Quran inheritance mistake
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Peace Eid,
Peace mmouhammad,
father, brother is unsolvable because father cannot inherit with a sibling.
why not, where in the Quran it said that can not be?
mother, 2 sisters leaves 0 to give the father or the poor.
mother 1/6; 2 sisters 2/35/6 = remainder to the relatives, orphans and needy
Mother 1/6, father 1/6; 2 sisters 2/34/6 remainder = 1/3*4/6 remainder to the relatives, orphans and needy1/3 mother + 2/3 sisters = 1
mother 1/6; 2 sisters 2/3*5/6 = remainder to the relatives, orphans and needy
Yes simple, no ambiguity, and the numbers have to equate perfectly without remainders.
why it has to be w/o remainder, where does it say that?
Peace
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Peace mmouhammad,
why not, where in the Quran it said that can not be?
father, brother; you gave no answer how to distribute to each or to the poor.
mother 1/6; 2 sisters 2/3*5/6 = remainder to the relatives, orphans and needy
2/3 in 4176 is Kalala case; is this a Kalala case with the mother alive?
Mother 1/6, father 1/6; 2 sisters 2/34/6 remainder = 1/34/6 remainder to the relatives, orphans and needy
Same as above, not Kalala case and Qur'an...
Fa?in ELSE IF was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3
1/3 mother + 2/3 father (2 sisters get nothing)
why it has to be w/o remainder, where does it say that?
wife, sister 1/4 + 1/2*1/2 = 1/2 too little; with half unallocated.
Never a case with remainder; that is a contradiction obvious with only parents (1/3 + 2/3 = 1)
Everyone's shares are exactly distributed according to Qur'an detailed in prior post...
Peace all -
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411 God directs you in your CHILDREN, to the male equal share the two females,
so if they are women (daughters) over two, so for them two thirds what he left,
and if she was one, so for her the half?A precise equation is given above revolving around the # of females; easy to visualize.
Here is the diagram of ratio distribution for CHILDREN?
http//i42.tinypic.com/2v9vo89.jpg
Females to males (daughters sons) ratio distributions
1m 2m_ 3m___ 4m
1f___ 11___ 11___ 11___ 11
2f___ 12___ 11___ 12___ 12
3f___ 21___ 21___ 11___ 21
4f___ 21___ 12___ 21___ 11
When there is an equal # of boys and girls, they share equally with a ratio 11
The above is to my understanding without contradictions and as with any topic is an exercise in logic teaching how to read Qur'an, cross-reference, etc., if it contradicts then it's our understanding at error and if you disagree with the distributions, write a will as God commands and God knows best.
The above is all wrong. Cannot resolve the contradiction with identical language used in 411 and 4176
- to the male - alike - fortune - the two females
411 ABOVE TWO means two or more since two is mentioned
4176 IF TWO means if at least two are present otherwise the case for 3 or more is unknownTherefore, the girls are alone (1/2 or 2/3) in both verses else if mixed each male gets twice that of each female.
Algebra has to be used to keep the ratios given proportionate.
OK all done here.
Peace all.
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Makes sense.
BTW, did you forget your password again or why did you change your name again? -
The above is all wrong. Cannot resolve the contradiction with identical language used in 411 and 4176
- to the male - alike - fortune - the two females
411 ABOVE TWO means two or more since two is mentioned
4176 IF TWO means if at least two are present otherwise the case for 3 or more is unknownTherefore, the girls are alone (1/2 or 2/3) in both verses else if mixed each male gets twice that of each female.
Algebra has to be used to keep the ratios given proportionate.
OK all done here.
Peace all.
The whole of the two ayas are NOT similarly formulated. There are very noticeable differences.
This point has been raised before in the thread.
Salaam
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Peace,
The whole of the two ayas are NOT similarly formulated. There are very noticeable differences.
This point has been raised before in the thread.
