4:15, 2:125, 3:96 Beit fixed!
-
peace,
From http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
= Ba-Ya-Ta =
by/in/at night (excluding sleep), entered upon or passed the night
tent, house, home
Thinking about something and its end result
Concealed or conceived something in the mind
A structure of clay or any structure signifying a habitation, an abode or dwelling.
Buildings, uninhabited houses, shops, ruins, bazaars, places where the entering is allowed by the owners.
Ark of Noah, Mosques, places of worship, Kaabeh or Jerusalem
A grave
Household or family
Nobility
Sudden attack in the night or a surprise attack in the night
Remaining through the night (e.g. bread or water that stays out and becomes stale) -
Peace,
In tribal (vernacular arabic of the desert) where I was born, Beyt means Room, so I could ask if I am invited to a house (Daar) in which Beyt (room) am I going to sleep.
How many beyts (rooms)does this daar (house) have?
It is said that the sahraoui arabic was the closest to the vernacular arabic used in the Quran (owing to the double migrations of arab muslims fleeing from spaniards and before when they went to expand towards spain and some joining afterwards fleeing persecution from Umayads then Abassids...Thanks theNabster for sharing the info, it got me looking and found similar result here
http//www.up.ac.za/dspace/bitstream/2263/4366/1/determinants%20of%20house%20form%20and%20layout.pdf
The daywan is bayt alrojal (men?s house), and the rest of the house is bayt alniswan. (Bayt is house, rojal men, niswan women). When the word bayt is mentioned it can be understood as the women?s domains within the house. This is probably due to the fact that this is the center of their world whereas the public spaces are the domain of men. Thus, the daywan, even though it is within the house, has a more public than private function.
Houses are built by men, yet inhabited mainly by women as they spend the most time in them and carry out most activities within the confines of their own house or the houses of relatives, neighbors, friends. That is including social rituals. Women maintain the daily rhythm of life. Men?s areas of habitation extend beyond the boundaries of the house to include the mosque, the streets and the public spaces. Various social groups may use the same place but at different times (Donley-Reid 115), thus the daywan for example can be used by the women during the times that the men are away or during occasions when the men may use the street or a neighboring house.
Let me ask you if this would make sense in the tribal/vernacular Arabic you're used to
As you said, the "bayt" is inside the "daar". There are two possible ways to see the bayt as part of the daar
1 "bayt" as "room", i.e., a space, a locus, with defined physical boundaries (floor, walls, roof etc)
2 "bayt" as "place", i.e., when the space/locus has been/is being inhabited by its inhabitor(s) (person/people experiencing the place), sensed, felt, lived and ultimately ingrained in the memory of the inhabitors as a place (esp. of their own).consequently i'd like to ask you if the second meaning makes sense in your conversations, esp. in the context of visiting someone's daar/house.
Could it be that you are asking
'In which bayt am I going to sleep?'
'In which place am I going to sleep?''How many buyut does this daar have?'
'How many places does this house have?'Thanks for your feedback
-
Peace
Beyt is a dwelling unit where one can reside (in relative protection), it has physical boundaries, this is how I see it.
Interesting example in the animal kingdom
Some octopus make a beyt out of coconut shells
http//i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/12/15/article-1235801-079A5927000005DC-485_634x512.jpg
Link http//www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1235801/Intelligent-octopuses-recycle-coconut-shells-discarded-humans-portable-shelters.html
-
Peace
Beyt is a dwelling unit where one can reside (in relative protection), it has physical boundaries, this is how I see it.
Interesting example in the animal kingdom
Some octopus make a beyt out of coconut shells
Thanks. that's in line with the view that bayt is the place where one lives/resides.
For example, If there were no "octopus" (dweller/inhabitor) in the "coconut shell", then the coconut shell is just that, an empty "shell" and not a "bayt". The moment the octopus dwell in the shell, it becomes "bayt Al-octopus". In other words, "bayt" is attached to the "inhabitor". "Daar" on the other hand, is independent of its inhabitor.
It fits for most of the "bayt/buyut" and "daar/diyaar" (Daar AlSalaam, Daar AlAkhirat comes to mind) concordance in AQ. The difficult part being "bayt AlHaram".
That's it for now...
-
Thanks. that's in line with the view that bayt is the place where one lives/resides.
For example, If there were no "octopus" (dweller/inhabitor) in the "coconut shell", then the coconut shell is just that, an empty "shell" and not a "bayt". The moment the octopus dwell in the shell, it becomes "bayt Al-octopus". In other words, "bayt" is attached to the "inhabitor". "Daar" on the other hand, is independent of its inhabitor.
