Why does the Quran matter?
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the word "Christian" does not appear in The Quran. The word used is "nasara", meaning "supporters", namely the supporters/followers of Jesus.
Qur'aan has not given them name nasara either. It says those who identify themselves as Nisara , and in English they have chosen word "christian" for themselves. They are called by this identity accordingly.
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Yes dear, Pakistan, city Islamabad/Rawalpindi.
How do you know humans were made as they are now?
i just tried your link http//haqeeqat.org.pk
was surprised, have seen this....
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11105.0
and Aidid's video link......
http//www.aididsafar.com/video.html
peace
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Qur'aan has not given them name nasara either. It says those who identify themselves as Nisara , and in English they have chosen word "christian" for themselves. They are called by this identity accordingly.
262 Inna allatheena amanoo wa allatheena hadoo wa al nasara...
262 Surely those who trust, and those who are Jewish, and the "Nasara"..."Nasara" is the name of a group of people given in The Quran, namely the followers of Jesus. My point was that "Masihiyyun", which means "Christians", is not used in The Quran.
352 So when Jesus felt their rejection, he said, "Who are my supporters ("ansaree" towards God?" The disciples said, "We are God's supporters ("ansaru", we acknowledge God and we bear witness that we are ones who are peaceful."
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Hi humanists
I disagree with your ideologies of islam
The greatest power a human has is the ability to think. Islam is just another paradigm which limits the ability of your thoughts to reach outside of the box to find the truth. Think about it. Why do you need to care about what the Quran or even the bible wants? If you truly are a free mind, then why do you need to restrict your life? You know what is right and wrong, not from the Quran but from common sense, from what your parents teach you. Conscience is the highest form of justice, not some book. Your heart will tell you whether your actions are right or wrong. Your conscience will guide you over whether you have done the right or wrong thing. If you feel that eating pork is wrong, then it is wrong. If you feel that eating chicken is wrong, then it is wrong. What do you need the Quran for?
Why does islam limit your ability? I rather believe it does the opposite. Islam is a choice being muslim is a choice.
Why do you restrict your life with laws, common sense or what your parents teach you?
Your conscious can also be fooled to believe in what is bad as good and what is good as bad.
Where did ?commonsense, morals and education? come from? Just by thinking, living? Ever heard of ?Essentialism?? you seem to take that approach.
My God my God why do you keep replying with scripture which is utter rubbish and makes no sense? Tell me, if a man is virtous, lives a good life and worships God in his own way, will he go to heaven?
Curious how do you know if a man is virtuous? Lives a good life? And worships God his own way? how do you know his own way isn't conflicting?
A thought, you said
We have the law to govern how we live. And the difference between the law and your Quran is that people actually agreed on the law, society accepts the law as necessary otherwise it would fall apart. But the law is subject to change, the law is always subject to change depending on new developments, while the Quran can never be changed, even when it is blatantly wrong
And the laws we live in are not 100% the same or equally fair/just. Why is it a man who rapes or kills get charged with different law sentences? 2 man can rape a girl and both men get different sentences, why? Where?s the logic? The fairness? The justice?
Laws bend and change cos of number cos of consensus (even unchallenged consensus) that doesn?t necessarily mean it is right. Even with numbers, if a government wants to do something it will. Such as America going to war. Ok the war wasn?t a law but where is the justice in that? Isn?t that government abusing power? Is that a safe not falling apart society?
You said ?
IF I wish to eat pork, drink alcohol, change to another religion, marry a non muslim man(if a was a woman), I cannot do this.
?Let me tell you something ?you actually can!?. Why can?t you do it? Who is stopping you? I know a muslim lady who married a non muslim man, I know muslims who drink alcohol though I?m yet to meet a muslim who wishes to eat pork. But if you choose to do an action you have that choice.
I skipped a few posts what are you trying to say? That islam is intolerable? You mention why do we need Quran? I'll share my view..Quran is a guide and its underlying message can be found in different ways even without the Quran. However to attain a better level, following the guide would be necessary to further gain God consciousness. If you believe in the Quran and didn?t adhere to it, well I guess that would be a fault.
If you don?t follow the Quran I would ask why? Because you feel it unnecessary because you feel your morals/common sense/ parental guidance are just and right and above all but how do you know that for sure? You seem to repulse Quran and include cultural traditions as part of muslim/Islamic practices, so the question is by what guide/translation/understanding do you know the Quran? You?ve read it and a lot of people have and a lot of people, myself included have misunderstood verses. So what makes you think you read it with the right understanding?
Anyway I?ve asked many questions and you don?t need to answer them but at least think about it.
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Hi humanists
I disagree with your ideologies of islam
Why does islam limit your ability? I rather believe it does the opposite. Islam is a choice being muslim is a choice.
Really? So why did Muhammad write in threats of horrible fires of Hell for non believers in practically each page? Threats of how trinitarians, idolators, non believers in God, or in Hell etc will burn eternally? I know a friend who had the courage to leave Islam recently, she had unfortunately been held back many years due to threats of Hellfire.
Why do you restrict your life with laws, common sense or what your parents teach you?
Your conscious can also be fooled to believe in what is bad as good and what is good as bad.
Where did ?commonsense, morals and education? come from? Just by thinking, living? Ever heard of ?Essentialism?? you seem to take that approach.
Commonsense,morals etc certainly didn't come with Islam, they existed for millennia prior to Islam, indeed many religious books & many people who claimed to be Prophets-like Buddha, Jesus, Zarathushtra etc had taught excellent morals.
