Belief in AlQuran
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Asalamu alaikum
kn
Taqwa means " Enabling yourself to gaurd against ". It then depends as to what you want to gaurd yourself against.
When you hear the concept ittaqu lah, you don?t think guard yourself against God. You think (well at least i do) follow the rules, be conscious of God or guard yourself against "angering" God. As abdalquran said being ?mindful? of Allah... not exactly guarding and it?s not the same mindful as dhikr.
Yep alkitab has the principles. In certain ways ?muslim? is more of a social/political term. Not all muslims follow the principles of the Quran. I mean unless you believe all these principles were here before it was revealed and Ibrahim followed the exact same thing. The underlying message yes, though the actual Quran?
Though having said that, a muslim could well and truly follow the system/laws of Quran. However, they?d be more than a muslim. I guess i?m not sure if it?s necessary to be labelled other than that but it helps make distinctions or helps one gain closeness by indicating the attributes/actions one does to be closer to God.
San
Ok the possibility of straying against sirat almustaqwwn is what we?re not safe from, that?s the fear. Us not following the right path, the path of goodness and only good and thus by straying we fear the punishment we could receive.
NOTE i think it will be better to preserve the original word of -- at least -- the reference word, while studying every occurrence of that reference word in all its form. Only then we can compare all those verses without 'preconceived notions' of the translator(s), which are usually inconsistent anyway.
Ok but we?re kinda doing that anyway aren?t we? We know it?s original is taqwa and we?re looking at the root..
BTW sorry for not articulating my thoughts clearly.
In regards to 102, I thought the 1022 was in relation to death, how do you see it? I was challenged by this thought before by a friend of mine. Do you think it could be literally visiting the grave?
Plus 1025 makes me think ?if you knew the ?knowledge? of yaqeen? like if they knew yaqeen they would know they would get jahananam. Yet they doubted or had no yaqeen and now they received ?ayn elyaqeen because they see it. Also i don?t think we need
ayn alyaqeen or at least we don't need to worry about it ? (maybe) because we believe in the ghayb and also we are learning or establishing/edlm alyaqeen. What happens after death would be the truth of all certainty 5695...Salam
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Ok but we?re kinda doing that anyway aren?t we? We know it?s original is taqwa and we?re looking at the root..
yes we do, but that (preserving the reference word -- especially when presenting a verse in translation) would also benefit others who read this thread. Just a suggestion though, directed to no one in particular
In regards to 102, I thought the 1022 was in relation to death, how do you see it?
same way you do
I was challenged by this thought before by a friend of mine. Do you think it could be literally visiting the grave?
Isn't death a literal meaning of "visiting the grave"? Still i think a pragmatic approach would be to associate this Sura with death & graveyard. Why? because then everytime we see or hear death or grave, we will be reminded of "yaqeen".
Plus 1025 makes me think ?if you knew the ?knowledge? of yaqeen? like if they knew yaqeen they would know they would get jahananam. Yet they doubted or had no yaqeen and now they received ?ayn elyaqeen because they see it. Also i don?t think we need
ayn alyaqeen or at least we don't need to worry about it ? (maybe) because we believe in the ghayb and also we are learning or establishing/edlm alyaqeen. What happens after death would be the truth of all certainty 5695...Salam
yes That is in line with my understanding. If we count the (very long?) time between death and the Day of Judgement, surely haqqul`yaqeen is after the Day of Judgement, because it seems to happen in the Fire itself... I agree with the text in blue above.
Salaam
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My friend argues what would be the point of yaqeen if it is achieved after death? I think it's a valid point. Think about visiting the grave doesn't it make us certain?
Isn't death a literal meaning of "visiting the grave"? Still i think a pragmatic approach would be to associate this Sura with death & graveyard. Why? because then everytime we see or hear death or grave, we will be reminded of "yaqeen".
Possibly however i'm unsure. visiting the grave can make people more aware/conscious of the inevitable. the yaqeen of death. the eye of certainty through viewing others who have died before?
I tried searching if there is any other word relating to zur/zurtum etc but i found none. maybe my searching is terrible but i found none. i know in everyday language ziyara is associated with visit.
ok i just looked up the root
i found other verses but their meaning isn't visit nor death
Zay-Waw-Ra = visit, visitor, incline towards, he honoured him, falsify/beautify/embellish, lie/untruth, adjust/correct, decline or turn aside from it, determination.