Salaam
Yes, saw it now so clearly obvious and precisely stated;
the one sister 1/2 or if they are two 2/3 is the case with no brothers in 4176
Else if mixed (like it says) then 21 male to female ratio as traditionally observed while 411 revolves around #of females.he directs you God in your CHILDREN
to the male equal luck the two females
Fa?in ELSE IF they are women Fawqa/above two, so for them two thirds what left/M Taraka,
Wa ?In AND IF she was one, so for her the half
and to his parents, to each one from them the sixth from what left/Mimm Taraka, if for him was a child
Fa?in ELSE IF was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the third,
Fa?in ELSE IF brethren/Ikhwatun were for him, so to his mother the sixthand for you half what left/M Taraka your wives/Azwjukum, if is not for them a child,
Fa?in ELSE IF was for them a child, so for you the quarter from what they left/Mimm Tarakna from after a bequest/will
and for them the quarter from what you left/Mimm Taraktum, if was not for you a child,
Fa?in ELSE IF was for you a child, so for them the eight from what you left/Mimm Taraktum from after a bequest/will
Wa ?In AND IF was a Rajulun/man to be inherited Kallatan or a woman-spouse/'AwAmra'atun, and for him a brother, or a sister, so for each one from them the sixth,
Fa?in ELSE IF they were more than that, so they are partners in the thirdThey ask your clarification, say "God decrees in Al-Kallati, if human died/'Ini Amru'uun Halaka, not for him a child,
and for him a sister, so for her half what left/M Taraka, and he inherits her if was not for her a child,
Fa?in ELSE IF they were two, so to them (F) the two thirds from what left/Mimm Taraka,
Wa ?In AND IF they were brethren men and women
so to the male equal luck the two females,
God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with everything knowledgeable. -
Salam, Peace all,
can you please help with simple examples.
Example 1
remains only one spouse with 1 boy and 1 girlsExample 2
remains only one spouse with 1 boy and 2 girlsExample 3
remains only one spouse with 1 boy and 3 girlsExample 4
remains only one spouse with 4 boys and 4 girlsPeace
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Peace herbman,
can you please help with simple examples.
Example 1
remains only one spouse with 1 boy and 1 girlsExample 2
remains only one spouse with 1 boy and 2 girlsExample 3
remains only one spouse with 1 boy and 3 girlsExample 4
remains only one spouse with 4 boys and 4 girlsUse following exactly as stated...
411
He directs you God in your CHILDREN
to the male equal luck the two girls
ELSE IF they are girls Fawqa/above two, so for them two thirds what left,
AND IF she was one, so for her the half412
and for you half what left your wives/Azwjukum, if is not for them a child,
ELSE IF was for them a child, so for you the quarter from what they left from after a bequest/will
and for them the quarter from what you left, if was not for you a child,
ELSE IF was for you a child, so for them the eight from what you left from after a bequest/willUsing husband as spouse (remember, for children it revolves around the #of females)...
Example 1 remains only one spouse with 1 boy and 1 girl
1 - 1/4 husband = 3/4 Children (AND IF she was one, so for her the half )http//www.mathcracker.com/piechartimage.php?data=2/8,%203/8,%203/8&cat=husband,%201%20boy,%201%20girl
Example 2 remains only one spouse with 1 boy and 2 girls
1 - 1/4 husband = 3/4 Children ( to the male equal luck the two girls)http//www.mathcracker.com/piechartimage.php?data=2/8,%203/8,%203/8&cat=husband,%201%20boy,%202%20girls
Example 3 remains only one spouse with 1 boy and 3 girls
1 - 1/4 husband = 3/4 Children (ELSE IF they are girls Fawqa/above two, so for them two thirds what left)http//www.mathcracker.com/piechartimage.php?data=1/4,%201/4,%202/4&cat=husband,%201%20boy,%203%20girls
Example 4 remains only one spouse with 4 boys and 4 girls
1 - 1/4 husband = 3/4 Children (ELSE IF they are girls Fawqa/above two, so for them two thirds what left)http//www.mathcracker.com/piechartimage.php?data=3/12,%203/12,%206/12&cat=husband,%204%20boys,%204%20girls
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Peace herbman,
Only change it's now 1/8 for the wife and 7/8 for the children divided with same proportions as above...
