There is No God.
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So basicaly, for you, Allah = 'who is not God'.
Salaam ,
lets say your correct for one moment , how does your translation fit (with what i've quoted you saying) fit with ayat 171 surah 4 i.e where it says according to your translated would be
Allah(translated no god according to you) hu illah ,, what do you translate hu illah to?
please bear with me i'm trying to grasp your definition to the translation in this part of the quran, as this is my main basic of this debate as far
and lastly where do you get your arabic translations from outta curiosity?
Salaam -
sorry someone i'm quoting from you as i'm agreeing with you as to you his definition i.e Abdun Nur (Allah (Not God) the last post i made is directed to Abdun Nur,i'm asking him the translation... having browser problems or this site has bugs for me to sometimes re-edit
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Abdun Nur,
First question for you from my poor mind Who created us and the world and the sun and the moon........ ?
Second question If there is not a Creator (Allah=Who is not God) then who it's ?
Third question In the Qur'an in each sentence where Allah speaks to Muhammad, is it as if Muhammad himself speaks to him ? And for example, in some verse Angels speak to a prophet, then who is speaking to these prophets since Angels do not exist materially ?
Fourth question The Qur'an describes Angels with 2, 3, 4 wings it's a physicall or material description, what about it ?
Thanks
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... my view was based on evidence based science, the structure of reality is as Ibn Arabi had described in the middle of the 13th century, ...
... what I have discovered through physics, is the reality of the Qur'an ...What you are calling science is not real science, it's called speculation. Subatomic theoretical physics is not science. It's playing around with mathematical formulas. Science is only that which can be observed and measured in the natural world through repeatable experimentation. You need to read S.H. Nasr and his analysis of "modern science" which has lost connection with the Sacred, pretty much ever since Descartes.
I think you are basically trying to remove the personality or personhood from the divine order. You are thinking that to worship any god, even the one true God, is to lower the Transcendent One to the level of a personified entity. You are thinking that any object of worship (the definition of a "god" must be a personification. You wish to include no personal entities of a higher order in your ontology. I understand. I've been there, rejecting every relational deity except the Supreme Principle.
This is what Theravada Buddhism also seeks to do. However valid it may be in another system, this mode of understanding is incompatible with the Qur'an, which is fundamentally based on a personal relationship with your Lord. When you read it, the speech of Allah is not abstract at all; it's very personal. And so to deny Allah as the Person speaking, you must continue distorting the meaning of the Text to fit your model.
I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me.
In other words, He is saying Only that I might be their god.
Peace.
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Salaam Abdulla-M,
what are you talking about, personal speech, you talk to your God all you want, don't let me disturb you.
Why are you writing this post, it has no point but to present your confusion, I'll waste a few minutes addressing it, but I am tired of wasting my time now.
If you look up the Arabic words, you'll discover they do not mean what you think they mean, Salat doesn't mean Prayer, I'bada doesn't mean worship.
When I said evidence based, within the thread, to clarify.
evidence - That which makes evident or manifest; that which
furnishes, or tends to furnish, proof; any mode of proof;
the ground of belief or judgement; as, the evidence of our
senses; evidence of the truth or falsehood of a statement.
My view of the science is nothing at all to do with your description, as you would have realised if you had ever read it, you speculate not I.
My expressed science is only that which can be observed and measured in the natural world through repeatable experimentation, you should investigate what I have explained, as evidently you do not understand, before condemning with conjecture and ignorance.
You wish to worship, I have no interest in changing your mind, knock yourself out, you should if you want to dissuade the other sky God worshipers from ever doubting their conviction of blind thoughtless faith in religious opinion, to answer these questions.
To what benefit or purpose would your God in the sky need your puja, your thoughtless worship, you repetitive ritual, why would even a sky God need your blind reverence and adoration, or is it just supplication to protect yourself from the anger of the sky God.
Why, if it is to supplicate a sky God, to prevent vengeful punishment, would a sky God need to punish for a lack of worship and adoration.
Has your sky God got emotional issues, it requires endless worship?
Explain why your sky God has created you, to what end, what is your ultimate purpose, what is your purpose after you die, more worship, adoration and blind observance of endless ritual?
I'bada does not mean worship. Sadly it is your Christianised version of Islam that is incompatible with the Qur'an, unfortunately you do not want to understand me, but simply present your religious confusion, and spread confusion.