Zurtum (prf. 2nd m. plu.) You visited
Tazaawaru (imp. 3rd. p. f. VI.) She deviates
Zuura (acc. n.)
Zuuru (nom. n) Falsehood; False speech; False
zara vb. (I)
perf. act. 1022
zur n.m. 2230, 254, 2572, 582
tazawara vb. (VI) - impf. act. 1817(just for your reference)
In ways I feel more inclined to believe it is visit...
Salam
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My friend argues what would be the point of yaqeen if it is achieved after death? I think it's a valid point. Think about visiting the grave doesn't it make us certain?
Hence the suggestion -- still it won't be as certain as seeing the Hell for yourself (we will all see it finally) and never as certain as being in the Hell itself.
Yes, for those who don't have yaqeen in this current life, by knowledge, what is the point of having yaqeen after death, indeed? They couldn't escape it anymore...
May ALLAH protects us from His fire.
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CORRECTIONs for my previous example -- grammar and semantic
See, for example, someone who just have believed in Allah and the Last Day and have done nothing else? Is he a mu'min? He is beginning to be a mu'min, i'd say. Is he a muttaqiyn? No, he's not even yet a "complete" mu'min.
Then when he already believed all the concepts needed to be believed to be a mu'min, he is now a mu'min. Is he a muttaqiyn? Not necessarily. He must do the actions of taqwa to be a muttaqiyn.
should be
See, for example, someone who just have believed in Allah and the Last Day and have done nothing else? Is he a mu'min? He is beginning to be a mu'min, i'd say. Is he a muttaqi? He's not even yet a "complete" mu'min.
(He will need belief in ALLAH, the Last Day, AlmalaA'ikat, the Book, and the Prophets before he can do the actions of taqwa consciously for ALLAH)
Then when he already believed all the concepts needed to be believed to be a mu'min, he is now a "complete" mu'min. Is he a muttaqi? Not necessarily yet, but he is beginning to be a muttaqi. He must do all the actions of taqwa to be a "complete" muttaqi.
Sorry for the confusion -- clarified what i meant, hopefully...
Salaam
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Jack
What is jinn firstly? How do you see it? (you can ignore this if you like, read on)
Create a new thread!
When children learn for example, they see a cat it has four legs, it has fur. They then see a dog and think ?cat? because it contains the same characteristics of fur + 4 legs but it?s not a cat, we know it?s not because a dog barks a cat doesn?t. so the child accommodates their knowledge to something else and calls it ?cat? then when new knowledge is learnt, they learn ah it barks it must be a ?dog? not a cat because someone identified that for them or they learnt that somehow... so their knowledge assimilates.
Possibly adults are the same in some instances we may identify things as we know it until shown a different meaning.
think about people who believe in superstitions they dunno why but they think ?what if? so they believe them. They dunno what it is or what it exactly means but they believe in them.They believe in them, so what? Are we talking about belief or knowledge? The what-if-game is circular. What if worshipping satan is the right path?
Belief doesn?t have to be logical.
Why not? God will call me to account for my hearing, eyesight and MY MIND 1736, Why believe at all? Anyone can say I believe in x,y,z. Doesn't mean anything... Ibrahim wasn't satisfied by mere iman (2260). He needed evidence, in addition to his iman. God showed him what he needed to see.
And yes iman can be shown through our actions i agree, no it?s not a superficial thing. But let me tell you, I can believe in AlQuran i can believe in the laws i can be a muslim and i can ?choose? to let me desires/wishes/whims control me even though i ?still believe? in the Quran. My actions may not show true reflections of my belief but i could still believe yet my desires/wishes/whims control me or rather i would let them control me however i still believe.
It's about intentions. What about the people who claim to believe in the quran, yet INTENTIONALLY commit evil? Do they REALLY believe in the quran? Again to reiteriate, belief in the quran would be believing in its teachings. Of course, belief is not the best translation for iman and its derivatives anyway (see 5923 Is God the believer/faithful ?!).
You mentioned killing, i could kill someone and feel guilt that i did an evil deed and that i?m going to be punished. I could still believe in Quran and still do bad. I think it would just have a really bad psychological toll.
