Hello Folks, Fawzia here! I was a Quranist for 10 months.
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Fawzia you indicated a mostly pleasant experience yet now you state "in my daily life as well as online are usually as full of insults". Insults are not considered pleasant.
Lets not forget the change in the attitude to Arabic. At first it was a totally racist attitude and now its a whiny 'but i dont have the time', lol.
You know how it is with these fakes once they're exposed, Sarah.
too true.. Makes me wonder actually what brings a person with no interest in muslims and islam to a place like this?
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too true.. Makes me wonder actually what brings a person with no interest in muslims and islam to a place like this?
To practise their 'cut and paste' scholarship. I'm waiting to see Fawzia's defense of her statement that abandoning hadith is a 'desperate attempt by Quranists to salvage their faith'. That's gonna be fun.
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Lets not forget the change in the attitude to Arabic. At first it was a totally racist attitude and now its a whiny 'but i dont have the time', lol.
You know how it is with these fakes once they're exposed, Sarah.
Sure, anyone leaving Islam is either a fake or abused by violent cultural Muslims or brainwashed by the West. Islam isn't a race, disliking Islam isn't racist although Muslims love to hold up that race card. Its getting to be an old trick now.
Disliking Islam isn't a crime either.
Fawzia you indicated a mostly pleasant experience yet now you state "in my daily life as well as online are usually as full of insults". Insults are not considered pleasant.
too true.. Makes me wonder actually what brings a person with no interest in muslims and islam to a place like this?
Where did I indicate some extraordinarily pleasant experience? I said I have lead a reasonably good & privileged life, have parents supportive of my apostasy & no genital mutilation, attempted honor killing type experience.
I do have interest in Islam & Muslims, only I am not going to learn Arabic. This forum has sub forums about Judaism, Xtianity, Hinduism, Buddhism & this site invites people of all these religions to learn about Quranist Islam.
Have all the members bothered to learn up Hebrew, Aramaic, Sanskrit, Pali, Prakrit, Gurmukhi etc?
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Sure, anyone leaving Islam is either a fake or abused by violent cultural Muslims or brainwashed by the West. Islam isn't a race, disliking Islam isn't racist although Muslims love to hold up that race card. Its getting to be an old trick now.
Disliking Islam isn't a crime either.
Islam isn't a race but Muslims don't subscribe to Islam totally either. Muslims are subscribers to a culture which has taken on various hues over time. There are hundreds of different hues of Pakistanis, for example but they are all part of the Pakistani 'race' (where race is a constructed group). However, you attacked ALL pakistanis in this thread, even attacked the non-Pakistani Samia. That makes YOU a racist.
Hey, don't forget my questions to you, ex-Quranists. I can't wait to see your answers.
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Sure, anyone leaving Islam is either a fake or abused by violent cultural Muslims or brainwashed by the West. Islam isn't a race, disliking Islam isn't racist although Muslims love to hold up that race card. Its getting to be an old trick now.
Disliking Islam isn't a crime either.
Where did I indicate some extraordinarily pleasant experience? I said I have lead a reasonably good & privileged life, have parents supportive of my apostasy & no genital mutilation, attempted honor killing type experience.
I do have interest in Islam & Muslims, only I am not going to learn Arabic. This forum has sub forums about Judaism, Xtianity, Hinduism, Buddhism & this site invites people of all these religions to learn about Quranist Islam.
Have all the members bothered to learn up Hebrew, Aramaic, Sanskrit, Pali, Prakrit, Gurmukhi etc?
I have to agree that Muslim is not a race, nor is Christianity or even Judaism and, as a God-alone Christian, I have no intention to learn Arabic either, I have an English translation that serves me well, even though I understand that the translation may not be totally accurate. But I do not understand why you should lump all Muslims, or even worse, all Islam together as one. They are not. You can't do that with any religion.
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Islam isn't a race but Muslims don't subscribe to Islam totally either. Muslims are subscribers to a culture which has taken on various hues over time. There are hundreds of different hues of Pakistanis, for example but they are all part of the Pakistani 'race' (where race is a constructed group). However, you attacked ALL pakistanis in this thread, even attacked the non-Pakistani Samia. That makes YOU a racist.
