Unneccessary & unscientific concept of breast feeding "sisters" in the Quran

sarah2505

@Fawzia. Can we keep this on topic? Most of us here do not subscribe to Sunni or Shia ideologies, and these do not really apply to us.

Can you tell us more about the problems see/ issues you have with Quran only/ Quranism/ Hadith rejection or other relevant topics instead?

aynur

Sure, the Quran doesn't compel cousin marriages, but it would've helped had it condemned it, like that non issue milk sister thingie.

I think that having milk sisters/brothers used to be an extremely common occurrence, 1000+ years ago. There was no formula, so someone had to be breastfeeding the baby. Now we have formula.
It would have been a big issue back then and be very commonplace.

SarahY

Dear Fawzia

Let?s see the Quran does not claim to be a book of science, regardless of what others believe of it. So no it shouldn?t have been there to suit your desire because it?s not a science book. So your claim that the Quran fails, simply because people say that ?it has advanced scientific knowledge? is a baseless argument. There is no room for conjecture to base reality on. After all, science isn?t about conjecture it?s about facts and the fact is The Quran isn?t a science book.

Again you fail to address my question in regards to milk bro?s and sisters and focus on cousin marriages.

You have selective choices or possibly reading. maybe that?s why you?re hung up about cousin marriages. Maybe you personally married your cousin and are dealing with trauma, God knows. The risks are ?likely? to be increased but not definitely. That?s what the study said that you quoted to me. Likelihood means possibility. It?s a possibility i will marry a healthy man and have defected kids, it?s possible i marry someone with a disability and have no defected kids it?s also possible on both end of the equation with a cousin or a repeat cousin.

There are arguments against your claim, like i told you earlier read about Dr Arno Motulsky.

Besides the study link you told me was about an ?inherited gene disorder? do you know much about transitions of genes? It could be recessive or dominant or sex-linked. If they?re dominant they don?t need the partner to be a carrier so that person could marry a non Pakistani or a Pakistani unrelated and still carry the inherited gene disorder based on the type it is and its dominance and transition it to their offspring even if her or his partner is a carrier or not, it may or may not have influence. It?s not as simple as you have the disorder your child will have it.

I think that having milk sisters/brothers used to be an extremely common occurrence, 1000+ years ago. There was no formula, so someone had to be breastfeeding the baby. Now we have formula.
It would have been a big issue back then and be very commonplace.

it's not as popular now, true. i personally know someone who's mother breastfed milk sisters. Dunno much about poorer countries what happens there.

Peace.

Mazhar

Let?s see the Quran does not claim to be a book of science, regardless of what others believe of it. So no it shouldn?t have been there to suit your desire because it?s not a science book. So your claim that the Quran fails, simply because people say that ?it has advanced scientific knowledge? is a baseless argument. There is no room for conjecture to base reality on. After all, science isn?t about conjecture it?s about facts and the fact is The Quran isn?t a science book.

And what science is? It is to realize, know, comprehend and understand the fact that already exists. And where these facts exist/relate to? Our bodies/selves and the Universe around us. And this science i.e. awareness of the facts is a gradual process. The facts already existing keep coming to our notice/comprehension and we start calling them scientific facts. Qur'aan informed

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/002.%20Meanings%20and%20Tabweeb%20of%20words/003.%20Arzal%20il%20Umre%20Alzheimer's%20disease/020.%2041.53%20Show%20them%20knowledge.gif

"We will keep making it visible to the eyes of those who do not accept Quran, the signs/knowledge in the Universe and in their own bodies till it becomes evident for them that this Quran is a statement of proven fact" {Refer 4153}
The Grand Quran has informed that Allah will keep revealing, the knowledge about the universe and human body, and it will become manifest to the people that the Quran is a statement of proven fact. Why would it become manifest that the Quran is a statement of proven fact when man sees/perceives new knowledge about universe and human body? If the things mentioned in a book written earlier in time and space are subsequently found a scientific fact only then it is evident to people that the Book is really a statement of proven facts and not conjectural and presumptive.

The fact is that none of the so called scientific books are more scientific than the Grand Qur'aan., "scientific" means a proven fact, not effected in time and space.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/002.%20Meanings%20and%20Tabweeb%20of%20words/003.%20Arzal%20il%20Umre%20Alzheimer's%20disease/03.%20Arzal%20Umar.htm

SarahY

Mazhar, I don?t disagree. I guess I didn?t articulate myself properly. The science here isn?t ?phenomena of nature? and thats what i was focusing on, based on Fawzia?s arguments.