And what about the people who don't feel guilt, etc? Who think killing is for the greater good, etc? Again it's about intentions.
Besides that, i think people can get an overall idea through translations.
Will the God call people to account for rejecting a translator's rendition of al quran? Are translations al haqq? Al quran is al kitab bil haqq. Not Asad, yusf ali, et al.
438, 6112-113, and 6150 support my position that true iman is shown through one's actions.
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Peace
@san, you should study 231-11 to get to understand what Jack probably meant by "synonym"
While Imaan, taqwa, IHsaan are not necessarily synonymous, the "end state" of Almu'minuwn and Almuttaquwn and AlmuHsiniyn might be very similar as the concepts above interact with each other.
@Jack, while i do not agree on the exact word "synonym", is this in line with what you meant?
Peace peace
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Peace Jack
Create a new thread!
Noway dude! Too much to think about it?ll do my head inside out i?ve already put enough on my plate, thanks but if you like you can do it
What i mean is they believe based on what they know ?knowledge? and also what they?re told ?without? understanding. So the idea of them following jinn is well and truly possible even though they dunno what ?jinn? is, get it?
Sure we need and want evidence but not all people do. Think about how many people are blind believers as i said, belief doesn?t need logic. I can believe Paris Hilton is the best thing on earth, i don?t need logic for that. Obviously i don't believe that but just saying sorry lame example but do you get my drift?
It's about intentions. What about the people who claim to believe in the quran, yet INTENTIONALLY commit evil? Do they REALLY believe in the quran? Again to reiteriate, belief in the quran would be believing in its teachings. Of course, belief is not the best translation for iman and its derivatives anyway (see 5923 Is God the believer/faithful ?!).
Well what are you on about.. many people intentionally commit evil, for whatever gain it is they think they may gain. None of us a free from sin/evil.. could all of one persons sins be ?accidental?? it?d like to meet such a person, besides all sins are forgiven except the shirk ones. You can believe its teachings and aim to follow it and still falter but the point is to amend. Those who intentionally sin and continue to intentionally sin and continue to repeat the sin and then act like they don?t care because God forgives, well that?s another story.
Maybe killing is for the greater good Nah seriously i dunno, intentions and actions work hand in hand. I can intend something really good like making someone happy but i could cross the line and commit sins by that process. What is good what is bad? Depends how you want to look at it.
So people reject translators they even reject studies. God can deal with them, it?s not really my concern. Actions matter most definitely i don?t deny that, is one who strives the same as the one who sits? Off course not (495).
Salam
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Albirr is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west,
but Albirr is
those who believe inHere Albirr is not being defined. "Albirr is those who believe" looks quite an odd statement.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/002.47.gif
It is not virtue that you people turn your faces facing face to face/confronting East and West,
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.177e.gif
instead virtue is of that person who believed in Allah, and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book , and the Chosen & Elevated Servants of Allah;
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.177g{spent%20money%20on%20nearones...}.gif
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.177g{sail}.gif
and he spent wealth for sake of Allah to the relatives, and the orphans, and the destitute, and the wayfarer, and those who seek help, and to get freedom for the slaves/prisoners;
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.177h%20ssalat.gif
and he maintained Ass-Sa'laat and paid Az-Zakaa't;
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.177a.gif
and they/such are the people who honour their pledges when they have entered into a pledge;
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.177b.gif
and they remain coolly perseverant in financial crisis and adversity and in times of poverty/war.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.177f.gif
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.177k%20muttaqoona.gif
They are the people who have proved their word as true; and they are the people who are truly cautious, heedful, and mindful avoiding unrestrained conduct.http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/002.02.C.142.htm
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4914
Say the A`raab "We believe."
qlati l-arbu mannSay, "Not you believe"; but say, "We submitted," and has not entered the Imaan in your hearts
qul lam tu'min walkin ql aslamn wa lamm yadkhuli l-mnu f qulbikumand if you obey Allah and His Messenger, not He deprive you of your deeds anything.
