I can reasonably pass off as a both an European or from the mid East or Sauth Asia.
Irrrelevant.
I never hide it from any Muslim that I have left the faith. I have been called everything from an evangelical Christian to a Jew to a Hindu to whatnot in response.
If they don't believe me when they see me(they are more likely to believe when I am with my family & siblings, than when I am out shopping with friends), how can I believe any Muslim to believe me online? ;D
Repeat Do not give a monkeys what you are.
Only care that you defend your remarks about Quranists and your views.Muslims I know find it impossible to accept that someone has chosen to leave their religion, out of absolute free choice & after reading the texts or even after reading the Quran- they either try to believe that the person wasn't Muslim in the first place, or else it must have been the trauma of some Islamist Revolution, someone might have had a truamatic childhood etc!
Or a self-hating racist who needs to find a fresh, dissociated identity. Kinda like Buffalo Bill in Silence of the Lambs in a manner of speaking.
Yeah, hadith rejection does come from the fact that they were written many years later, but I have noticed that may Quranists reject them simply ased on the objectionable stuff they contain. Muhammad's multiple marriages, child bride, marriages to his daughter in law, violence on other faiths & the numerous misogynistic hadiths are where rejection springs from. Had Muhammad been presented as a Buddha or Jesus like guy, I wonder whether there would be this strong a need to reject his life stories, not that it matters for me too.
GOOD. Now we have something to work with. I will counter-interrogate this in my next post. Please go there.
-
I never aid that there aren't enough genuine reasons to reject hadiths, I wouldn't have beome a hadith rejector had I not found sufficient reasons. However, some Muslims of my acquaintance-online & offline who're turning Quranist do actually take this step more from the attempt to reject the obnoxious way Muhammad is portrayed in hadiths, rather than due to any genuine & extensive scholarship.
why does it matter what reasons they choose? The important question is, are there genuine reasons to reject hadiths? If there are, then we should. If other people have other personal subjective reasons to do the same, it's their personal business. It's not relevant
-
Yeah, hadith rejection does come from the fact that they were written many years later, but I have noticed that may Quranists reject them simply ased on the objectionable stuff they contain. Muhammad's multiple marriages, child bride, marriages to his daughter in law, violence on other faiths & the numerous misogynistic hadiths are where rejection springs from. Had Muhammad been presented as a Buddha or Jesus like guy, I wonder whether there would be this strong a need to reject his life stories, not that it matters for me too.
I have found enough in the Quran to reject it as well.
Firstly, whatever you reject from Q uran is no concern of mine. I am now interested in your statements about rejection of hadith. I have for you a few questions
- Do you find the Quran supportive of rejection of hadith?
- These ?objectionable? hadith, by what standards do Quranists reject them?
- Why did YOU become a Quranist?
That?s all for now. Too many questions allow for digression. Lets keep it nice and tight.
-
Well, for one thing, this enabled him to get multiple wives & get these wives to obey him, through divinely mandated revelations I am not even speaking of hadiths, simply Quran.
3330 O ye wives of the Prophet! Whosoever of you committeth manifest lewdness, the punishment for her will be doubled, and that is easy for Allah.
So we see even from the Quran that this person Muhammad is having multiple wives & they're supposedly getting threats from the Creator if they are lewd. Naturally, saying such stuff will make wives obedient & multiple wives & chaste wives is something Muhammad will get via claims of revelations.
3331 And whosoever of you is submissive unto Allah and His messenger and doeth right, We shall give her her reward twice over, and We have prepared for her a rich provision.
Again, via Allah Muhammad can get his wives to be submissive here, like he could get them to be chaste in the earlier verses.
Its like a carrot & stick policy, be lewd & God'll punish you & be submissive & He'll reward you. ;DWow, you were a Quranist for 10 months and this is what you came up with? I think we need to change ?Quranist of the Year? to ?Comatose Quranist of the Year?.
First and foremost, 33/30 is talking about MANIFEST LEWDNESS. Lewdness is not disobedience. 33/30 is telling them, that if they are immoral, their punishment is doubled. It never says obey your husband. It never gives Muhammad the authority to punish them either. They are simply mothers to believers and so hold a higher moral standing.
33/31 is talking about ?Allah and his MESSENGER?. I dunno if this is a ?desperate attempt to salvage my faith? (by using Quran to explain Quran) or whatever but the MESSENGER only judges by the Quran (4?/65, 4/105) so when the woman obeys the messenger here, we?re not talking about Muhammad?s whims and fancies. You may object by saying ?well Muhammad authored Quran too? so I will counterpose the question to you ?then why doesn?t it tell these ladies ?don?t ever reject him for sex? or ?always obey whatever he asks?. The Quran NEVER serves Muhammad?s whims and fancies.
