SBH -sabih/tasbih praising?
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Peace Jack,
The SBH as being ?part? of salat was my ?assumption?. I am very much aware that they are different.
Note in the verse 1744
(1744)
? 1744 (Asad) The seven heavens extol His limitless glory, and the earth, and all that they contain; and there is not a single thing but extols His limitless glory and praise but you fail to grasp the manner of their glorifying Him! Verily, He is forbearing, much-forgiving!
Do you think this means
- People do SBH but aren?t aware of it
- Everything does SBH except people fail to do it properly
- Or something else?
20132 has no links to SBH?
I noticed hyperboles though it almost seems that you?re saying we don?t really need to do this? Because we do it without choice?
The thing is we are told to do it see 20130, 5039-40 and 3017. They don?t appear to be hyperboles.
SBH?s purpose is to "tardah"
?so that thou might attain to happiness.? Asad?s translation refer to 20130
(20130)
Note misquoted 7226 in previous post#7 sorry I meant
7626 wasabihou laylan taweelan/ long in the nightSalam
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Peace ev'ryone,
hyperboles or continuity?
Examples where phrases such as night and day/ morning and evening are used as hyperboles 2274, 715, 7625, 1962, 4046, 489, etc...
2274, for example, why can't we now (and even people 1400 yrs ago) spend what we have by night and day? I don't see the word "every" between "spend" and "night", instead only bi ("by"/"with"--and i don't think it is a hyperbole at all. People 1400 yrs ago could just go out and feed a neighbor. Today, we can just do the same or do it cross-country online via PayPal. I don't have any problem seeing the rest of those verses as expressing "continuity" either. Also with SBH, "to swim, roll onwards, perform a daily course, float..." etc it seems perfectly harmonious with "continuity".
SBH?s purpose is to "tardah"
riDa, raDiya, riDwan ... (Ra-Dad-Ya/Waw) Since you've pointed that one out, it may be best to explore the root.
A quick search shown me that where "fasabbih/wasabbih" is mentioned, also mentioned is "bi-", either continued with "-hamdi rabbika" or "-ismi rabbika" (in the same verse or preceding or succeeding). So maybe we should explore the words "hamd" and "ism" as well (in regard to our Rabb). And with "ism", especially Al
aZiym and Al'alaa. Otherwise it may also be related to d.ikr (341). note "wa" may also be used to show specificity instead of distinction (2238 is a classic example).There are also independent occurrences of "sabbih", however (2120), yet it gives us a clue of those who "sabbih night and day" they're not "proud/arrogant" to 'ibadah to God and they're not "tired/weary" (2119), and they're not "yafturna"?
And 1911 is very interesting. Zakariah had been made not able to speak for three nights, yet came out to his people and was still able to reveal to/inspire/inform them to "sabbih" morning and evening? (this is assuming that 1910-11 is connected by the "fa" beginning 1911) And from 341 we know that he could still 'speak' with "ramzan" (gesture/signal?).
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Peace san,
I think Jack might be right in some instances of hyperboles but not in all occurrences
A quick search shown me that where "fasabbih/wasabbih" is mentioned, also mentioned is "bi-", either continued with "-hamdi rabbika" or "-ismi rabbika" (in the same verse or preceding or succeeding). So maybe we should explore the words "hamd" and "ism" as well (in regard to our Rabb). And with "ism", especially Al
aZiym and Al'alaa. Otherwise it may also be related to d.ikr (341). note "wa" may also be used to show specificity instead of distinction (2238 is a classic example).Uha it could be a dhikr..
Look at 2436
(Asad) IN THE HOUSES which God has allowed to be raised so that His name be remembered (DKR) in them, there extol His limitless glory (SBH) at morn and evening ?
There are also independent occurrences of "sabbih", however (2120), yet it gives us a clue of those who "sabbih night and day" they're not"proud/arrogant" to 'ibadah to God and they're not "tired/weary" (2119), and they're not "yafturna"?
And 1911 is very interesting. Zakariah had been made not able to speak for three nights, yet came out to his people and was still able to reveal to/inspire/inform them to "sabbih" morning and evening? (this is assuming that 1910-11 is connected by the "fa" beginning 1911) And from 341 we know that he could still 'speak' with "ramzan" (gesture/signal?).
