more damage is done than good

Bigmo

Here are some of the things we as Muslims as a whole cant agree on.

*Hajj- Location-Time-and if its even nessesary at all
*Salah - Time-Location-how many times a day 2/3/5/6...-and if its even nessesary at all.
*Fasting- Time- and if its even nessesary-how
*Ramadan- Time-Location-is it even nessesary
*Marraige-Define marriage....Temperary (Nikah Mutta okay?)
*Alcohol-Haram-Halal-Moderatly...
*Homosexuality- Haram-Halal
*Pork-Fat is okay- Nothing is okay....
*Anal Sex- Ok (halal) Not okay (Haram)
*Hadiths- Must Follow- Cannot Follow- sometimes...
*Hiijab- Dont neet it At all (Be half naked its cool)-Wear it Totally- just cover your private parts-
etc...etc..etc...
Basically, The Entire Ummah both Traditional and Quran alone...cant really agree on anything Other than..."Allah is God".

I think there will always be a separation, and people will always choose to stick to their interpetations to suit them.

What I think would benefit the entire Muslim Ummah...would be a Giant Public Debate. where we can all meet up and at least Try to get some sort of Consensus and agreement on some of these Issues.

Free-minds to me serves as a Small Public Square for practice and for now.

I noticed Good and Bad in all sects and groups whether traditional or Quran alone...

All I have to say is this...

The End....As we know it is very soon. I feel things are getting very VERY Negitive. All the Governments have shown who they Collectively Serve. and They are trying to establish the Biggest Secular but more (Anti-religious) landscape of Pure Self-Indulgence and Oppression. (the Dajjal's system...if you will).

so while Everyone is Arguing little stupid arguments about if this is this or this is that.... The Elites are working in Full Force to establish your demise and your downfall. (I.e. Fullfilling their Promise of Leading all man astray from Submission to Allah.)

I'd say what is Important now, is to Put aside our "petty" differences, and unite under One Banner.
Those who Collectivly Unite for Submision to Allah, and Establishing a land where we can live accorindly with the least amount of Corruption as humany possible.

Why must the "Muslims" (Believers) Be the Minority and be forced to Dwell in the most evilist of Lands...Instead, why cant it be...The Muslims are the Majority...the Land is "Muslim" and the Minorty are the 'Evil ones" who must dwell there.

From my interpetation, whenever a city was doing really bad things, Allah Gave the "Believers" a chance to Leave and Dwell in a Better land or cleanse the land..But not Remain Stuck there living in dispair.. Noah was relocated, Abraham was relocated(?), Lot was re-located, Musa was relocated, Jesus's followers were given prominence and land, and Adam was given a Land to dwell in, Solomon/David,etc was given a kingdom and land...and the list goes on.

WHere is our land? where do we live?

Surely Our Land is not Mecca right now (pagan) . Its not Jerusalem right now.(satanic zionists) its not Anywhere in the West (Imperialist/Capitalist Zion-satanic)...Surely its not China (Idolitry/Oppression), Surely its NOT in the "Islamic Countries"...

Perhaps If and when People start awakening to the Words of Allah (Quran), Maybe THEN can a Land be turned over.
Maybe THEN might Mecca, Medina, Jerusalem, then Become "Muslim" majority.

then from there maybe Islam will then be the majority in the world...

There is a lot more things Quranist agree on like faith in the hear after the devil and adam and eve and the prophets and murder, lies, miserly, hypocrysy and greed and arrogance and so on.

Most Quranist also agree about heaven and hell and angels. So its not a small list. Quranist differ on minor matters but we make them big.

Wakas

peace,

Here are some of the things we as Muslims as a whole cant agree on.

*Hajj- Location-Time-and if its even nessesary at all
*Salah - Time-Location-how many times a day 2/3/5/6...-and if its even nessesary at all.
*Fasting- Time- and if its even nessesary-how
*Ramadan- Time-Location-is it even nessesary
*Marraige-Define marriage....Temperary (Nikah Mutta okay?)
*Alcohol-Haram-Halal-Moderatly...
*Homosexuality- Haram-Halal
*Pork-Fat is okay- Nothing is okay....
*Anal Sex- Ok (halal) Not okay (Haram)
*Hadiths- Must Follow- Cannot Follow- sometimes...
*Hiijab- Dont neet it At all (Be half naked its cool)-Wear it Totally- just cover your private parts-
etc...etc..etc...
Basically, The Entire Ummah both Traditional and Quran alone...cant really agree on anything Other than..."Allah is God".

There is actually less disagreement on many/most issues, but for a newcomer to the forum, I can appreciate there will be difficulty in determining this.

Thus, whilst your list may appear true to you, to a longer term forum member such as myself, I consider your list to be baseless conjecture.

sarah2505

Topics we agree on are not debated, so they are not on the threads

san

Topics we agree on are not debated, so they are not on the threads

because if they are, they'd be debated again and the "agreement" broken, see ? agreement is kind of a hush hush ...

