Was Moses in Egypt?????
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peace herbman, all
more than interesting, will revolutionize the reading of the bible, and archaeologists can start to use better clues to dig for biblical evidence. now first question, where is the likely place for the crossing of the sea in this case?As if you digested the original story. laugh
Musa is an Assyrian name? and he had a SUMERIAN with him?
Interesting stuff.
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peace herbman, all
more than interesting, will revolutionize the reading of the bible, and archaeologists can start to use better clues to dig for biblical evidence. now first question, where is the likely place for the crossing of the sea in this case?The Euphrates river?
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Peace herbman,
thank you very much herbman for this piece of research,
this is what i call constructive sharing
it is worth writing a thesis on at the very least!
carry on please...Peace Nabster, all,
First, Thanks for your support!
Secondly, to find out our way we need to take the scripture without any predesigned ideas then everything becomes clear in the light of the Great Reading.
Let's start
peace herbman, all
more than interesting, will revolutionize the reading of the bible, and archaeologists can start to use better clues to dig for biblical evidence. now first question, where is the likely place for the crossing of the sea in this case?Nowhere in AL Quran God swt talks about a sea that opens path and floods Fir3awn and his army!!!
Let's have a look to the versesFirst
God inspired Moses to take a certain path.
2077We sent an inspiration to Moses "Travel by night with my servants, and show them a path in the dry sea, without fear of being overtaken (by Pharaoh) and without (any other) fear.
Second
Fir3awn and his people get submerged2078
Then Pharaoh pursued them with his forces, but the waters completely overwhelmed them and covered them up.
in PRL
Ya-Miim-Miim = sea, river, flood. To aim at getting, to intend, go towards, to have recourse to, to resort to, to head for, to be thrown in the river, purpose a thing, clean with dust or pure earth.third
Ya-Mim-Mim is used in verse 2039 and indicates that God is talking about a river2039
`Throw (the child) into the chest and throw (the chest) into the river the river will cast him up on the bank and he will be taken up by one who is an enemy to Me and an enemy to him' but I cast (the garment of) love over thee from Me and (this) in order that thou mayest be reared under Mine eye.
Four
So we know Fir3awn and his army were flooded by a river. Which river?
As Rami said Euphrates.
Why?
First we know Euphrates river shifted at least twice from its channel. One at the time Persian Kings were ruling!http//books.google.it/books?id=BPdLxEyHci0C&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=Euphrates+has+shifted+its+channel&source=bl&ots=sSUP8Oicx8&sig=P015tFphJ1FT3d2jNnttQVMyoYI&hl=en&ei=ns7QSsKWG9aMsAbQ18CsCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBoQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Euphrates%20has%20shifted%20its%20channel&f=false
other scientific fact
http//cipa.icomos.org/fileadmin/papers/Athens2007/FP093.pdfwiki
"The site at Babylon consists of a number of mounds covering an oblong area roughly 2 kilometers by 1 kilometer, oriented north to south totalling around 850 hectares. The site is bounded by the Euphrates River on the west, and by the remains of the ancient city walls otherwise. Originally, the Euphrates roughly bisected the city, as is common in the region, but the river has since shifted its course so that much of the remains on the former western part of the city are now inundated. Some portions of the city wall to the west of the river also remain. Several of the sites mounds are more prominent."http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon
And as Al Quran is detailed we know even how it comes
7133
So We sent (plagues) on them; wholesale Death Locusts, Lice, Frogs, and Blood signs openly Self-explained; but they were steeped in arrogance, a people given to sin.
Tay-Waw-Fa = act of going/walking, going/walking around or otherwise, to go or wander about, circuited/compassed, journeyed, came to him, come upon, visitation, visit, approach, drew near, to go round or round about often, encompass,
"the men/people/locusts filled the land like the TWF/flood/deluge", overpowering/overwhelming rain/water that covers,
a servant that serves one with gentleness and carefulness,
a detached/distinct part/portion, a piece or bit, a party/division/sect,
a sort of raisins of which the bunches are composed of closely-compacted berries, a garment in which one goes round or circuits, a place of going round or round about.Conclusion
1- Fir3awn and his army were flooded by a river
2- Moses escaped using a path through a dry sea inspired by God
3- Fir3awn and his army were flooded because before that event it was heavily rainingSalam
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Peace Nabster, all,
First, Thanks for your support!
Secondly, to find out our way we need to take the scripture without any predesigned ideas then everything becomes clear in the light of the Great Reading.
Let's start
Nowhere in AL Quran God swt talks about a sea that opens path and floods Fir3awn and his army!!!
