Why does the Quran matter?
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The only question it answers is how brainwashed and deluded one must be to believe that these are the word of god!
I would agree with the above line, and I will explain why.
I see where the humanist is coming from as I was getting to the same point when I looked at the pathetic conditions of the world caused by the religious fanatism of all religions, no matter which religion you look at. Every so called religious group has caused havoc on the earth, whenever, they had a chance. The question then is whether the God is teaching them the tyranny (with few good things in between) or whether the tyranny is the creation of human mind to become the most powerful over all other.When I read Qur'Aan, ( things written under the Arabic text ) I did not see as to how it could create a difference for the humanity. But then I realized that so called Muslims, for the first few hundred years had done more for human rights, scientific developments, education and tolerance that even the Jews and other oppressed would seek Muslims for peace and sanctuary from the tyranny of any one. It was giving the message of human liberty.
Then some thing changed. And it remains changed. The same verses were being interpreted as teaching intolerance, war, and killing of all those who would not give into the doctrines of the powerful. This clearly was a shift. This has been brought to attention by many a scholars, but the powerful have prevailed in their interpretation, of not only the Qur'Aan, but have added and continue to add their thought process, claiming it either as the words of the Prophet, or claiming it as otherwise well thought out Ijtihad. When we look at the text of the Qur'Aan we do not find most of it, although, it has become as important as Qur'Aan itself.
Recent internet explosion of knowledge, has given us a tool, to go back into the time, and to try to analyze, as to what may have been said by the people of the past. We can even interpret, thousands of year old languages now, but we refuse to analyzy the words of Qur'Aan. We rather like to stay on the "interpretation" alone, which could be anything. Because of this insistence on "interpretation" alone, even the Quranist movements have failed to have an impact on the human minds, except for those who want to believe in it.
Recent attempts to utilize all tools of decoding the words, although in its infancy, is showing a tremendous message, irrespective of the belief, whether it was dictated by our Creator or whether it was intuition to the mind of the Messanger from our Creator. I recently read the translation on this forum for Chapter 114 (Al Naas) and also at www.servantofthelight.com, where other translations, ( or so to say decoding of the Arabic script) are being attempted, and it is clear to see as to what the confusion is all about.
Instead of arguing as to who is right or wrong, or arguing as to how this Book came into being, can we join hands as a team such as those attempting to decode everything on the linguistic basis, without our own prejudices, to see as to what it was that created the biggest humanity charter, and scintific development then. Can it be just an exploratory attempt, rather than insisting on one own's undersanding as being correct. The purpose is not to prove or disprove anything. It is to arrive at the most correct decoding, so people can choose their own path intelligently, rather than being forced like today, into blind belief, and being penalised for not believing, like every religion insists or insisted on in the past. This is what our Creator wants us to do as well. Those who will choose the correct path will have a blissful life and those who dont, will be doomed for ever.
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Humanist
what the Muslim world is, isn?t what the ?muslim? world is. The Muslims today are not a true reflection of islam. Know that today what Muslims are, are basically upholding their socio-cultural context mixing it with religion and saying this is islam, over the 1500 years muslims/Muslims have done good. Maybe you only like to pick and choose historical bits.
Really, does that make any sense? Islam itself is derived from Arabic socio-cultural elements, because it`s inventor was also steeped in the culture. Clearly, this is the work of man, not God. Good people do good things, bad people do bad things. Only religions like Islam and ideologies like communism and nazism (Islam is clearly in good company) are capable of making good people do bad things.
They have choice yet they are suffering from a system. Muslim women around the world have choices. Some have better opportunities than others due to the socio-economic status of their country or their homes. In life everyone has different opportunities.
Seriously, you need to see the world a bit more. Socio economic status has nothing to do with how Saudi women live. Why don`t you take a trip down to Saudi Arabia wearing a skirt and blouse like you are allowed to wear now and see how it goes? Lets see what your choices are then.
I understand now what this website is all about. With all that has happened especially since 9/11 and with heavy scrutiny by the media, Islam is under pressure worldwide. You can say what you want about unfair or biased media coverage, the reality is that Islam is being shown up as the intolerant, backward and shallow ideology that it is. There is a worldwide reaction against Islam by the world, for the acts of the followers of Islam is driven by the fact that Islam is an extremist religion. It is extremist because it allows no compromise, no debate, no respect for those who do not follow its ways, and no freedom for those that do. You can say what you want about real Islam, what the world sees in every country which has muslims is the reality. You live in Australia, and the average Australian doesn`t want you there because of what you represent. To them, you spending time on this website is driving you closer to the day when you will blow up an Australian school or airliner. This is the reality of what is happening in the world. All this talk of true Islam cannot change what is true to the victims of 9/11 and their families, or the millions around the world who are under threat from Islamic extremism. Islam brings nothing to countries and societies in the modern world, nothing. Name me one moderate Islamic country and I will point out the problems which Islam causes. Islam involves the implementation of Shariah law, which is rejected by all right thinking humans (we hate it and all it stands for) yet the Muslims have no concern for what us non Muslims want. Islam is a selfish and arrogant religion as can be seen from the Quran. You read it before, now read it again. Why is the Quran so concerned about the unbelievers and spends so much time talking about them? there seems to be an awful lot of scripture related to unbelievers compared to the Bible.