I know you will answer none of the above questions, but attack me for stating them. As I wrote in my last post on another thread, the religious do not wish to understand, or form firm belief based on reason and evidence, they want pointless religion, of which I have no interest, so it seems pointless to explain something to a person who is deaf, blind and oblivious. Most don't want to understand, or to consider what I believe, if they do they can ask me on my website, it seems pointless posting further here. I explain something here, it is ignored and the thread continues in the same pointless pursuit of thoughtless religion observance, my observations are twisted and contorted.
You have made conclusions on my opinion of things, that is not my opinion, you should convert to Christianity with the views you have expressed, they have taken the personification of a sky God to the extreme, they worship and adore, they pray and revere.
Religion is a crime against humanity, the religious are the perpetrators.
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Peace, Abdun Nur. I think you are a Humanist. And I think you should convert to Buddhism.
That is not an attack. It is a suggestion. I will answer your questions without attacking you for stating them. I will answer you in the most rational and factual way. in-sha'allah
what are you talking about, personal speech, you talk to your God all you want, don't let me disturb you.
What I said was that the Qur'an is the personal speech of God/Allah to humankind. Abraham talked to his God, Moses talked to his God, and I have been commanded by my Lord to follow their example.
Appeal to your Lord beseeching and in private; ... Appeal to Him out of fear and expectation.
Through the Qur'an, Allah is talking back to us, answering questions, giving guidance and good news.
If you look up the Arabic words, you'll discover they do not mean what you think they mean, Salat doesn't mean Prayer, I'bada doesn't mean worship.
Where does one look up words? In a dictionary. So you place a dictionary above the Revelation itself? There is a science within the Qur'an whereby words are cross-defined within the text itself. You should seek to understand the language of the Qur'an by studying the Qur'an instead of studying dictionaries made by men.
My expressed science is only that which can be observed and measured in the natural world through repeatable experimentation, you should investigate what I have explained, as evidently you do not understand, before condemning with conjecture and ignorance.
I would love to see your experiment which proves that electrons blink in and out of existence or that matter is being recreated in every instant. Could you post a video? I would love to investigate your experiment.
You wish to worship, I have no interest in changing your mind, knock yourself out, you should if you want to dissuade the other sky God worshipers from ever doubting their conviction of blind thoughtless faith in religious opinion, to answer these questions.
Where did I ever say anything about the sky? I worship the One who made the sky. Worship - to exalt and adore, to revere and serve that which is perceived to be greater - is a fundamental aspect of the human being. In all epochs and cultures all over the planet, all humans will be worshipping something. It may be a car, a woman, a pharaoh, or a football team, but you will naturally be inclined to this innate behavior.
To what benefit or purpose would your God in the sky need your puja, your thoughtless worship, you repetitive ritual, why would even a sky God need your blind reverence and adoration, or is it just supplication to protect yourself from the anger of the sky God.
True believers do feel fear when they consider retribution of their Lord.
SAY I fear the torment of an awful day if I should disobey my Lord.
Of course, Allah does not "need" our worship, since He is beyond all need of the worlds, but He clearly enjoys it, since every living thing and angels too bow down in worship to their Creator.
Have they not considered how everything God has created has its shadows move from right to left, bowing down to God so they themselves feel of lessened importance? Whatever is in Heaven and whatever is on Earth bows down before God, whether they are animals or angels.
Why, if it is to supplicate a sky God, to prevent vengeful punishment, would a sky God need to punish for a lack of worship and adoration.
We just concluded that God/Allah has no needs. So your question must be reworded Why would God wish to punish for a lack of worship and adoration. The reason comes straight from the Qur'an. We were ordered to. See again. Therefore, a lack of worship means disobedience. In the system of Islam, obedience is rewarded and disobedience is punished. Therefore, a lack of worship is punished.
Has your sky God got emotional issues, it requires endless worship?
I don't believe the Almighty God has emotional issues. I can't tell you why, but according to the Qur'an, those near Him offer endless worship. Are you too proud to?
Even though they may act proud, those who are with your Lord still glorify Him night and day; they never weary of it.
Explain why your sky God has created you, to what end, what is your ultimate purpose, what is your purpose after you die, more worship, adoration and blind observance of endless ritual?
This life is a test for the Hereafter. In the end, we will return to our Lord. The ultimate purpose in this life is to conform our desires to the will of Allah and to purify our souls so that the Divine Qualities may be manifested through us. As for our purpose after we die, I don't know, will "purpose" even have any meaning for us then? Allah knows best.
unfortunately you do not want to understand me, but simply present your religious confusion, and spread confusion.
