Belief in AlQuran

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Just a few questions

Muslim means submitter to God? If that is true then I agree with you that anyone who submits to God is Muslim
If someone lives their life according to the Quran but never reads it, are they wrong?
I do not know what jannah means, but why would it be restricted to Muslims (in the narrower meaning of the word)?
Many people (including myself) read the Quran and do not reject it, yet I have not converted to Islam. Am I still a kaffir?
How can someone who believes in God be an "unbeliever" just because they are in a different religion?

Once again, just a few random thoughts.

Explained in my previous post. It is simply someone who trusts in/acknowledges God, does righteous deeds/reform and believes in the hereafter.
"We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?" (5417, 5422, 5432, 5440)

565 If the people of the book only would have acknowledged and been aware, We would have cancelled for them their sins and admitted them to gardens of paradise.

566 If they had upheld the Torah, the Injeel, and what was sent down to them from their Lord (Quran), they would have been rewarded from above them and below their feet. From among them is a pious nation, but many of them commit evil.

"Jannah" means "hidden garden/garden". It is open to all muslims (see definition above).
One doesnt "convert" to islam be uttering some magic Arabic words. You are already a muslim, IMO, since you acknowledge God, the last day/hereafter and you (probably) engage in righteous deeds/reform.
262 Surely those who acknowledge, and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and those who follow other religions, any one of them who acknowledge God and the Last day, and do reform, they will have their reward with their Lord, with no fear over them, nor will they grieve.

Mazhar

Quote from Mazhar on Yesterday at 023350 PM
Whoever, in time and space, notwithstanding by what name they were known and famous in their respective periods, will qualify if they had followed the Book of their period. Today the prevalent Book of Allah is ONLY Grand Qur'aan which affirms and sanctifies the Books sent earlier in time and space.

Mazhar, I cannot understand you read ?A? and come up with ?B?. There?s no ?book of the period? in any of the ayaat you quoted. 2/38 for examples speaks of kalimaat/words which will redeem Adam.

As for the only prevalent book of Allah, would God be fair entire mankind on their acceptance or rejection of the Quran as a text (not reject its teachings but the text itself)? Some people were born never even knowing Quran and God is gonna chuck them into hell for that?! Others were shown the horrible example of Muslims (blowing up stuff while holding the Quran yelling Allahu akbar!)? Sorry man, that doesn?t tally at all. Quran is the best source of guidance, it?s never the only source of guidance.

Let us not wander in the whole universe. We are not concerned about those who never even know the existence of Qur'aan. All reference quoted were in connection with a specific understanding of a friend on the forum, responding Rev John's point
.
Many people (including myself) read the Quran and do not reject it, yet I have not converted to Islam. Am I still a kaffir?

The basic and fundamental obligation of a reader of a book is to either reject the stuff contained in it or accept it. One cannot do the two things simulteneously, neither he rejects it nor he accepts it. This will only reflect one is in state of perplexity, confusion, is indecisive.

For every moment in time there is a book

For each and every moment/period there is a Book.

And ever since the arrival of Qur'aan this is the Book for the entire humanity till the Last Day. Whomever Qur'aan reaches he has to decide whether he accepts it and becomes believer or opts to refuse/reject it and become Kafir, one who denies.

Rev_John

Let us not wander in the whole universe. We are not concerned about those who never even know the existence of Qur'aan. All reference quoted were in connection with a specific understanding of a friend on the forum, responding Rev John's point
.
The basic and fundamental obligation of a reader of a book is to either reject the stuff contained in it or accept it. One cannot do the two things simulteneously, neither he rejects it nor he accepts it. This will only reflect one is in state of perplexity, confusion, is indecisive.

For every moment in time there is a book

For each and every moment/period there is a Book.

And ever since the arrival of Qur'aan this is the Book for the entire humanity till the Last Day. Whomever Qur'aan reaches he has to decide whether he accepts it and becomes believer or opts to refuse/reject it and become Kafir, one who denies.

I don't think there is anything in the Quran to reject.

nsws1988

I don't think there is anything in the Quran to reject.

how about the commandments and prohibitions?

Rev_John

how about the commandments and prohibitions?

Most if not all are contained in the bible too

nsws1988

Most if not all are contained in the bible too

If you accept them and accept that they are orders and prohibitions from God, do you follow them?

Mazhar

I don't think there is anything in the Quran to reject.

When one arrives at this conclusion about any book, it becomes an obligation that he should wholeheartedly accept the verdict of the Book and pronounce his belief loudly and clearly and then physically follow its advises in different moments of his life. If this is not the reaction then one is like those who read books only for fun and killing time.