wa in tu l-laha wa raslahu l yalit'kum min amlikum shay'anIndeed Allah Gafuwr rahiym
inna l-laha ghafrun ramun4915
Only the believers those who believe with Allah and His Messenger,
innam l-mu'minna alladhna man bil-lahi wa raslihithen (do) not doubt and strive with their wealth and their lives in (the) way (of) Allah.
thumma lam yartb wa jhad bi-amwlihim wa anfusihim f sabli l-lahiThose they (are) the truthful."
ulika humu l-diqnaThe first word of verse (4915) is divided into 2 morphological segments. An accusative particle and preventive particle. The accusative particle belongs to a special group of words known as inna and her sisters ( ا. The preventive particle m stops inna from taking its normal role in the sentence. Together the segments are known as kfa wa makffa ( ة. (http//quran.uk.net/WordMorphology.aspx?location=%2849151%29)
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Peace Sarah,
What i mean is they believe based on what they know ?knowledge? and also what they?re told ?without? understanding. So the idea of them following jinn is well and truly possible even though they dunno what ?jinn? is, get it?
Yes I had this thought in the back of my mind concerning the jinn. But the verse states they were MUMIN in the jinn. Who goes around believing in jinn? Doesn't matter what you view them as be it physical beings, fantasies, hidden, etc. Who claims (again malayka say most of humanity) to believe in any of that?
Sure we need and want evidence but not all people do. Think about how many people are blind believers as i said, belief doesn?t need logic. I can believe Paris Hilton is the best thing on earth, i don?t need logic for that. Obviously i don't believe that but just saying sorry lame example but do you get my drift?
Who cares what most people do? Just because the belief of most people is illogical, doesn't mean ours should be. It doesn't prove anything. It just shows how sheepish humans are. I would rather concern myself with the quranic definition of iman. Have a look at 944-45 for another example of iman vs. no iman.
many people intentionally commit evil, for whatever gain it is they think they may gain. None of us a free from sin/evil.. could all of one persons sins be ?accidental?? it?d like to meet such a person, besides all sins are forgiven except the shirk ones. You can believe its teachings and aim to follow it and still falter but the point is to amend. Those who intentionally sin and continue to intentionally sin and continue to repeat the sin and then act like they don?t care because God forgives, well that?s another story.
Of course not all 'sins' are accidental. "God forgives all sins except shrik ones" I assume you speak of 448 or 3953? 448 says shrik is a big ithm. 3953 says god protects all zunoob period. . You are not getting my point. Intentions matter. You can say you believe in the quran and INTENTIONALLY do bad things. Would that mean you actually believe in its teachings? If I say I believe in the quran and become a serial killer, what does my belief in this book prove? Nothing. Actions and intent. A person's actions aren't necessarily tied into believing/not believing a book. Belief, in itself, is meaningless without the right intentions/deeds which leads to belief in its teachings and THAT proves you actually believe in that book. True intentions (from the heart ) are ultimately shown through your works.
i dunno, intentions and actions work hand in hand. I can intend something really good like making someone happy but i could cross the line and commit sins by that process. What is good what is bad? Depends how you want to look at it.
Precisely they go hand in hand. Sure good/bad are subjective.
So people reject translators they even reject studies. God can deal with them, it?s not really my concern. Actions matter most definitely i don?t deny that, is one who strives the same as the one who sits? Off course not (495).
Salam )
Why should people study it? Does the quran force people to study it? Even believe? (1099, 2256). Don't take 495 out of context, its addressed to mumineen. You can do better than that P
Surely you haven't studied all books that claim to be from the God? I must say some of the translations are some rather callous works, It completely distorts the message.
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Salam Jack
Yes I had this thought in the back of my mind concerning the jinn. But the verse states they were MUMIN in the jinn. Who goes around believe in jinn? Doesn't matter what you view them as be it physical beings, fantasies, hidden, etc. Who claims (again malayka say most of humanity) to believe in any of that?
You know, you are confusing me with the whole jin/mumin thing. What is the context, is it dunya or akhira? Read from 3437 and tell me what I am supposed to see. What are you trying to tell me... That there are jin mumineen? Ok i get that? People worshipped them? Yet your implication to me is how can people worship something they don?t know! So tell me what am i supposed to be seeing because i can?t see what you?re trying to tell me.