sarah2505

exactly, top secret, not to be shared with the world P

justice

sorry I couldn't post the second part yesterday due to some reasons God willing I will post all of the article today. You may visit toluoe-islam website for the article.
THE IMPETUS OF SECTARIANISM
The cause of this sectarianism and factionalism was not the phenomenon that they
were mistaken in understanding the reality of Deen, nor was the fact that any item
remained doubtful, obscurant and ambiguous to them. Doubt, suspicion, and
ambiguity have nothing to do with the knowledge, God has revealed.
This sectarianism used to balk for satisfying the lust of power and authority. Those
who had intense desire to emerge as leaders used to create their own individual sects.
And then every sect wanted to surpass and dominate over the others. This used to start
mutual conflicts leading to bickering and wrangling and thus the Ummat used to get
divided into sects and factions. And then this made the Deen become shrouded in the
mist of chaos and distraction.
This brought this reality to our forefront that appearance of sects does not come into
existence on the basis of any knowledge and vision, nor on any arguments and
reasoning. It is based on sentiments. It is a separate phenomenon that the followers of
every sect look to be arguing in favour of their own faction. And which one is the
sentimental decision for the support of which the deceitful intellect remains mired in
the myth of projecting its argumentation?
AIM OF THE REVELATION OF THE QURAN
(7) That was exactly the same state of affairs in the world of religions when the Quran
was revealed. (Be it known that Deen remains the same entity; but when it is
fragmented into sectarianism, it metamorphoses into religion.) The Quran has narrated
the aim of its revelation "It will establish the Deen of Allah by vaporizing all the
differences. And will transform all factional and sectional-ridden men into one single
Ummat." (16 64)
"(O! Rasool) this Book has been sent to you for the express purpose that you
may make clear to them, those things in which they differ". And there after, those
who acknowledge the veracity of this one single Deen, this Book, will guide them to
the right path of life and thus will become the main spring of Rahmat,
the means of nourishment. (16 64)
"It means the exposition of reality would be uniformly equal to all, but the
guidance and the means of nourishment -Rahmat -would exclusively be for
those who have conviction in its truthfulness."
This made this reality crystal clear that the primary object of the Quran is the
establishment of the oneness of Ummat by wiping out all divisions; and the
eradication of division is the ?Rehmat? of Allah. At another place, the Quran has made
this point clear when said11 11
?Had it been willed that the entire humanity be made to follow the same mode by
compulsion, it would have never been difficult for God to do so." Like the way
He has created the other animals that the member of every species leads its life within
the fold of its own species and group and does never cause any dissension with it.
(For example all the sheep lead the life on the same one pattern and all the loins
follow the same mode of conduct.)
ONENESS ON THE BREATH OF VISION
Likewise He would have instinctively compelled the entire mankind to follow the
same conduct of life. But He has not done so. He has showered freedom of thought
and action to the mankind. It means "if they wish, they may live the life of harmony
and unity; and if they desire otherwise, they may create chaos and distraction." But
they were made this fact clear that the life of chaos and distraction is the life of
chastisement and that of leading the life of one single Ummat is the life of Rahmat
and auspicious prosperity. But this oneness can only be obtained and sustained if you
make the Book of Allah the code of your life on the breath of your vision and from
the deepest recesses of your heart and mind. If you do so, you clinch the goal of your
life. That is why the next part of the above mentioned verse is
(11 119)
Except the people, who lead their life at par with the Revelation and thereby make
themselves the true potential users of the results of the Revelation, the others will
continuously go on indulging in division and disharmony though they were created to
be one single Ummat (from within the recesses of their heart and mind).
(11 119)
Thus, this Verse brought to bear upon this reality that

The object of man?s creation is to develop one single Ummat (universal
brotherhood) amongst mankind and that they must not create divisions and
factions amongst themselves;
That the divisions and differences amongst mankind can be eliminated by
following the Divine Revelation alone; and those who do that, theirs shall be
the life of ?Rahmat?;
That those who do not lead their life in accordance with the Divine Revelation
shall not be able to eliminate their divisions and differences and thus theirs
shall be the life of misery and destruction.
NOT TO CREATE SECTARIANISM
( After making these points clear, the Muslims were told
(3 105)
?But be not like those who are divided amongst themselves and fall into
disputations after receiving clear signs." (3 104)
"The people who divide into factions and start disagreeing with one another, for
them is a dreadful penalty?. In the other two verses coming after this verse, the
Quran has made it explicitly clear that "the life of disharmony and of sectarianism
after conviction is the life of kufr and leads to misery and destruction. On the
contrary, the life of harmony, familiarity and integration showers exoneration,
success, triumph, victory, and Allah's Rahmat".
(3 106-107)
It is evident from these verses that the life of division and mutual disharmony is the
life of curse and chastisement. And Allah' Rahmat showers on those who live as one
compact Ummat and avoid disharmony and discord.
By the way, it may also be remembered the Quran tells that the end product of
disunity, discord, and disharmony is the greatest and the gravest chastisement.
The Table of the Conjugations of the Arabic Verbs in which the word has occurred
connotes the implied aspect of "permanence" and "uninterruptedness" in its process. It
means the "chastisement" will neither be for the time being, nor be on emergency
basis; but it will be of permanence and perpetuity in its scope and nature. This
chastisement will continuously chase them till they keep sectarianism bolstering
amongst themselves.
SECTARIANISM IS ANATHEMA (SHIRK)
(9) Going even a step further, the Quran told the Muslims
(30 31)
"Hark! Do not be anathematized (Mushrik) after believing the unity of God
(Tauheed)."
How wonder struck and (ostensibly) incomprehensible was the phenomenon "How
can the Muslims become anathematized (Mushrik) again after believing in one God?
Will they start worshipping the idols?" The Quran says, "No, anathema is not the
worshipping of the idols alone." As we have seen in the incidence of cow-worship in
the Sura Bani Israel that idol-worship is "Shirh-e-Khafi" (i.e., an anathema of a lesser
degree), "Shirk-e-Jali" is something else. While giving its illustration, it was told that
becoming Mushrik (anathematized) means
(30 31-32)
?Be not among those who caused factionalism in their Deen and became
factions." For this factionalism, the Quran told
(30 32) "Every sect remains absorbed in the frenzy that it is the only sect, which
is on the right, and the others are fallacious and fictitious." This is such a
psychology of sectarianism, the phenomenon of which we can observe every time.
Keep especially the words of this verse in mind because these words unveil an
important but significant reality, which will be mentioned in the coming pages.
THE RASOOL (PBUH) HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SECTARIAN-MONGERS
Anyhow, the Quran openly made it clear to the "one unified Ummat" 'if you created
factions in Deen, it would be anathema (Shirk). It would never be a belief in one God
(Tauheed); and no one would become unaccountable simply by verbalizing that it is
the only one that stands on the foothold of original and genuine Islam, while the other
factions are fallacious and fictitious'. It was on the basis of this fact that Rasoolullah
was told
(6 159)
?Those who create difference in Deen and divide themselves into sects (O!
Rasool) you have got nothing to do with them.? It means God has nothing to do
with the sectarian-mongers (because they remain no more the believers in one God;
they become anathematized), nor do the Rasool of Allah has any association with
them. It is because the Rasoolullah established one-single Deen and one-single
Ummat and they transformed it into varying segments and hence became the carriers
of a parallel Deen (the system of life) in real sense; so what relation do they have with
the Rasoolullah?
It is here at this point that an objection is raised 'The Rasoolullah formed an Ummat,
which stood firm on the true Deen. A sect emerged out of it as a separate entity. It is
evident that this new faction is anathema crime commuter and fallacious-monger.
Then adjudicating as a separate sect, how can the remaining Ummat, which stands
firm on its way, be justified as the commuter of the same crime?' This is an important
objection. But its answer or more precisely the solution of this difficulty will come a
bit later.