How can we glorify/sabh God by gesture?
Hmm not sure what means in 1911
Chamber? Sounds odd.Interesting thought
Peace
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peace,
Thing is, it?s not salat it?s SBH, it?s different from Salat. So they don?t contradict. The only reason why I link it with salat is that ?some? of the timings cross the same time of salat (scrolls down). Not that salat is sbh or sbh is salat.
Yes, they dont contradict if one arbitrarily chooses which SBH is which, i.e. this one can be part of salat, this one is not, the difference is XYZ etc. I have not seen anyone put forth such an argument, probably because it would be illogical and ultimately subjective.
I recommend trying to reconcile the timings though, as there is nothing more powerful than seeing the truth for oneself. When I realised it couldn't be done, the only answer was it is an idiom/expression meaning all the time.
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Salams all
Herbman
Can you elaborate/clarify what you mean in terms of times? Because I seem to think it indicates 4, you seem to indicate two and a nafil. So, 3? Also there doesn?t seem to be an indication of nafl?Accomplish the salat at the extremity of the day and parts near of the night, so it is the extremity + the part near of the night before sun rise and after sun set.
In 20130 you also have before sun set, the sun set prayer start when "duluk shams" which means just before sunset.
That is why I see 3 timings in 20130, also for the during the night I coralate it with surat 73, where Nafila is mentionned please see
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599299.0Regards
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Peace,
Well then it was illogical for me to force a link though do you think they're idioms in all cases?
even in 5039-40 maybe in 3017 what about 20130?
Does Mustansir Mir explain the idioms?
Herbman
I?m not seeing it as 3 but it?s not about salat anyway.
I?m not sure where you got nafila and salat with surat 73, if anything the only verses I can find that support your claim would be 1778-1779.
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Peace all,
I will give a short outline of my view about these words. We can discuss it later on with more details.
Sabbaha (verb) To evolve, to move/to act....
Hamd (noun) Solicitation, incitement...
Thus, statements like "sabbaha bi-hamdi allahi..." would translate as "to evolve according to the solicitation of the god.."
"al-hamdou li-allahi..." would translate as "the solicitation is due to the god...", meaning that all we want to ask for should be directed to/asked from the god, not anyone else.
From my own studies, these meanings are valid for most occurences, if not all. Also, if you see any contradictions, please point it out so I can correct my understanding.
--
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Peace
@someone interesting on Hamd. By solicitation/incitement, do you mean in the sense of du`a? Even so, i think "praise/thank" is still an integral part of Hamd. It just feels right to say AlHamdulillah when you realize you've received something from your Lord, isn't it? I'll look into it again insha Allah.
on sabbaHa, let's try it...
"fasabbiHhu"? (5040) And of the night then evolve/move/act Him...? That doesn't make sense, don't you think so?
CMIIW but when said "fasabbiH biHamdi/bi'ismi rabbika", it's actually "fasabbiH ... rabbika" -- i.e., the object for the verb sabbiH is (always) "rabbika". "biHamdi/bi'ismi" only explains the verb not the object.
@Jack/Sarah i still can't really accept the "hyperbole" part -- or do you mean with hyperbole, something else than "exaggeration for intended effect"? Regardless of what we may/may not be capable of doing, the implied continuity (or in Wakas' words "all the time" doesn't seem like hyperbole to me but more like suggestion (at least in case of sabbih and infaq/yunfiqun).
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Someone
I?ve never heard of hamd being explained as you have ?solicitation, incitement? where did you come to that understanding?
(159
? 1598 (Asad) but extol thou thy Sustainer's limitless glory and praiseHim, and be of those who prostrate themselves in adoration
move/act/evolve to the incentive of God and be of the sajideen?
Maybe could work if hamd is really solicitation/incitement. Not sure if it?ll work on all occurrences though
San
take 489 for example
(489)
To me it seems to be an expression they do SBH from morning to evening, don?t you think that?s an exaggeration or do you take it literal? Or maybe you understand it differently.