Hey, don't forget my questions to you, ex-Quranists. I can't wait to see your answers.
What did I attack Samia for? Her claim that cousin marriages don't happen in the UK, well it does happen amongst the Pakistani community frequently, & unfortunately "forced" marriages too happen. Surely I can attack anyone for their ignorance or deliberate attempts to mislead. ;D ;D
I can now claim that you folks insulted my Shia heritage numerouys times, but I realise that there was no such thing.
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What did I attack Samia for? Her claim that cousin marriages don't happen in the UK, well it does happen amongst the Pakistani community frequently, & unfortunately "forced" marriages too happen. Surely I can attack anyone for their ignorance or deliberate attempts to mislead. ;D ;D
I can now claim that you folks insulted my Shia heritage numerouys times, but I realise that there was no such thing.
You attacked Pakistanis for something which a statistic claimed. A statistic by definition is based on a given sample but you extended it to ALL Pakistanis. Hence, you're a racist.
I never attacked shia, nor mentioned Iran nor even care if you're some alabaster skinned iranian. In terms of personality, you're clearly a smeegol and that's what I'm going to highlight.
Why do you keep avoiding my above questions? Are you afraid of getting exposed?
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You attacked Pakistanis for something which a statistic claimed. A statistic by definition is based on a given sample but you extended it to ALL Pakistanis. Hence, you're a racist.
I never attacked shia, nor mentioned Iran nor even care if you're some alabaster skinned iranian. In terms of personality, you're clearly a smeegol and that's what I'm going to highlight.
Why do you keep avoiding my above questions? Are you afraid of getting exposed?
Again, Pakistan isn't a race, and its a right to dislike anyone or anything, as long as one doesn't discriminate legally, socially, economically. I never used any word like ALL.
Why should I be afraid of being exposed? I admitted straightaway that I am an ex Muslim & that I don't like many stuff about Islam & the Quran.
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Again, Pakistan isn't a race, and its a right to dislike anyone or anything, as long as one doesn't discriminate legally, socially, economically. I never used any word like ALL.
A 'pakistani' is a person with a single origin (insofar as 'origin' refers to a demarcated piece of land) and that is pakistan. When you say 'Pakistanis', you have made a sweeping generalising comment and hence you're a racist.
Why should I be afraid of being exposed? I admitted straightaway that I am an ex Muslim & that I don't like many stuff about Islam & the Quran.
Good, so answer the questions above. Refer to this thread reply 176. Here are the questions again
- Do you find the Quran supportive of rejection of hadith?
- These ?objectionable? hadith, by what standards do Quranists reject them?
- Why did YOU become a Quranist?
We'll see if the 10-month Quranist really was
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You claim that those who leave hadith are desperate to salvage their faith, did you not? Therefore as a person of integrity, I challenge you to show me how desperate I am? Because I don?t believe for a second you were EVER a Quranist. Reading your last paragraph below proves my point.
Ok, that?s reasoning. Other people are entitled to theirs.
Yeah, also don?t forget to tell us how racially deficient Muslims are, to kinda strengthen your point. That really helps keep us sweet.
No, you?re a racist. That?s miles above mere ?name-calling?.
LOL.
Don?t be ridiculous.
I called you out for one reason and one reason only your ATTITUDE. You think Quranists are being apologetic by changing ?beat? to ?separate? and we?re desperate to salvage our faith. THAT?S why I replied to you. I don?t give a monkeys what you reject, that?s your business. But if you?re gonna tell us we?re playing around with the language, you better have something better than ?I spoke to arabs?. That?s the kind of reasoning which would severely cast you into disrepute.
Oh so you found Quranism appealing then? Tell me, why did you say junking hadith is a ?desparate attempt to salvage faith?. Were you one of the desperate then? What arguments did you employ in this desperation?
So now you have no TIME to learn it? I see. A few days ago it was just beneath you. Good change of tactic there.
So tell me, is it a decent thing to do to call Quranists ?apologists? when you don?t know and refuse to learn Arabic? Is that ?rude? you think to call us ?desperate to salvage our faith?? Don?t run from answering this, ok.