belH

Peace all
No religious movement is right except the one is described by God in Quran...You do not need to go to far into Quran to find its description...

24 And those who believe in what was sent down to you, and what was sent down before you, and regarding the Hereafter they are certain.
24

Their Guidance come from
Quran + Torah + Injeel

ok now lets compare our selves with this believers if the farmer will come and see the plants scattered and disordered will it be pleasing to him? then maybe we are not pleasing to the god.

You are right, this movement is far from being united...simply, because they refuse to use the Torah and Injeel to clarify the controversial issues--e.g., Hajj, Salat, Fasting. Therefore, they are not the ones that God described to be the right one (the one in 24 and other verses)

lets accept the truth when ever it comes to us and stop rejecting it simply because its from the sunni, shiite or 19 code believers.

No truth except the ones in Quran, Torah and Injeel...and if we disagree on this, then we are not the true believers that God described in Quran. Until we believe in the Torah and Injeel, as we believe in Quran, we will be Sects and never united.

Peace

justice

Peace all
No religious movement is right except the one is described by God in Quran...You do not need to go to far into Quran to find its description...

24 And those who believe in what was sent down to you, and what was sent down before you, and regarding the Hereafter they are certain.
24

Their Guidance come from
Quran + Torah + Injeel

You are right, this movement is far from being united...simply, because they refuse to use the Torah and Injeel to clarify the controversial issues--e.g., Hajj, Salat, Fasting. Therefore, they are not the ones that God described to be the right one (the one in 24 and other verses)

No truth except the ones in Quran, Torah and Injeel...and if we disagree on this, then we are not the true believers that God described in Quran. Until we believe in the Torah and Injeel, as we believe in Quran, we will be Sects and never united.

Peace

I thought I was all alone in the movement of torah, injeel and Quran for universal unity. check for a thread I started regarding that its title is the people of the book and their book.