Who cares what most people do? Just because the belief of most people is illogical, doesn't mean ours should be. It doesn't prove anything. It just shows how sheepish humans are. I would rather concern myself with the quranic definition of iman. Have a look at 944-45 for another example of iman vs. no iman.
Off course our logic should be logical. I was just trying to show you a perception about blind faith/belief. Proving it has no logic it can have no logic and people can be like that but forget it. As you say lets concern ourselves with Quranic iman vs no iman
Protects zunoob, period! What?s that supposed to mean? znb to my understanding has links to saye?a??! I mean the principle at least it has links to sins
Thal-Nun-Ba = to track, make a tale, add apendix, follow closely, become spotted.
Commit offence, fault, sin, wrong, act of disobedience, transgression.Dude i know intentions matter. Well maybe you?re a secret serial killer in a war or something killing all the bad guys who knows that might be good! Anyway enough fairytale stories, if you intentionally went against Quran and continued to do so even though you believed in it, then it could make you one of two things that i am aware of; a fasiq or kafir. I wonder if they have links... i?ll look into that later if you wanna get into that discussion i?m just doing a few too many things atm. note to self, stop wondering!
944-945 isn?t this context jihad? But sure the ones who truly believe will stay firm and not back down.
So yeh.. actions matter i came across this verse, supports your theory of actions and iman
3437 (Asad) For, it is neither your riches nor your children that can bring you nearer to Us only he who attains to faith and does what is right and just ; and it is these whom multiple recompense awaits for all that they have done; and it is they who shall dwell secure in the mansions ?Why should people study it? For jannah? For the hereafter, for a better life in this dunya for awareness for goodness, for haqq.. why do you think? No, Quran doesn?t force people to study it but it?s available for people to study.
i know 495 is addressed to mumineen, you see i thought you guys were mumineen i?m trying to uplift your spirits into proactive action! I?m not a walking Quran, cut me some slack.
My focus is Quran i don?t want to study other/all books so let?s focus on belief on AlQuran as that is our concern
(3941)
PEACE!
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Salam Sarah,
Salam Jack
You know, you are confusing me with the whole jin/mumin thing. What is the context, is it dunya or akhira? Read from 3437 and tell me what I am supposed to see. What are you trying to tell me... That there are jin mumineen? Ok i get that? People worshipped them? Yet your implication to me is how can people worship something they don?t know! So tell me what am i supposed to be seeing because i can?t see what you?re trying to tell me.
Point is, you don't have to profess something for it to be your iman. Therefore, iman is not about what you say. 'Saying' you believe in the quran, on the surface, is utterly meaningless.
Protects zunoob, period! What?s that supposed to mean?
I think there's a joke in there somewhere...
i.e. the verse says all zunoob! It doesn't qualify it with shrik being the exception etc.944-945 isn?t this context jihad? But sure the ones who truly believe will stay firm and not back down.
Right, and if they back down they cease to believe in god/al akhira. Hence, it's their actions that made them NOT believe in god/al-akhira
So yeh.. actions matter i came across this verse, supports your theory of actions and iman
3437 (Asad) For, it is neither your riches nor your children that can bring you nearer to Us only he who attains to faith and does what is right and just ; and it is these whom multiple recompense awaits for all that they have done; and it is they who shall dwell secure in the mansions ?Thanks. See also 3420-21, those who follow shaytan don't believe in alakhirah. Pay careful attention to min-almumineen in 3420. Do you think QuranistsTM are exempt here?
Why should people study it? For jannah? For the hereafter, for a better life in this dunya for awareness for goodness, for haqq.. why do you think? No, Quran doesn?t force people to study it but it?s available for people to study.
Man, if you need a book for all that you are screwed to begin with. I don't know how Ibrahim figured anything out without a quran to study...676-81.
3030
My focus is Quran i don?t want to study other/all books so let?s focus on belief on AlQuran as that is our concern
That's consistent. You won't study other books, but others SHOULD study this book to receive 'jannah' Is al-haqq limited to the quran?
(3941)
3941 is for whom the MESSAGE has reached, not a book called al quran. "You are not a keeper over them." - the messenger is not a wakeel over us/them. Did he start handing out qurans, 'here you go! go study it!' The messenger's job is also to clarify in the language of his qawm (144). Note this doesn't preclude some distant, modern-english-translation.