Rev_John

If you accept them and accept that they are orders and prohibitions from God, do you follow them?

I do my best, but as a human being, I fail sometimes

SarahY

Finally back to this thread (sorry for the delay)

Imfromjakarata

676-79 doesn?t exactly mention what makes a muslim.. it?s Ibrahims story

Agreed. Does good work, believes in God = muslim (4133)

28 doesn?t define mumin. Jews /Christians (generally speaking) believe in God and last day but I wouldn?t classify them as mumineen. I think the mutaqeen are the mumineen (22)
And they believe in the gayb/unseen, establish salat and spend from their possessions (23)

(ya ayuha) allathina aminou phrase.. i find it interesting how it?s used in 262
inna ?allathina aminou? those who believe, and Jews, Christians and sabians ?mun amina billah? who believe in God.

Like it uses iman to differentiate the muslims or mumins and then the Jews et al. 569 uses same concept. It makes me think why differentiate..

In regards to 4170. The message has come to us and it is better for us to believe in it (the Quran). When I initially was reading the verse it kind of felt it implicated there will be some who reject the message (duh obviously) but what I mean is, it feels weird saying this but I almost felt it was saying it?s not a necessity to follow. So I read over it and understood it differently more like we have no escape from God.

I totally agree with you in terms of who go to Heaven and who go to Hell only Allah has knowledge about it. However Allah asked us to judge using the Books, it applies for people who receive Taurat, Injil, (please read QS 544-45 and QS 547) as well as al-Qur'an. All the decision using judgment from the Book must be fair to all parties involve in dispute.

For me the Quran is complete and I don?t need to judge by them (previous books) for example the verse says ?wakatabna ?alayhim? It?s directed to them, what God wrote for them. Not for us to use their scripture to judge by. Also I believe 548 verifies the truth in their scriptures is what is in accordance with Quran.

In regards to intentions, I think they matter and actions also. I see them working simultaneously. You don?t rob a bank to give to the poor, that?s like cheating. The verse you mentioned 2225 implicates intention. However our deeds are very important and will be ours 997-8

Wakas

You?re right, i should study more than enquire through others thoughts/opinions. I guess laziness and procrastination mixes up and creates frustration. So venting thoughts on the forum can help, kinda like a motivator.

Preconceived notions can be difficult to challenge/recognise or to even look at it objectively.

I?m yet to finish the book, i decided to skip a few 100 pages lol and read the kufr section (part of it actually, VII) interesting. I had already had the thought that kufr would be that one reject truth after one has been revealed or shown it based on surah 98. Yet it?s more than that, the idea of ?ungratefulness? never really come to my mind. Though when I read that bit I instantly thought of Sulayman in regards to the throne in which it?s said ?aashkuru am akfuru? (2740). I can see that shukr is something I personally should focus on.

BTW others should read the book (even though I haven?t finished, yes I recommend it!) it?s good as it makes you look at concepts in light you probably haven?t looked at (well for me at least). I think it helps abolish preconceived notions by studying Quran through Quran and the understanding of words by their root. It definitely helps and it?s not just a bunch of words put together, it?s explained thoroughly. So thumbs up for that!

Mazhar

They way I have understood the concepts of muslim and mumin is that a mumin will strive according to Quran, whereas a muslim will do good and believe in God. So in regards to 5721

Mumins also believe in Muhammad as Rasool and thus their actions will be rewarded with jannah.

Maybe i?m missing something.. but that?s my thought.

Abdalquran

You said mumins are the ones who answer to ?alladhina aamanoo? so in regards to verses like 262 and 569
inna ?allathina aminou? those who believe, and Jews, Christians and Sabians ?mun amina billah? who believe in God.

The verses use the ?iman? term twice to differentiate between the two, almost like the iman is different.. but not exactly. It?s still calling out to both who have iman. So you reckon only the calling to alladhina aamanou is to mumins, and any other iman call wouldn?t be mumins? Basically what significance do you think it is with the differentiation? If you think there is any?

Keeping your theory allathina aminou in mind, what type of ?believers? are not lost in regards to surah103? All people of iman? Including Christians /Jews?

My thoughts are the ones with iman are the ones who believe in God and Quran unless stated otherwise. So I would think it?s the mumin?s who aminou who are the saved ones. However the Jews, Christians, Sabians will get their ajr/reward.