justice

PART THREE
SALAT THE FOUTAIN SPRING OF TOGETHERNESS
(10) In Surah Ar-rum (30 31), just before the words of there are the following words "Establish Salat and be never amongst the anathematized (Mushrekeem)." It means 'be not amongst those who created sects in Deen'. It is clear that the system of Salat in Deen is the basic reality.
As long as it perpetuates, sects can not be created in Deen. That is why the Quran says; "When their Ummat gets divided into sects after the Anbiya, it wastes the reality of Salat, and follows its own lust." (19 59) Our own position is its living evidence. Our state of affairs is that the Salat, which the
Quran termed as the strong means of the oneness of Ummat, has become the symbol of discrimination and dissention amongst the different sects today. Hence, if you have to see "which sect such and such a person belongs to", then see to it as to how does that person offer his prayer? (That is why when the antagonists launched a campaign of opposition against Tolu-e-Islam that it is a new sect, they had to coin the objection
in support of their assertion that these people offer prayers of three times and that they think one prostration (Sajdah) in one Rak'et is necessary.) It was as if they wanted to prove that their prayer is different from that of other factions', so it is a new sect. But
it was all slander-mongering and false accusing. Neither does Tolu-e-Islam propose any separate prayer, nor does it create any separate faction. (To whom forming of factions is anathema, how can it become a sect in itself?)
MASJID-E-ZARRAR
Anyhow, it was a parenthetical sentence. We were saying that the Quran had adjudged Salat as the main spring of collective integrity (togetherness) for the one united Ummat. It was because of this reason that during the time of the Rasoolullah himself, some faction-mongers constructed a new mosque. The intensity with which the Quran opposed this construction can be gauged from the relevant verses of the Sura Taubah. Pause and reflect for what the Quran says in this matter. (9 107) ?Those who put up the mosque with this intention that loss be incurred to the Millat-e-Islamia and the Deen itself." "and kufr be favoured or the path of kufr be hiked." (9107) " i.e., with the purpose that dissention be created in the Muslims." Do you think of it as a mosque? No, it is not a mosque. (9107) "It is that ambush from which those who were the enemy of Allah and His Rasool (i.e., The Divine
System) shall attack the Millat." It means this is not a mosque; this is the fort where the enemies of Allah and His Rasool will lie in ambush to demolish the structure of Deen. ?They will indeed swear that their intention by constructing this mosque is nothing but good. We do never desire destruction
of the Deen." "Do not be taken in. God stands witness to this stark fact that they are out and out liars." (910 "O Rasool! Never take a single step into this mosque." This mosque, so as to say, is just on the verge of hell. Whoso have constructed it or whosoever entered into it this will let all crumble down into the abyss of hell (9 107-109). Hence history stands witness to this fact that Rasoolullah demolished this mosque through his associates.
Imagine from this incidence how heinous and horrendous the crime of sectarianism in Islam is! Even if the construction of a mosque casts any speck of factionalism, the demolishing of this mosque becomes imperative. Mosque can be demolished but the foundation of sectarianism can never be laid. It is because factionalism, in express terms, is anathema (Shirk), and is anathema of a conspicuous nature.
THE ORGANIZATION OF ONE COMPACT UMMAT (11)
These were the broad guidelines imparted to the Muslims for the organization of one compact Ummat. In the light of these guidelines, the Rasoolullah developed a united Ummat. This organization had a single code of life and a single objective one Deen, a straight path to be followed with no division into sects. It was this class of the people about whom the Quran says (3 102) "Allah joined your hearts in love, and by means of Deen made you
brethren to one another?. (9100) But what happened afterwards? This is a narration, tormenting and a story, stoke firing; so without going into its detail, just reflect over the following words of the Quran (42 14) Like the previous nations, 'which after getting Revelation created factions in Deen on the basis of their passions wrought with mutual obstinacy and rebelliousness', they too were divided into factions. In spite of the Quran's clear, cogent, and outright injunctions, guidelines, warnings and emphatics, the division of Ummat into different faction is definitely an astonishing event. But this reality can not be refuted that the Ummat was divided into sects and that these sects are extant even today. The question arises repeatedly "What justificatory reason to this mode of conduct would those divided into factions eventually put forth?" Yes, they do put, and the justification for it is
Ikhtelaaf-e-Ummatee Rahmah.
(DIFFERENCE AMONGST MY UMMAT IS A RAHMAT)
Now listen attentively to the justificatory reason they gush forth. They say that the Rasoolullah has said " (Dissention in my Ummat is Rahmat)". Did
you think as to what the crux of the matter is? It means the dissension about which the Quran had explicitly said "It is Allah?s chastisement; it is a cause of Kufr and a source of anathema (Shirk)", now about this same dissension it is said that the Messenger of Allah (God forbid) has denoted it as a blessing of Allah, a fountain of His Rahmat. Whosoever has even a bit of know-how of the teaching of the Quran will unhesitatingly say that this sentence of the Arabic language cannot be the quote of the Messenger of Allah. The Messenger (pbuh) would have never told as such. How is it
possible that Allah may call a thing as a chastisement and His Messenger may term it as His blessing, His Rahmat! You may go on arguing like this, but the sectarians would insist to it "No, the Rasoolullah has told as such and had definitely told". It is only because if this sentence is not termed as the Hadith of Rasoolullah, there remains no implicit justification for sectarianism. But the Quran says those who do not accept the reality from the recesses of their heart and mind, the reality get them accept it on compulsion. We have an example before us as a proof to this effect. Sometimes back
an allegation was levied against the Qadianees, that by creating a new sect, they had gushed forth the element of dissension in the Ummat. In response to it, they had said "If any dissension has popped up in Ummat due to any of our actions, the Ummat should have acknowledged our thanks for this purpose -without the least speck of any plaint-mongering. It is because the Messenger (pbuh) has said This new sect of ours is the additional Rahmat, showered on the Ummat".
THIS IS NOT A HADITH
Now just pause and reflect "What can be the reply to their answer they replied to the question?" In response to this answer, the organ ?Al-E?etasaam? of Jami?et Ahle Hadis had to say that ' (?Dissension-is-a-blessing-in-my-Ummat?) is no Hadith at all, so it can not be presented for the justification. But now what is the use of not adjudicating this sentence as the Hadith? Whatever flagrant devastation it had to wreck, it wrought in one thousand years. It hacked the Ummat to pieces. Dividing into outfits and sects, it paved way to the means of persistent, consistent and permanent killing and chilling in the Ummat. It destroyed their kingdoms, wrecked their grandeur and splendour; it devastated their world and the hereafter (future) both. After such large scale perdition and devastation, if this reality is acknowledged that 'this is not the saying of the Rasool' what compensation will it give to those losses?
Such are the spurious Ahadith for which Tolu-e-Islam says These are the result of the conspiracies of the Persian thought hatched against Islam. And the same is its crime for the punishment of which it is being butchered and maligned'. But the strange phenomenon is that in spite of adjudging this Hadith to be spurious, it is continuously and conspicuously being presented for the justification of
sectarianism.
73 SECTS
Anyhow, it was a parenthetical sentence. I was telling that ("Dissension-is-a-blessing-in-my-Ummat?) was presented in justification to the sectarianism. But inherent defect in it is that all the sects are then judged to be Rahmat-inspiring and are hence acknowledged to be on truth. But sectarianism per se
can not brook that every sect be understood to be true, and true in right earnest. Thus in order to cover it up, another Hadith was coined in which it was said that the Rasool (pbuh) had told ?There shall be seventy three sects in my Ummat and out of them only one shall be ?Naji? and all the rest shall be "Jahannumi" (infernal).? Did you ponder over it? How did it make all the outfits satisfied by keeping one as an exception; that it is on the right and all others are on the wrong. The Quran, about the sects, had said (23 53) Every sect is in this wrong presumption that it is on the right. In other words it means the Quran, with the words of (all outfits), had closed all the back doors that pave way to the wrong satisfaction of sectarianism. But this spurious Hadith, with the exception of "one sect", made this back door wide open. Now our history spread over almost 1000 years is a witness to the stark fact that in the garb of this exception, every sect is busy in the "Grand Jehad" of adjudging itself as '"Naji" and others as "Jahannumi". And is
considering the blood drops (shedding out in the bickering, wrangling, and brawling with other sects) as the fountain spring of its own success.The hobby of issuing fatwa of kufr against one another is continuously pouring right from the first day. The roots of the outburst of sectarianism are, daily, a constant source of vexation. Mostly the cause of these riots is the "division" of the mosques. When the mutual bickering and brawling prolong, the police lock the mosques; the case goes to the court of law. And during all this tumult, riot and disturbance, every sect adjudicates itself as "Naji" and the opposite sect as the wooden block of "Jahannum" (Hell). The irony is that both the parties adjudge themselves as the followers of Islam, that Islam which adjudicated sectarianism as anathema (Shirk).
WHAT IS THE REMEDY?
(12) The question is what to do in these circumstances. Sects are present and no one is prepared to get itself dissolved. For the purpose of dissolving the sects, every sect gives this proposal that all the other sects may dissolve themselves into it. And it is evident that no one is prepared for it. The question is "What is the solution of this issue?" This is a question, very important and very critical, hence warrants thorough and dispassionate thinking