And the laws we live in are not 100% the same or equally fair/just. Why is it a man who rapes or kills get charged with different law sentences? 2 man can rape a girl and both men get different sentences, why? Where?s the logic? The fairness? The justice?
Laws bend and change cos of number cos of consensus (even unchallenged consensus) that doesn?t necessarily mean it is right. Even with numbers, if a government wants to do something it will. Such as America going to war. Ok the war wasn?t a law but where is the justice in that? Isn?t that government abusing power? Is that a safe not falling apart society?
Sure, laws bend & change, & religions sooner rather than later accept such changes. Islam is the slowest to adopt most often, but even it does.
Like the abolition of slavery, Muslim nations were the last to abandon slavery-Saudi outlawed it only in 1963, a millennia after USA & at Trinitarian Catholic Kennedy's request, but it finally did.
Positive changes more often than not come last in Islam, but come they do.
Or equal inheritance rights for women, currently Turkey has it, even other modern Muslim nations like Tunisia don't. Many non Muslim nations do.
Islam does retard these progress, but sooner rather than later, they happen.
I skipped a few posts what are you trying to say? That islam is intolerable? You mention why do we need Quran? I'll share my view..Quran is a guide and its underlying message can be found in different ways even without the Quran. However to attain a better level, following the guide would be necessary to further gain God consciousness. If you believe in the Quran and didn?t adhere to it, well I guess that would be a fault.
The Quran is a guide sure, but its incapability to be a good guide is amply demonstrated with all the societies which tried to adhere to it. Thats why we see so many Muslims, even from never colonized nations like Iran, or a past colonizer like Turkey moving to Western nations, thats why we see so many conflicts, & so much backwardness wherever the Quran is applied. Every sort of progress, from the abolition of slavery to equal inheritance of women happens last.
Let me tell you something ?you actually can!?. Why can?t you do it? Who is stopping you? I know a muslim lady who married a non muslim man, I know muslims who drink alcohol though I?m yet to meet a muslim who wishes to eat pork. But if you choose to do an action you have that choice.
No when Quranic laws are enforced, you don't. There are laws in multiple Muslim nations forbidding Muslim women from marrying non Muslim men, laws forbidding alcohol etc. Choice usually exists as long Muslims are not the majority, or if Quran & Islam is suppressed in favor of man made laws by the state.
If you don?t follow the Quran I would ask why? Because you feel it unnecessary because you feel your morals/common sense/ parental guidance are just and right and above all but how do you know that for sure? You seem to repulse Quran and include cultural traditions as part of muslim/Islamic practices, so the question is by what guide/translation/understanding do you know the Quran? You?ve read it and a lot of people have and a lot of people, myself included have misunderstood verses. So what makes you think you read it with the right understanding?
Not "cultural traditions" a common excuse amongst Muslims, but the Quran words itself show its not a great guide. It can always be excused if some people misunderstand verses, but if the majority of people who take up this guide do so, that really proves how poor a guide it is, especially is their non Muslim neighbours in similar circumstances don't.
Everywhere I see places which have tried to read it with the "right understanding" have ended up with messed up societies, only by sufficiently marginalizing it has any progress been made. I can easily compare the Muslims I see in Iran with the Bahais & Zoroastrians & see for myself.
Muslims escape from the poverty, social & economic problems in Islamic nations but still carry Islam with them coz they fail to realize that it was Islam which was responsible for those troubles.
Anyway I?ve asked many questions and you don?t need to answer them but at least think about it.
Thought about it. laugh I'm reminded of all the Muslims I met from various Islamic nations who often try to blame every problem in Islam on "Oh its culture, not religion," or, "They don't understand the real Quran," but conveniently escape to various non Muslim nations to settle down in places which don't follow the Quran as guidance, & try to give dawah to the people who've created these much better societies by not following the Quran! laugh
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Why does the quran matter? What if a person believes in God and not in any of the other requirements of Islam? what if I believe in God, live a virtous life, eat pork and drink alcohol (but don`t commit crimes).. Am I not as good a person as any Muslim?
I would actually say you're as good as a Muslim - a real muslim that is, please don't mistake us muslims for those extremist conservative gun crazed "muslims".
Not to be picky but it's spelled virtuous with a U.
Hatred of the infidel
Hatred of anybody who does not belive in the Quran
Disrespect for anybody who does not belive in what the Quran wants
Disregard for the beliefs of any person who has an opinion different to the QuranI don't think you read the Quran. Either you "read" the Quran by watching news segments about the extremist or you've accidentally read the hadith.
Live your lives in peace and live well.
I live my life in peace and wellness through Islam.
I read some of your post, not all of them, because it felt a bit redundant. It's like there was no real thought behind them.
Are you a troll or something? Instead of analyzing and keeping up an intellectual discussion you just kept knocking on anything anyone says, and any verses quoted by users for you to read.You're obviously not looking for answers, and you're not here to learn anything new. You're just here to push your opinions on us, and to tell us how wrong we are for believing. Does that make you any better than all the other extremist - trying to make everyone think like them?
If you're in peace with yourself and your beliefs then all I have to say is God bless you! But don't feel it's your duty to convert us to whatever it is you call yourself.
I'm happy as a Muslim, Islam gives me answers. If I had Islam taken away from me I wouldn't be happy anymore, I would be sad. Are you trying to make me sad, Humanist?
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Really? So why did Muhammad write in threats of horrible fires of Hell for non believers in practically each page? Threats of how trinitarians, idolators, non believers in God, or in Hell etc will burn eternally? I know a friend who had the courage to leave Islam recently, she had unfortunately been held back many years due to threats of Hellfire.