Let's have a look to the versesFirst
God inspired Moses to take a certain path.
2077We sent an inspiration to Moses "Travel by night with my servants, and show them a path in the dry sea, without fear of being overtaken (by Pharaoh) and without (any other) fear.
Second
Fir3awn and his people get submerged2078
Then Pharaoh pursued them with his forces, but the waters completely overwhelmed them and covered them up.
in PRL
Ya-Miim-Miim = sea, river, flood. To aim at getting, to intend, go towards, to have recourse to, to resort to, to head for, to be thrown in the river, purpose a thing, clean with dust or pure earth.third
Ya-Mim-Mim is used in verse 2039 and indicates that God is talking about a river2039
`Throw (the child) into the chest and throw (the chest) into the river the river will cast him up on the bank and he will be taken up by one who is an enemy to Me and an enemy to him' but I cast (the garment of) love over thee from Me and (this) in order that thou mayest be reared under Mine eye.
Four
So we know Fir3awn and his army were flooded by a river. Which river?
As Rami said Euphrates.
Why?
First we know Euphrates river shifted at least twice from its channel. One at the time Persian Kings were ruling!http//books.google.it/books?id=BPdLxEyHci0C&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=Euphrates+has+shifted+its+channel&source=bl&ots=sSUP8Oicx8&sig=P015tFphJ1FT3d2jNnttQVMyoYI&hl=en&ei=ns7QSsKWG9aMsAbQ18CsCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBoQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Euphrates%20has%20shifted%20its%20channel&f=false
other scientific fact
http//cipa.icomos.org/fileadmin/papers/Athens2007/FP093.pdfwiki
"The site at Babylon consists of a number of mounds covering an oblong area roughly 2 kilometers by 1 kilometer, oriented north to south totalling around 850 hectares. The site is bounded by the Euphrates River on the west, and by the remains of the ancient city walls otherwise. Originally, the Euphrates roughly bisected the city, as is common in the region, but the river has since shifted its course so that much of the remains on the former western part of the city are now inundated. Some portions of the city wall to the west of the river also remain. Several of the sites mounds are more prominent."http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon
And as Al Quran is detailed we know even how it comes
7133
So We sent (plagues) on them; wholesale Death Locusts, Lice, Frogs, and Blood signs openly Self-explained; but they were steeped in arrogance, a people given to sin.
Tay-Waw-Fa = act of going/walking, going/walking around or otherwise, to go or wander about, circuited/compassed, journeyed, came to him, come upon, visitation, visit, approach, drew near, to go round or round about often, encompass,
"the men/people/locusts filled the land like the TWF/flood/deluge", overpowering/overwhelming rain/water that covers,
a servant that serves one with gentleness and carefulness,
a detached/distinct part/portion, a piece or bit, a party/division/sect,
a sort of raisins of which the bunches are composed of closely-compacted berries, a garment in which one goes round or circuits, a place of going round or round about.Conclusion
1- Fir3awn and his army were flooded by a river
2- Moses escaped using a path through a dry sea inspired by God
3- Fir3awn and his army were flooded because before that event it was heavily rainingSalam
any thought?
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Salam,
I see no reason to indicate that Phraroh was other than the ones we know historically ruled out of Egypt.
If you look at the map of the kingdom of Egypt at its peak (http//www.bible-history.com/maps/maps/map_egyptian_empire_1450_bc.html) you can see that it covers not only the Nile, but also the Blue and White Nile (now in Sudan) as well as the Euphrates (Iraq/Syria) and smaller rivers such as those that flow today in Jordan, Lebanon (Litani).
That God does not mention the pyramids in relation to Pharoah might very well be for the reason that the Egyptians never built them, but, as is now being specultaed, they simply moved to reside in the land and adopted the pyramids as their signature/symbol.
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Hi all,
here is an argument from brother Pazuzu against Egypt taken from another thread
There are 3 pieces of what I consider to be damning evidence of the fallacy of the theory of ?Israelites in Egypt?.
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The word "misr" in the Quran does NOT mean Egypt. It is not even a proper noun. The word means "a walled fortified farming town", and pharaoh is simply the title of its ruler. Interstingly, Egypt came to be called "Misr" by the Arabs, for the first time, in much later ages. During the time of Moses, the Egyptians called their land "Kimi", while the Greek historians called it "ha-ka-ptah" (meaning land of Ptah). He points out that Egypt (Nile country) never had any fortified towns at all. All its towns were open and built on the banks of the nile.
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There is ZERO mention of pyramids in the OT. (An oversight, perhaps?? Not likely!!)
