2:238 - evidence FOR/AGAINST a 'middle' prayer

Wakas

peace abdu,

Thanks for your analysis, however it has its problems, two points

You bring up the man being in fear issue and apply it to 2238 before it is mentioned in 2239. Note the conjunctive "fa" (so/then).
Your explanation of 2239 does not fit as it is about remembering God, not a past wife etc, making it an insertion/extrapolation.

In my view, in addition to what I have already said, it simply means whilst one is guarding/preserving bonds (in life there are many), remember to guard/preserve the most balanced bond, and that is to God and His system etc. If this is done, then all other bonds will inevitably be straightened and preserved etc, and even when in fear, then it goes onto discuss death of spouse etc.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Excellent points, Wakas.
I'd say that "qoomoo" can refer both to physical standing (because of the contrast to walking and riding in 2239) and to persisting.

A possible translation

2238 Guard over the bonds, especially/most importantly the most balanced/excellent bond (i.e. to God), that is, by means of standing/persisting to God dutifully (i.e. having utmost concentration and dedication).

Peace

Ahmad_Bilal

In my view, in addition to what I have already said, it simply means whilst one is guarding/preserving bonds (in life there are many), remember to guard/preserve the most balanced bond, and that is to God and His system etc. If this is done, then all other bonds will inevitably be straightened and preserved etc, and even when in fear, then it goes onto discuss death of spouse etc.

So, what are the "specific times" for these bonds?

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Peace Ahmad

So, what are the "specific times" for these bonds?

Bonds/"salawat" is a general term that does not specifically have anything to do with the timed bond/"salat" - it can refer to all sorts of bonds/"salawat".

As Wakas has said

In my view, in addition to what I have already said, it simply means whilst one is guarding/preserving bonds (in life there are many), remember to guard/preserve the most balanced bond, and that is to God and His system etc. If this is done, then all other bonds will inevitably be straightened and preserved etc, and even when in fear, then it goes onto discuss death of spouse etc.

Note that the context of 2238 is marriage life (i.e. the bonds of marriage). One must guard over these, but never forget about God, to whom is our most balanced/excellent bond.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Perhaps it means Guard over (hafithoo aala) the acts of going/turning towards (i.e. bonds) (al salawat), especially/but most importantly/and/but (wa) the act of going/turning towards (al salat) the moderation/balance/best/excellence (al wusta), that is/and (wa), standing/persisting/stand (qoomoo) for/to (li) God (Allah) qaniteena (dutifully)

So basically "al salat al wusta" = the act of going/turning towards the moderation/balance/excellence

Just a thought...

born_again

Excellent points, Wakas.
I'd say that "qoomoo" can refer both to physical standing (because of the contrast to walking and riding in 2239) and to persisting.

A possible translation

2238 Guard over the bonds, especially/most importantly the most balanced/excellent bond (i.e. to God), that is, by means of standing/persisting to God dutifully (i.e. having utmost concentration and dedication).

Peace

Salaam

Standing MUST refer to a physical one because the other sign goes on

2239 But if you are in a state of worry, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.

It's crystal clear that salavat refers directly to bonds of couple (...And do not forget the favor between you... 2237) and salat is timed READING / CONTACT which was done by prophet.

But I can't figure out "this fear".

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace Progressive,

Bonds/"salawat" is a general term that does not specifically have anything to do with the timed bond/"salat" - it can refer to all sorts of bonds/"salawat".

I can agree that, in this passage, "wusta" is used in a comparitive sense; in other words, it means best or most excellent. However, your argument is still contradictory, since "salawaat" is the plural form of "salaat". Therefore, you can't make "salaat" about one thing and "salawaat" about something else, especially in the same verse. For example, if this was (hypothetically) relating to prayer, it would say this

Guard the prayers, and (or especially) the most excellent prayer...
Guard the bonds, and (or especially) the most excellent bond...
Guard the connections, and (or especially) the most excellent connection...

Either way you translate this, it is referring to the same principle of discussion, since "wusta" is used comparitively. It's illogical to make "salawaat" about the marriage bond and then make "salaat" about our communion with Allah, and it makes the idea of the passage unreasonable. If you placed this concept of "salawaat" as referring specifically to the marriage agreement, then the "best bond" would also have to be related to the marriage bond. Otherwise, it must be talking about the timed salaat observance.