Remove the threat of punishment through application of law for twentyfour hours in America or any other society and see what happens and really the people are virtuous? Even when there was chance not to be caught in the darkness what happened?
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Fawzia
Really? So why did Muhammad write in threats of horrible fires of Hell for non believers in practically each page? Threats of how trinitarians, idolators, non believers in God, or in Hell etc will burn eternally? I know a friend who had the courage to leave Islam recently, she had unfortunately been held back many years due to threats of Hellfire.
What does this have to do with any limiting ability? She held back because of threats of hellfire? If she don?t believe in hell then why would it hold her back? Her concern is illogical. so is your thought
Obviously you just wanna pick an argument these questions weren't directed to you but you decided to put your 2cents in and be evasive to suit your need. at least have some courtesy.
BTW they?re not threats, they're warnings for those who wish to take heed and for the non muslims who don't believe in it,why should they be concerned they will have no problems for their mental/psychological state, unless off course they're doubting their beliefs and actually think hell fire exists for them.
Commonsense,morals etc certainly didn't come with Islam, they existed for millennia prior to Islam, indeed many religious books & many people who claimed to be Prophets-like Buddha, Jesus, Zarathushtra etc had taught excellent morals.
I didn?t say morals came with islam. Besides islam isn?t a religion as you may think, it?s a deen and there is a difference. Besides all, this islam confirms things of the past, things that are useful for us things that are on truth. It?s not like, hey this book is a new invention of how to make a wheel, the wheel was already invented the Quran just tells us how to go about using it in the best way. This isn?t the point but obviously you seem to think that muslim think, Quran is the only book that teaches morals. Common sense is an ideology people fail to realise that.
Sure, laws bend & change, & religions sooner rather than later accept such changes. Islam is the slowest to adopt most often, but even it does.
Like the abolition of slavery, Muslim nations were the last to abandon slavery-Saudi outlawed it only in 1963, a millennia after USA & at Trinitarian Catholic Kennedy's request, but it finally did.
Positive changes more often than not come last in Islam, but come they do.
Or equal inheritance rights for women, currently Turkey has it, even other modern Muslim nations like Tunisia don't. Many non Muslim nations do.
Islam does retard these progress, but sooner rather than later, they happen.
Islam retards nothing, people retard the world. If you had half a brain you'd realise the history of Saudi and know it's not a true representation of islam, Turkey is not much better nor Tunisia.
The Quran is a guide sure, but its incapability to be a good guide is amply demonstrated with all the societies which tried to adhere to it. Thats why we see so many Muslims, even from never colonized nations like Iran, or a past colonizer like Turkey moving to Western nations, thats why we see so many conflicts, & so much backwardness wherever the Quran is applied. Every sort of progress, from the abolition of slavery to equal inheritance of women happens last.
The countries you mention are pathetic examples. No country represents islam, the land is for all. The only thing that represents islam is Quran and people ?try? to adhere to it the way they know.
So the demonstration of the societies are not a reflection of Quran but rather peoples ideologies. Pity your thoughts are stuck with what you see.
No when Quranic laws are enforced, you don't. There are laws in multiple Muslim nations forbidding Muslim women from marrying non Muslim men, laws forbidding alcohol etc. Choice usually exists as long Muslims are not the majority, or if Quran & Islam is suppressed in favor of man made laws by the state.
Quranic laws are enforced? By who and what? Quranic law is a persons choice to take, force has no link with islam.
Not "cultural traditions" a common excuse amongst Muslims, but the Quran words itself show its not a great guide. It can always be excused if some people misunderstand verses, but if the majority of people who take up this guide do so, that really proves how poor a guide it is, especially is their non Muslim neighbours in similar circumstances don't.
no fawzia it proves peoples lack of ability to try and understand it. How many people learn Arabic to understand Quran and not just recite it like a parrot? The guide is there for people who wish to take it, if people don?t take it seriously or rely on others for guidance that?s their problem and possibly a problem for others to tolerate and deal with ignorance.
Everywhere I see places which have tried to read it with the "right understanding" have ended up with messed up societies, only by sufficiently marginalizing it has any progress been made. I can easily compare the Muslims I see in Iran with the Bahais & Zoroastrians & see for myself.
just because people try to do something it doesn't mean they do it right. your comparison of such muslims means nothing.
Thought about it. I'm reminded of all the Muslims I met from various Islamic nations who often try to blame every problem in Islam on "Oh its culture, not religion," or, "They don't understand the real Quran," but conveniently escape to various non Muslim nations to settle down in places which don't follow the Quran as guidance, & try to give dawah to the people who've created these much better societies by not following the Quran!
So all these people say its culture not religion, then maybe you should think twice about accusing something as Islamic or muslim, rather than accepting what the sheep tell you or the sheep you read.
Muslims escape from the poverty, social & economic problems in Islamic nations but still carry Islam with them coz they fail to realize that it was Islam which was responsible for those troubles.
Escape to non muslim nations? A lot of people migrate due to war or a better quality life and here you are bashing muslims?
Societies are built over time and injustices will break down.
Some people follow principles of Quran without even knowing it.Your malice to muslims and Quran is so strong it makes one wonder what are you doing here?
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Peace,
You might want to add closed-mindedness.
You seem to be clueless of the term "muslim". It means "one who is peaceful". In fact, according to The Quran (Reading), all who believe in God, do righteous deeds and believe in the hereafter are deemed "muslims". Those who follow and uphold The Quran are called "mumineen" (those who trust/believe).