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This is straight from the Quran, which the Muslims have desecrated by making it a book to be read over the dead, or recited like parrots
Are you all aware of the dream that Joseph had??
Let?s read the verses together
{?Joseph, O man of truth, explain to us the matter regarding seven fat cows being eaten by seven thin ones, and seven green pods and others which are dry? Then perhaps I may go back to the people so they will know.? * He (Joseph) said ?You will plant regularly for seven years, and whatever you harvest you must leave it in its pods, except for the little that you will eat.? * ?Then there will come seven after that which are severe (with drought) and which will consume all that you plant except for what you have stored.? * ?Then after that will come a year in which the people will have abundant rain and which they will be able to produce once again.?}?..
Note from these verses that Joseph lived in a land where they depended on rain for agriculture. The proof is clear from the fact that he interpreted the king?s dream as meaning that there would be 7 ?severe years?, which will exhaust most of their crops (this is why he advised them to start storing food). The ?severity? here can only mean drought. The proof is in the verse which comes directly after, where Joseph says ?A year will come with abundant rain, and you will produce once again?.
Egypt does NOT depend on rain for agriculture. This is geographical fact. It depends on the Nile river, with its extensive stream network as the source of water. This is why in the beginning of the story of Joseph, we find him in a well. Countries whose climates depend on rain for agriculture often build wells to store water. Abundant rain would be catastrophic for Egypt, because it would probably cause the flooding of the Nile (This is why the hieroglyphs tell us they used to sacrifice virgins to their gods in order to appease the Nile).
Joseph was in a country where the agriculture took place in enclosed plains, along mountain slopes!!! This is called in Arabic He was not in Egypt.
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Peace,
Amarna letters/tablets (1350s ? 1330s BCE)
http//www.specialtyinterests.net/eae.htmlInteresting reading their stories (send archers! lol)
The king of Egypt (sar Misrii)
Rib Addi to a chief
EA#95 vd(53) mentions Aman and Baalat of Gubla; mentions houses, Amri, Adi-, king of Mt, Ami; says `Let g (sar) of Eypt (Miisri) sen hs deputy to me'Rib-Addi to the king, No. 53
EA#137 gc(103) uses 4 line greeting; states,I have repeatedly written fo; but it has not been given ...';... And I have sent (my) mes to the palace; but he with empty hands ...'; ...Since no silver has been given, so they insult me, like the regents, my brothers, and they despise me.'; ...I went to Hamuniri, and my brother, who is younger than I, incited Gubla so that the city was given to the sons of Abdi-Asirta. ... he ... committed a crime and drove me from the city. Let the king not hold back in respect to the deed of this dog.'; continues, `I cannot come to the lands of Egypt (i-ri-ba a-na m?t?ti mi-is-ri-e). -
Peace,
261
And remember ye said "O Moses! we cannot endure one kind of food (always); so beseech thy Lord for us to produce for us of what the earth groweth-its pot-herbs and cucumbers its garlic lentils and onions." He said "will ye exchange the better for the worse? Go ye down to any town and ye shall find what ye want!" They were covered with humiliation and misery; they drew on themselves the wrath of Allah. This because they went on rejecting the signs of Allah and slaying His messengers without just cause. This because They rebelled and went on transgressing.
Waith qultum ya moosa lan nasbira AAala taAAamin wahidin faodAAu lana rabbaka yukhrij lana mimma tunbitu alardu min baqliha waqiththaiha wafoomiha waAAadasiha wabasaliha qala atastabdiloona allathee huwa adna biallathee huwa khayrun ihbitoo misran fainna lakum ma saaltum waduribat AAalayhimu alththillatu waalmaskanatu wabaoo bighadabin mina Allahi thalika biannahum kanoo yakfuroona biayati Allahi wayaqtuloona alnnabiyyeena bighayri alhaqqi thalika bima AAasaw wakanoo yaAAtadoona
PRL = Miim-Sad-Ra (e.g. misra, maseeru) = he made it (namely a town) a limit/boundary between two things, partition, barrier, limit, great town, Egypt.
misr n. 261, 1087, 1221, 1299, 4351
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Peace,
PRL = Miim-Sad-Ra (e.g. misra, maseeru) = he made it (namely a town) a limit/boundary between two things, partition, barrier, limit, great town, Egypt.
misr n. 261, 1087, 1221, 1299, 4351
Qaryatin -- community/tribe
Al-Madnati -- the city/town http//www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=21125
Those 3,300+ year old tablets confirm Egypt was known by that name in the ancient world according to other empires (Hittites, Canaanites, Assyrians, etc) and themselves as they still are called by that name to this day.