The Quran claims that it has come to dissolve all the differences.
2.We have belief in it.
The Quran is present before us in its original form.
Now just think if we still say 'our differences can not vaporize and the outfits can not be dissolved' to what loss does it lead us to suffer? It would mean that (God forbid) the Quran has, now, no potence left to dissolve the dissension. I ask "Can any one amongst you dare to say so?" But if we say 'our sects can not vaporize', then its meanings are nothing except that 'we practically confess that the Quran's claim of dissolving the factions is no more based on truth.' If we have conviction on the truth of the Quran, we would have to empty our mind of the idea that 'sects can not be eradicated in the presence of the Quran.' Bear it in mind that every assertion of the Quran is true and it has the potential to vaporize the dissension. Then the only
question that remains to be answered is "What is the process by which the Quran can dissolve the differences?"

belH

I thought I was all alone in the movement of torah, injeel and Quran for universal unity. check for a thread I started regarding that its title is the people of the book and their book.

Peace,
You are not alone...there are many who follow Their God's commandment that calls for upholding the Quran, Torah and Injeel.
Until they believe in this Clear and Decisive Commandment, this movement is far from being the True Submitters.
May God lead us to His Straight Path.
peace

Jack

If you are seeking a cult, there's always Scientology...

The Quran speaks of MULTIPLE paths (subul, plural of sabeel/path/way)

1419 "And why should we not place our trust in God, while He Has guided us our paths.
3969 As for those who struggle in Our cause, we will guide them in Our paths. For God is with the pious

Furthermore, there are paths(again plural) to peace/salam (516). Salam comes from the same root as Islam btw. While we are at it, let's abrogate 3918, since we are all meant to have the same exact views I see no reason for this verse. &nbsp

Peace all
No religious movement is right except the one is described by God in Quran...You do not need to go to far into Quran to find its description...

24 And those who believe in what was sent down to you, and what was sent down before you, and regarding the Hereafter they are certain.
24

Their Guidance come from
Quran + Torah + Injeel

Don't forget to seek guidance from what was sent down to Abraham, Ismael, Isaac, Jacob, et al... (384).

FYI, this is a public forum, people come here to you know 'discuss'. I understand this might come as a shock to some. If we just wanna agree with each other, we can always talk to yourselves, sanity be damned.