In regards to muqeen I?m not sure, I would assume one who is a mumin and truly is striving (through their true conviction of their heart) to follow the guide that they have yaqeen, otherwise why gamble? But I dunno I would have to look up the terms possibly it has links with mumin or mutaqeen.

Progressive1993
Thanks for sharing your thought. I had in mind the preconceived notion of kufr as simply ?disbelief? though clearly it?s more than that.

san

All very good questions...

Actually, "muslim" simply means one who is peaceful, or one who submits. The concept of God doesn't even occur in this word's usage, and the idea of it specifically referring to the act of submitting to God depends on the context.
I wouldn't think so. The Qur'aan says that the "ahlu al kitaab" (people of the book), which many determine to be the Jews and Nazarenes, can also be viewed as believers. Therefore, if Jew lives according to the Torah, which is also a revelation from God, he shouldn't be found guilty, nor should a Nazarene who lives according to the Torah and Evangel.
Jannah simply refers to "paradise", and it's not limited to those who call themselves "Muslims".
No. The idea of "kufr" is not based on 'converting to Islaam', it's about accepting God's signs and avoiding idolatry. Therefore, in that sense, 'converting' is not a requirement of anyone, as long as you believe in God, believe in His angels (or controlling forces), believe in His messengers and scriptures, and believe in the judgement.
That's a good question, and I think that depends on how a person perceives God. For example, Trinitarians believe in God, but they are rebuked in the Qur'aan. People who believe that Jesus was 'God Incarnate' believe in God too, but they're also rebuked in the scripture. I think it's important to believe in the complete oneness of God, assigning no partners to Him whatsoever. As long as you do this, I think you'll be okay...

God knows best.

Just a correction intended, Ahmad Bilal,

This is mathematically unsound Jannah ... it's not limited to those who call themselves "Muslims". CMIIW, but that statement implies

is a superset of
or
is a subset of

which is not true, according to Alqur'aan.

Had you written Jannah simply refers to "paradise", and the prospect of entering it is not limited to those who call themselves "Muslims" , there would be no need for this correction.

Reading 4145, we may conclude that 'Those who call themselves "Muslims"' while they are actually Almunafiquwn may enter the deepest/worst hell. Unless they return as per 4146. This clarification is needed so no one who reads that statement should feel safe just because they think/call themselves as "Muslims".

7027 (AlmuSalliyn) And those who are fearful of the punishment of their Lord.
7028 Indeed, the punishment of their Lord is not safe

Peace

Wakas

peace,

Wakas

You?re right, i should study more than enquire through others thoughts/opinions. I guess laziness and procrastination mixes up and creates frustration. So venting thoughts on the forum can help, kinda like a motivator.

Enquiry is a good thing, but a balance must be struck with one's own study, that's all I was implying.

Preconceived notions can be difficult to challenge/recognise or to even look at it objectively.

True. Difficult, but not impossible. Like most things, one can train oneself to be better at it. My favourite online course on critical thinking

http//web.archive.org/web/20040415023848/http/www.santarosa.edu/~dpeterso/permanenthtml/lessonFRAME.html
(click through each lesson)

And either one of these I regularly refer to
http//www.logicalfallacies.info/
http//www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

Mazhar

Mazhar

They way I have understood the concepts of muslim and mumin is that a mumin will strive according to Quran, whereas a muslim will do good and believe in God. So in regards to 5721

Mumins also believe in Muhammad as Rasool and thus their actions will be rewarded with jannah.

Maybe i?m missing something.. but that?s my thought.

A plain and matter of common sense is that one believes in a thing/concept and then acts on it. In believing there is no physical activity involved. Once someone accepts/believes and declares so he becomes believer/Momin. How would he prove that what he says is true. Only by action, and that is called Islam, Deen, physical demonstration and prove of ones belief.

A person can be a muslim, follower of Islam but may not be a momin. And similarly a person who declares he believes may not be a momin yet physically acts as a muslim for deception. And a person who is momin but did not act as muslim his believing is of no avail. Both will land in hell. Exception is only for the one who wholeheartedly became a Momin at any given point in time and immediately thereafter did not find time and died, that is why it is also stated without qualifying or linking it with righteous deeds that Paradise is prepared for those who believed in Allah and all His Messengers.

abdalquran

You said mumins are the ones who answer to ?alladhina aamanoo? so in regards to verses like 262 and 569
inna ?allathina aminou? those who believe, and Jews, Christians and Sabians ?mun amina billah? who believe in God.