I digress. Back to the first part. You have seen Islam being demonised around the world and desperately search for answers to defend your religion. You feel the eyes of the world on you with disdain, fear and disgust and you feel the world just doesn
t understand it. If they did, surely they would not behave in such a way. From Australia to China to the USA, there is a universal rejection of Islam and all it stands for. You believe that this is unfair and you search for ways to defend it. Unlike others of your race (you must be either an immigrant or descended of immigrants from muslim countries) who have rejected the religion to fit in better to secular australian society, you have stronger roots in your culture and Islam is a strong part of your culture (notice Islam is part of your culture, not the other way around as culture predates Islam). You feel there is a certain level of animosity towards your religion and therefore you from secular australians who want nothing to do with your religion and want it out of Australia immediately. Why do they hate your religion and not the Indian hindhus, chinese/vietnamese buddhists, black rastas? If they do hate them, its for their skin color and not their religion, unlike yours. You now spend your time finding ways to prove that your religion and therefore you have been misrepresented by hijackers who have taken over the religion and its ideals. You want to prove that your religion and therefore you are actually peaceful and tolerant. Using the logical mind you possess (only because you were fortunate enough to grow up in a western secular society which allows and encourages women to think for themselves) you believe that you can educate other muslims to think like you, to be like you. If all muslims were like you, surely the worlds muslim population would be saved and better able to integrate. Which would allow you to settle in better to australian society.What you fail to understand is that you are unique in Islam. You are a muslim yet you are brought up in a secular, modern society which owes its status to science, modernity, logic, reason, compromise and freedom which could never exist under Islam they way it does in Australia. The society which you are brought up in owes nothing to Islam and indeed defends it
s freedom from Islam every day. These ideals mentioned earlier may exist in a reduced form under Islam, but the degree to which you enjoy these ideals as an Australian is unheard of under Islam and has never been enjoyed by any muslim living in any muslim country, EVER since the days of the prophet. You believe that people have the right to choose and the freedom to do as they please as this is the right which you enjoy currently, not realising that these ideals are purely Australian and have nothing to do with Islam. You see Islam as being free and beautiful as you live in a free and beautiful society where all are able to enjoy this, even muslims. You have mistaken the joys of your life as given by the freedoms of living in a 1st world secular society as being attributable to Islam, not knowing that under Islam you could never have this. As you enjoy the freedoms of Australia, remember that the quran wants to convert the country which shelters you and allows you to be who you wish to be. And with that conversion will come the end of reason, freedom and tolerance beyond what is allowed by the quran and the crazies who draw their power from it, like the cockroaches who rule Saudi, Pakistan, Syria and all the other muslim countries around the world.All of you see the chaos, murder and hatred brought by muslims around the world over the ages and seek to distance yourself from this by arguing that your religion is different to this. You try to justify Islam
s existance as you have progressed too far, intellectually you are too developed to just believe that what the madmen are doing is right like the rest of the muslims around the world do. So you try and search for reasons how this could happen and desperate as you are, attempt to justify it as being due to the religion being hijacked and the quran not being translated properly. I see list upon list of misconceptions of Islam, progressive Islam etc. All seeking to push the blame elsewhere which is of course the human thing to do. Blame someone/something else! Yet how can it be misinterpreted after 1500 years? During this time man has been to the highest mountains, created miracles of science the likes of which were unimaginable 1500 years ago, mapped the human genome, discovered the secrets of evolution, walked on the moon and discovered algorithms which power computers. How can mankind not be able to interpret a book written 1500 years ago? Think about it. Its not rocket science after all its just...well verses. Lines and lines of rambling put into writing. What is that compared to understanding DNA? Compared to plotting a route to the moon for a rocket? Astrophysics? Why is the quran misinterpreted hmm While everything else is interpreted properly? could it be that its not possible to make sense out of it in any way? The bible has been properly interpreted, so too the torah, the writings of buddha, hindhu holy manuscripts, confucianism, all of which predate islam face no such problems. Why does your lag behind? Is it because its the worst one of all? By the way, this is what the whole world(not the brainwashed part) believes.So why hold on to the religion, why do you still believe? It`s because it has such a hold on you that you feel that you would suffocate without it. like the bubble boy, you believe that leaving the bubble will kill you , when in reality you have no reason to fear it as you can and will live better without it. How can it be a religion of peace when it was spread by the sword? There is no misconception, no wrong interpretation. We the citizens of the world have rejected this religion while affirming the freedom of all humans to believe in whatever they choose. What will you do?
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No one can wipe out religion from the minds of humans. It is how it has been for ever. Bowing to the powerful is how it started and it is how it is continued.
So the attempt to talk people out of religion is almost an implossible task.So please read my post again, the one posted just above the last post here by the humanist. The only way to show them light would be then to show them light, as I have eluded to above, rather than trying to talk the whole world out of it. Even Prophets could not talk people out of anything , except to show them the light. Qur'Aan is all about it, as is being shown by the decoding in process as eluded in my post above. If in the end it shows no light, then just leave it. But if it shows light, as it did centuries ago, by creating biggest human liberty charter, and quest for scientific knowledge, then the magic is on its way again.
So go ahead and read my post again and see what you all think.
Peace
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Humanist
Really, does that make any sense? Islam itself is derived from Arabic socio-cultural elements, because it`s inventor was also steeped in the culture. Clearly, this is the work of man, not God. Good people do good things, bad people do bad things. Only religions like Islam and ideologies like communism and nazism (Islam is clearly in good company) are capable of making good people do bad things.
If you read the Quran you would know Abraham is a ?muslim? today we have many Muslims. It?s a noun a descriptive noun, whereas the Arabic word muslim describes much more than that.
So what it means basically is a Muslim is someone, who says they follow Quran, who also attaches cultural baggage and interpretations and embeds it with islam. A muslim is different, a muslim is like Ibrahim one who submits to God, that doesn't put cultural baggage interpretations above.
Clearly you feel islam is so terrible.. so tell me, what are we doing that are bad things? Obviously you know otherwise you wouldn?t make a claim. So do share.
Seriously, you need to see the world a bit more. Socio economic status has nothing to do with how Saudi women live. Why don`t you take a trip down to Saudi Arabia wearing a skirt and blouse like you are allowed to wear now and see how it goes? Lets see what your choices are then.
Who said Saudi was Islamic? Go look up the name Saudi and its origin then tell me this crap. Just because their country follows rules that are not Islamic while claiming to be Islamic, doesn?t mean they are.
I understand now what this website is all about. With all that has happened especially since 9/11 and with heavy scrutiny by the media, Islam is under pressure worldwide. You can say what you want about unfair or biased media coverage, the reality is that Islam is being shown up as the intolerant, backward and shallow ideology that it is. There is a worldwide reaction against Islam by the world, for the acts of the followers of Islam is driven by the fact that Islam is an extremist religion. It is extremist because it allows no compromise, no debate, no respect for those who do not follow its ways, and no freedom for those that do.
No actually you don?t understand, 9/11 has nothing to do with our belief. it existed way before you were born. I don?t care about media coverage. Go read world history and see who is unfair who is intolerant, who is backward. What is so shallow in our ideology. Seriously you accept things you don?t even know are facts!
You can say what you want about real Islam, what the world sees in every country which has muslims is the reality. You live in Australia, and the average Australian doesn`t want you there because of what you represent. To them, you spending time on this website is driving you closer to the day when you will blow up an Australian school or airliner. This is the reality of what is happening in the world. All this talk of true Islam cannot change what is true to the victims of 9/11 and their families, or the millions around the world who are under threat from Islamic extremism.