justice

SECT OF AHL-E-QURAN
Some times back, (in Punjab) a group emerged which claimed that it would act upon
the Quran alone and thus would bury the so-created differences and divisions among
the Muslims. It was undoubtedly an innocent and praise-worthy objective. But what
was clinched, as a result of this sect, was totally different from what it claimed in the
beginning. Not to speak of dissolving the previous factions, it added one more sect -
Ahl-e-Quran -to what we already had. Its reason was that it omitted the method and
mechanism the Quran had suggested for eradicating the various sects. Hence its
efforts not only ended in smoke, but also caused a great harm to the mission of the
Quran itself. Now its consequence is that ?whenever it is said that according to the
Quran, our mutual differences and divisions can be wiped out,? it is said with a cold
taunt ?This too has been tried out and has ended in failure?. It means the failure of
the proponents of this idea, generated the concept, that the Quran has no potential
(God forbid) to curb the sects and fractions among the Ummat.
12
MECHANISM TO DISSOLVE THE DIFFERENCES
(13) Now the question is ?What method and mechanism does the Quran evolve to
dissolve these differences?? First of all make this a point that the Quran says
(42 10)
?In whatever matter you have difference, its decision ( ) must be from
Allah.? Here the word is worth considerable. It means it is not a private
enterprise, where, if any difference erupts on any matter between two men, they may
sit to get the decision from the Quran by themselves. Disputed matters are always
decided and ordered by a third person, who is called or Saalis (arbitrator). It
was for this purpose that the Quran told the Rasoolullah (pbuh)"
(4 65)
"Your Rabb is witness to this reality that they can have no (real) belief, unless
they make thee judge (Hukam the one who gives decision) in all disputes
between them and so they not feel heavy-hearted by your decisions but accept
them with the deepest recesses of their heart.?
It means that decision from the Quran shall not be taken individually but this would
require a living and concrete Saalis and Haakim (authority) to give decisions. This
decision-making authority has been interpreted with a comprehensive term of ?Allah
and Rasool? in the Quran. Thus, a few verses before this verse, it is said
(4 59)
?O! you who believe, obey 'Allah and Rasool' and obey those charged with
authority (on behalf of 'Allah and Rasool&#039 amongst you.?
A LIVING AUTHORITY
(4 59)
?If there is dissension on any matter amongst your, (do not try to dissolve it on
your own, but) refer it to 'Allah and Rasool', if you do not do so, it would be
understood that you do not believe in Allah and the Last Day.?
Thus it clearly means that if there is difference on any decision of the sub-ordinate
officers, what to speak of the difference between two individuals, refer it to the
13
central authority of the Quranic System ('Allah and Rasool&#039. This same is the
condition of conviction. If it were not acted upon, it would be kufr.
It has been stated earlier that the Quran has interpreted the division and the dissension
as ?Kufr? (paganism). The practical way for protection against this Kufr was
prescribed that there be the Quran extant with the Ummat and the Rasool as the
decision-maker in the light of the Quran. The Quran, in Sura Al-imran, says
(3 101)
?How could you practice ?Kufr?? When the state of affairs is that

Allah's Book is extant with you
And along with it, His Rasool is present among you.?
It means so far as the Quran and the Rasool (pbuh) are extant in the Ummat, factions
can not be created.
This brought another issue to us all these verses of the Quran indicated that during
the presence (life) of the Rasool (pbuh), the Ummat had to remain scared of the
outfits, but after he passed away, there was no way of being scared of the factions. It
was because the presence of both 'the Quran and the Rasool (pbuh)' was necessary for
warding off the factionalism. And when one of its parts, (the Rasool) did remain no
more present, there remained no possibility of protection from sectarianism.
THE MEANING OF
The Quran says you did not understand the matter correctly. You are of the opinion
that the presence of the Rasool means, so far as Muhammadur Rasoolullah is present
among you, this will remain operative. When he dies, the "Rasool" will remain no
more present. This idea is wrong. This operational mode is not conditioned with the
physical life of the Rasool. It will continue after him. That is why it was specified in
Surah Al-imran in these words
(3 144)
?Muhammad is no more than a Rasool of Allah; previously many were the
Rasools who passed away (after shouldering their responsibility of disseminating
the message). So if he (by tomorrow) dies or is killed, will you then (by thinking
that this system was extended only to his life) turn back to your previous way of
life?
(3 144)
"Whosoever (on the death of the Rasool) turn back to the previous way of life,
not the least harm will he do to Allah (will render loss to himself alone)."
14
This made the matter absolutely clear. In other words it means that does
not mean the physical life of Rasoolullah. Even after his death, this arrangement could
continuously be in force.
AFTER THE LIFETIME OF THE RASOOLULLAH (PBUH)
When the Rasoolullah died, there was lamentation and dismay all around in the
Ummat. During the tumultuous surges of passions, an idea hued in the mind of some
people that the system the Rasoolullah established has now come to an end.
was a condition for this system. For removing this
misunderstanding, Hazrat Abu Bakar Siddique came up to the pulpit and made the
people understand the Quranic exposition of in such a way that
there could be no better effective way of exposition than this. He said
"O people! Those who had opted the subordination of Muhammad (pbuh) ought to
know that their M?ebood is dead. But those who had maintained the subservience to
God, their M'ebood is alive and will remain ever alive." After this, he recited the
above said verse (3 144) i.e., This made the reality pristine clear.
The audience understood as to how this system would remain established after the
death of Rasoolullah. Thus immediately afterwards they stood up and elected
Khaleefa tur Rasool (i.e., the successor to the Rasoolullah (pbuh)) and so filled up the
vacuum caused by his death of the Rasoolullah. Thus it is evident that some one's
succession is the symbol of his presence. In this way "Quran and Rasool"
continuously remained in force.
THE STATUS OF KHALEEFA TUR RASOOL
However, it must be made clear that the responsibility of shouldering the duty to
establish Islamic System lied on the entire Ummat. It is because the Quran had made
it abundantly clear that (i) the entire Ummat is the inheritor of the Book of Allah, it is
not any single individual that inherits it. In Surah Faatir, the Quran says
(35 31)
?Allah is the one who, to you (O Rasool) revealed this Book, which is the one that
makes the realities in front of you come true."
(35 31-32)
"After that He has selected amongst His men (this Ummat) for the inheritance of
this Book." It means the first is that the entire Ummat is the heir to the Quran. Now
proceed further.
15
(ii) The responsibility of the Rasoolullah was
(7 157)
He ordered for the recognized (just) and forbade for the unrecognized (evil). Now this
same responsibility was shifted to the Ummat. That is why in Surah Al-imran, the
Quran says
(3 109)
"You are the best Ummat, created for the welfare of the humanity. Your
responsibility is to command for the recognized (just) and forbade for the
unrecognized (evil)."
REPRESENTATIVE OF UMMAT
Thus these facts make it clear that the entire Ummat is the successor of the
Rasoolullah and for the convenience of its practical arrangement, the Ummat by
making one of the best of its individuals as its representative, can continue this
arrangement. In this way, "Quran and Rasool" continuously remain operative in the
Ummat. In their presence, the possibility of the genesis of the dissension and the
growth of the various sects and factions in the Ummat do not cause any effect. The
history stands witness to the fact that during the period of Khilafat, the caliphate,
neither did any disunity spring up, nor did any faction come into existence. It is
because there is not a single instance found during this period in which the individuals
of the Ummat might have sprung up on their own for the decision of their disputed
matters. The central authority was referred for the disputed matters and all had to
obey its judgement. This same authority is called ?KHILAFAT ALA MINHAJE
NABUWWAT?.