I recommend this article http//www.free-minds.org/node/10
Look, you can say it means peace, you can say it means LCD TV, you can say it means football. A rose by any other name. Look at this history of your religion since the prophet..where has there been peace? After all have been conquered and are under the banner of Islam, and when all the kafir have been converted or been executed, except for those rich enough to become dhimi, then there is peace. Not that different from the Nazi
s really if you think about it (can you really say that youve thought about it?). Those who follow and uphold the Quran are not welcome anywhere in the world..even in other muslim countries who dont want trouble makers and people unable to contribute anything useful. No matter how good you think it is, the fact is that your religion is incompatible with humanist values of the modern world. And before you sprout some rehearsed nothings about human rights and respect of life under Islam, please look at the reality. Dhimi and slaves have no rights. Maybe your religion is not in sync with the Quran. Then why not end the religion because its obviously not working..it`s an abomination before God.How can you be telling us about "the message of the Koran" when you yourself have not read it and/or are totally clueless about it's teachings/concepts/contents? BTW, the word "Christian" does not appear in The Quran. The word used is "nasara", meaning "supporters", namely the supporters/followers of Jesus.
Some principles/commands/teachings of The Quran and it's message
16125 Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones.
So, in fact, "the Islamc scholars that call for peace and dialog with Christians today" are doing the right thing. It is what is commanded in The Quran.
2563 The servants of the Almihgty are the ones who walk on the earth in humility and if the ignorant speak to them, they say, "Peace."
FYI, "islam" means "peacefulness". I recommend reading this article
Also, war is only allowed in self-defense and against aggressors/oppressorsAgain the message of the Koran is very clearly seen in the actions of the lunatics who follow it, and have followed it over the ages. Sure, 1000 years ago the Islamic world was ahead of the Kafir. But because of the backward nature of an ideology which is based on a 1500 year old book, which cannot be amended or changed to suit the human condition, it is inevitable that the troubles and primitiveness in mind and soul of todays muslims is the end result. The inflexibility and intolerance of foreign ideas and values which is promoted by a close minded and jealous religion, which is terrified of allowing it`s followers to choose for themselves, will obviously result in Afghanistans, Pakistans and all the other backward muslim countries which do not have oil and dhimmi to operate their economies.
And again, you can call it peaceful for all you want, but when the founder of the religion of peace himself slaughtered untold hundreds and kept their wives and daughters as his sex slaves, you will of course forgive those of us who remain sceptical. Your religion thinks the rest of the world is deaf and blind. All the while you claim to be peacefull while killing, enslaving and forcing people to convert around the world. And before you quote some empty verse about no compulsion in religion, perhaps you should consult a book which actually contains fact and truth, like a history book to see if your verses make any sense.
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Hi humanists
I disagree with your ideologies of islam
Why does islam limit your ability? I rather believe it does the opposite. Islam is a choice being muslim is a choice.
Why do you restrict your life with laws, common sense or what your parents teach you?
Your conscious can also be fooled to believe in what is bad as good and what is good as bad.
Where did ?commonsense, morals and education? come from? Just by thinking, living? Ever heard of ?Essentialism?? you seem to take that approach.
Curious how do you know if a man is virtuous? Lives a good life? And worships God his own way? how do you know his own way isn't conflicting?
Being muslim is not a choice. You are born a muslim and you have no choice. The reality is that Islam is like the mafia. If you leave, you get killed. Look at the reality of things and not obscure verses. there is no country in the world where islamic law is in place which would allow a human to exercise his/her human rights and leave the religion. There is no real freedom in the religion because you can
t leave it. Oh dont count the muslims who life in kafir countries since these are free lands where humans can chose for themselves what they wish to believe in.Curious how do you know if a man is virtuous? Lives a good life? And worships God his own way? how do you know his own way isn't conflicting?
Only God can decide that, when you die and face him. No mad mullah or iman quoting a dubious book can give you that answer.
A thought, you said
And the laws we live in are not 100% the same or equally fair/just. Why is it a man who rapes or kills get charged with different law sentences? 2 man can rape a girl and both men get different sentences, why? Where?s the logic? The fairness? The justice?Your right. It
s probably better for the man to be given a light sentence and for the woman to be stoned to death or given 00s of lashes for being alone with a man/men who are not relatives . Surely that is logic, fairness and justice.The law is not perfect, nothing created by man, especially the koran, could possibly be perfect. That is why we have judicial reviews, elections and debates between reasonable men so that the law can be changed if it is discovered to be wrong. Today slavery is illegal where it wasn`t so 100 years ago. Slavery is wrong, completely at odds with human rights, yet the koran allows it, in whatever limited form you wish to argue, it is allowed, Therefore the koran is wrong and needs to be changed. So why would anybody live their lives by something which is obviously wrong yet cannot be changed? But why?
Laws bend and change cos of number cos of consensus (even unchallenged consensus) that doesn?t necessarily mean it is right. Even with numbers, if a government wants to do something it will. Such as America going to war. Ok the war wasn?t a law but where is the justice in that? Isn?t that government abusing power? Is that a safe not falling apart society?
And isn
t it great that people have the right to challenge and question these decisions? Isnt it great that people can protest the war and change the goverment in elections?Let me tell you something ?you actually can!?. Why can?t you do it? Who is stopping you? I know a muslim lady who married a non muslim man, I know muslims who drink alcohol though I?m yet to meet a muslim who wishes to eat pork. But if you choose to do an action you have that choice.