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Salam jack
Yes belief isn?t just what you utter, people can lie and people can profess to things they don?t believe. Saying you believe in something then doing something contrary to that belief is a worry or a sign of weak faith or lack of knowledge/understanding. Lots of possibilities... but my concern isn?t professing or hiding belief. Though you know you just kind of proved my point, they don?t need to profess in the belief of ?jinn? to believe in jin
Right, and if they back down they cease to believe in god/al akhira. Hence, it's their actions that made them NOT believe in god/al-akhira
Continue to read the verses following. Their actions affirmed their beliefs not that their actions made them not believe in God/akhira.
Thanks. See also 3420-21, those who follow shaytan don't believe in alakhirah. Pay careful attention to min-almumineen in 3420. Do you think QuranistsTM are exempt here?
No one is exempt from anything. Quranist can claim to follow Quran and represent Quran however at the end of the day it doesn?t matter what you label yourself as you will be accountable for your own actions. None of us are free from error even the best of the best.
Well i?m not Ibrahim and in that case I guess i?m screwed. Why believe in Quran if you don?t need it, why follow it? Gotta better guide, do share?
So belief in God and going good is enough, that gets jannah apparently? right? By what logic? Who says that is the case? Was it the Quran?
Why should i put effort into doing good as how Quran states if it has no avail? If just believing in God and doing good is good enough? Your implication is studying Quran isn?t worth your time because you can get the same reward simply be believing in God, doing good and contemplating about the universe.
So maybe you don?t need a guide but if you have one you?re better off, are you not? If you believe in it and you don?t follow it, what does it make you? Why not follow Quran? Why uphold Quran if you don?t need it?
Is al-haqq limited to the quran?
You tell me.
Alhaqq is in a lot of things. The ultimate haqq is Allah (2262 ) and i believe this haqq is shared with us in AlQuran read 2176.
if you don?t believe that Quran is haqq then i don?t know why people bother following it.
If we read the Quran and study it and reject it or don?t follow it, what does it make us? How then is belief in Quran necessary or unnecessary after that? wouldn't albayana be evident to them? (read chapter 9. Or maybe i can argue if God knew we didn?t need the Quran God wouldn?t have sent it.
To me belief in Quran is important. Probably i?m biased because of my background though others would say i'm a rebel.. i don?t know where life would have taken me otherwise. back to Ibrahim, i guess he followed the Quranic message without it, can many do that? I have no idea.
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Peace Sarah,
So belief in God and doing good is enough, that gets jannah apparently? right? By what logic? Who says that is the case? Was it the Quran?
Belief in God, the last day/period (hereafter) and doing reform/setting things right in society (aml slh) is the minimum that you need to attain salvation.
262 ...any one who trusts with God and the Last day, and does reform/sets things right, they will have their reward with their Lord, with no fear over them, nor will they grieve.
If we read the Quran and study it and reject it or don?t follow it, what does it make us? How then is belief in Quran necessary or unnecessary after that?
That's where the mumin vs. muslim concept comes in. A muslim (one who is peaceful/surrenders) is anyone who fuliflls the requirements given in 262 for salvation. In one of my posts before I told you to take notice of the "and". The mumins (those who trust) are those who uphold The Reading/Quran. Traditional "Muslims" call themselves "Muslims", but what many/most fail to realize is that it is not a proper name and that anyone who believes in God, does good/reform and believes in the last day/hereafter is a muslim. Hence, no matter how you call yourself - if you fulfill the mentioned criteria, you are a muslim.
4133 Who is better in saying than one who invites to God, works reform, and says "I am one of 'al muslimeen' (the peaceful/those who have surrendered)."
4615 ..."My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do/work righteousness/reform that pleases You. Let my progeny be righteous/reforming. I have repented to You; I am of 'al muslimeen'."
4616 It is from these that We accept the best of their deeds, and We shall overlook their bad deeds. (They are) among the dwellers of the garden. This is the promise of truth that they had been promised.
2853 If it is recited to them, they say, "We trust with it. It is the truth from our Lord. Indeed, before that we were."
Now, a mumin gets a better reward in the hereafter than a muslim, of course.