Oh sorry you know reality, some mental lunatics who claim to be muslims who do things against islam simply because they have a beard shout some Arabic words ?Oh no!! look at islam!!?
I?m a human who likes to live, why the hell would I want to blow myself up? that's not even islamic! You?re ideologies is what is demented, intolerant and backward. I?ll tell you why because you don?t consider what is true all you consider is minority extremists.. oh wait that must mean they are muslim! And that must mean they are islam!!
You don?t even read facts, you don?t read the text. And when you do you make errors and you don?t even think about it. You know why, you have no interests in it. You just have a biased, stereotypical image of what you think a muslim is and you can?t fathom the fact that you have it wrong. It?s like how can it be wrong nah. Just ignore the info she says and argue another point which is also weak in it?s claim.
Islam brings nothing to countries and societies in the modern world, nothing. Name me one moderate Islamic country and I will point out the problems which Islam causes. Islam involves the implementation of Shariah law, which is rejected by all right thinking humans (we hate it and all it stands for) yet the Muslims have no concern for what us non Muslims want. Islam is a selfish and arrogant religion as can be seen from the Quran. You read it before, now read it again. Why is the Quran so concerned about the unbelievers and spends so much time talking about them? there seems to be an awful lot of scripture related to unbelievers compared to the Bible.
After you name me one ?Islamic? country that follows islam to the truth I?ll give you your answer. If you know Islamic history you?d know islam brought a lot to society today. You can choose to be ignorant and blatantly hateful. It just further shows your arrogance and ignorance.
Islam involves the implementation of shariah law? Do show me where it says that? Also what is the shariah law, do you even know what it says?
What do you non muslims want? To eradicate muslims kill them and their origins? Some great tolerance you have.
Did you know the Quran talks about ?disbelief? to the believers, as in the believers be mindful of their deeds. While you might think the content is all about you for being non muslims, the word used isn?t simply translated as ?unbelievers? the word kufr is much more than disbelief and muslims need to be aware of it because even the prophets were inspired to be aware of it, such as Solomon. You can be grateful or ungrateful, and ungratefulness is a form of kufr. But obviously you think it?s all about you!
So obviously you take the text and think $#@E! why the hell is this talking to me? How this! and how that! Yet you haven?t even grasped what the book is saying. You?re so narrow minded that you just stick to your bias understanding. Quran spends much more time about doing good, maybe you should re-read it with an open mind.
I digress. Back to the first part. You have seen Islam being demonised around the world and desperately search for answers to defend your religion. You feel the eyes of the world on you with disdain, fear and disgust and you feel the world just doesn`t understand it. If they did, surely they would not behave in such a way. From Australia to China to the USA, there is a universal rejection of Islam and all it stands for.
There has been universal acceptance also. People dunno what islam stands for, but wait you do? So tell me.
Every single person has a certain bias, even prejudice. It?s when they fail to recognise what is truth from falsehood they make big error. People don?t automatically hate me. Islam is a choice, just like people have choice to be Hindu?s, Christians, Jewish, Agnostic, Atheists etc. That?s every human given right.
I?m not trying to prove my religion, why should I? Islam has been misrepresented and you seem to only follow the misrepresented view. You said
Using the logical mind you possess (only because you were fortunate enough to grow up in a western secular society which allows and encourages women to think for themselves) you believe that you can educate other muslims to think like you, to be like you. If all muslims were like you, surely the world`s muslim population would be saved and better able to integrate. Which would allow you to settle in better to australian society.
Logic doesn?t come inherited because of being in a western society. So if Muslims were like me you?re saying I?m not so bad as a muslim? If that be the case why the big prejudice?
Also integration? We?re all integrated but to force assimilation is wrong. You make out as if muslims or so backward that they can?t even be in a society.
What you fail to understand is that you are unique in Islam. You are a muslim yet you are brought up in a secular, modern society which owes its status to science, modernity, logic, reason, compromise and freedom which could never exist under Islam they way it does in Australia.
No you fail to understand what islam is and my beliefs are not dominant in my country in a "secular modern society'. Science, logic etc existed way before. Look you?re so arrogant I can?t believe how much you have delved in your arrogance just go look at your number system; base ten then tell me muslims have no influence to society today. You are clearly so hateful you can?t see beyond your own mind.
The ideas I have are not purely Australian, what a stupid thing to say. You fail to recognise how women were treated in western societies a 100 years ago. For some people change happens quicker than others. Islamic ideologies existed before the Quran. Muslims accept and recognise that God sent scriptures before. Quran is confirming the truth of what the unmindful have forgotten, what makes it unique is that it is protected. Islam existed before Quran but you fail to comprehend what islam is! You jus keep going on about religion.
The joys and freedom area human given right Quran recognises this you don?t because you have some comprehension problems.
The rulers in countries you mention are pathetic losers. They help themselves and the superpowers before they help their own country because they are tyrants. They?re like Pharaoh and you wonder why their countries are falling apart, why they?re ?backward?. How can you expect a country to prosper if their own government is drawing them back and demeaning them? And no their governments do not represent Islam.
All of you see the chaos, murder and hatred brought by muslims around the world over the ages and seek to distance yourself from this by arguing that your religion is different to this. You try to justify Islam`s existance as you have progressed too far, intellectually you are too developed to just believe that what the madmen are doing is right like the rest of the muslims around the world do.
Don?t put beliefs in me which do not exist. Where did I say ?madman are doing right things?. Chaos existed before Muslims existed. You?re problem is you blame muslims for your problems when you?re problems have nothing to do with it.
So you try and search for reasons how this could happen and desperate as you are, attempt to justify it as being due to the religion being hijacked and the quran not being translated properly. I see list upon list of misconceptions of Islam, progressive Islam etc. All seeking to push the blame elsewhere which is of course the human thing to do. Blame someone/something else! Yet how can it be misinterpreted after 1500 years?
Blame? Look mate 1500 years ago people were arguing and today they still argue. Misconceptions have been argued before. When people get in power they can distort things. Like the countries you mentioned they distort their people their ideologies with their power.
Nothing I believe is new, my beliefs have been heard of before, 1500 years ago.
How can mankind not be able to interpret a book written 1500 years ago?
I?ll tell you why, because secterians have distorted the meaning because they have authority today because of number and power. So you have a book that isn?t interpreted justly. If you know the sectarian system of how things work you?d understand how the distort is hard to break.
I could give you an example but would you take me seriously? I really honestly doubt it. So I?m thinking why should I bother. If you genuinely want to know then I?ll tell you. but you seem to just ignore what i say act on defence not really take in what i am saying.