Jack

As Voltaire said, "Those that can get you to believe in absurdities can get you to commit atrocities."

If someone is taught to believe in jinns & jinn possession, from there its a small step to accuse some jinn of harassment, accuse some poor woman of harnessing jinns etc.

It's only "Muslims" who believe in absurdities? Seriously?
It's HUMANITY that has absurd views. They will take any book to justify their nonsensical convictions. What about the people who don't follow a book, yet commit some rather heinous crimes? What's their excuse?

Taught to believe in jinns & possession? Can you bring forward evidence from the quran for such beliefs. Or do you even have any proof?

So using your 'logic' (yes we'll go with that logic) anything anyone says/believes about fawzia must be true. There's no need to verify claims/beliefs or anything. I can then say that Fawzia loves eating babies, and mention a story about how people from your race ate babies... Correlation = causation. This is logic Boy are you clutching at straws, whatever it takes to justify your bigotry.

Fawzia

@Fawzia. Can we keep this on topic? Most of us here do not subscribe to Sunni or Shia ideologies, and these do not really apply to us.

Can you tell us more about the problems see/ issues you have with Quran only/ Quranism/ Hadith rejection or other relevant topics instead?

Jinni isn't a Shia-Sunni belief, its right there in the Quran, Quran says that jinns have magical powers, can lead people astray etc.Obviously anyone believing, really believing in such bull****, or similar such magical creatures in other religions, can be religiously motivated to persecute others based on supernatural nonsense.

The reason Christians have largely left such behavior is that Xtianity, even the Bible received way too many hammer blows of modernity. Christians in Africa still persecute witches.

So do other backward people.

The reason Saudi Government can take such legal steps like condemning innocent folk for witch craft is because such supernatural nonsense like jinns is still drilled into them via their extensive religious education & culture, & the Quran's stories of jinns are no help, jinns isn't a Sunni Wahhabi invention, its a Quranic belief as well.

Anyway, I will deal with further problems that I have with the Quran.

abdalquran

Where does Quran say 'jinns have MAGICAL powers'? Thanks

Jinni isn't a Shia-Sunni belief, its right there in the Quran, Quran says that jinns have magical powers, can lead people astray etc.Obviously anyone believing, really believing in such bull****, or similar such magical creatures in other religions, can be religiously motivated to persecute others based on supernatural nonsense.

Fawzia

Where does Quran say 'jinns have MAGICAL powers'? Thanks

I've extracted these from Layth's article on jinns, Layth is a regular commenter & article writer out here
Conclusion

Jinn are beings made of energy "Plasma" that is derived from smokeless fire;
Jinn were created before mankind to serve God and uphold his commands;
Jinn were able to travel the galaxy and listen-in on God's commands to His angels;
Jinn failed in the task of upholding God's commands and were replaced in authority by mankind;
Satan pleaded with God to remain on Earth and prove that mankind is unworthy;
God granted Satan's request, with restriction on the movement of Jinn to this universe only;
Jinn camp is split between those who repented to God and those who insist on Satan's way;
Human messengers are sent not only to revert mankind, but also to revert Jinn;
Jinn may whisper to all humans, except those who invoke God's protection;
Jinn may move physical objects, possess artistic as well as construction abilities.
Jinns able to travel the galaxy, listen in on God's commands etc are stuff we humans supposedly don't possess!

Never mind abdul quran, I can understand the immense frustration of Muslims at any apostate daring to reject & even criticise the Quran, not only hadiths!

I have seen similar rude reactions.

abdalquran

I've extracted these from Layth's article on jinns, Layth is a regular commenter & article writer out here
Conclusion

And THAT, Fawzia, is the extent of your 'scholarship' (a word which I use in the loosest possible sense). Who cares what Layth thinks? Layth isn't the Quran and nor did he even justify his view. He used to think that jinn were DINOSAURS and LIZARD-MEN before.

What did you say before? You said Quran says that jinns have magical powers. Now you quote some guy. THAT is what you're worth.

Never mind abdul quran, I can understand the immense frustration of Muslims at any apostate daring to reject & even criticise the Quran, not only hadiths

LOL, pathetic. Can you maybe email your apostate pals (since u got Quranist cousins) and get them to come help? You're doing a pathetic job here. You can't even quote the Quran to prove what YOU say, LOL.

Fawzia

These verses are from the Quran about jinns

And verily, there were men among mankind who took shelter with the masculine among the jinns, but they (jinns) increased them (mankind) in sin and disbelief.
And they thought as you thought, that Allah will not send any Messenger (to mankind or jinns).
And we have sought to reach the heaven; but found it filled with stern guards and flaming fires.
And verily, we used to sit there in stations, to (steal) a hearing, but any who listens now will find a flaming fire watching him in ambush.