82 The mumins are those whom, when God is mentioned, their hearts tremble; when His signs are recited to them, it strengthens their acknowledgement; and they put their trust in their Lord.
83 They uphold the bond, and from Our provisions to them they spend (on others).
84 These are the true mumins; they will have ranks at their Lord, forgiveness, and a generous provision.
"This scripture is, no doubt in it, a beacon for the observant ("al-mutaqeen"
who have faith with the unseen,
uphold the bond,
and from our provisions to them, they give to charity.
And they have faith with what was revealed to you,
and in what was revealed before you,
and with regard to the Hereafter, they are absolutely certain.
These are guided by their Lord; these are the winners." (22-5)So why would you want to uphold/believe in The Quran and become a mumin? There is a greater reward and one is among the observant/righteous (al mutaqeen).
back to Ibrahim, i guess he followed the Quranic message without it, can many do that? I have no idea.
Ibrahim was a prophet, so he recieved a book from God. Of course he was also guided by God.
16120 Abraham was an examplary vanguard, devoted to God, a monotheist, and he was not of those who set up partners.
16121 Because he was thankful for His blessings, He (God) chose him and guided him to a straight path.
16123 Then We inspired to you (the messenger) "You shall follow the creed of Abraham, monotheism, and he was not of those who set up partners."
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Peace Sarah,
Quote from Sarah
So belief in God and doing good is enough, that gets jannah apparently? right? By what logic? Who says that is the case? Was it the Quran?Belief in God, the last day/period (hereafter) and doing reform/setting things right in society (aml slh) is the minimum that you need to attain salvation.
262 ...any one who trusts with God and the Last day, and does reform/sets things right, they will have their reward with their Lord, with no fear over them, nor will they grieve.
I was being sarcastic but sure, no fear or grief.
Ibrahim was a prophet, so he recieved a book from God. Of course he was also guided by God.
16120 Abraham was an examplary vanguard, devoted to God, a monotheist, and he was not of those who set up partners.
16121 Because he was thankful for His blessings, He (God) chose him and guided him to a straight path.
16123 Then We inspired to you (the messenger) "You shall follow the creed of Abraham, monotheism, and he was not of those who set up partners."
Good point.
Yo Jack, read that? he got a book! Guess i ain?t so screwed after all.
Salam
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Salam Sarah,
Salam jack
Though you know you just kind of proved my point, they don?t need to profess in the belief of ?jinn? to believe in jin
And you just made mine 'they don't need to profess belief in the quran to believe in the quran'. Took long enough P
Quranist can claim to follow Quran and represent Quran however at the end of the day it doesn?t matter what you label yourself as you will be accountable for your own actions. None of us are free from error even the best of the best.
Exactly, labels are meaningless, this includes what you say you believe. A label is something on the surface. The quran is much deeper than that.
Well i?m not Ibrahim and in that case I guess i?m screwed.
Nice try. He's an imam for an-nas. So, we should certainly be following in his footsteps (604). He looked at the heavens, and asked questions. That's how he figured out God. He used logic. He didn't read it in a book.
Yo Jack, read that? he got a book! Guess i ain?t so screwed after all.
Baseless assumption. Who said he didn't receive a book? All messengers receive books. He didn't get his views from his book. Unless of course he was using Idiot's Guide to Astronomy as his furqan.
Why believe in Quran if you don?t need it, why follow it? Gotta better guide, do share?
Faulty logic just because someone doesn't use al quran as a guide, doesn't mean a) there a better one b) they are using another guide. You can get to places without a map. You don't NEED a map to get to jannah. For some/many it helps, but others can reach the destination without a map. The quran is a guide, plain and simple. When you believe in the quran, you believe in its guidance, which is again its message. Check out 3434 "We reject the message/R-S-L you are sent with."
So belief in God and going good is enough, that gets jannah apparently? right? By what logic? Who says that is the case? Was it the Quran?
Why should i put effort into doing good as how Quran states if it has no avail? If just believing in God and doing good is good enough? Your implication is studying Quran isn?t worth your time because you can get the same reward simply be believing in God, doing good and contemplating about the universe.
I suggest reading progressive1993's post detailing mumineen vs. muslimeen.
So maybe you don?t need a guide but if you have one you?re better off, are you not? If you believe in it and you don?t follow it, what does it make you? Why not follow Quran? Why uphold Quran if you don?t need it?