Why does your lag behind? Is it because it`s the worst one of all? By the way, this is what the whole world(not the brainwashed part) believes.
Classical Arabic and Arabic we know today are two different things. Like I said people in power distort things. It?s not lagged behind nor the worst of all, what makes it the worst? besides it?s there for people who ponder. Its not made for scholars to interpret it?s for us to take. So if you genuinely want the message you would seek out a way to understand it. Rather than relying on an interpreted meaning based on some guys opinion.
You?re a contradiction.
We the citizens of the world have rejected this religion while affirming the freedom of all humans to believe in whatever they choose. What will you do?
If ALL humans have the freedom to believe in whatever they choose you wouldn?t be so up tight about my beliefs of Quran.
I don?t follow religion, I take Quran as a guide just like you might take some scholarly opinion in a matter as a guide and I am given the God given right, to take this guide or to leave it. That right was given to me in the Quran, not by you or your so called western current ideologies. Quran gave me that right, if people control and subjugate others in the name of islam, their doing injustices by their guide and they will be requited with consequences of their actions.
You can stay in your belief you can choose to be ignorant, arrogant or whatever it is you want, that?s your right and frankly I don?t care because it doesn?t affect me. When it does affect me, when you do injustice by me, that?s something different all together.
So long as you realise your hatred and malice is totally demented and linked with other than islam. So long as you don?t hassle me as I don?t hassle you what is the problem? You can be whatever you want.
BTW you never answered me, where do you live?
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No he hasn
t. All he has done is quote verses which are contrary to the verses which I quoted, without addressing the central issue. Why do some verses preach war, hatred and violence while some show peace and co existance with the kafir? Why does one part contradict the other? Has this thought ever crossed your mind when reading the quran? Why is it so inconsistent and contradictory? Hes trying to prove the authenticity and integrity of verses by contradicting my verses with his verses and you think he`s given an answer? The only question it answers is how brainwashed and deluded one must be to believe that these are the word of god!This book has such contradictions because it was written by a man from his own delusions and thoughts. Whether the verses spoke of war or peace depended on what side of the bed the writer woke up on or how good the slave girl was the previous night. You believe that the quran contains the words of God? This is madness! Was God confused as to what his actual message would be? There is no message from God in this book. Of course there are some verses which speak of peace and tolerance, probably plagarised from the Torah and the Bible. Or probably written after the Kafir had been conquered and most of the population had been converted, therefore there was less need for preaching conquest. Again, all this proves is that the Quran is based on the circumstances of the time, when the prophet needed peace or war, the quran was written accordingly. Without doubt this is the work of man for if God was truly to give a message, it would be a message for the ages and not just for that particular epoch. Of course once the religion had taken hold it was never going to let go and todate there hasn
t been a force powerful enough to remove it. Read some Marx for a better understanding of how your religion like any other ideology of power would never give up its position without sufficient force to remove it. It`s time to call and end to this madness and accept that man has enough geniune knowledge to carry on without false teachings to mislead us.First of all there is nothing called conquest in the Quran.
Second where does it say fight the disbelievers? There is no such verses.
Third it seems to me you already made up your mind about what the Quran says without actualling studying it.
I know that you will quote PART of verse 9-5 without quoting the end of it. Or you will quote verse 9-28 without looking at to whom it was refering to and thats about it. I have dealt with this issue maybe a hundred times with many non Muslims and with Sunnis.
There are no verses that tells anyone to fight people because they disbelieved. There are verses that say fight those who are fighting you and if they cease then you also cease. Its also funny how you said that the "peaceful" verses were plagiarized from the Torah. You obviously have not read the Torah. So there is a huge ignorance on your part.
There are verses that says God will punish and take revenge on the disbelievers as what happened to the people of Lot and Noah and Saleh and Hud. God says he will punish the disbelievers in this world and the hereafter. Thats the only part you were correct in. But as far as we humans are concerned the Quran makes it very clear we only fight those who fight us for our faith. We don't fight anayone for their faith. God punishes, not humans.
The Quran makes it this crystal clear
18.29-31 Say, "The truth is from your Lord" Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it) for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on! As to those who believe and work righteousness, verily We shall not suffer to perish the reward of any who do a (single) righteous deed. For them will be Gardens of Eternity; beneath them rivers will flow; they will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold, and they will wear green garments of fine silk and heavy brocade They will recline therein on raised thrones. How good the recompense! How beautiful a couch to recline on!
You pick your choice. Its your choice, not ours or anybody else.
Quran is peace!
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ok bro lets get down to it. There are words and there are actions. not everything is in the quran for example how to use the toilet, how to eat with your mouth closed, etc. These are seen in the actions of the followers and leaders of the religion. The prophet himself was a conquerer. He did not peacefully spread his religion in the way jesus did, over hundreds of years. Within 20 years, most of the middle east had been conquered, slaughtered or converted. This is the truth and no amount of revisionism on your part can change that. islam was brought into this world not through noble sacrifice like christianity or suffering like the buddha, it was brought it with fire and the sword. You can say it
s not in the quran (it blatantly is) but the prophet himself kept kafirs wives and children as his own sex slaves, unless further revisionism is going to say he didn`t.You`re interpretation is clouded by the need to justify you religion as peaceful and tolerant as a result of global reaction against it. Who is to say your interpretation is more correct that Osama bin laden or any one of the ayatollahs? is your scripture that clear that there can be no doubt? Perhaps it is you who is wrong and the madmen who have spent lifetimes studying and interpreting it who are correct? The world has caught up with this religion and book and has found out for themselves. even the dutch who would tolerate all kinds of warped practices and are among the most permissive people in the world have had it with the religion which stands for peace. Even the swiss who are permanently neutral and accept nazi gold have had it with the religion which stands for peace. Its time for all right thinking people to consider the facts and reevaluate their position. at the very least, understand why people like me reject what you preach, for i can easily understand your position. i was once roman catholic and brainwashed almost as bad as you are.