As per the verse in question, for best meaning context (259-261) and cross-reference not dictionaries written between 13th and 19th century CE which also have a definition of Egypt. In addition, look at the complaint and reply; to paraphrase -- if you want cucumbers go back to Egypt!
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Peace,
Qaryatin -- community/tribe
Al-Madnati -- the city/town http//www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=21125
Those 3,300+ year old tablets confirm Egypt was known by that name in the ancient world according to other empires (Hittites, Canaanites, Assyrians, etc) and themselves as they still are called by that name to this day.
As per the verse in question, for best meaning context (259-261) and cross-reference not dictionaries written between 13th and 19th century CE which also have a definition of Egypt. In addition, look at the complaint and reply; to paraphrase -- if you want cucumbers go back to Egypt!
Peace,
I do not reject this fact
"Those 3,300+ year old tablets confirm Egypt was known by that name in the ancient world according to other empires (Hittites, Canaanites, Assyrians, etc) and themselves as they still are called by that name to this day."
Tablets are mobile stuff (normal there were letters), they can be found in Egypt but they can be from anywhere else.
Why are they written in Akkadian and not in anciant egyptian? Because there were send from Assyria, Palestine, Babylonia etc...
Taking that into account how do you know "sar Misrii" is pointing to the "King of Egypt" and not to any other "little king" in the region! Is it because there were found in Egypt?But the question remaining is
Is MISR exclusively used for Egypt and no other place?
Regards
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I have a Question....
Doest The Quran say that Pharoah's Main Archetect (Mentions him by name) Built a temple for him?
From Wikipedia
Haman (Islam)
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In the Qur'an, Haman was the chief minister of Pharaoh at the time of Moses. The name Haman appears six times in the Qur'an.According to the Qur'an, both Haman and Pharaoh had armies responsible for killing sons of the Israelites. God sent Moses to invite Pharaoh and Haman to worship him, and to seek protection of the Israelites Haman and Pharaoh were tormenting. Referring to Moses as a sorcerer and a liar, Pharaoh and Haman rejected Moses' call to worship the true God and refused to set the children of Israel free. Like Pharaoh, Haman eventually drowned.
Interaction with Moses
God desires to overthrow Haman and Pharaoh by the oppressed Israelites, and to make them heirs to their power and wealth. There is an irony in the fact that the infant Moses is picked up from the river by the household of the Pharaoh. Pharaoh wanted to kill the infant but changed his mind at the plea of his wife. Haman is singled out as a member of this household.As a young man, Moses kills an Egyptian, and subsequently flees to Midian. He later comes back as a messenger of God to Pharaoh and Haman saying "Send with us the children of Israel, and do not torment them" (Qur'an 2047). Pharaoh inquires Moses about the identity and characteristics of his God after which commands Haman to kindle a fire to bake clay for bricks (Qur'an 283 in order to build a lofty tower he can climb to be able to see the God of Moses (Qur'an 2838; 4036-7).
Moses is not only sent to Pharaoh and Haman, but also to Korah (Arabic Qarun) (Qur'an 4024). According to Anthony Hearle Johns, "there is a vivid scene presenting the response of the three of them to Moses' message, 'A sorcerer! A liar! ... Kill the sons of those who believe along with him, and let their women live" (q 4024-5), and Pharaoh turns to Korah and Hmn, saying, 'Let me kill Moses, let him cry out to his lord' (q 402. In q 2939 Haman, Korah and Pharaoh are named along with the peoples of Midian (q 2936), d (q.v.) and Thamd (q.v.; q 293, as among those who rejected the prophets sent to them and were punished Korah was swallowed up by the earth (q 2881) and Hmn drowned with Pharaoh (q 2940)."
Identity
Scholars disagree over the identity of Haman and the meaning of his name According to G. Vajda, for an unexplained reason, the Qur'an confuses Haman with the minister of King Ahasuerus of the Persian empire whose story is mentioned in the Biblical book of Esther According to Anthony Hearle Johns however"There is, however, no reason, other than the paradigmatic one of hostility to the Israelites, to make any direct connection between him and the eponymous minister of Ahasuerus referred to in Esther (31-6) who persuaded his ruler to issue an edict to exterminate the Jews of the Persian Empire because Mordechai refused to pay him homage. One suggestion is that Hmn is an Arabized echo of the Egyptian H-Amen, the title of a high priest second only in rank to Pharaoh (Asad, Message, 590, n. 6). The name, however, may have become a time-honored designation for any court official hostile to the Jews and belief in the one God. His role is marginally elaborated in the "stories of the prophets" literature (qisas al-anbiya, see Kis, Tales, 213, 226-7, 229)."