As Wakas has said

Wakas' argument is partial to the subject at hand. There is nothing in 2238 or 2239 that say that, once we preserve the marriage bond, and THEN the bond with Allah, that all of our other bonds will be straightened. If anything, it refutes this logic, since 2239 speaks of the people being in fear, meaning their bonds (with humanity) were not straightened... Also, the end of 2239 enforces to us that AFTER WE ARE SECURE, then we should "remember Allah" as He taught us. So, what way is this? There's no specific way to preserve a bond, and there's no different in preserving a bond when we're safe or when we're in danger. In fact, the Qur'aan actually says that people, when in fear, call upon Allah to save them, and they turn away from Him after He saves them from their calamity. Based on this, why would we be told to remember Allah the way He taught us AFTER WE ARE SAFE?

After examining all the details, it becomes clear (at least to me) that "salaat" must be a physical action, something that we do, directed solely toward Allah. Therefore, the "salawaat" (plural of salaat) must also be something we do (or "things" we do), which should be directed toward Allah alone. When 4103 said that the salaat is at specific times, it's talking about ALL forms of salaat, which means that it should all be directed to a human. The Qur'aan is very careful with it's wording, never making any mistakes or causing any inconsistencies. The salaat, according to the Qur'aan, whether you believe it to be a bond, a service, or a prayer, shouldn't be directed to anyone other than Allah, and it should occur at specific times. Therefore, the concept of preserving (or guarding) a 'marriage salaat/bond' is inconsistent with the rest of the scripture...

Wakas

peace AB,

It is clear from your comments and questions, that you have either mis-read what has been said, or have read properly but are confused / do not understand.

In such cases, I recommend re-reading, multiple times.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Peace Ahmad,

I can agree that, in this passage, "wusta" is used in a comparitive sense; in other words, it means best or most excellent. However, your argument is still contradictory, since "salawaat" is the plural form of "salaat". Therefore, you can't make "salaat" about one thing and "salawaat" about something else, especially in the same verse. For example, if this was (hypothetically) relating to prayer, it would say this

Guard the prayers, and (or especially) the most excellent prayer...
Guard the bonds, and (or especially) the most excellent bond...
Guard the connections, and (or especially) the most excellent connection...

Either way you translate this, it is referring to the same principle of discussion, since "wusta" is used comparitively. It's illogical to make "salawaat" about the marriage bond and then make "salaat" about our communion with Allah, and it makes the idea of the passage unreasonable.

You are mistaken. The reason why you think it is "contradictory" is because you think that slw refers to a connection to God only. This is clearly not the case - it can be a bond between anything.

After examining all the details, it becomes clear (at least to me) that "salaat" must be a physical action, something that we do, directed solely toward Allah. Therefore, the "salawaat" (plural of salaat) must also be something we do (or "things" we do), which should be directed toward Allah alone. When 4103 said that the salaat is at specific times, it's talking about ALL forms of salaat, which means that it should all be directed to a human. The Qur'aan is very careful with it's wording, never making any mistakes or causing any inconsistencies. The salaat, according to the Qur'aan, whether you believe it to be a bond, a service, or a prayer, shouldn't be directed to anyone other than Allah, and it should occur at specific times. Therefore, the concept of preserving (or guarding) a 'marriage salaat/bond' is inconsistent with the rest of the scripture...

Again, you are mistaken.

Slw does not specifically refer to something that is "directed solely toward allah", as you said.

3356 Inna Allaha wamala-ikatahu yusalloonaAAala alnnabiyyi ya ayyuha allatheenaamanoo salloo AAalayhi wasallimoo tasleeman

3356 The God and His angels yusallona unto the prophet. O you who acknowledge, you shall salloo unto him, and become peaceful/comply completely.

2157 Ola-ika AAalayhim salawatunmin rabbihim warahmatun waola-ika humu almuhtadoona

2157 Unto these will be salawat from their Lord and a mercy; they are the guided ones.

Slw is something GENERAL, which has the basic meanings of "going/turning towards", "remaining attached", etc.
You are confusing the timed bond ("al salat&quot with "salawat" and slw in general.