It fits for most of the "bayt/buyut" and "daar/diyaar" (Daar AlSalaam, Daar AlAkhirat comes to mind) concordance in AQ. The difficult part being "bayt AlHaram".
That's it for now...
Salam,
what do you then with 2429
It is no fault on your part to enter houses not used for living in, which serve some (other) use for you and Allah has knowledge of what ye reveal and what ye conceal.
peace
-
-
Peace Mazhar,
Actually this octopus did better than that, it built its dwelling out of fragments of coconut shells, which shows levels of rudimentary intelligence and skills!
Languages can become complicated when they evolve past the nominalising basics, and you can get overloading of meanings for words.
That being said, for a native speaker, some words feel right and others do not in a grammatical construct, say a sentence.
For me it does not feel right to call a house a beyt, a beyt is the smallest unit one can use as a base to dwell in, however, and this is the ambiguity, it can be as big as need be, but without external boundaries it is not a beyt, if it is divided internally it is not a beyt either, but rather a collection of beyts or buyuts (which then become a home or a house I guess).
Indeed a house, or a home, or a beyt can be empty, but they do presuppose ownership (e.g. if I see the web of a spider, I know a spider made it, even if the spider is not there, and so it is its owner).
Now will a cave be a beyt? that's debatable... but potentially it is if it can be made as a base to live/rest/sleep/operate from...
I think as always context needs to be taken into account anyway, if one wants to prove that there are overlapping meanings for a word, or even a meaning overload... -
Salam,
what do you then with 2429
Peace, thank you for that,
What i said previously ...an empty "shell" and not a "bayt"... seems to have given a wrong impression. Well that was a shell, what can i say, i don't normally use coconut shell to rest in (i'd definitely consider it when i get shrunken down to octopus' scale and see one empty ;D). The analogue for us would be of a scale more fitting for human (thanks theNabster for the "cave" example). @Mazhar i don't really get your tone so i'll take that literally -- right, the octopus must have seen it as a potential "bayt" while no other beings could see just how comfortable it is...
Other examples shoebox (mice!), the little hole on the back of my old speaker (an insect), the Magic Bus (Christopher McCandless) etc
In my view, 2427-29, suggest ethics re entering "bayt/buyut". In verse 27, we are suggested to ask the inhabitant/owner of the "bayt/buyut" (ahliha) for permission and to wait for greeting/answer before entering. Verse 28, i believe, explained the case when the bayt is physically empty (of visible living beings -- especially humans and dangerous animals i think). And when 2429 defined "buyuutan Gayru maskuunatin", it gives me the impression where the (potential) "bayt/buyut" is not/no longer used for resting (~sakana) by anyone, but still comfortable/enjoyable (mataa`un) to be in (the shell/cave examples above apply here). Strong relationship between "bayt/buyut" and the inhabitants can be seen more clearly in 2461.
With the issues of identity/ownership/inhabitants (actor, personality), resting/inhabiting (activity) glimpsed above, i think it's quite easy for us to see "bayt/buyut" as "place/places". Or maybe it's just me. Is/was anyone else into architecture/spatial design? I could use some more opinions...
@theNabster, taking bayt as "house" does not really fit for me either. "Home" is more acceptable. "Place" however, may be even more fitting (i'm still not sure). A room is of obviously can be seen as a place. Though certain boundaries need to be defined, a place needs not be rigidly-walled or totally enclosed. For example, "the grandpa's corner in our family's home garden" is one of his favorite places. Then it would be natural for a guest, after knowing that it is someone's place, to ask permission to have a rest there. An issue of privacy.
evidence for possible plurality of one's b-y-t, we can see from 2461
buytikum
buyti b'ikum
buyti ummahtikum
buyti ikh'wnikum
buyti akhawtikum
buyti ammikum
buyti ammtikum
buyti akhwlikum
buyti khltikum
aw m malaktum maftiahuPeace
-
Peace san,
With your last quote, unbeknown maybe, I think you answered your own queryaw m malaktum maftiahu
A place for it to be a beyt needs to have some kind of protection or safety, boundaries of some sorts that can afford privacy too,
this is why Allah refers to mafatihahu which are the keys for entrance to an enclosed (therefore secure) space.I think in some arabic slang the word beyt has been expanded to mean daar too interchangeably, but since I do not interact
too much with my arabic brethren at the moment (long story - I am now British), apart form family, I cannot double check, but there is a word specifically for room that I know in use in the ME, and that is 'urfat, but that is for humans exclusively -
Peace theNabster,
Peace san,
With your last quote, unbeknown maybe, I think you answered your own queryaw m malaktum maftiahu
A place for it to be a beyt needs to have some kind of protection or safety, boundaries of some sorts that can afford privacy too,
this is why Allah refers to mafatihahu which are the keys for entrance to an enclosed (therefore secure) space.Beknown for sure, and i was waiting for this response.