These supernatural creatures which increase sin & disbelief etc is like a poorer version of Harry Potter to me. ;D

abdalquran

These verses are from the Quran about jinns
And verily, there were men among mankind who took shelter with the masculine among the jinns, but they (jinns) increased them (mankind) in sin and disbelief.
And they thought as you thought, that Allah will not send any Messenger (to mankind or jinns).
And we have sought to reach the heaven; but found it filled with stern guards and flaming fires.
And verily, we used to sit there in stations, to (steal) a hearing, but any who listens now will find a flaming fire watching him in ambush.
These supernatural creatures which increase sin & disbelief etc is like a poorer version of Harry Potter to me. ;D

Considering your comprehension skills, I'm not surprised. So that's your answer to MAGICAL POWERS? Do you know that the Quran uses the word 'jinn' as opposite of the word 'ins' (ins is an aspect of mankind which implies familiarity and being domesticated - see 17/8. The jinn are said to be 'mashaar' with 'ins' and mashaar implies that they are indistinguisable, i.e. they are not different species. The jinn are described by metaphorical language. It's a pity you level Sunni BS at us and claim its the Quran talking.

I'd really LOVE it if you came back saying im being an apologist with my above view. We can do some language analysis

But good to see you're reading Quran for the first time (since in the 10 month Quranist tour of duty, we dont know if you were conscious or not).

Fawzia

Sure some humans are jinns, some are ghosts, some turn to werewolfs at night etc. ;D

I have to believe every strange story every book narrates.

abdalquran

Sure some humans are jinns, some are ghosts, some turn to werewolfs at night etc. ;D

I have to believe every strange story every book narrates.

Can you stick to the point please? Where does QURAN say 'jinn have magical powers'?

It seems you don't know

Don't run away, Fawzia. We believers in 'harry potter poor man versions' need your guidance so you better learn how to argue and provide proof.

Mazhar

I've extracted these from Layth's article on jinns, Layth is a regular commenter & article writer out here
Conclusion

Jinn are beings made of energy "Plasma" that is derived from smokeless fire;
Jinn were able to travel the galaxy and listen-in on God's commands to His angels;

Both points are incorrect. Qur'aan informs they are created from "flame".

Galaxies are too far off. They cannot go beyond the sky of the Earth which too has been made safe and they are made to run back by shower of minor rocky planetoids.

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/002.%20Meanings%20and%20Tabweeb%20of%20words/005.%20Masabeh%20{Comets}/05.%20Masabeha%20{Comets}.htm#Why%20and%20how%20the%20sky%20of%20world%20has%20been%20made%20safe%20from%20Evil%20ones%20Grand%20Quran%20explained

huruf

I am afraid, Fawzia, that being with us you are not going to get rid of your guilty complex because of abandoning islam. No matter how enraged you show yourself or how much you seem to foam at us, other people are not going to leave islam just so that that they confirm to you that you did the right thing leaving islam. And guilty you must be feeling, because otherwise it makes no sense that you are not now jumping with joy and feeling free away from all that that you left behindand that the last thing you would do would be to return to your old watering holes. I feel pity for you. You are an extremely bad propaganda for leaving islam and certainly you make it very hard to believe that outside of islam there is peace. If you feel peace, you sure hide it well.

Back to the track. I think it is correct hat you do not need to marry cousins for a ratio of the population having sequels of interbreeding. It may happen in all countrysides, where people necessarily marry from the same genepool. On the other hand I have also read that although inbreeding may giv some problems it also gives more geniuses, which makes some sense.

Concerning breastfeeding, it is well known that breastfeeding babies right after birth at least for some time gurantees the kid all defences against diseases. Actualy I think that there are still many shadowed spaces in that kind of knowledge and a lot of new things to discover. Milk in itself for me, ignorant person is nothing short of wondrous and inexplicable.

Apart from that, I second that by milk-sisters must be understood being bred in childhood together, because otherwise, indeed, as very rationally has pointed out our sister en a previous message, we would be having too many cow and coat mothers.

So, really, Fawzia, do not take so much trouble for us. Go back to your pretty holy books that that not the honouured Quran and do not give you yourself a hard time having these silly exchanges with us just for nothing. If we feel we need help because the honoured Quran makes our life miserable we surely know where to find many like you. So just take it easy, enjy your new life and do not worry about us.

Salaam