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ok bro lets get down to it. There are words and there are actions. not everything is in the quran for example how to use the toilet, how to eat with your mouth closed, etc. These are seen in the actions of the followers and leaders of the religion. The prophet himself was a conquerer. He did not peacefully spread his religion in the way jesus did, over hundreds of years. Within 20 years, most of the middle east had been conquered, slaughtered or converted. This is the truth and no amount of revisionism on your part can change that. islam was brought into this world not through noble sacrifice like christianity or suffering like the buddha, it was brought it with fire and the sword. You can say it
s not in the quran (it blatantly is) but the prophet himself kept kafirs wives and children as his own sex slaves, unless further revisionism is going to say he didn`t.You`re interpretation is clouded by the need to justify you religion as peaceful and tolerant as a result of global reaction against it. Who is to say your interpretation is more correct that Osama bin laden or any one of the ayatollahs? is your scripture that clear that there can be no doubt? Perhaps it is you who is wrong and the madmen who have spent lifetimes studying and interpreting it who are correct? The world has caught up with this religion and book and has found out for themselves. even the dutch who would tolerate all kinds of warped practices and are among the most permissive people in the world have had it with the religion which stands for peace. Even the swiss who are permanently neutral and accept nazi gold have had it with the religion which stands for peace. Its time for all right thinking people to consider the facts and reevaluate their position. at the very least, understand why people like me reject what you preach, for i can easily understand your position. i was once roman catholic and brainwashed almost as bad as you are.
Look, what does the Quran has to do with globilization? The Quran came down 14 centuries ago. I am just stating what the Quran says which often is not what Sunnism and Shiasm preach and most Muslims fall under these two categories like most jews follow the Pharisaic Judaism that Jesus fought against and most Christians follow the Trintarian Christianity followed by the Catholic and Protestant sect. So to me I don't really see the difference here. One left the OT for their own traditions(read Mark 7), the other introduced a theology in the 3rd century of Christianity known as the Trinity and made Jesus divine, the third followed the Jews way and tossed the Quran behind their backs and followed their own tradition.
Strange thing about all this is Western Academicians themselves agree with the fabrication of Sunnism and Shiasm. But after 9-11 the West suddenly started giving authority to Sunnism and Shiasm and their traditions because it is easier to attack and criticize than the Quran.
So let the Western nations do some soul searching THEN go the Muslims and lecture them. Meanwhile no Muslims will pay attention to you because of your lack of credibility. Thats why the Bin Laden's are operating unabated. The Muslims follow the same Islam as he does, so they can't refute and tell him what his doing is wrong. On the other side the West is more bloodier than Bin Laden and so they can't tell him what your doing is wrong. So the Bin Laden's are going nowehere.
But I can go to Bin Laden and tell him to his face "what your doing is not Islam". There is nothing Bin Laden can do to refute me. Nothing.
Finally, no I don't believe Muhammad led any conquest. Thats not his job description in the Quran. I already told you what his job description and job responsibility are. He is a preacher and not a soldier. If he fought its because the pagans forced him to. The same pagans who brought us the Islamic Sects. The Pagans of Mecca.
His companions, maybe. I don't have credible historic information and the companions era is post Quranic. Anyways their era don't carry any authority for the Quranist because they are post Quranic.
Quran is peace and the choice of faith or not is yours. Muhamad was given the Quran to warn the disbelievrs of God's punishment in this world and hereafter and bring the good news to the believers of God of the God has in store for them in this life and the hereafter.
And what do you know about the day of Judgement? Thats a major Quranic quotation.
You and only you make that choice.
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Look, what does the Quran has to do with globilization? The Quran came down 14 centuries ago. I am just stating what the Quran says which often is not what Sunnism and Shiasm preach and most Muslims fall under these two categories like most jews follow the Pharisaic Judaism that Jesus fought against and most Christians follow the Trintarian Christianity followed by the Catholic and Protestant sect. So to me I don't really see the difference here. One left the OT for their own traditions(read Mark 7), the other introduced a theology in the 3rd century of Christianity known as the Trinity and made Jesus divine, the third followed the Jews way and tossed the Quran behind their backs and followed their own tradition.
What does this have to do with anything? Who cares really about the Christians? Christianity today is unrecognisable from the spider which sucked on the soul of humanity hundreds of years ago. Christianity has been defeated by the renaissance and revolutions througout Europe which created a change in how the church operates. There is clear separation between church and state and no state would act based on scripture as right thinking members of society would never allow it. That`s what happens when science and evolution uncover fantasy tales for what they are, fantasy. The quran is due for a renaissance and until it comes ignorance and the dark ages will continue throughout the muslim world. The only free muslims are those who live in kafir countries.
Strange thing about all this is Western Academicians themselves agree with the fabrication of Sunnism and Shiasm. But after 9-11 the West suddenly started giving authority to Sunnism and Shiasm and their traditions because it is easier to attack and criticize than the Quran.
So let the Western nations do some soul searching THEN go the Muslims and lecture them. Meanwhile no Muslims will pay attention to you because of your lack of credibility. Thats why the Bin Laden's are operating unabated. The Muslims follow the same Islam as he does, so they can't refute and tell him what his doing is wrong. On the other side the West is more bloodier than Bin Laden and so they can't tell him what your doing is wrong. So the Bin Laden's are going nowehere.
But I can go to Bin Laden and tell him to his face "what your doing is not Islam". There is nothing Bin Laden can do to refute me. Nothing.
I suspect Bin Laden would use the quranic verses which call for war (oh sorry self defence) to destroy you and it would be justified in his mind, as what you are saying is justified in your mind. Who is right and who is wrong? how dare you presume to have a better understanding/interpretation of the quran than men like Bin Laden, Ayatollah Khomeni and Mullah Omar who have devoted their entire lives to quranic studies? What makes your interpretation better than theirs? You are mad to think he can`t refute you. A debate between him and you would probably result in you leaving your comfy home to live in Afghanistan/Pakistan to serve your duty defending your brothers against the kafir, as you should. Bin Laden is acting in self defense of muslims attacked by kafir. There are verses which can be interpreted (correctly or not depending on your point of view) legitimising his actions and you are a fool to think otherwise. scripture is so unclear and uncertain as to what it means that 1500 years after it was first introduced, people are still debating the actual meaning. As I have said before, humans who have mapped the human genome and DNA, uncovered the secrets of microbiology, walked on the moon and split the atom are unable to come to a clear agreement on 1500 year old scripture. Scripture! what nonsense compared to the beauty of mankinds other achievements to say that it could be misinterpreted when man clearly is capable of easily interpreting something so simple. You must accept as a minimum that there is no clear meaning behind the scripture, that there is only interpretations and bin ladens interpretation is at least as valid, if not more so (in my interpretation) than yours.
Finally, no I don't believe Muhammad led any conquest. Thats not his job description in the Quran. I already told you what his job description and job responsibility are. He is a preacher and not a soldier. If he fought its because the pagans forced him to. The same pagans who brought us the Islamic Sects. The Pagans of Mecca.