I skipped a few posts what are you trying to say? That islam is intolerable? You mention why do we need Quran? I'll share my view..Quran is a guide and its underlying message can be found in different ways even without the Quran. However to attain a better level, following the guide would be necessary to further gain God consciousness. If you believe in the Quran and didn?t adhere to it, well I guess that would be a fault.
If you don?t follow the Quran I would ask why? Because you feel it unnecessary because you feel your morals/common sense/ parental guidance are just and right and above all but how do you know that for sure? You seem to repulse Quran and include cultural traditions as part of muslim/Islamic practices, so the question is by what guide/translation/understanding do you know the Quran? You?ve read it and a lot of people have and a lot of people, myself included have misunderstood verses. So what makes you think you read it with the right understanding?
Anyway I?ve asked many questions and you don?t need to answer them but at least think about it.
I
m guessing you probably live in the land of the kafir and there are no islamic laws in place. Lucky you!! In reality, any muslim country in the world will restrict and limit the ability of its muslim people to do as they wish, within the laws as agreed by mankind, not imposed by an outdated book. So you cannot just perform an action if it is your choice because the crazies who run your religion, as guided by the book, won`t allow you too. In Muslim countries, you have no right except for what the uneducated and narrow minded nutcases who run the religion, as guided by the book, say you have. Try visiting a real muslim country, Pakistan for example and see for yourself what Islam really stands for.I think you and most people on this website are looking at an ideal type of Islam and are not looking at the reality. Billions of people are living their lives in ignorance, fear and in a state of semi slavery because of this religion. Think of how women in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia are taught to believe that they are less then men, less than humans and their minds are broken to believe this. How is your religion any different from communism or nazism?
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I would actually say you're as good as a Muslim - a real muslim that is, please don't mistake us muslims for those extremist conservative gun crazed "muslims".
Not to be picky but it's spelled virtuous with a U.
I don't think you read the Quran. Either you "read" the Quran by watching news segments about the extremist or you've accidentally read the hadith.
I live my life in peace and wellness through Islam.
I read some of your post, not all of them, because it felt a bit redundant. It's like there was no real thought behind them.
Are you a troll or something? Instead of analyzing and keeping up an intellectual discussion you just kept knocking on anything anyone says, and any verses quoted by users for you to read.You're obviously not looking for answers, and you're not here to learn anything new. You're just here to push your opinions on us, and to tell us how wrong we are for believing. Does that make you any better than all the other extremist - trying to make everyone think like them?
If you're in peace with yourself and your beliefs then all I have to say is God bless you! But don't feel it's your duty to convert us to whatever it is you call yourself.
I'm happy as a Muslim, Islam gives me answers. If I had Islam taken away from me I wouldn't be happy anymore, I would be sad. Are you trying to make me sad, Humanist?
Oh but I am looking for answers. I am here because I have always wondered why evidently intelligence people who are clearly capable of free thought could still be freely involved in this religion. I am here to try and deduce whether you have actually thought about it and still believe that this religion is correct, despite all the falsehoods which have been uncovered over the years.
As for letting people believe in what they will, I
m all for that. Funny how nobody goes to the Buddhist or Hindhu website to challenge their beliefs. Its because your religion is so intolerant, so hateful of everything which is opposed to it that it creates a counter reaction among others. Every single action has a reaction and the tonnes of anti islamic literature worldwide form this reaction. If Islam truly was a peaceful tolerant religion, I would not be here. I am trying to understand why anybody would defend this religion? -
"Humanist",
It seems you still did not understand the difference between 'Quran alone islam' and traditional Islam.
This may be helpful. -
Oh but I am looking for answers. I am here because I have always wondered why evidently intelligence people who are clearly capable of free thought could still be freely involved in this religion. I am here to try and deduce whether you have actually thought about it and still believe that this religion is correct, despite all the falsehoods which have been uncovered over the years.
As for letting people believe in what they will, I
m all for that. Funny how nobody goes to the Buddhist or Hindhu website to challenge their beliefs. Its because your religion is so intolerant, so hateful of everything which is opposed to it that it creates a counter reaction among others. Every single action has a reaction and the tonnes of anti islamic literature worldwide form this reaction. If Islam truly was a peaceful tolerant religion, I would not be here. I am trying to understand why anybody would defend this religion?You still don't get it do you? There are different branches of Islam. You got Sunni, Shia, Ibadi, Wahhabi, Sufi, Quranic etc. etc.
We on this forum are the peaceful kind - because the Quran tells us of peace and tolerance - it's right there, dude, in black and white. And we're followers of only the Quran.
If you revert your attention to the hadith though, you'll find all the things you've been criticizing. But the hadith is not the Quran and not everyone follows the hadith. I hope you get my point, if you don't, then I'm wondering what your purpose here really is. So you got your answer - you're preaching to the wrong choir.Every single action has a reaction and the tonnes of anti islamic literature worldwide form this reaction.
Which actions are you referring to specifically. I know what you're going to answer - well figure out who is behind the actions of the specific occurrences you just thought about and look up what their faith is. Not just Islam. Nobody is just Muslim. Find out their specific beliefs, then find a forum full of people who believe in the same thing.
Your face should be red by now - because you're bitching IN THE WRONG FORUM. D
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You still don't get it do you? There are different branches of Islam. You got Sunni, Shia, Ibadi, Wahhabi, Sufi, Quranic etc. etc.
We on this forum are the peaceful kind - because the Quran tells us of peace and tolerance - it's right there, dude, in black and white. And we're followers of only the Quran.