Ahmad_Bilal

So, you're saying that S-L-W is not relating to "salaat"? You're saying that "salawaat" is NOT the plural form of the word "salaat", but it means something totally different?

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how "salaat" must be directed toward Allah alone, while "salawaat" (the plural form of salaat) can be directed towards anybody. Am I misunderstanding you or something? The word "salaat" (or salah) is singular, while "salawaat" is plural. Therefore, if "salaat" (SINGULAR) means bond, then "salawaat" means bonds (PLURAL). If "salaat" can only be directed to Allah, then "salawaat" can also only be directed to Allah, since they are the same things...

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Ahmad,

So, you're saying that S-L-W is not relating to "salaat"? You're saying that "salawaat" is NOT the plural form of the word "salaat", but it means something totally different?

Note slw = sad-lam-waw

I never said that slw is not related to "salat". I also never said that "salawat" is not the plural form of "salat".
Where did you get that from?

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how "salaat" must be directed toward Allah alone, while "salawaat" (the plural form of salaat) can be directed towards anybody. Am I misunderstanding you or something? The word "salaat" (or salah) is singular, while "salawaat" is plural. Therefore, if "salaat" (SINGULAR) means bond, then "salawaat" means bonds (PLURAL). If "salaat" can only be directed to Allah, then "salawaat" can also only be directed to Allah, since they are the same things...

What I was saying that "salat" is a GENERAL word meaning "bond" (literally "act of going/turning towards in a close/positive manner"/"act of following closely"/etc.)

While slw is predominantly used with reference to God (i.e. a bond to God/following God's laws closely/etc.), it is used in other contexts as well (e.g. bonding unto the prophet/commiting to him in 3356, 2157 talking about certain people recieving bonds/acts of going/turning towards from their Lord, and marriage bonds in 223.

I also said that you are confusing the timed salat, which is "kitaban mawqatan" (a timed record/decree) for the believers (see 4103) and is to be directed towards God alone, with slw in general, which is a general concept.

Once you have understood that slw is a GENERAL thing, you will understand 2238 much better.
While guarding over the bonds (the context is marriage, so it is talking about marriage bonds) we are never to forget about the most balanced/excellent bond, which is to God. Reply 17 would be useful to read.

herbman

Hi all, Peace,

I was re-reading and I am still hanging with this little issue, "then you may do so while walking or riding"

Once the fear is over
2239 But if you are in a state of fear, then you may do so while walking or riding.(they can do the bonding) If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.

That means once fear of death is over he can always comeback to her as how God has taught us in the previous verse, ie the remarriage. If he dies woman is allowed to remarry without the prescribed period of 4 months and 10 days.

It seems "if you fear"
then "do that= walking or do that = riding",
if you are not in fear
then remember God the way He taught us.

I think "remember God the way He taught us" , is acting the way He taught us regarding marriage and divorce in the contexte of 2221/241.
But in the other hand why do we have do it "walking or riding" ?

I do not understand why "we can or have to do it walking or riding" can this have another meaning????

I am guessing something like "take it or leave it" but when you are sure then do it the way God taught us? Does it make sense?

from P-R-L
Ra-Kaf-Ba = to ride, embark, mount, be carried, go on board of a ship, voyage on (the sea), walk on (a road), commit (a fault). rakbun - caravan. rukban (pl. of rakib) - one who rides, mounted. rikab - camels. rakub - use of a beast for riding. mutarakibun - laying in heaps, ridden on one another, close growing, cluster over clustered, layer upon layer. tarkabunna - to pass on, rise, ascend.

Ra-Jiim-Lam = to go on foot, urge with foot, walk, tie by the feet, let (a female) suckle her young, be curly (hair), set free with his mother. rajjala - to comfort anyone, comb the hair, grant a respite. tarajjala - to go down without rope. rijlatun - vigour in walking. rijlun - foot, soldiers, good walker, tramp. arajil - hunters, pedestrian. rajulun - male human being, man, a person with heir. rajilun - foot, footmen (slow walkers). rijlain - two feet. arjul (pl.) - feet.