Oh so now you have Quranist FAMILY members? Wow?.
And what has your Quranist cousin have to do with me? I never said crap about ?essence of all previous religions?. I don?t use any ?previous? in my engagement with the Quran.
During these 10 months when you became a Quranist, were you comatose? If so, everything would make sense.
What does ease of understanding have to do with correctness of translation? A concept may be easy but there could be a ton of diversionary material covering it. Funny how an ex-QURANIST doesn?t understand this.
Irrrelevant.
Repeat Do not give a monkeys what you are.
Only care that you defend your remarks about Quranists and your views.
Or a self-hating racist who needs to find a fresh, dissociated identity. Kinda like Buffalo Bill in Silence of the Lambs in a manner of speaking.
GOOD. Now we have something to work with. I will counter-interrogate this in my next post. Please go there.I am no racist again, as Islam isn't a race, disliking Islam isn't a crime. Speaking against Islam isn't a crime. Speaking about any Muslim nation isn't a crime either.
As long as I don't make any call for any harassment or deportation, I do have my fredom of speech.
I have seen many(again not ALL) speak against Israel(& India, USA, Britain,even Singapore & Philippines), that doesn't automatically mean they're anti Semites who'd kill Jews given the chance. While I disagree, I don't jump on their throats with the "race" card.
I never claimed that all Muslims who turn Quranists do so to salvage their faith, but I do know plenty like that.
You started off by being rude, why should I reply politely?
It was you who questioned my intelligence & reasoning abilities.
Don't expect politeness when you start off with rudeness.
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A 'pakistani' is a person with a single origin (insofar as 'origin' refers to a demarcated piece of land) and that is pakistan. When you say 'Pakistanis', you have made a sweeping generalising comment and hence you're a racist.
A demarcated piece of land again isn't analogous to a race, in any case, one can begin a negative statement with Pakistanis, Shias, Sunis, Wahhabis etc.
A statement like "Wahhabis treat women poorly" isn't any reason to call another an evil person.
As far as Pakistani cousin marriaes are concerned, that was the results of numerous surveys. ;D
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I am no racist again, as Islam isn't a race, disliking Islam isn't a crime. Speaking against Islam isn't a crime. Speaking about any Muslim nation isn't a crime either.
As long as I don't make any call for any harassment or deportation, I do have my fredom of speech.
Once again, you made sweeping statements about people of a certain origin or culture. THAT makes you racist.
Criticising Islam doesnt make u a racist. Get that straight, ok.
No one here wants to take away your right to speak. In fact, it's good that you have that right so the world can see what a racist you are.
I never claimed that all Muslims who turn Quranists do so to salvage their faith, but I do know plenty like that.
When you don't use the qualifier 'some' or whatever, thats EXACTLY what you did. Now are we ready for a change of statement.
Question do you or do you not believe the Quran supports Quran alone doctrine? Yes or no.
You started off by being rude, why should I reply politely?
Who's asking you to be polite? Be rude to me all you want. You being nice doesn't send me to ruptures of divine love, don't worry.
It was you who questioned my intelligence & reasoning abilities.
What intelligence and reasoning abilities? Intelligence implies actually reading and understanding what one is writing. When one simply rejects the study of the LANGUAGE of the text because it's not worth her time, that would make argumentation impossible.
Look at the question about jinn. You couldn't even produce an analysis of the Quran which YOU quoted. At first you even tried to pass off someone else's article as proof of what Quran says? This is 'reasoning ability' only in the widest possible definition of the term.
So my questions await you. No need to be polite, call me anything you like but don't run away.
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A demarcated piece of land again isn't analogous to a race, in any case, one can begin a negative statement with Pakistanis, Shias, Sunis, Wahhabis etc.
A statement like "Wahhabis treat women poorly" isn't any reason to call another an evil person.
As far as Pakistani cousin marriaes are concerned, that was the results of numerous surveys. ;D
A 'race' is a construct. You need to do some reading. Do you know at one point, even the Irish weren't considered 'white'? Then they were included into it for political reasons (to overcome ethnic minorities in America, apparently). In the same way, 'Pakistani' wasn't a race before Pakistan was formed but now it is and you made a sweeping statement about ALL of them. That makes u a 'racist'.