If you revert your attention to the hadith though, you'll find all the things you've been criticizing. But the hadith is not the Quran and not everyone follows the hadith. I hope you get my point, if you don't, then I'm wondering what your purpose here really is. So you got your answer - you're preaching to the wrong choir.Please see below verses and tell me whether this is consistent with peace and tolerance.
Which actions are you referring to specifically. I know what you're going to answer - well figure out who is behind the actions of the specific occurrences you just thought about and look up what their faith is. Not just Islam. Nobody is just Muslim. Find out their specific beliefs, then find a forum full of people who believe in the same thing.
Your face should be red by now - because you're bitching IN THE WRONG FORUM. D
Look at the following examples of you`re quranic verses. To be fair, I have managed to find peace and tolerance in each verse, so maybe you are right. Is this what you believe in?
The Qur'an
Qur'an (2191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter ...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."
By fighting until persecution is no more and religion is for Allah, there will definately be peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (356) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
Then they will be peaceful and tolerant.
Qur'an (474) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."
These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers and peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (489) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they) But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
Seize and slay in the name of peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (495) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"
This passage not only criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, but it also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Qur'an, but rather a spiritual struggle. But of course it`s also about peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (533) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"
Obviously is you murder, crucify, cut off legs and imprison people, there will be peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (812) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle. It is obviously in the interest of peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (815) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."
More peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (839) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"
And when such is achieved, there will be peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (859-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."
Dismayed by peacefull and tolerant.
Qur'an (95) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."
According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam. This is the best way to create more peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (914) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."
Disgracefully peacefull and tolerance.
Qur'an (929) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
And once they are subdued there will be peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (930) - "And the Jews say Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"
Peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (938-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place."
This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell. This is how you create peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (973) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."
Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that they are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today's devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith. But its ok because it`s a religion of peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (9123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."
That way, when they are all dead or converted, there can be peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (2552) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an)." "Strive against"
Definately peaceful and tolerant.
Qur'an (474) - "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,"
How are you going to make the prisoners once you smite their necks? Oh, its their wives and daughters you want as sex slaves, not them. Peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (4817) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom."
I
m not sick or blind or lame so I guess youre religion is not going to be peaceful or tolerant to me is it?Qur'an (4829) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"
Peace and tolerance towards Kafir?
I mean seriously you
re intelligent enough to use the internet, dont you feel its a bit wierd how a book of peace and tolerance has so much hatred and condones war so much? This is the real Quran which you believe in and not one with all the bad things, I suppose. Do you really believe that this is the word of God which calls for killing, hatred and conversion? If god wanted as all to be muslims, dont you think we would be? the answer is he doesnt, because god is silent. He let`s us live our lives the way we wish and we are only answerable when we face him. The quran does not preach this, it preaches the verses as seen above.Anyway, I don`t expect you to welcome me to the forum welcome After all
?O you who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers Do you wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?? (4144 )
Religion of peace and tolerance? yeah
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Humanist
Not everyone is born in a muslim family. Also if that be the case in any household you have no choice but to accept what you're parents feed you until your independent. That would make all parents mafias muslim background or not.
Islam isnt the mafia, if you leave you get killed according to who? Sunnis? Shias? Some innovated sect claiming to be muslim?
The reality of the world is there is no country following Islamic law. Just because in some countries people are subjugated doesnt mean it is Islamic. Also how do they know if youre muslim or not?
Only God can decide that, when you die and face him. No mad mullah or iman quoting a dubious book can give you that answer.
Great, I was looking for your answer because you asked what was wrong with a person who is virtuous and worships God to his understanding etc. if you cant define it then how can there be right or wrong, how can you think of morals? We will definitely be requited by God for the consequences of our deeds good or bad.
Your right. It
s probably better for the man to be given a light sentence and for the woman to be stoned to death or given 00s of lashes for being alone with a man/men who are not relatives . Surely that is logic, fairness and justice.Stoning to death isnt Islamic. Light sentence to man is crap talk. You should correct your erroneous understanding of islam.
The law is not perfect, nothing created by man, especially the koran, could possibly be perfect. That is why we have judicial reviews, elections and debates between reasonable men so that the law can be changed if it is discovered to be wrong. Today slavery is illegal where it wasn`t so 100 years ago. Slavery is wrong, completely at odds with human rights, yet the koran allows it, in whatever limited form you wish to argue, it is allowed, Therefore the koran is wrong and needs to be changed. So why would anybody live their lives by something which is obviously wrong yet cannot be changed? But why?
Why especially Quran why single it out.. Does Quran say slavery is allowed? if so please show me because obviously youre onto something so enlighten me.
And isn
t it great that people have the right to challenge and question these decisions? Isnt it great that people can protest the war and change the goverment in elections?You have the right to question and challenge islam now. I mean what is it youre doing right now? Arguing for the fun of it? Has the world formed humanists into sadists? Id like to think youre challenging the Quran but unfortunately your Quranic knowledge seems tainted with sectarian opinions.
I
m guessing you probably live in the land of the kafir and there are no islamic laws in place. Lucky you!! In reality, any muslim country in the world will restrict and limit the ability of its muslim people to do as they wish, within the laws as agreed by mankind, not imposed by an outdated book. So you cannot just perform an action if it is your choice because the crazies who run your religion, as guided by the book, won`t allow you too. In Muslim countries, you have no right except for what the uneducated and narrow minded nutcases who run the religion, as guided by the book, say you have. Try visiting a real muslim country, Pakistan for example and see for yourself what Islam really stands for.Where are you living?