Thanks for your help and input

nimnimak_11

Salaam

Standing MUST refer to a physical one because the other sign goes on

2239 But if you are in a state of worry, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.

It's crystal clear that salavat refers directly to bonds of couple (...And do not forget the favor between you... 2237) and salat is timed READING / CONTACT which was done by prophet.

But I can't figure out "this fear".

Salaam bornagain

The word fear might have other meanings. I'm still waiting to see where this discussion will continue to.

Heres the root of that word

PRL Kh-Waw-Fa = To fear, to be afraid/frightened/terrified, to put fear into another, diminish or lessen or take from, to take little by little from a thing, take from the sides of a thing, slaughter or fight.

nimnimak_11

The prayers are a difficult thing, except for those who paitient. Thus in that verse God is basically saying these people will keep up many prayers. To my understanding.

Abraham said" Lord, let me be one who keep the prayers." Thus you cannot will anything except if God also wills.

Peace Anthony

Going back to you quoting joker.
God does not pray to us right? if you think no then in that case if you do translate it as prayer, then it would not work. There are other words for prayer. So surely salat means something other than prayer considering these two points alone.

nimnimak_11

Peace Wakas and Progressive

So there are bonds in which we are to uphold but specially the most balanced/best bond. So from various bonds one is the most balanced/best. This one bond could be a category entailing various things (that is my general understanding of Wakas' post so far)
But how do we know what the most balanced/best bond is without being subjective and opinonated? Do we have a verse implying this in the Quran? Considering the importance of the conept, i think it should have some objective end to it.

Consider these potential bonds

Marital, social, family, God, Morality, ethics, work and so on....

From the above how do we know which bond is the most important? Some may say God but i'd hold that it would be morality for without it we would be kafirs.

The only way this could potentially work is if we limit bonds to only that of conscious beings. So all we would be left with is

God, Family, Friends and other people with our bond to God being the most balanced and most important of the bonds. This would resonably be the case as this bond would encompass issues which effect the other bonds but the reverse would not hold (ie. social bonds would not entail our bond to God) Thus our bond to God is the most balanced. It can also be seen as the best bond as it's pursuit gurantees more protection than the other bonds do.

So the most important Bonds are the timed ones.

mmkhan

Salaam all,

AlSalaat AlWusta as per my understanding

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601629.msg267955#msg267955

Hope this helps, inshaAllah

May Allah guide us all to His path pr
Mohammed M. Khan

Union

Is not

talking about more than two Salat ?

And

talking about one Salah ?

Is that implying that there are at least three Salat in a day and a especial Salah (middle/best etc.) , which may be the Jum'a Salah ?

loxbox13

Hi all, Peace,

I was re-reading and I am still hanging with this little issue, "then you may do so while walking or riding"

It seems "if you fear"
then "do that= walking or do that = riding",
if you are not in fear
then remember God the way He taught us.

I think "remember God the way He taught us" , is acting the way He taught us regarding marriage and divorce in the contexte of 2221/241.
But in the other hand why do we have do it "walking or riding" ?

I do not understand why "we can or have to do it walking or riding" can this have another meaning????

I am guessing something like "take it or leave it" but when you are sure then do it the way God taught us? Does it make sense?

from P-R-L
Ra-Kaf-Ba = to ride, embark, mount, be carried, go on board of a ship, voyage on (the sea), walk on (a road), commit (a fault). rakbun - caravan. rukban (pl. of rakib) - one who rides, mounted. rikab - camels. rakub - use of a beast for riding. mutarakibun - laying in heaps, ridden on one another, close growing, cluster over clustered, layer upon layer. tarkabunna - to pass on, rise, ascend.

Ra-Jiim-Lam = to go on foot, urge with foot, walk, tie by the feet, let (a female) suckle her young, be curly (hair), set free with his mother. rajjala - to comfort anyone, comb the hair, grant a respite. tarajjala - to go down without rope. rijlatun - vigour in walking. rijlun - foot, soldiers, good walker, tramp. arajil - hunters, pedestrian. rajulun - male human being, man, a person with heir. rajilun - foot, footmen (slow walkers). rijlain - two feet. arjul (pl.) - feet.