Then you are a revisionist and you are ignoring clearly documented historical facts. You probably don`t think the holocaust happened either.
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What does this have to do with anything? Who cares really about the Christians? Christianity today is unrecognisable from the spider which sucked on the soul of humanity hundreds of years ago. Christianity has been defeated by the renaissance and revolutions througout Europe which created a change in how the church operates. There is clear separation between church and state and no state would act based on scripture as right thinking members of society would never allow it. That`s what happens when science and evolution uncover fantasy tales for what they are, fantasy. The quran is due for a renaissance and until it comes ignorance and the dark ages will continue throughout the muslim world. The only free muslims are those who live in kafir countries.
I suspect Bin Laden would use the quranic verses which call for war (oh sorry self defence) to destroy you and it would be justified in his mind, as what you are saying is justified in your mind. Who is right and who is wrong? how dare you presume to have a better understanding/interpretation of the quran than men like Bin Laden, Ayatollah Khomeni and Mullah Omar who have devoted their entire lives to quranic studies? What makes your interpretation better than theirs? You are mad to think he can`t refute you. A debate between him and you would probably result in you leaving your comfy home to live in Afghanistan/Pakistan to serve your duty defending your brothers against the kafir, as you should. Bin Laden is acting in self defense of muslims attacked by kafir. There are verses which can be interpreted (correctly or not depending on your point of view) legitimising his actions and you are a fool to think otherwise. scripture is so unclear and uncertain as to what it means that 1500 years after it was first introduced, people are still debating the actual meaning. As I have said before, humans who have mapped the human genome and DNA, uncovered the secrets of microbiology, walked on the moon and split the atom are unable to come to a clear agreement on 1500 year old scripture. Scripture! what nonsense compared to the beauty of mankinds other achievements to say that it could be misinterpreted when man clearly is capable of easily interpreting something so simple. You must accept as a minimum that there is no clear meaning behind the scripture, that there is only interpretations and bin ladens interpretation is at least as valid, if not more so (in my interpretation) than yours.
Then you are a revisionist and you are ignoring clearly documented historical facts. You probably don`t think the holocaust happened either.
The problem is that the Bin Laden and the Khomeinis believe the Quran is a Book to be recited and maybe memorized. They don't believe you take your Islam form the Quran. Just like Jews take their Judaism from the Talmud.
I am taking my Islam from the Quran. Thats why we have different interpretations. Offensive Jihad is in the books of hadiths. Just like Jewish supremacism and non Jews dehumanizing is from their oral traditions. At least thats how I see it.
Looks like you came here and thought you can attack. Did not know who we are and what is the Quran. So now you know.
As far as the Holocaust. I don't deny that Hitler killed many Jews, but more than 60 million died in WW2. I just don't believe the Holocaust gives Jews any priveleges over other humans. Maybe you do, but I don't. Plus you don't sound like a humanist. Just a typical Islam basher who can't believe that the Quran is what it is.
Why don't you go to a Sunni or Shia website. We follow something else here.
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The problem is that the Bin Laden and the Khomeinis believe the Quran is a Book to be recited and maybe memorized. They don't believe you take your Islam form the Quran. Just like Jews take their Judaism from the Talmud.
I am taking my Islam from the Quran. Thats why we have different interpretations. Offensive Jihad is in the books of hadiths. Just like Jewish supremacism and non Jews dehumanizing is from their oral traditions. At least thats how I see it.
Looks like you came here and thought you can attack. Did not know who we are and what is the Quran. So now you know.
As far as the Holocaust. I don't deny that Hitler killed many Jews, but more than 60 million died in WW2. I just don't believe the Holocaust gives Jews any priveleges over other humans. Maybe you do, but I don't. Plus you don't sound like a humanist. Just a typical Islam basher who can't believe that the Quran is what it is.
Why don't you go to a Sunni or Shia website. We follow something else here.
bravo
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You fail to see that its just a matter of interpretation. The quran can be interpreted to allow war, slavery, violence and persecution very easily as proven over the last 1500 years. I point out irrefutable facts, history as recorded by the ages and the current situation in muslim countries, while what you are arguing is conjecture at best. You think only you and your group of people know the real quran but you are wrong. The interpretation of the extremists is as legitimate as yours. Theirs is an extreme interpretation while yours may be moderate yet nobody can say either is right or wrong as it is a matter of understanding something which is so deeply flawed. Anyway, this is a dead end since you can`t accept the possibility that there are legitimate interpretations other than yours (funny considering how much you have in common with the extremists then). You believe the quran is the truth, I would test it against modern science.
1526 And We did certainly create man out of clay from an altered black mud.
1528 And , when your Lord said to the angels, "I will create a human being out of clay from an altered black mud.
1529 And when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My soul, then fall down to him in prostration."
719 And "O Adam, dwell, you and your wife, in Paradise and eat from wherever you will but do not approach this tree, lest you be among the wrongdoers."
What about evolution? What about the theory of evolution as disovered by Charles Darwin (pbuh) hail ? Darwin discovered, and this has been proven, that man evolved from an ape like species into what we are today. Your quran states that god created man. god did not create man as man evolved from an already existing species. Man already existed, just not in the form which we have today. What is your answer to this?
Of course there are muslims who try to counter this with alternative interpretations of these verses. Which only further proves that scripture is a matter of interpretation and nothing can be taken literally, rendering it a very confusing and confused piece of work. I am a humanist because I believe in the dignity and sanctity of human life. I belive that works like the quran and bible confuse mankind and drive him to do evil deeds while mistakenly believing they are doing good. Any good which comes from scripture could easily be obtained from other sources. The quran and bible are outdated and useless in the modern context, a relic of an ancient era when man was far less advanced and needed fantasy to make sense of a dark and confusing world. continued reliance and devotion to these books result in the conflict and retardation of mind and soul which we see throughout the world.
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Humanist
You fail to see that its just a matter of interpretation. The quran can be interpreted to allow war, slavery, violence and persecution very easily as proven over the last 1500 years.
Matters of interpretation need proof, you cannot interpret something without justification. So these peoples interpretation is bias.
What about evolution? Whats so great about Charles Darwin? There are lots of theories against him. Tell me other than humans what species evolved from one into another? Evolution isnt totally flawed otherwise wed all look the same. Our genetics forms us and changes us, we evolve. Though I personal disagree in the way youre seeing it.