What makes Pakistan so Islamic? Btw their laws arent guided by the book
I think you and most people on this website are looking at an ideal type of Islam and are not looking at the reality. Billions of people are living their lives in ignorance, fear and in a state of semi slavery because of this religion. Think of how women in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia are taught to believe that they are less then men, less than humans and their minds are broken to believe this. How is your religion any different from communism or nazism?
Oh seriously this is pathetic. Billions of westerners are told you women are liberated They wanna get educated they can, want a career they can though theyre pay isnt = to men, want to be mothers they can. Women in the west are expected to be wonder women and do everything and this is the so called liberation? Oh then we have the other extreme of Saudis and some Afghans/Pakistanis who apparently teach women are less then men.
Do yourself a favour and work out the difference between islam and what isnt islam, islam doesnt teach this. Just because some bozos introduced ideologies and tried to indoctrinate people with it, it doesnt mean it is true nor islamic. every country in schools are indoctrinating children with ideologies. Does it mean theyre all ignorant/knowledgeable? Does it mean theyre all evil/good oh wait is this liberation? How could it be! indoctrinating children!
Youre telling me or rather implying to me islam is Pakistan, islam is Afghanistan islam is Saudi Arabia. Clearly you dunno what islam is. The truth of the matter is life isnt about idealism, life isnt about how great one country is and how crap another is.
Im not looking at an ideal type of islam, I am TELLING you what islam says about itself, not some idealist approach not some sugar coated version. The truth of the scripture not some ulema, scholar or whatever have you opinion/ doctrine.
If you knew islam, you wouldnt be questioning some so called likelihood with some oppressive regimes.
This site might be useful for you
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/but maybe you won't even look at it.. probably because you don't want to challenge your own thoughts of what you think islam is. i guess that's your choice. Some people say ignorance is bliss but who knows.
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Humanist
Not everyone is born in a muslim family. Also if that be the case in any household you have no choice but to accept what you're parents feed you until your independent. That would make all parents mafia?s muslim background or not.
Islam isn?t the mafia, if you leave you get killed according to who? Sunnis? Shias? Some innovated sect claiming to be muslim?
The reality of the world is there is no country following Islamic law. Just because in some countries people are subjugated doesn?t mean it is Islamic. Also how do they know if you?re muslim or not?
I think you need to get out and see the world a little bit. What you believe and how the muslim world actually is are 2 different things. Actions speak louder than words, and the actions of muslims over 1500 year render your words silent.
Great, I was looking for your answer because you asked what was wrong with a person who is virtuous and worships God to his understanding etc. if you can?t define it then how can there be right or wrong, how can you think of morals? We will definitely be requited by God for the consequences of our deeds good or bad.
Its the madmen who run your religion who say what is right or wrong for it
s followers, in the real world of course. Which country do you live in? it might help a bit to know. Your "true Islam" which you preach here..if it was widely followed and believed, would end up like the Sunni and Shia sects which you look down on, because your religion is made to allow for abuse. Its like alcohol, you drink enough of it, your going to get drunk. You dont want to blame the alcohol which makes your drunk, instead blaming the poor human who cant help abusing it like its meant to be abused. Why?Stoning to death isn?t Islamic. Light sentence to man is crap talk. You should correct your erroneous understanding of islam.
Why especially Quran why single it out.. Does Quran say ?slavery is allowed?? if so please show me because obviously you?re onto something so enlighten me.I mean really. in the age of the internet you still can`t find it for yourself? Maybe this will help unwind the brainwash a little bit
Qur'an (3350) - "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee"
Qur'an (235-6) - "..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..."
Qur'an (424) - "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess."
Qur'an (869) - "But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good" (according to verse 71) "Allah gave you mastery over them."
Qur'an (2432) - "And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves..."
Qur'an (217 - "O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female."
Qur'an (1675) - "Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men one) a slave under the dominion of another; He has no power of any sort; and (the other) a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favours from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly are the two equal? (By no means praise be to Allah."
I think after the slavery quote, maybe it is you who needs to understand true Islam a little bit?
You have the right to question and challenge islam now. I mean what is it you?re doing right now? Arguing for the fun of it? Has the world formed humanists into sadists? I?d like to think you?re challenging the Quran but unfortunately your Quranic knowledge seems tainted with sectarian opinions.
Again I am challenging it because this is the internet and none of you are able to strike my head off and make me a youtube sensation. the freedom and liberty which we enjoy on the internet has nothing to do with Islam at all.
Oh seriously this is pathetic. Billions of westerners are told ?you women are liberated? They wanna get educated they can, want a career they can though they?re pay isn?t = to men, want to be mothers they can. Women in the west are expected to be wonder women and do everything and this is the so called liberation? Oh then we have the other extreme of Saudi?s and some Afghans/Pakistani?s who apparently teach women are less then men.
They have a choice. You don`t appreciate the choice because you take it for granted, unlike the millions of muslim women in the world who are unable to speak out for themselves.
Do yourself a favour and work out the difference between islam and what isn?t islam, islam doesn?t teach this. Just because some bozo?s introduced ideologies and tried to indoctrinate people with it, it doesn?t mean it is true nor islamic. every country in schools are indoctrinating children with ideologies. Does it mean they?re all ignorant/knowledgeable? Does it mean they?re all evil/good oh wait is this liberation? How could it be! indoctrinating children!
You?re telling me or rather implying to me islam is Pakistan, islam is Afghanistan islam is Saudi Arabia. Clearly you dunno what islam is. The truth of the matter is life isn?t about idealism, life isn?t about how great one country is and how crap another is.