"Keys" are made a possibility, as you said, a possible measure of protection/safety/privacy. Now, must a bayt be locked up?
Don't forget 2427-29. We're suggested to ask for "permission", not "keys". Isn't this correct Having the "keys" presupposes having "permission" given by the "Ahl Albuyut" (owner of "buyut"--yourself or other people who gave you their keys)?
Now don't ask me if the keys were stolen (i don't think they'd pass as "malaktum" though)...
btw i deleted this in my above "grandpa's spot in the garden example" fenced but not roofed. Trellised, maybe, but not necessarily totally enclosed. Even a room can have a window, can't it?
Peace
-
Ah, but thx for your inputs!
apparently there is logic in the lingo of AQ p
... min buytikum
aw buyti b'ikum
aw buyti ummahtikum
aw buyti ikh'wnikum
aw buyti akhawtikum
aw buyti ammikum
aw buyti ammtikum
aw buyti akhwlikum
aw buyti khltikum
aw m malaktum maftiahu
...
aw
orAnd the point is... not everyone has such a complete family (that'd be nice tho)
Considering "by/in/at night (excluding sleep), entered upon or passed the night", my garden example above is faulty unless it's inhabited as such.
Considering "places where the entering is allowed by the owners", some homeless ppl seem to have made public gardens their "buyut".
Don't get me wrong, your idea of "bayt" as "shell" is by far the strongest opinion on this thread, at least as far as "human" is concerned. Anyone familiar with the term Ekistics will recognize "shells" as one of its five elements (the other four "nature", "men/anthropos", "society", "networks".
However on the other hand and nevertheless ... at this moment i failed to see any concrete relationship between "bayt AlAnkabut" (spider's bayt) and "mafatiHa" (keys). Or that between "bayt Al`ankabut" and "roof" or "walls" or the "door" where the "keyhole" is supposed to be. Unless i'm missing something very obvious here. Clues, anyone?
Or maybe we've just found why "bayt Al`ankabut" is called the "weakest bayt". Still a bayt, but weak. Simple, eh? ta-daa...! Congratulations! handshake No?
peace
Interesting sidetrack maftiu'l-ghaybi (659) (keys to the Unseen, or access to the Unseen?, or invisible keys to the Unseen?)
-
Most important feats people get in "Albayt" ?
falyabud rabba hdh'l-bayti
so let them serve the Lord of this "Albayt"
alladh aamahum min jin wamanahum min khawfin
The One Who feeds them from hunger, and secures them from fear.
ed change that to Most important feats living beings get in "Albayt"
(52 -- Aammiina Albayta AlHaram yabtaGuuna faDlan min rabbihim wariDwaanan). Cattles and other animals included, i think. -
Peace Bro san
With spider's web, i guess its key is the special "glue" that traps intruders who ventures in it, and the boundary is the web of the silk itself...
Context my dear Watson - meanings get deflected by context (which can be real or aphorical)...
-
With spider's web, i guess its key is the special "glue" that traps intruders who ventures in it, and the boundary is the web of the silk itself...
Context my dear Watson - meanings get deflected by context (which can be real or aphorical)...
Peace broNabster,
now you got that--"boundary" need not be
... an enclosed (therefore secure) space.
now that we're into weak "bayt" and strong "bayt", the requirements for the latter don't necessarily neglect the "bayt"-ness of the former. And btw, on the "glue" as "key" ... nah, it's not that protective against "intruders" larger/more massive than the spider herself ("key" and "trap"--__aphorical eh? ) plus no privacy whatsoever. octopus inside coconut shell seems to enjoy better protection and privacy.
"boundary" is more than just surfaces. Height, for example, may prevent unwanted access and thus can be considered a boundary to some. Context considered, Sherlock, it's a wide wide world...
just a chitchat peace
-
Peace san,
chitchat peace aside...
we have word original meaning, and contextualized meaning...
we can also contextualize the meaning of a word to the point of losing its original meaning, whereas using another more appropriate word
will be better suited...
still context in a given narrative is vital to the interpretation of a word, and in the case of AQ we also have self reference (qyias ) too, but an informed judgment has to be made as to which is more important in cases of apparent "ambiguity"...
but as a native speaker of a vernacular type of arabic that was isolated from urban arabic (so less likely to be polluted), beyt is used day to day to refer to room in a house... as I told you it might have been extended in the Middle East to mean House as well..., but my arabic origin predates theirs, because I still find it odd to refer to house as beyt...
