The why and how of the bond mentioned in the reading
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peace zubairus,
It means a person may uphold the bond without the acceptance/submission/acknowledgement and it is valid.
That is not my understanding, but if that is yours, each to their own.
It seems you have equated understanding/comprehending and acknowledging/sjd. Evidence?
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Peace brother wakas,
If you agree that SJD = Submission, you may replace my aknowledgement with submission and respond to my request. If no, do please tell me your exact equivalent of SJD.
Peace.ZUBAIRUS
What (I think) he means is that it is erronous to equate understanding what is being said during the bond with acknowledging/submission (sjd), since one can understand what is being said during the bond yet not submit to/obey (sjd) what is being said/read, since one may be a hypocrite/want to ignore God's signs.
Also, one has missed the point of the bond if one understands what is being said/read but does not obey/acknowledge/submit (sjd). -
Peace brother wakas,
Actually I am not particular about the directional element of the bond at the moment but the acceptance/submission/acknowledgement aspect.
The fact is this, one can actually acnowledge what is understood to an extent.
But the issue here is a situation where a person is contemplating on possibilities trying to understand what is meant.
What happen to the bond?
Peace.
ZUBAIRUS
Peace.
Actually I did not equate understanding with acknowledgement and we are particular about a mumeen upholding the bond.
A PERSON NEED TO UNDERSTAND ATLEAST TO AN EXTENT BEFORE SUBMISSION.Peace.
ZUBAIRUS.
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Peace brother wakas
peace zubairus,
There is a difference between understanding/comprehending and acknowledging. Of course, it is preferable to have both I would think.
As far as I'm aware, nowhere in The Quran does it say one must understand 100% of everything mentioned/contained in it. One must aim to do so to the best of their ability, sincerely etc.
Lastly, the person leading the regular/timed salat/bond would likely be more knowledgeable than average, thus the chances of this are reduced.May I ask what point you are trying to get at, if any? Specifically, how this relates to the alleged directional element in this verse?
You said one must not understand 100%.Agreed. I said atleast to an extent. I think we are saying the samething and we have taken for granted the language used.
My request is this, when one is upholding the bond,he is confronted with a verse with variose interpretations. He is contemplating on the possibilities to arrive at the actual meaning to the level of his understanding. Sometimes it easily resoved but sometimes this take time.What happene to the bond?
Concluded without submission?
Bond suspended till the meaning is uncovered?
Submission blindly?
This is the request.
Peace.ZUBAIRUS
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peace zubairus,
My understanding is that the regular/timed bond would end the same way, with sjd/acknowledgement.
If someone shows you how to clean a car, but you dont understand one aspect of the task, this does not mean you should suspend all car cleaning activity. You apply what you know, build from there, with sincerity, e.g. 37, 3918, 1736. One still acknowledges the direction/goal and takes steps in this direction.
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Peace brother wakas,
Honestly your anology is not satisfying. And when we talk of mummeen he has accepted that the entire message is from Allah. But in upholding the bond, the understanding and submission in question are with regards to the particular vers or verses read.
Brother, look at it from this perspective,if it had been that you upheld bond for me using these verse 4101 to 103, we both beleive they are from Allah I suppose, but see how far we have come trying to arrive at what is meant in the verses.
In a situation like this, how can I submit when I am yet to agree to your understanding, neither do you agree to mine?What happen to the bond I repeat?
Peace.
ZUBAIRUS
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Peace brother wakas,
Please read my post again. I said if it
Peace brother wakas,
Honestly your anology is not satisfying. And when we talk of mummeen he has accepted that the entire message is from Allah. But in upholding the bond, the understanding and submission in question are with regards to the particular vers or verses read.
Brother, look at it from this perspective,if it had been that you upheld bond for me using these verse 4101 to 103, we both beleive they are from Allah I suppose, but see how far we have come trying to arrive at what is meant in the verses.
In a situation like this, how can I submit when I am yet to agree to your understanding, neither do you agree to mine?What happen to the bond I repeat?
Peace.
ZUBAIRUS
had been that you upheld bond for me using the verse mentioned and my understanding differ from yours and as such I did not submit/acknowledge, what happen?
Peace.
ZUBAIRUS
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Peace brother wakas,
Definitely we submit to the message. But naturally these are the possibilities- the message is read by the one leading,it is understood,we submit
- the message is read by the one leading, we seek for explanation on what is read,it is understood, we submit.