I?m not looking at an ideal type of islam, I am TELLING you what islam says about itself, not some idealist approach not some sugar coated version. The truth of the scripture not some ulema, scholar or whatever have you opinion/ doctrine.
If you knew islam, you wouldn?t be questioning some so called likelihood with some oppressive regimes.
This site might be useful for you
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/but maybe you won't even look at it.. probably because you don't want to challenge your own thoughts of what you think islam is. i guess that's your choice. Some people say ignorance is bliss but who knows.
Actually I have looked at it but it still makes no sense in light of the verses I have quoted on this page and the last. Maybe you could help to reconcile these differences for me?
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The Qur'an
Qur'an (2191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter ...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."
By fighting until persecution is no more and religion is for Allah, there will definately be peace and tolerance.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/002.0252.gif
and engage in war with them wherever they confront you in combat and drive them out from the place from where they had driven you out. And spreading irritation/disturbance/disquiet/intellectual deflections/ dismembering unity and harmony/liquefying the community is far greater/serious matter than individual murder. And you avoid war in the precincts of Sacred Mosque unless they attack you within it. For reason of attack, therefore you fight back. This is the response/return for disbelievers.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.192.gif
As a sequel to your retaliation, if they desist , you ignore
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.192.gif
since Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving/overlooking faults, the Merciful.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/2.193a.gif
And you fight with them conclusively till tumult no more remains there and the system prevails exclusively for Allah. For reason if they desist/end hostility, therefore/in consequence, no unrestrained attitude is allowed except upon those who are mischievous/distorters. -
Maybe your religion is not in sync with the Quran. Then why not end the religion because it
s obviously not working..its an abomination before God.This is the most astute thing you've said on this forum, agreed. The 'religion' as practiced by the masses is not in sync with the Quran. Many of us here are actively striving to 'end the religion' as you put it cause we agree with you that it is an 'abomination before God.' Bravo for your insight. It's a pity it had to be sandwiched in between volumes of misplaced vitriol and ad hominem attacks.
Peace.
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Humanist
I think you need to get out and see the world a little bit. What you believe and how the muslim world actually is are 2 different things Actions speak louder than words, and the actions of muslims over 1500 year render your words silent.
what the Muslim world is, isn?t what the ?muslim? world is. The Muslims today are not a true reflection of islam. Know that today what Muslims are, are basically upholding their socio-cultural context mixing it with religion and saying this is islam, over the 1500 years muslims/Muslims have done good. Maybe you only like to pick and choose historical bits.
Yeh actions speak louder than words, but the actions of Muslims doesn?t mean it is islam. So if a person is a sinner and claims to be muslim must that mean this is islam? Maybe you should reconsider reading the Quran and asking yourself what is islam and what isn?t.
Its the madmen who run your religion who say what is right or wrong for it
s followers, in the real world of course. Which country do you live in? it might help a bit to know. Your "true Islam" which you preach here..if it was widely followed and believed, would end up like the Sunni and Shia sects which you look down on, because your religion is made to allow for abuse. Its like alcohol, you drink enough of it, your going to get drunk. You dont want to blame the alcohol which makes your drunk, instead blaming the poor human who cant help abusing it like its meant to be abused. Why?Your analogy don?t make sense. The madmen are upheld by sheep not thinkers. What difference does it make what country I live in? I live in Australia, where do you live?
No it won?t end up like Sunni and Shia sect why would it? Made to allow for abuse? Can you be specific in such claims.
The human who is abusing the alcohol is at fault. Why blame alcohol? It?s your choice to consume it. Even with alcohol there is benefit in it, over consumption can cause drunkenness and that?s when human error/desire/wish/want whatever comes in. if they can?t help abusing it, it means they need help. A person who really is concerned for humanity would help.
Where?s the abuse in my thought?
The verses of ?slavery? you mentioned
3350, 235-6, 424, 869, 2432, 2178, 1675Because you?re so smart and apparently understand Quran which word in 3350, 236, 424 means slavery?
Oh no 2178 recognised ?slavery? existed.
And 1675 is a parable, but wait you said ?slavery is allowed? I didn?t see any verses alluding to what you said.
So maybe you should reconsider what the true islam is.
Again I am challenging it because this is the internet and none of you are able to strike my head off and make me a youtube sensation. the freedom and liberty which we enjoy on the internet has nothing to do with Islam at all.
Ok maybe you?re living in some country that subjugates how you live. So maybe you were raised Muslim you seem to give that implication. Tell me where it says ?strike the head of someone who apostates from islam?. If people do things in the name of Islam it doesn?t mean it is islam. Read the scripture and you will know their acts have nothing to do with islam. But you don?t want to read the scripture you want to pick and choose what you think you know islam is.
They have a choice. You don`t appreciate the choice because you take it for granted, unlike the millions of muslim women in the world who are unable to speak out for themselves.
They have choice yet they are suffering from a system. Muslim women around the world have choices. Some have better opportunities than others due to the socio-economic status of their country or their homes. In life everyone has different opportunities.
Actually I have looked at it but it still makes no sense in light of the verses I have quoted on this page and the last. Maybe you could help to reconcile these differences for me?
How about you show me what part of the site doesn?t make sense with the topics of verses you have quoted. Then we can discuss.
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Dear Humanist thanks for trying to wake up deep sleepers of their long slumber. However, despite all effort to show them with examples from Quran; that there is fundamental misunderstanding, misconception and wrong translations. I am yet unable to wake a single one up from his/her slumber. It is just like playing a flute in front of a black buffalo.
May Rabb still bless us?
Badar