Why are our reproductive systems different than the ape ancestry? Isnt this a flaw in the so called evolution of men? What about natural selection? if humans evolved from apes why do apes still exist theyd be wiped out if we evolved from them.
Tell me what benefit do you get in apparently knowing you were an ape? If you believe you were an ape thats no problem but maybe you should consider renaming your Humanist nick into Apeman, thatll better fit you.
Dignity of humans? Equating them to apes?
You never told me what were the evil deeds that we muslims are driven too?
Modern contexts learnt from the ancient era, without them theyd never encompass what they know today.
BTW what are you doing here? And quit your evasiveness and preaching. None of us are like you so what is your point? That you disagree with Quran? We get that already.
Another thing Mr evasive I told you to look at the site, you said you did and didnt understand things so why dont you discuss that in light of so called verses you read? Like I mentioned before, you dont genuinely want to see your misconstrued opinion. You dont wanna hear it, all you wanna do is except some crap you think is islam and argue. Well frankly Ive had enough of your ignorant egoistic arguments. When you start taking things seriously Ill consider replying
Well Apeman enjoy the human world, its way above the ape one.
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Humanist
Matters of interpretation need proof, you cannot interpret something without justification. So these peoples interpretation is bias.
What about evolution? What?s so great about Charles Darwin? There are lots of theories against him. Tell me other than humans what species evolved from one into another? ?Evolution? isn?t totally flawed otherwise we?d all look the same. Our genetics forms us and changes us, we evolve. Though I personal disagree in the way you?re seeing it.
Why are our reproductive systems different than the ape ancestry? Isn?t this a flaw in the so called evolution of men? What about natural selection? if humans evolved from apes why do apes still exist they?d be wiped out if we evolved from them.
Tell me what benefit do you get in apparently knowing you were an ape? If you believe you were an ape that?s no problem but maybe you should consider renaming your Humanist nick into Apeman, that?ll better fit you.
Dignity of humans? Equating them to apes?
You never told me what were the evil deeds that we muslims are driven too?
Modern contexts learnt from the ancient era, without them they?d never encompass what they know today.
BTW what are you doing here? And quit your evasiveness and preaching. None of us are like you so what is your point? That you disagree with Quran? We get that already.
Another thing Mr evasive I told you to look at the site, you said you did and didn?t understand things so why don?t you discuss that in light of so called verses you read? Like I mentioned before, you don?t genuinely want to see your misconstrued opinion. You don?t wanna hear it, all you wanna do is except some crap you think is islam and argue. Well frankly I?ve had enough of your ignorant egoistic arguments. When you start taking things seriously I?ll consider replying
Well Apeman enjoy the human world, it?s way above the ape one.
Apeman??? rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl
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Humanist
Matters of interpretation need proof, you cannot interpret something without justification. So these peoples interpretation is bias.
Rubbish. Interpretation of scripture which is vague and archaic is easily done to suit whatever your needs are. There is no clear meaning for the scripture and bin laden etc are justified in doing such based on your scripture. If is outdated, backward and needs updating which can never happen. Therefore, like everything else which cannot change, it belongs in the library, museum or rubbish heap.
What about evolution? What?s so great about Charles Darwin? There are lots of theories against him. Tell me other than humans what species evolved from one into another? ?Evolution? isn?t totally flawed otherwise we?d all look the same. Our genetics forms us and changes us, we evolve. Though I personal disagree in the way you?re seeing it.
Why are our reproductive systems different than the ape ancestry? Isn?t this a flaw in the so called evolution of men? What about natural selection? if humans evolved from apes why do apes still exist they?d be wiped out if we evolved from them.
What total ignorance from somebody brought up in a western country. How closed is your mind and how brainwashed are you to reject completely the evidence and knowledge? We did not evolve from apes. We evolved from an APE LIKE species. Apes are from the same family tree hence the similarities. perhaps if you read my post rather then getting your knickers up in a twist everytime I post something maybe you would understand better. You know scripture while you are totally ignorant of the origin of the species.
Tell me what benefit do you get in apparently knowing you were an ape? If you believe you were an ape that?s no problem but maybe you should consider renaming your Humanist nick into Apeman, that?ll better fit you.
So, we should only say and do things which benefit us? What about the small matter of the truth? I believe that my ancestors were a less evolved species of man who evolved into what we are today, inventing allah and the quran along the way during his more ignorant and fearfull days to explain when he did not know about the world. Just like adam and eve, this has all been proven wrong, and now is the time to reject teachings disproved by science and the supremecy of man.
Dignity of humans? Equating them to apes?
So what I have no problem saying that mankind was not always living in buildings, able to use the internet, ate cooked food and use toilet paper to wipe his ass. How do you think humans lived 000
s of years ago, before civilization? How do you think the abbos in your country lived, how different is that to apes? The coming of civilization lifted us above the other species, discoveries and progress made man the alpha on the planet, not the quran. We were doing fine before the quran came along and we will be doing fine long after its gone.What dignitiy to women enjoy in the muslim world? What dignity do people forced to believe in what you believe in enjoy? What dignity does the mind shackled by outdated and irrelevant scripture enjoy?
BTW what are you doing here? And quit your evasiveness and preaching. None of us are like you so what is your point? That you disagree with Quran? We get that already.
Another thing Mr evasive I told you to look at the site, you said you did and didn?t understand things so why don?t you discuss that in light of so called verses you read? Like I mentioned before, you don?t genuinely want to see your misconstrued opinion. You don?t wanna hear it, all you wanna do is except some crap you think is islam and argue. Well frankly I?ve had enough of your ignorant egoistic arguments. When you start taking things seriously I?ll consider replying
I have already stated I wanted to know how an intelligent mind could accept false teachings in the era of knowledge and information. How am I preaching by putting my points accross? I just want to understand why you believe what you believe in? Based on your replies, its clear to see that a portion of the mind is closed off to anything which threatens your simple beliefs. anything which is contra to your beliefs is rejected out of hand without any consideration. Clearly 1500 years of brainwash from generation to generation is hard to let go off, and forms part of your psyche. I have quoted numerous verses throughout these last 6 pages perhaps you might want to reconsider your viewpoint? Why not answer those?
How easy to label as ignorant and egoistic something which is not within your value system. Tell me, does the freedom of speech and thought not apply to australian muslims?
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Humanist
Rubbish. Interpretation of scripture which is vague and archaic is easily done to suit whatever your needs are. There is no clear meaning for the scripture and bin laden etc are justified in doing such based on your scripture. If is outdated, backward and needs updating which can never happen. Therefore, like everything else which cannot change, it belongs in the library, museum or rubbish heap.