Don't be deluded into thinking race is biological, ok. Find out the origins of Boris Johnson and you'll see how ephemeral the whole notion is.
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Peace,
Just because someone made a racist remark, doesn't mean that he (in this case, she) is bound to be a "racist" for life. God knows what will happen through the rest of your life, or my life, or her life.
Hence let's avoid the labeling of a person. God knows better.
And let's avoid expressing your judgment over other person. God is the Best Judge.Let's not say "you're a racist" or "you're a k-f-r" or you're a "sh-r-k" (fortunately the last two has not been said on this thread)
Instead, if you found the one is not willing to cooperate with you on the discussion,
JUST LEAVE.
There is clear distinction between "debate" and "discussion". The first being inter-ego fighting and the latter, inter-goodwill cooperation. And the signs of goodwill (or lack thereof) can easily be found in one's actions or words.
If you found such debate "ridiculous", please read on.
316 And of the people is he who buys the amusement of speech to mislead from the way of Allah without knowledge and who takes it in ridicule. Those will have a humiliating punishment.
There are options
Leave the 'ridiculous' side until another topic is made...
4140 And it has already come down to you in the Book that when you hear the verses of Allah, they are denied and ridiculed; so do not sit with them until they enter into another conversation. Indeed, you would then be like them. Indeed Allah will gather the hypocrites and disbelievers in Hell all together -
668 have similar theme. (ed)
... or stay, ridicule the one who ridicules.
1138 And he constructed the ship, and whenever an assembly of the eminent of his people passed by him, they ridiculed him. He said, "If you ridicule us, then we will ridicule you just as you ridicule.
However verse 4140 should already warn you what could happen if you stay--and this warning could also happen to any side
23110 But you took them in mockery to the point that they made you forget My remembrance, and you used to laugh at them.
So, Peace. And i suggest those who are willing to give her a chance to make a condition. For example,
if she did not answer or respond in the best way possible (and that is up to you to assess) in the next n posts,
then let her be left in this thread until she change topic (or better, attitude).notes Translations are from Sahih international--cleaned from parentheses and everything inside them.
Removed translation for 668, as i am not yet sure about a certain word in the translations.As always, 1736.
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clarification--
abdalquran, my post above might seem to be directed to only you--but it is not. It's for everyone, actually.
As for you, abdalquran, I know how to be in your position. As Coldplay says, "A rush of blood to the head". And it is not singular, it is plural rushes, as accumulating through the thread. Or maybe you have such a saintly control over your blood circulation, i don't know... but you get my idea.
By the way, i'm also worried with your ID--as far as God has given me knowledge, the Quran is not God. In fact, i often think of the Quran as one of His messengers (ed), just like the previous Scriptures. Do you have any reason for that name?
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I didn?t say ?extraordinarily pleasant experience? remember you said
?my parents were fully accepting of my apostasy & most Muslims too haven't harassed me in anyway for leaving Islam?
You still feel like a contradiction you said
?I do have interest in islam & muslims?Yet in the other thread
?I admit that I do have my biases, like anyone else.To say I am not too fond of Islam is an understatement.?
#92 http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599394.90
Talking about that thread.. would be good if you weren?t evasive and only responded to cousin marriages, even then you're still selective.
So anyway back to your questions and comments. Yeah it does invite people to learn about islam Quranicly though remember it is a forum and it?s filled with people?s opinions.
Why would all members need to learn up Hebrew, Aramaic Sanskrit etc? If peoples interests is Quranic the focus would be Quran and possibly learning Arabic or understanding it. Some people with interest in other religions or grew up with backgrounds learning other language may know them, but not me.
anyway your beliefs are your choice, as are mine. I hope you gain whatever it is you wish to learn from this forum
Peace.
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I never claimed that all Muslims who turn Quranists do so to salvage their faith, but I do know plenty like that.