Now who's doing the attacking? I have given rational and scriptural responses to all of your points of contention. I have done this not for you only, since you are admittedly finished with this forum, but I have made this detailed reply for the benefit of other forum members, in-sha'allah to strengthen their worship and reduce their confusion. You have to admit, the very title of this thread, "There is No God" is a confusing title. If I didn't want to understand you, I would never have read it.
Religion is a crime against humanity, the religious are the perpetrators.
Which Humanist said that? Bertrand Russell, Ayn Rand, Hitler? On the contrary, religion is the only thing that has restrained humanity from destroying itself through its violent self-serving insatiable greed.
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Salaam Abdulla-M,
I have repeatedly stated every religion is worthless, Buddhism unlike the Judaic religions is not as bloody but just as insane, I have little respect for a religious person, they are confused and confuse others with their blind faiths and conjecture.
You are quoting Christian religious translations of the Qur?an. Filled with Christian terminology and concepts that are in opposition to Islam, these are not brother religions as you conceive, as I said it is a waste of time to exchange posts with you, you have a view submerged in religion and all its confusion. If you truly wish to understand physics I can supply you with a list of books to read, please point out where I have written that particles pop in and out of existence, I don't remember that?
My view of conventional physics is not what you seem to think, conventional physics is almost completely wrong, and has been intentionally presented in this way to hide the truth, there was no big bang, no black holes, gravity is not the force in control of the universe, the Sun is not a nuclear furnace, the mathematics applied to modern physics is non-sense, as its abstract, quaternion mathematics should be used which accounts for the order, as used by Maxwell, the concept of gravity as an attraction of mass is not true, etc.
The reason for this intention perversion of physics is to allow people like yourself to continue to exist in utter confusion, and allow the Jinn (hidden) sovereigns to continue to enslave you mentally, physically and spiritually.
I notice you failed to answer any question I asked, just more confusion from you, if you don?t even have the ability to apply reason to investigate the root of words, do not post messages to me, post religious statements of conjecture to someone else.
If you investigate history just a tiny bit, to your surprise you'll discover more people have died from the insanity of religion over the centuries, than have ever died from the usury system, not just through wars, but through holding people in ignorance, povery and confusion, you can keep your religion, I'll stick with the Deen of Islam.
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Salaam ,
lets say your correct for one moment , how does your translation fit (with what i've quoted you saying) fit with ayat 171 surah 4 i.e where it says according to your translated would be
Allah(translated no god according to you) hu illah ,, what do you translate hu illah to?
please bear with me i'm trying to grasp your definition to the translation in this part of the quran, as this is my main basic of this debate as far
and lastly where do you get your arabic translations from outta curiosity?
SalaamSalaam Abdun Nur
are you avoiding answering me?
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Salaam Abdul Raffi,
my friend and Brother Badar translated this for you
. This being the complete, so to call sentence.
" For sure, One and Only, who is not illah(god) as well not an entity of adoration and worship" and goes on to define further....
Here is the link for from Lane. This words use was and is well know for pagan Arab god.
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000119.pdf
Badar
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Salaam Abdul Raffi,
my friend and Brother Badar translated this for you
. This being the complete, so to call sentence.
" For sure, One and Only, who is not illah(god) as well not an entity of adoration and worship" and goes on to define further....
Here is the link for from Lane. This words use was and is well know for pagan Arab god.
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000119.pdf
Badar
salaam Abdun Nur
thankyou for your reply, my reply has been a bit slow
i don't know about your friend and brother but i'm wonder why you need somebody else to translate for you on my behalf???? anyway no problem you may still be learning yourself?
as with lexicon i never heard of it untill you pointed it out to me ,as for me i only will try to follow the quran and not opinion based translations, i stick with the word for word approach myself . everyone see's differently tho we can only all hope to be guided for our next life including yourself,i was trying to understand how you translate with word for word without any opinions but your lexicon translations you put across didn't make grammatical sense in a word for word approach, and as for me telling you those ayats and anyone else it might reach i felt it was my duty only to inform , as far i can't find a problem calling Allah god nor any evidence to suggest otherwise , nor can i find a problem with it as its mentioned many times throughout the quran .. i would rather follow translations that are all in 99% agreeing rather then the 1% that isn't ,and on that note i'll leave it at that as Allah knows bestSalaam
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Salaam Abdul Raffi,
as Allah says, most people are at a loss, you are, as almost everyone else, free to follow the ignorance of the past, Islam has been intentionally corrupted, it has little effect upon me if you follow these corruption or not, I wish you well, the present is a reflection of theses corruptions, misery is now manifest worldwide the like of which has never been suffered, please feel free to continue this social and religious crime.