First of all, you don't NEED to do anything. See above.
Alhaqq is in a lot of things. The ultimate haqq is Allah (2262 ) and i believe this haqq is shared with us in AlQuran read 2176.
if you don?t believe that Quran is haqq then i don?t know why people bother following it.
Al quran contains al haqq, no one is denying that. Al quran is not al haqq itself, that would make it God itself. God's attributes are not limited to anything. He's 'everywhere'.
If we read the Quran and study it and reject it or don?t follow it, what does it make us?
If you reject its truthfulness (whatever that is), that would make us kafir. But, you don't HAVE to follow it (again 1099). BTW, the God didn't forget to put the quran as a qualifier for jannah in 262.
Or maybe i can argue if God knew we didn?t need the Quran God wouldn?t have sent it.
I await such an argument.
To me belief in Quran is important. Probably i?m biased because of my background though others would say i'm a rebel.. i don?t know where life would have taken me otherwise. back to Ibrahim, i guess he followed the Quranic message without it, can many do that? I have no idea.
Don't forget he is an imam to mankind 2124.
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Jack
And you just made mine 'they don't need to profess belief in the quran to believe in the quran'. Took long enough P
Haha funny, i disagree. All the prophets preached the same concept message yet Quran is more specific than Believe in God and do good. So no, even people who dont profess their belief in Quran it doesnt necessarily mean they follow it just because they adhere to some concepts of it.
Nice try. He's an imam for an-nas. So, we should certainly be following in his footsteps (604). He looked at the heavens, and asked questions. That's how he figured out God. He used logic. He didn't read it in a book.
Im not disregarding Ibrahims footsteps.
Faulty logic just because someone doesn't use al quran as a guide, doesn't mean a) there a better one b) they are using another guide. You can get to places without a map. You don't NEED a map to get to jannah. For some/many it helps, but others can reach the destination without a map. The quran is a guide, plain and simple. When you believe in the quran, you believe in its guidance, which is again its message.
Bad example, when you want to reach a destination and you dont know where it is or where you are, you are bound to follow some sort of direction/guide i.e. road/street signs. Its a guide not the greatest compared to having a gps or a street directory. You follow the message through other signs. You need some guidance you dont have knowledge of the unseen.
I suggest reading progressive1993's post detailing mumineen vs. muslimeen.
Basically youre all saying someone who follows/adheres to Quran is a mumin and this is a better level.
If you reject its truthfulness (whatever that is), that would make us kafir. But, you don't HAVE to follow it (again 1099). BTW, the God didn't forget to put the quran as a qualifier for jannah in 262.
Youre not making any sense. You would be a kafir if you reject its truthfulness. What if you reject following it? Same thing? If you reject it, it makes you a kafir/fasiq hence the importance of following it. 1099 doesnt mention you dont have to follow it. If God willed he could have made us all mumineen and do we hate those who are not mumineen? im not hating anyone but it dont make sense to me to read study Quran and then say i choose not to follow it even though i believe in it. As ive said before inevitably my actions are mine and theyre to my benefit or disadvantage. my ultimate return is to my lord so all that really matters is my actions. 262 doesnt mention jannah.
I await such an argument.
How about we look at why the book was revealed?
4105 We have sent down to thee the Book in truth, that thou mightest judge between men, as guided by Allah. so be not (used) as an advocate by those who betray their trust;
4174 O mankind! verily there hath come to you a convincing proof from your Lord For We have sent unto you a light (that is) manifest.
692 And this is a Book which We have sent down, bringing blessings, and confirming (the revelations) which came before it that thou mayest warn the mother of cities and all around her. Those who believe in the Hereafter believe in this (Book), and they are constant in guarding their prayers.
6155 And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy141 A. L. R. A Book which We have revealed unto thee, in order that thou mightest lead mankind out of the depths of darkness into light - by the leave of their Lord - to the Way of (Him) the Exalted in power, worthy of all praise!-
299 We have sent down to thee Manifest Signs (ayat); and none reject them but those who are perverse.There are other verses though overall conclusion its a guide for us to bring us closer to God. If people dont wanna be closer to God thats their choice/problem.
Salam