What does that prove? Rather than attacking individuals who happen to be Muslim/ Quranist for the wrong reasons, why don't you tell us of your arguments against the 'system'
There are atheists who are good and moral people, who do good things and avoid hurting other people because that is what they feel is right. There are other people who are atheists and they cause harm to others since they fear no retribution. I don't see how either type of person represents atheism. Atheism is only a system/ lack of religion, and it should be examined based on its principles, and not on the actual actions of those who claim to be atheist.
Why should the same argument hold for those who claim to be Muslim/ Quranist? Instead of pointing to people who are 'wrong' why don't you point to the flaws of this system?
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Why would all members need to learn up Hebrew, Aramaic Sanskrit etc? If peoples interests is Quranic the focus would be Quran and possibly learning Arabic or understanding it. Some people with interest in other religions or grew up with backgrounds learning other language may know them, but not me.
LOL Sarah, I was laughing my head off when I read this too. Another thing which made me laugh was this
am no racist again, as Islam isn't a race, disliking Islam isn't a crime. Speaking against Islam isn't a crime. Speaking about any Muslim nation isn't a crime either.
I can almost smell the vehement desperation to somehow to derogate Islam. It's like a little child stomping her feet. As I said, these people come here to use this place as a verbal toilet and when they can't do their number twos (i.e. when ppl actually talk back), things get ugly.
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I can almost smell the vehement desperation to somehow to derogate Islam. It's like a little child stomping her feet. As I said, these people come here to use this place as a verbal toilet and when they can't do their number twos (i.e. when ppl actually talk back), things get ugly.
Peace,
God willing--one last suggestion to those would rather offend Fawzia in any way than to leave her alone (so she could change her attitude first).
Fawzia and God knows how many other people keep coming back to a thread discussing religions. Do you know why? God knows best.
They might have decided on something before reaching a whole understanding. Be they satisfied or not with their decision--they might still be unconsciously seeking for guidance, while at the same time they could be fulfilling their egos, thanks to the people who help keep the fire in them burning.
How? Everytime we offend those people, their egos are fulfilled. Their proofs and reasons--to hate or reject God's given way--accumulate. Remember, they don't necessarily be logical--they have emotions too.
God knows best how our words or actions could hurt the feelings of others, despite of our original intention.
Please observe
6108 And do not insult those they invoke other than God, lest they insult God in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their RETURN, and He will inform them about what they used to do.
yes, in the case of atheists, they may have no god which we could scoff at, but that is on the outside--we have no idea of what actually their god is (or what their gods are) in their heart.
Now please for a moment see the verse this way It is His message to His believers, and it is God's attention to the disbelievers' side.
Shocking, no? Remember, any insult will not reach God's majesty and glory, so why would God express, "lest they insult God in enmity without knowledge"? And what use would that be for the believers' side? (well there is one i could think, but please read on)
What if God meant it as His mercy for the (at present) disbelievers (polytheists and atheists alike), "not to insult God in enmity without knowledge"? God knows how sorry and wretched one would feel, if he or she would later RETURN to Him. And if he or she stay in disbelieve--do you know how hard that is, losing trust on God, losing hope on the Best of Hopes, losing direction, losing the ever-sustaining feeling of Mercy? Those who have been in Fawzia's position, for even just a moment long, would understand this by heart. It is an emptiness you don't want to be in, ever again.
As for the believers' side, of course they will be enraged if God is insulted before them--but is that a good thing for them? Or would God prefer peace and relieve in their heart? That is God's mercy for the believers.
Now, do you think God has no mercy on Fawzia? Do you think God has abandoned her?
If you don't think it appropriate to give "nice words" to her, then refrain from giving "words that might hurt her" beyond her faults (and God bless you if you did just that). And do you know, exactly, what are the words that might not hurt her beyond her faults? Or God knows better than you?
If you think God knows better than you, then please follow His message. Leave her alone, until communication on her side is changed (topic and or attitude).
Do yourself--and her--a favour by following God's suggestion. Or are you trying to stand between God and her?
And to Fawzia, please do yourself a favour by the best you can think of. This is a matter of eternity (or at least, the rest of your life), as you might've been well aware of. Take time.
Peace,