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Sorry to come in late, and Probabily say something that you might think is dumb....But....
If My Deffinition of Allah is
Allah= The ONE Creater who Created All things both Good and Bad...All things within the Heavens and the Earth. Allah is the God who we serve by Establishing a Society that Does Good Deads. He is Everywhere Omnipotent Omnipresent. He is Not Limited to the SKY, But Not Limited to the Ground. HE is not Limited to HE Nor Limited to SHE.
The GOD (ALLAH) who is LIMITLESS. Who KNOWS all things and is Connected to ALL THINGS.ALLAH cannot be limited to a Specific Color,Shape,Size,Gender,Species,Race,Mass,Weight,Light,Sound,Taste, Place, or any other type of Limitation. HE IS ALLAH. Manifesting Everything. ALL is from HIM and ALL will Return to Him. Before the before After the After. Infinite.
........-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ........ INFINENT Both ways. We as People or Creation are Not Individually ALLAH. I am NOT ALLAH. YOU ARE NOT ALLAH...But Collectivly perhaps we can BECOME APPART of his Royal ORDER.
For instance, The Use of the Royal "WE"... and Royal "US".... Perhaps if we submit...maybe we can become appart of the "WE" and "US" depending on our Level of Submission. THE UNITY, The Nsync. The CIRCLE.
However, There is a Seperation Between ALLAH and His Creation. HE is ABOVE ALL CREATION. Therefore I as an Individual am not ALLAH. nor are YOU.
Okay, So Abdun, Does my Description above co-inside with yours? I just dont understand How My View can be Translated as SKY GOD.
Because My understanding of Allah is not "SKY GOD" or "MOON GOD" or "SATRUN GOD"....because those are mere Creations. and They as Individual Creations cannot be God, Because the SKY is Limited to the SKY...The Moon is Limited to the Circumference of the Moon. Same with Saturn and the Sun.Same with Jesus, and Zuse (They are limted to Physical Male Human Bodies) Therefore cannot be God.
How can My Understanding of Allah Be "Sky GOD" if I believe ALLAH created the sky and also is not limted to the sky? that Sky stuff doesnt make sense in my understanind of Allah.
Thats the same thing if some Guy comes up to me and says..."You worship the Moon". How can I as a Muslim Worship the Moon God if ALLAH says that He has made the Sun and the Moon Subserviant to ME? (the moon is a limted Rock)
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Salaam Rick,
when I say sky God, I am not saying God of the sky, to think this is intentionally confusing what is obviously quiet clear, God is an outside concept, you do not grasp Allah because you conceive Allah as a God, therefore an external force.
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Thanks for bluntly saying this
God is an outside concept, you do not grasp Allah because you conceive Allah as a God, therefore an external force.
Let me offer two alternatives
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Meaning of a word does change and is personal. Discard the "old" meaning of God and assign the "new" meaning
God <-- Allah. I.e., God = Who Is - Not - An External Force To Be Worshiped -
I don't give a damn about it.
Call Allah or call Alrahman--for Him are the best names.
It's a matter of language. Personal. A lot like Love Action speaks louder than words.
P.S. Do you honestly think your understanding of Allah is the best ever?
as Allah says, most people are at a loss, you are, as almost everyone else, free to follow the ignorance of the past, Islam has been intentionally corrupted, it has little effect upon me if you follow these corruption or not, I wish you well, the present is a reflection of theses corruptions, misery is now manifest worldwide the like of which has never been suffered, please feel free to continue this social and religious crime.
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Salaam Rick,
when I say sky God, I am not saying God of the sky, to think this is intentionally confusing what is obviously quiet clear, God is an outside concept, you do not grasp Allah because you conceive Allah as a God, therefore an external force.
But what If I think Allah is an Outside And Inside Concept. Inward and outward. I dont limit Allah (God) to being an External Force.
I think He or It (Allah/GOD) is Omnipresent. Within everything and everywhere. In our Visible Reality and also in alternate realities.In between Subtonic Particles...Between atoms... In our Universe and If there is another Universe..There too. Eternal without Begining without end.