Thanks for your help and input

It sounds to me like, if you are in a state of emergency, do the debates walking or riding or otherwise, but do it and do not make individual decisions

like they do now in most countries in the world, they create state of emergency to make important decisions without going throuh parlements tc... or through assembly's etc.... the quran made it clear that everything has to be through debates and votes to decide

truthseeker171

Salaam

evidence for a middle prayer -

The middle prayer mentioned

Verse 629-10 - O you who acknowledge, if the contact prayer is called to on the day of assembly, then you shall hasten towards the remembrance of God, and cease all selling/dealing. This is better for you, if you only knew. Then, once the contact prayer is complete, you shall disperse through the land and seek God's provisions, and remember God frequently, so that you may succeed.-

This verse gives evidence for a middle prayer because before and after the middle prayer there are social activities that require daylight.
Further proof for this can be found in verse 2458.

Verse 2458 - O you who acknowledge, let those whom are under your contract and have not yet attained puberty request your permission regarding three times Before the dawn contact prayer, and when you take off your attire from the heat of the noon, and after the dusk contact prayer. These are three private times for you. Other than these times, it is not wrong for you or them to intermingle with one another. God thus clarifies the revelations for you. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.-

According to this verse before the morning- and after the eveningprayer one has a private time, for changing clothes and sleeping. That is different from selling and dispersing through the land, seeking God's provisions.
The prayer of verse 629 is between the morning- and eveningprayer.

There is no evidence that verse 629 only refers to the -hajj-, the verse mentions the day of gathering in general.
The -hajj- during the days of the prophet Mohammad lasted at least three days, so that is hardly compatible with the wording the day of gathering.
Furthermore after the middle-prayer one disperses through the land according to verse 6210 - that would mean that the middle salat would be the end of the -hajj-, there is no evidence in the Koran for this.

The business that is mentioned can refer to all kind of worldly affairs.

The fact that the day of gathering is mentioned does not mean that there is only on days of gathering a middle prayer.
Verse 629 acknowledges that there is a middle prayer in general, the special ruling is that in case of being gathered one has to pray that -salat- together. Anyway during the presence of the prophet - verse 6211.

The timing of the middle prayer

Verse 1778 - You shall hold the contact prayer at the setting/passing the highest point of/by the sun until the darkness of the night; and the Quran at dawn, the Quran at dawn has been witnessed. -

There has been some discussion about the wording -dulooki ash-shams- of verse 1778, does it mean passing the zenith or does it mean rubbing the horizon?
The Koran seems to explain this perfectly, the key seems to be the combination of verse 11114 and 20130.

Verse 11114 states that both the morning- as the eveningprayer are during the night - at dawn and dusk (Read otherwise there would be even more than three prayers).

Verse 20130 - So be patient to what they are saying and glorify the grace of your Lord before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and from the early part of the night glorify, and at the edges of the day that you may be content. -

This verse states unambiguously that the edge of the day and the moment before sunset are not a part of the night.
The moment that the sun comes near the horizon or rubs the horizon is not a part of the night - it could be the beginning of an edge of the day, but according to verse 11114 the prayer is -zulafan mina el lail- during the adjacent part of the night.
So the interpretation of -dulooki- as rubbing the horizon is wrong. Since this is not a part of the night. The eveningprayer is during the night.
This opens the way for following
Verse 1778 is about two prayers, as is verse 11114.
One prayertime is from the moment that the sun passes the highest point.
The other prayertime lasts until the maximum darkening of the sky.
The border between these two prayertimes is given by verse 11114, the -taraf- the edge of the day.
A while after sunset during the night, the prayertime of the evening starts, when the gradual darkening of the sky from east to west begins - verse 3637.

These findings might take away some of the relevance of the discussion about the meaning of the wording -wusta- of verse 2238, in this matter.

According to the mentioned verses, there is a third daily prayer, apart from the morning- and eveningprayer.
The time-frame of this third prayer is given by the Koran as well.

Truthseeker171

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

Wakas

The -hajj- during the days of the prophet Mohammad lasted at least three days, so that is hardly compatible with the wording the day of gathering.
Furthermore after the middle-prayer one disperses through the land according to verse 6210 - that would mean that the middle salat would be the end of the -hajj-, there is no evidence in the Koran for this.

See 93