belH

If you are seeking a cult, there's always Scientology...

The Quran speaks of MULTIPLE paths (subul, plural of sabeel/path/way)

1419 "And why should we not place our trust in God, while He Has guided us our paths.

3969 As for those who struggle in Our cause, we will guide them in Our paths. For God is with the pious

Furthermore, there are paths(again plural) to peace/salam (516). Salam comes from the same root as Islam btw.

While we are at it, let's abrogate 3918, since we are all meant to have the same exact views I see no reason for this verse. )

Don't forget to seek guidance from what was sent down to Abraham, Ismael, Isaac, Jacob, et al... (384).

Peace all,
The Quran is sent to those who have knowledge of Torah and Injeel...Unless you know the Torah and Injeel, you will be Lost in many issues such as Hajj, Salat. For example, without the Torah and Injeel you will be making Hajj to Macca instead of Jerusalem. Here how God answer this issue

And if they had upheld the Torah and the Gospel, and what was sent down to them from their Lord, they would have been rewarded from above them and from beneath their feet. From among them is a pious nation, but most of them only do evil.
566

Say O people of the Book, you are not upon anything until you uphold the Torah and the Gospel and what was sent down to you from your Lord. And for many of them, what was sent down to you from your Lord will only increase them in transgression and rejection. So do not feel sorry for the rejectors 568

belH

While we are at it, let's abrogate 3918, since we are all meant to have the same exact views I see no reason for this verse.

3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
3918

The best of it= what is confirmed by God's words that are in Torah, Injeel and Quran...The Best of it Does NOT Equal to our perception of what is the Best...otherwise, we will never be united.

Peace

justice

Peace all,
The Quran is sent to those who have knowledge of Torah and Injeel...Unless you know the Torah and Injeel, you will be Lost in many issues such as Hajj, Salat. For example, without the Torah and Injeel you will be making Hajj to Macca instead of Jerusalem. Here how God answer this issue

And if they had upheld the Torah and the Gospel, and what was sent down to them from their Lord, they would have been rewarded from above them and from beneath their feet. From among them is a pious nation, but most of them only do evil.
566

Say O people of the Book, you are not upon anything until you uphold the Torah and the Gospel and what was sent down to you from your Lord. And for many of them, what was sent down to you from your Lord will only increase them in transgression and rejection. So do not feel sorry for the rejectors 568

The problem now is how do we solve some contradictions (as we thought) regarding the three books. Here are some of the contradictions

The Quran in chapter 260 we read the story of Moses striking a rock to provide water for the thirsty Israelites with a separate event. The Bible explains that Moses went with the people of Israel to Elim where there were twelve springs of water (see Exodus 1527); however, the rock Moses struck with his rod was in Horeb and from this rock exploded one spring and not twelve (see Exodus 171-6) (see also Numbers 208-11)
2)The Quran 2247-251 blends the stories of Saul and Gideon. The Quran says that the Prophet Samuel made Saul (whom the Quran names "Talut" due to his height) the king of Israel and in his days David killed Jalut (Goliath) in a fight (see 1 Samuel 15;17). The Quran then combines Saul with the Biblical account of Gideon's army in which the army was tested by drinking from the river when they were preparing to fight the Midianites (see Judges 71-. Therefore, the Quran mistakenly presents Talut (Saul) as Gideon and the war with the Philistines as the war with the Midianites even though the events occurred many years apart.
The crucifixion of Jesus
4)It is known that God punished the Egyptians using Moses by striking them with ten plagues blood, frogs, lice, flies, the death of livestock, boils, hail, locusts, darkness, and the death of their first born sons. Flood was not one of the plagues. (see Exodus 7-11) and Quran 7133
the golden calf worshiped by the Israelite was made by a samaritan as per quran but the bible recorded Haroun.

belH

The problem now is how do we solve some contradictions (as we thought) regarding the three books. Here are some of the contradictions