Infinatly Small and Infinantly Large.So how is this View of mine Really THAT different from yours?
If I believe All this to be true and say ALLAH....and You Believe this to be True but say NO-Illah...what is the major difference?
It seems like lingustic confusion.But w/e. Does it really MAtter?
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Salaam Rick,
you are viewing Allah as other, between, outside, inside, this is wrong.
There is only one consciousness in all existence, both physical and every other form, no other consciousness exists, this single consciousness manifests all reality instant to instant through the will of pure thought, you, the world, the universe and everything beyond is the imagination, the manifest potential of this single consciousness, so you could never meet Allah just as your thoughts could never meet you.
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so you could never meet Allah just as your thoughts could never meet you.
So Would you Say there is Always a Separation Between Allah and us? or are we all Appart of Allah?
I heard Paul says in the bible that "we live within God". Is this Compatible with your View?
From what I can gather from what your saying...It sounds like to me that you are saying we are appart of Allah's thoughts.I Think I can Understand or agree with this Single Conciousness you Speak of. I imagine it to be the Royal "WE" or the Royal "US".
The angles are too apart of this Single Conciousness.When I read the Quran and It says Meet Allah, I dont nessesarily Believe that our Souls are actually going to FLY to space and then past the Cosmos and then See a Giant Ball of Light, and that White ball of Light is going to talk and is going to say "I am Allah". astaghfirullah.
For example, I dont think Judgment Day is Literally Going to be Like Thishttp//www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx7TroR06-Q&feature=player_embedded
That is just a Physical Literal Intrepretation.I think it will be more of a Realization. I dont think Allah is a Giant White Ball of Light, because that would be a Idolitrus Limiting Belief.
Rather, Id say Allah is the Creator who Created everything and is above what the Human mind can Imagine. He is the Eternal and unlimited God.
Do I worship Him? Yes, Why? Because By Praying I belive It is Humbling me (Reminding me to do good) then by Physically making Good Deeds happen, I am doing my Duty. (worship)
I have a Question Abdun, Do you Say "Alhumdulilah"? Or do you say "Allah Akbar"? (God is Great) or make any sort of Adoration toawards ?
And, In your View How does the I.e. Allah... Talk to Men? for instance how he talked to Moses, or Isa, or Mary?
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Salaam Abdul Raffi,
as Allah says, most people are at a loss, you are, as almost everyone else, free to follow the
ignorance of the past, Islam has been intentionally corrupted, it has little effect upon me if you
follow these corruption or not, I wish you well, the present is a reflection of theses corruptions,
misery is now manifest worldwide the like of which has never been suffered, please feel free to
continue this social and religious crime.
Salaam
the social and religious crime that is manifest in the world you speak of is
because people would rather follow shaiyton Auzubillah min zolik and their misleaders thus makingshirk this is the real crime.
and i may be at loss perhaps? but you can't tell me your not, how do you know? you are judging us allhere by telling me and others that we are at loss?? i leave it to Allah to be the judge of me ....
funny how you agree with some translations i.e surah al-asr that people are in loss that don't follow
the truth wich you think is all of us then on other things you translate with opinions or others
opinions to suit your ego, and what are you anyway an atheist ? atheists always come into forums to
say or try and prove that there is no god and are proud.. as far you a little different except under
the disguise of Islam...why would anyone wether you are right or wrong follow your advise when you
don't answer them properly or answer them with rudeness or even ignore them from what i've seen on
here so far why? when we are all here looking for the truth are we not? /my message to some others
here is why are asking abdun nur the concept of Allah, when if we want to know the concept of Allah
why not look in the Quran wich is the best place? why are we asking others to know this??? so please
come back to Quran for guidance and mercy.. and attention to the moderators why is this topic allowed
in the first place ? a topic that starts out by cutting short words in the quran i.e There is No God.
when it should be There is No God but/other then/except Allah wich is disrespect of quran rules,
this to me is the real ignorance Abdun Nur have a look at surah 15 ayah 91-94..and lastly Abdun Nur
if you don't want to believe in God then that's your choice i'm not here to force you into my beliefs
and as i said before i'll leave that bit to Allah and only Allah can give people the right belief not
me , all i can say is think for a moment.. what if your wrong ? that i'm right and you don't
believe ,and also i have deeply pondered over your info have you pondered over mine?