No interpretation of scripture is not always vague. Quran describes how it?s written allegorically, even clearly defined (37)
The fact that you recognise people use scripture to interpret things how they like shows how human error can come into play by following wishes and whims.
?Cannot change?? what is it that Quran restricts you from changing? What kind of change are you indicating? Quran advises those who take heed to verify knowledge, to be logical to search for truth. It implores science. So what exactly are you on about?
I mentioned ape ancestry, even in the west people disagree with Darwin. I will admit I have limited knowledge on this matter. I don?t believe it is a very logical argument.. it?s something I could look into though I have no interest in it. you can believe as you like. Why is it a need to know the origins of species? What is the origins of ape ancestry? Seeming you have knowledge on this matter do share.
We should do what benefits us, why not? Matters of truth benefit us. You haven?t proved anything, you?ve just shared your bias opinion and hatred towards Quran and muslims.
So what I have no problem saying that mankind was not always living in buildings, able to use the internet, ate cooked food and use toilet paper to wipe his ass. How do you think humans lived 000
s of years ago, before civilization? How do you think the abbos in your country lived, how different is that to apes? The coming of civilization lifted us above the other species, discoveries and progress made man the alpha on the planet, not the quran. We were doing fine before the quran came along and we will be doing fine long after its gone.There is a difference in recognising technology and recognising mankind as a different species or linking with a species. Technology has nothing to do with biology.
What is "fine"? Quran came along later, true but islam existed way before Quran. Quran is confirming the past and what we need to know.
What dignitiy to women enjoy in the muslim world? What dignity do people forced to believe in what you believe in enjoy? What dignity does the mind shackled by outdated and irrelevant scripture enjoy?
Again you fail to read. Who is forcing anyone to believe in what I believe? People can believe as they wish. As I said earlier if they?re in countries or in households where they are subjugated that?s oppression and not islam. Do you see me saying you must be muslim? If you don?t want to be that?s your choice. Right? So why are you arguing?
I enjoy much dignity, little do you know. I?m not devalued as a muslim I?m not sure why you are so concerned as if to imply you have a better life than me for simply being non-muslim or male, how pathetic, sexist even discriminatory.
I have already stated I wanted to know how an intelligent mind could accept false teachings in the era of knowledge and information. How am I preaching by putting my points accross? I just want to understand why you believe what you believe in? Based on your replies, its clear to see that a portion of the mind is closed off to anything which threatens your simple beliefs. anything which is contra to your beliefs is rejected out of hand without any consideration. Clearly 1500 years of brainwash from generation to generation is hard to let go off, and forms part of your psyche.
What are the false teachings? I?m not accepting false teachings. Quran is for every era and knowledge is something which should be sort by everyone. I believe in what I believe because it?s unique, it makes sense, it?s logical and the book allows me to verify knowledge, it?s a guide and helps me reflect on myself and improve.
I don?t have to follow Quran but I choose because i believe in it. I am yet to meet someone who can genuinely prove it wrong or bad or any of that. Most people like yourself tend to take the sectarian approach or mention things as Islamic which really aren?t. the arguments are weak and the debate is pretty useless because they don?t want to recognise the others views but stick to their misconstrued understanding and yeh their misconstrued understanding is very wrong and illogical. But how can you argue with a wall?
I have quoted numerous verses throughout these last 6 pages perhaps you might want to reconsider your viewpoint? Why not answer those?
I didn?t read all your responses. I answered the verses you posed to me, you had no response to them you just kept going on to another argument. Maybe if you actually proved your points and made your arguments clear it would be easier. Besides such points should be argued in the right threads. You?re totally derailing your own topic.
How easy to label as ignorant and egoistic something which is not within your value system. Tell me, does the freedom of speech and thought not apply to australian muslims?
I label what I perceive and sometimes one can be in error. Freedom of speech exists to a certain degree. you have said what you have liked just as i have.
you still continue to be evasive, where do you live? What country? I?m curious because you have a biased understanding of muslims/quran/islam and you seem to imply you?re western or some sort of intellectual so I?m guessing your own sociocultural background is really affecting your judgement. But that?s ok no one is perfect maybe one day you?ll swallow your pride and actually consider what people here are saying. Forget about the need of the Quran but rather focus on the content.
So what do you believe and why is that better than Quran? Enlighten us with your wisdom because obviously you seem to think our intellect is clouded
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@ Sarah
Why is it a need to know the origins of species?
2920 Say, "Roam the earth and observe how He initiated the creation. Then God will establish the final design. God has power over all things."
@ "Humanist"
Tell me, does this go against what modern sciences teaches?
2445 God created every moving creature from water. Some of them move on their bellies, some walk on two legs, and some walk on four. God creates whatever He wills. God has power over all things.
2130 Did those who reject not see that the heavens and the earth were one mass and We tore them apart? That We made from the water everything that lives. Will they not acknowledge?
5147 We constructed the universe with might, and, certainly, We are expanding it.
7114 ...He created you in stages.
2133 He is the One who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, each swimming in an orbit.
These facts were written in The Quran in the 7th century. Only many, many years later did Europeans/Americans/etc. find out about these things.
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Amr ibn Hishm (Abu Jahl) (died March 17, 624) (Arabic ‎, better known as Abu Jahl, was one of the Meccan leaders, known for his hostility against the Muslims.
Abu Jahl was the bitterest opponent against the budding monotheistic religion and thus his belligerent stance earned him the name Ab Jahl the Father of Ignorance
He disliked Muhammad and would at any opportunity rebuke and publicly humiliate him. -
Peace,
754 fingerprints bar-code
http//www.google.com/images?hl=en&sa=1&q=fingerprints&aq=0&oq=finger&aqi=g10&start=0Human composition mostly
Mineral/clay %
Oxygen 65
Carbon 18.5
Hydrogen 9.5
Nitrogen 3.3
Calcium 1.5
Phosphorus 1
Potassium 0.35
Sulfur 0.25
Chlorine 0.15
Sodium 0.15
Magnesium 0.05
Silicon 0.05Total 99.8
DNA Replication
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jtmOZaIvS0Therefore, the assumption is the natural elements formed themselves by themselves into 4-bit chemical programmed machines by rubbing over time to one day "awake" call themselves humanists and other pseudonyms as NunHolidayPseudoEidRex -- interesting indeed!