The verses use the ?iman? term twice to differentiate between the two, almost like the iman is different.. but not exactly. It?s still calling out to both who have iman. So you reckon only the calling to alladhina aamanou is to mumins, and any other iman call wouldn?t be mumins? Basically what significance do you think it is with the differentiation? If you think there is any?

Well, as we discussed before, there are grades of iman. The first set of people (alladhina aamanou) are those who answer the calls given in Quran. Not necessarily all of them, of course. However, the bare minimum is the 'man amana billah' bit.

Keeping your theory allathina aminou in mind, what type of ?believers? are not lost in regards to surah103? All people of iman? Including Christians /Jews?

I think 'tawasau bil haqq and bis sabr' is another explanation of amal as-salih so yeah, it's for any people who follow this.

My thoughts are the ones with iman are the ones who believe in God and Quran unless stated otherwise. So I would think it?s the mumin?s who aminou who are the saved ones. However the Jews, Christians, Sabians will get their ajr/reward.

I dunno, the 'no fear nor grief' bit isn't limited to earth (or it'd say 'fid dunya&#039. I think its a matter of lower garden or higher garden. I don't think that these refer to jews, christians, sabians anyway. I think we need to research the meanings and find ones fitting to the Quranic message which doesnt acknowledge religious groupings.

In regards to muqeen I?m not sure, I would assume one who is a mumin and truly is striving (through their true conviction of their heart) to follow the guide that they have yaqeen, otherwise why gamble? But I dunno I would have to look up the terms possibly it has links with mumin or mutaqeen.

At the moment, I think muqeen is the highest level of iman. 49/14-15 seems to agree with that. But yes, we need to research further.

Thanks for a thought provoking discussion.

san

Peace,

At the moment, I think muqeen is the highest level of iman. 49/14-15 seems to agree with that. But yes, we need to research further.

Thanks for a thought provoking discussion.

Muqeen? You mean muttaqeen (Almuttaqiyn)? I don't know about the highest level of Imaan, but yea i agree it surely ranks among the highest. Whether it's Almuttaqiyn or AlmuHsiniyn (or else) which ranks the highest, you'll find their descriptions in AQ intersect with each other. (btw 4914-15 ends with AlSaAdiquwn and i can't find muttaqiyn in them--sure you quoted the right verse number?)

Maybe it will be something like (all terms in plural)

muslimiyn --> mu'miniyn --> muSliHiyn (those who does `aml SaliHat) --> ... ... ... --> muHsiniyn/muttaqiyn/...?

maybe these will fall in between or as part of the above (e.g., part of muSliHiyn or muHsiniyn or muttaqiyn), and more importantly, they don't necessarily fall in a linear hiearchy

muSalliyn those who perform SalaAt
mujahidiyn those who strive in the way of Allah
Sabiriyn those who persevere/are patient (in hardship)
Hasiiyn (Khashiiyn) those who are khushu` (certain that they will meet Allah)
sakiriyn those who are thankful to Allah
Saadiqiyn those who are truthful
qaanitiyn those who are obedient?
munfiqiyn those who spend in the way of Allah
mustaGfiriyn those who ask for Allah's forgiveness
tawwabiyn those who return to Allah
mutaTahhiriyn those who clean/purify themselves
muqsiTiyn those who maintain justice
mutawakkiliyn those who put all trust and rely on Allah
...

on the opposite there are munaafiqiyn, kaafiriyn, faasiqiyn ...

Some of those are roles or characters with specific action or characteristic while others are hybrid or combination or composite of other roles/characters.

It'd be nice if we have a complete 'map' of those roles/characters for study or practical purpose.

Peace

(ed grammar)

Jack

28 doesn?t define mumin. Jews /Christians (generally speaking) believe in God and last day but I wouldn?t classify them as mumineen. I think the mutaqeen are the mumineen (22)
And they believe in the gayb/unseen, establish salat and spend from their possessions (23)

If you look at 3113-115, ahul al kitab can be muttaqeen. I don't hold to the view that people of the book = jew, christians, etc. People of the book must be studied on its own. Like every other group mentioned in the Reading, there are good and bad among them.

If Iman is a literal thing, how do you explain 3441.

Peace,

You mean muttaqeen (Almuttaqiyn)? I don't know about the highest level of Imaan, but yea i agree it surely ranks among the highest. Whether it's Almuttaqiyn or AlmuHsiniyn (or else) which ranks the highest, you'll find their descriptions in AQ intersect with each other. (btw 4914-15 ends with AlSaAdiquwn and i can't find muttaqiyn in them--sure you quoted the right verse number?)