Actually I think I noticed something.. I need to check to be sure, maybe the indication of times are an expression (maybe not, need to check with other occurrences) but for example in other occurrences we?re told to do it 2558 though no indication of time. So the verses with the expressions/exaggerations would maybe indicate doing it more is better but I'm not sure, just a theory
Salam
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ok no illa there but I still think it's an expression, do you think it's literal?
you know even traditionalists take it as an expression.. well I think they do think about eid takbeer
Allahu akbar
allahu akbar
la illaha illa lah
allahu akbar
wa lahul hamd
allahu akbar kabeera
walhamdulillah katheera
wa subhanallahi
bukratan wa asela
la ilaha ila lah
etc etcI guess they're not important.. though still doesn't answer exactly what SBH is or what we are to do..
Salam
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salam,
ok no illa there but I still think it's an expression, do you think it's literal?
Of course it is an expression, but is it an exaggeration? We can see the pattern, from your own list
1911 Bukatan ? waashiyan/ morning and night
3342 Bukratan ? waasila/ morning and evening
4055 Bilaashiyya ? waalibkar/ night and morning
5039 Qabl tuloa alshamasi ? waqqble ghuroobi / Before the sun rises and before it sets
5040 wa min alayli/ and at night
5248 hena takoom/ when you rise up (any time? Though I assume morning because of the following verse)
5249 wamin alayli/ and at night
7626 wasabihou laylan taweelan/ long in the night
2436 bilghaduwi - waalasali/ morning and evening
489 bukratan ? waasila/ morning and evening
3017 Heena tamsoona wa heena tusbihoona ? (tamsoona? not sure what it is) And when you rise up"hina tamsuna" = when you-reach-evening
"hina tuSbiHuna" = when you-reach-morning
http//quran.uk.net/Documentation/VerbKaana.aspxalso
20130 wasabbih bihamdi rabbika qabla tulooAAi ashshamsi waqabla ghuroobiha wamin ana-i allayli fasabbih waatrafa annahari laAAallaka tardaIf it were "all day and all night", then yes it'd be impossible for us to take it literally, assuming "sabbiH" requires our consciousness of God.
Look at the list again. Continuity/all-time when awake and conscious is still possible, but definitely not more than that (sleep, rest etc). As far as "layl" is concerned, it's delimited with "min" (denoting "part of" and in 7626, it's suggested to sabbiH "long" in the night--still that doesn't necessarily mean the whole night. And what about in the day, is it actually continuous/all-day long?
Call it subjective but let's try this short list
early in the morning (bukratan/ibkar, Guduw, SubH/tusSbiHun, qabl tulu Alshams, ...)
afternoon-evening (ASila/ASali, qabl Gurub, `ishaa'/Ashiyyan, tamsuna, ...)
part of the night (min Allayl, laylan Tawilan, ...)"hina taqum", "Atrafan-nahari" ... would easily fit in the above
What about 2119-20? It tells us something different--suggesting "day and night" continuously "without tiring", but wait--who are they? Are they humans? (2119) "man `indahu". nope maybe not earthlings...
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Peace san
@someone interesting on Hamd. By solicitation/incitement, do you mean in the sense of du`a? Even so, i think "praise/thank" is still an integral part of Hamd. It just feels right to say AlHamdulillah when you realize you've received something from your Lord, isn't it? I'll look into it again insha Allah.
I don't think it is like du'a, in the sense that we are never required to perfom hamd, like "ihmadou allah..." is never used, while "oud'ou allaha..." is used in alquran.
on sabbaHa, let's try it...
"fasabbiHhu"? (5040) And of the night then evolve/move/act Him...? That doesn't make sense, don't you think so?
CMIIW but when said "fasabbiH biHamdi/bi'ismi rabbika", it's actually "fasabbiH ... rabbika" -- i.e., the object for the verb sabbiH is (always) "rabbika". "biHamdi/bi'ismi" only explains the verb not the object.
My understanding is not yet well established, I am open to any other alternative that fits better.
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Does Mustansir Mir explain the idioms?
I forgot to say, Mustansir Mir does not include this idiom, to my knowledge. However, he specifically states at the start of the book he has not included all idioms of AQ. Only those well attested to or more well known.