The Quran in chapter 260 we read the story of Moses striking a rock to provide water for the thirsty Israelites with a separate event. The Bible explains that Moses went with the people of Israel to Elim where there were twelve springs of water (see Exodus 1527); however, the rock Moses struck with his rod was in Horeb and from this rock exploded one spring and not twelve (see Exodus 171-6) (see also Numbers 208-11)
2)The Quran 2247-251 blends the stories of Saul and Gideon. The Quran says that the Prophet Samuel made Saul (whom the Quran names "Talut" due to his height) the king of Israel and in his days David killed Jalut (Goliath) in a fight (see 1 Samuel 15;17). The Quran then combines Saul with the Biblical account of Gideon's army in which the army was tested by drinking from the river when they were preparing to fight the Midianites (see Judges 71-. Therefore, the Quran mistakenly presents Talut (Saul) as Gideon and the war with the Philistines as the war with the Midianites even though the events occurred many years apart.
The crucifixion of Jesus
4)It is known that God punished the Egyptians using Moses by striking them with ten plagues blood, frogs, lice, flies, the death of livestock, boils, hail, locusts, darkness, and the death of their first born sons. Flood was not one of the plagues. (see Exodus 7-11) and Quran 7133
the golden calf worshiped by the Israelite was made by a samaritan as per quran but the bible recorded Haroun.

Peace,
When reading the Torah and Injeel, I always use the Quran as a Guidance...The reason I'm doing this is because the fact that translating the Original Language to different ones will alter the original Message. However, being an Arabic speaker, I read the Quran in its Original Language--Arabic.

As far as the Crucifixion of Jesus, I do not need even to read it, simply because it was written after Jesus was risen to God (hence, it is not part of the Injeel that was revealed to Jesus, which we should uphold).

If you use the Quran as your final Guidance, you will be able to identify the Man Made words from Gods.
peace

Imaani1

I dont agree that more damage than good is done than good in allowing people their own interpretations. Its in trying to create a docterine that you have to subscribe to (or your do not belong to the subscribing group) that you create serious divide.

Setting in stone a certain interpretation of anything doesnt allow you to interprate for yourself or evidence for yourself the message of the Quran and that is what is at the heart of it. I decided to join this group because I know that no matter how many disagree or agree with how/what I interprate in a verse or chapter I will not be labelled as a disbeliever as is happens with sects that have a take it or leave it interpretation of Quran that must be followed by all with sometimes devastating consequences such as war death persecution and seperation between those who are supposed to be following the best of instruction and heading in the direction of a straight path.

peace.

Farabi

We are better learn from the christiant mistake, sunnis is somewhat look alike the catolic and we are the protestant.Even when the protestant escaped to the USA and now become the most high tech country in the world it does not mean mean we must have a real war with those tradisionist.
Late or soon the tradisionist will end up like the catolics, worshiping statue, stone or cemetary. Some of this website members was right, we should not disctinct our selves and claimed as a non muslim, we are muslims.

We have to work together make the tradisionist read the quran on their own language. And we have to carry this job.

Bigmo

Topics we agree on are not debated, so they are not on the threads

EXACTLY!

Bigmo

Peace,
When reading the Torah and Injeel, I always use the Quran as a Guidance...The reason I'm doing this is because the fact that translating the Original Language to different ones will alter the original Message. However, being an Arabic speaker, I read the Quran in its Original Language--Arabic.

As far as the Crucifixion of Jesus, I do not need even to read it, simply because it was written after Jesus was risen to God (hence, it is not part of the Injeel that was revealed to Jesus, which we should uphold).

If you use the Quran as your final Guidance, you will be able to identify the Man Made words from Gods.
peace

I am not sure there was an Injeel that came to Jesus. There is no evidence of that whatsoever. Jesus we are told used to preach from the cradle and in childhood. So knowledge was always with him. The same is not true with Muhammad. Jesus was given signs and so was Moses. The same is not true of Muhammad. So we must not always assume that a Quran like scripture came down to any other prophet. WE make that assumptions always and therefore we assume something Quran like got lost from the days of Moses. Remember after Moses was David and Solomon and many other prophets. Yet nothing of that sort exists and there is no evidence that they existed. We know from the OT that there were for authors or maybe five. There were communications that occured between God and the prophets but there is no evidence that a Quran like scripture that came down to any other prophet like Muhammad. But then again Muhammad had no miracles to show his people so the Quran was the sign given to him. WE know the Psalms is the poetry of David. Even if David was not the one who authored it entirely, there is no way to see that the Psalms was Quran like since its David's peotry. These scriptures like the OT and NT were always like that. They are a combination of hadiths and hadith qudsis. We know that God communicatd with Moses and asked Moses some questions like his rod. This is not the style of language of the Quran. The Quran tells and does not ask and wait for response. Its unique in that sense and Jesus was unique in the sense that he did not need an encounter later in his life with God. He was born into it. Moses meanwhile had some for of direct communication with God.

This needs a lot more research but we should not assume that a Quran like scriptures came down revealing itself in stages and occassions as the Quran. The name Quran itself shows a continual flow of literature that is to be recited. The Quran was Muhammad's sign. The pagans aksed for some signs and the Quran says the Quran itself is the sign and its enough as a divine sign.

We need to be more subltle when we hear words like "brought down" or "revealed" and "gave to" in the Quran as we jump into conclusions thats these were Quran like scriptures.

What we do know is by the time the Quran came down, these scriptures are exactly the same way as today. So the Quran knows these scriptures and never claimed to speak for any other scriptures when refering to them. WE also know that not everything that God communicated with the Israelites is in these scriptures as we know not everything God commincated with Jesus is in the NT. But we also know not everything God communicated with Muhamamd is in the Quran.

But the Quran sees these scriptures in equal footing. We need to have a dialogue with historians and Christian historians regarding this. But we must not assume things. This is one of the traps of being a Quranist is we often assume things without actually researching.