Muttaqeen, almuhsynin etc are not specific groups, they are states, aspects of a mumin. See we start out as muslims and slowly we work our way up to the status of a mumin... If we read carefuly 22-9+ we'll see that muttaqeen are a) being contrasted with kafireen and b) being used synonymously for a mumin

22 for example tells us that al kitab is a guidance for al-muttaqeen. 317 also an interesting verse. See also 938-44. Again muttaqeen and mumineen are being used interchangably.

san

Peace, Jack

Muttaqeen, almuhsynin etc are not specific groups, they are states, aspects of a mumin.

Hence i said they intersect with each other, the group/set is just a way to see it in particular. When GOD calls "Yaa ayyuha Alladiyna Aamanuw", whoever think of himself as mu'min will think they're called. Consider that as an imaginary or mathematical group/set. Not a group of people under the banner of "mu'miniyn". That indeed doesn't make sense.

Why the group/set view?

Because It ease you to break down such a complex concept as 'muttaqeen', 'almuHsiniyn' etc. If we wanted to reach that state, then we might as well study those "states" or "aspects" which may help us to reach it.

See we start out as muslims and slowly we work our way up to the status of a mumin... If we read carefuly 22-9+ we'll see that muttaqeen are a) being contrasted with kafireen and b) being used synonymously for a mumin

22 for example tells us that al kitab is a guidance for al-muttaqeen.

Let's continue that a little further

23 Alladiyna yu'minuwna bi'lGaybi wa yuqiymuwna 'lSalaAta wa mimmaA razaqnaA hum yunfiquwn
Who believe in the unseen, establish AlSalaAt, and of what We have provided for them they spend out

24 w Alladiyna yu'minuwna bimaA Unzila Ilayka wa maA Unzila min qablika wa bi'lAaHirati hum yuwqinuwn
And who believe in what has been revealed to you and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain.

That is how we understand Almuttaqiyn from these early verses.

Almuttaqiyn do believe in the unseen and establish AlSalaAt and spend out
Almuttaqiyn, in addition to our previous understanding of Almuttaqiyn, do believe in what has been revealed to them and what was revealed before them and certain of the Hereafter

But what is AlGaiyb? What is AlSalaAt? How and to whom we spend? What is AlAaHirat? Through the Quran, more information on Almuttaqiyn and also on those terms/words/concepts not made clear in the earlier verses are then revealed gradually. This is an example. The next ones also from what you referred

317 also an interesting verse. See also 938-44. Again muttaqeen and mumineen are being used interchangably.

317 is another excellent example on how various other characters/roles/states/aspects are used to describe another character/state. The context of the verse must be studied to understand what character/state is being described. (hint 315). Either you see it that way (the latter explaining the former) or another (the former explaining the latter), your understanding of all of those characters/states would increase collectively (mentioned the concepts of ittaquw, `ibad, jannah, Imaan, IstiGfar, Sabr, Sadiq, qanit, infaq).

944 Those who believe in Allah and the Last Day would not ask permission of you to be excused from striving with their wealth and their lives. And Allah is Knowing of those who fear Him (Almuttaqiyn).

To understand why Almuttaqiyn is used to end this verse, let's see 2177, which includes believe in Allah and the Last Day. Those were informed to us to be parts of what Almuttaqiyn do. So, by including the word Almuttaqiyn in the verse 944, don't you think Allah reminded us of a concept more complete than that described in 944?

Now finally, re "synonymously", let me ask you something, Jack

If we took muttaqiyn and mu'minuwn as synonym, how can we learn something new from each?
Why there are two distinct words used if they are indeed synonym?

Peace

bkanwar2

I would contend and humbly submit that there is hardly ANY HUMANBEING on this planet earth that does not believe in Qur'an. It is only the current perverted definition/concept of Qur'an; they do not agree with or believe in.

Peace

Badar

nsws1988

I would contend and humbly submit that there is hardly ANY HUMANBEING on this planet earth that does not believe in Qur'an. It is only the current perverted definition of Qur'an; they do not agree with or believe in.

Peace

Badar

And many do not agree that it is a divine book from God but rather made up by the prophet Mohammed PBUH

bkanwar2

And many do not agree that it is a divine book from God

This precisely represent part of the current misconception about the Arabic word AL-Qur'an.

but rather made up by the prophet Mohammed PBUH

so is this part

Badar

nsws1988

This precisely represent part of the current misconception about the Arabic word AL-Qur'an.
so is this part

Badar

It does not have to be a misconception. Just an opinion.

What is your view?