"Fir'uan (Pharaoh) said "O chiefs! I know not that you have an Allah other then me. So kindle for me (a fire), 'O' Haman, to bake (bricks out of) clay, and set up for me a Srhan (a lofty tower or a palace) in order that I may (climb) look at (or look for) the Allah of Moses; and verily, I think that he (Moses) is one of the liars."
(Sura 28. Al-Qasas Section 4 Ayat 3
And Fir'uan said; "O Ham'an! Build me a tower that I may arrive at ways > the ways of the heavens and I may look upon the Allah of Moses But verily I think him to be a liar."
http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/haman43.jpg
Here Is a Good Website to check out, Read, Refute, or Varify...There are also some videos on youtube about the Issue.
http//www.classicalislam.com/pages/articles/pyramids.htmI was watching a video that was explaining how one of the Egytian kings Pharoah's Left egypt to concure new land, and as a way to cover it up he created the story of Moses Since Many people in the future would ask questions about such a giant group of egyptians leaving egypt...So they created the sotry of moses as a cover story and then created judaism to rule from new countries...
However I dont subscribe to this belief...I feel there is Little to No Basis and it is from the Zeitigist Movies, which seems to have many errors and fallacies... But Whether it was a REAL King from Egypt or it was Moses (an EX-Prince of Egypt) what does it matter?
Both Were Suposidily, Egyptian Royals who went on an Exodus and Suposidily Left the Oppressive Egypt with a bunch of People...and wanted to create a new place of Dwelling...So whether it was REALLY Moses or the Roayal Egyptian...or BOTH...what difference does it make?
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Peace all,
No it makes no difference at all.
I personnaly think that in the Reading God is intentionnaly vague on geographical location and these stories are but (real) examples for humanity, these stories can be translocated anywhere on earth where any king/governor could oppress people for their origin/religion e.g. Hitler and nazism in Germany, Appartheid in South Africa, Arabs in Palestine etc...
Peace
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As-salam,
Yes Brother, I agree.
I think They are Multiple meanings in the Quran.
Yes, I think there really was a Specific Pharoah mentioned in the Quran and a Specific Muhammad and Musa...
But I also believe that at the SAME time, Pharoah can also be Modern Pharoah.Just Like there really was a place called Babylon (original)...But also today there are many Cities/Systems that resemble and Embody the Attributes of Babylon thus making them "Modern Day Babylon".
Personnaly, I Do believe in Emulation of the Prophets...But not to the extant of the Sunnis and Shia..
For example, I believe there really was a Moses (pbuh), But I also feel that at certain times in my life and in your life.....we are Moses.
(not LITERALLY) but Symbolicly. We share some of the similar trails that Moses went through and share the similair exodus.
Emulation meaning, Every Prophet has a different story of how they came to Islam and their trials... We as Believers Sometimes share or try to share their traits and charactoristics. Sometimes we even share their Similar struggles.Sometimes we are Muhammad. (agin not LITERALLY THEE Muhammad) but symbolically represent Muhammad by enduring some of the trials he went through and his quest for freedom, and submission to Allah.
(That type of emulation)Every Generation has its Pharoah and its Babylon. Its the Prinicap that matters. D
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Peace,
I do not reject this fact
"Those 3,300+ year old tablets confirm Egypt was known by that name in the ancient world according to other empires (Hittites, Canaanites, Assyrians, etc) and themselves as they still are called by that name to this day."
Tablets are mobile stuff (normal there were letters), they can be found in Egypt but they can be from anywhere else.
Why are they written in Akkadian and not in anciant egyptian? Because there were send from Assyria, Palestine, Babylonia etc...
Taking that into account how do you know "sar Misrii" is pointing to the "King of Egypt" and not to any other "little king" in the region! Is it because there were found in Egypt?But the question remaining is
Is MISR exclusively used for Egypt and no other place?
Regards
Yes, that's to whom the letters were being addressed (interesting character)...
Rebel Pharaoh Sneak Peek
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0KlSDNmPgEAkenaten The religious Revolution
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbBbrhQ4WQA&feature=relatedNice song...
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSWyAK5NjW0 -
Its amazing that there have been many discoveries in Eygpt, but no where has there been anything writen on the so called isrealie slaves that did all the work there. I think the only mention of Isreal by name was a tablet which mentioned isreal conquered, which I saw on a documentary. Can it be that Egyptians did not want to document a dark past?
peace