- the message is read by the one leading, we seek for explanation, but the explanation not satisfactory, we seek for further explanation and so it continues.
Do you think otherwise?
Peace.
ZUBAIRUS
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peace zubairus,
I see it as sjd/acknowledgement of God/His message, not the one leading the regular/timed salat/bond.
I am of the view, that all regular/timed salat/bond end with sjd/acknowldgement, and understanding 100% is irrelevant. For example, if someone reads something to me and I believe/accept the source, then if I disagree with the interpretation or not it is irrelevant, because I know that same source requires me to continue to seek knowledge, have patience, be good, follow what is solid, listen to others and follow what is best etc so I acknowledge this direction.
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Peace brother wakas,
Let us clarify a point.
In upholding bond among the mumeenun,peaple who already believe that the entire message is from Allah, is the target to understand what is said and submit to it or just to submit it is from Allah.
Is it that in your concept of bond among the mumeenun, understanding of what is said is not included?
Remember 100% understanding was mentioned by you.Peace.
ZUBAIRUS
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Peace brother wakas
Below is the particular reply you mentioned
peace zubairus,
There is a difference between understanding/comprehending and acknowledging. Of course, it is preferable to have both I would think.
As far as I'm aware, nowhere in The Quran does it say one must understand 100% of everything mentioned/contained in it. One must aim to do so to the best of their ability, sincerely etc.
Lastly, the person leading the regular/timed salat/bond would likely be more knowledgeable than average, thus the chances of this are reduced.
May I ask what point you are trying to get at, if any? Specifically, how this relates to the alleged directional element in this verse?
Peace brother wakas
You said one must not understand 100%.Agreed. I said atleast to an extent. I think we are saying the samething and we have taken for granted the language used.
My request is this, when one is upholding the bond,he is confronted with a verse with variose interpretations. He is contemplating on the possibilities to arrive at the actual meaning to the level of his understanding. Sometimes it easily resoved but sometimes this take time.What happene to the bond?
Concluded without submission?
Bond suspended till the meaning is uncovered?
Submission blindly?
This is the request.
Peace.ZUBAIRUS
peace zubairus,
My understanding is that the regular/timed bond would end the same way, with sjd/acknowledgement.
If someone shows you how to clean a car, but you dont understand one aspect of the task, this does not mean you should suspend all car cleaning activity. You apply what you know, build from there, with sincerity, e.g. 37, 3918, 1736. One still acknowledges the direction/goal and takes steps in this direction.
Peace brother wakas,
Honestly your anology is not satisfying. And when we talk of mummeen he has accepted that the entire message is from Allah. But in upholding the bond, the understanding and submission in question are with regards to the particular vers or verses read.
Brother, look at it from this perspective,if it had been that you upheld bond for me using these verse 4101 to 103, we both beleive they are from Allah I suppose, but see how far we have come trying to arrive at what is meant in the verses.
In a situation like this, how can I submit when I am yet to agree to your understanding, neither do you agree to mine?What happen to the bond I repeat?
Peace.
ZUBAIRUS
peace,
Who says you have to agree with me to uphold the bond? Evidence please.
Peace brother wakas,
Definitely we submit to the message. But naturally these are the possibilities- the message is read by the one leading,it is understood,we submit
- the message is read by the one leading, we seek for explanation on what is read,it is understood, we submit.
- the message is read by the one leading, we seek for explanation, but the explanation not satisfactory, we seek for further explanation and so it continues.
Do you think otherwise?
Peace.
ZUBAIRUS
peace zubairus,
I see it as sjd/acknowledgement of God/His message, not the one leading the regular/timed salat/bond.
I am of the view, that all regular/timed salat/bond end with sjd/acknowldgement, and understanding 100% is irrelevant. For example, if someone reads something to me and I believe/accept the source, then if I disagree with the interpretation or not it is irrelevant, because I know that same source requires me to continue to seek knowledge, have patience, be good, follow what is solid, listen to others and follow what is best etc so I acknowledge this direction.
Peace brother wakas,
Let us clarify a point.
In upholding bond among the mumeenun,peaple who already believe that the entire message is from Allah, is the target to understand what is said and submit to it or just to submit it is from Allah.
Is it that in your concept of bond among the mumeenun, understanding of what is said is not included?
Remember 100% understanding was mentioned by you.Peace.
ZUBAIRUS
peace zubairus,
Please re-read all my replies to you in this thread, especially #30.
Thanks.