Your 10 month Quranist ?tour of duty? needs a little touch up story there, Fawzia. -
I never aid that there aren't enough genuine reasons to reject hadiths, I wouldn't have beome a hadith rejector had I not found sufficient reasons. However, some Muslims of my acquaintance-online & offline who're turning Quranist do actually take this step more from the attempt to reject the obnoxious way Muhammad is portrayed in hadiths, rather than due to any genuine & extensive scholarship.
Please tell us
-
What are genuine reasons to reject hadith?
-
What is 'genuine and extensive scholarship'? An example would be good.
-
-
Wow, you were a Quranist for 10 months and this is what you came up with? I think we need to change ?Quranist of the Year? to ?Comatose Quranist of the Year?.
First and foremost, 33/30 is talking about MANIFEST LEWDNESS. Lewdness is not disobedience. 33/30 is telling them, that if they are immoral, their punishment is doubled. It never says obey your husband. It never gives Muhammad the authority to punish them either. They are simply mothers to believers and so hold a higher moral standing.
33/31 is talking about ?Allah and his MESSENGER?. I dunno if this is a ?desperate attempt to salvage my faith? (by using Quran to explain Quran) or whatever but the MESSENGER only judges by the Quran (4?/65, 4/105) so when the woman obeys the messenger here, we?re not talking about Muhammad?s whims and fancies. You may object by saying ?well Muhammad authored Quran too? so I will counterpose the question to you ?then why doesn?t it tell these ladies ?don?t ever reject him for sex? or ?always obey whatever he asks?. The Quran NEVER serves Muhammad?s whims and fancies.
Your 10 month Quranist ?tour of duty? needs a little touch up story there, Fawzia.Muslims I know, in my daily life as well as online are usually as full of insults as ever, if not outright death threats, if someone should reject their "glorious book." ;D
-
Muslims I know, in my daily life as well as online are usually as full of insults as ever, if not outright death threats, if someone should reject their "glorious book." ;D
Lol, no one gives a toss what you accept or reject but your reading of 33/30-31 is LAUGHABLE. As Jack says, you're clutching at straws and it shows. I await your rebuttal to my answer (if you got time to scrape one up despite your busy schedule).
-
Muslims I know, in my daily life as well as online are usually as full of insults as ever, if not outright death threats, if someone should reject their "glorious book." ;D
I smell contradiction
In addition, while my life has been quite free from discrimination(I don't have anyAyaan Hirsi Ali type sob stories) & my parents were fully accepting of my apostasy & most Muslims too haven't harassed me in anyway for leaving Islam-a very unpleasant incident had happened to an aunt of mine, which I felt was due to the Quran. That forced me to finally leave Islam altogether.
-
I smell contradiction
No contradiction at all.
First I said,
In addition, while my life has been quite free from discrimination(I don't have anyAyaan Hirsi Ali type sob stories) & my parents were fully accepting of my apostasy & most Muslims too haven't harassed me in anyway for leaving Islam-a very unpleasant incident had happened to an aunt of mine, which I felt was due to the Quran. That forced me to finally leave Islam altogether.
I said most Muslims, not all Muslims. Besides, I wouldn't exactly call somone trying to insult me out of an internet forum as "harassment". I have received more than one death threat on the net as well.
Offline, I've received no death threats, although many tried to talk me into accepting Islam back, some tried to ridicule my intelligence, education etc into trying to make me accept Islam again.
But then, that too is hardly harassment-I believe everyone has the right to proselytize, even atheists & polytheistic idolators,& however much I dislike Islam, I woudn't deny them this right. And everyone, including Muslims have the right to be rude.
-
I smell contradiction
Lets not forget the change in the attitude to Arabic. At first it was a totally racist attitude and now its a whiny 'but i dont have the time', lol.
You know how it is with these fakes once they're exposed, Sarah.
-
Fawzia you indicated a mostly pleasant experience yet now you state "in my daily life as well as online are usually as full of insults". Insults are not considered pleasant.
Lets not forget the change in the attitude to Arabic. At first it was a totally racist attitude and now its a whiny 'but i dont have the time', lol.
You know how it is with these fakes once they're exposed, Sarah.
too true.. Makes me wonder actually what brings a person with no interest in muslims and islam to a place like this?