Example 1 remains only one spouse with 1 boy and 1 girl
1 - 1/8 wife = 7/8 Children (AND IF she was one, so for her the half)http//www.mathcracker.com/piechartimage.php?data=2/16,%207/16,%207/16&cat=wife,%20boy,%20girl
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Salaam
You guys may have discussed this is in the thread already but here it goes anyway.http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10927.0
Bro Ahmed Bagat gives a good response in Reply #4. He basically says...
If you take the verse literally there is no scenario that discusses a parents or wifes sum with more than one child. Yet people assume that they have the flexibility to say the scenario applies to parents say if they have more than one child. This means it is quite easy to justify reproportionalization in complicated situations since the injuctions themselves are left a little open to reflection. -
Peace,
Salaam
You guys may have discussed this is in the thread already but here it goes anyway.http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10927.0
Bro Ahmed Bagat gives a good response in Reply #4. He basically says...
If you take the verse literally there is no scenario that discusses a parents or wifes sum with more than one child. Yet people assume that they have the flexibility to say the scenario applies to parents say if they have more than one child. This means it is quite easy to justify reproportionalization in complicated situations since the injuctions themselves are left a little open to reflection.Ykumu Allhu F 'Awldikum Lildhdhakari Mithlu a??i Al-'Unthayayni
He directs you God in your CHILDREN (plural possessive pronoun) ? to the male equal fortune the two femalesAlso want to link these two threads with final summary and template below for future reference...
As already stated, for a sole inheritor there is no need for inheritance ruling, and algebra cannot be applied in all cases. E.g. sole inheritor father, mother, son, sister, or brother ? either unstated or fixed value.
Using algebra, Kalala can be anyone with any shortfall or excess normalized or fixed. Example one can conjecture Kalala means a person under 4 feet tall, someone with blonde hair or whatever?
1 ? 1/6x father ? 1/6x mother - 1/4x wife ? 1/3 siblings ? 2/3x daughters = 0
1 = 2/12x + 2/12x + 3/12x + 4/12x + 8/12x; 1 = 19/12x; x = 12/19
1/612/19 = 2/19 father
1/612/19 = 2/19 mother
1/412/19 = 3/19 wife
1/312/19 = 4/19 siblings
2/3*12/19 = 8/19 daughters
Total of distributions = 1The phrase for => 2 (i.e. presence of two or more) is given as?
4176 Fa?in Knat Athnatayni Falahum Ath-Thuluthni Mimm TarakaSeems to be a way when realizing Fa?in ELSE IF when combined with Wa/Wa ?In logical AND/AND IF statements one can write a program following the exact instructions?
START case CHILDREN
Ykumu Allhu F 'Awldikum Lildhdhakari Mithlu a??i Al-'Unthayayni
He directs you God in your CHILDREN ? to the male equal fortune the two females
2 daughters; 1 son -- 1/4 + 1/4 + 1/2; males get equal share the two females
2 daughters; 2 sons -- 1/6 + 1/6 + 1/3 + 1/3
Fa?in Kunna Nis'an Fawqa Athnatayni Falahunna Thuluth M Taraka
ELSE IF they are women over two, so for them two thirds what left
1 - 2/3 daughters = 1/3 son/s; males get 1/3 when females > 2
Wa ?In Knat Widatan Falah An-Nifu
AND IF she was one, so for her the half
1 - 1/2 daughter = 1/2 son/s; males get 1/2 when she is oneSTART case PARENTS
Wa Li'abawayhi Likulli Widin Minhum As-Sudusu Mimm Taraka 'In Kna Lahu Waladun
And to his PARENTS, to each one from them the sixth from what left if for him was a child
1 ? 1/6 mother/father = 5/6 CHILDREN
Fa?in Lam Yakun Lahu Waladun Wa Warithahu 'Abawhu Fali'ammihi Ath-Thuluthu
ELSE IF was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the third
1 ? 1/3 mother = 2/3 father
Fa?in Kna Lahu 'Ikhwatun Fali'ammihi As-Sudusu
ELSE IF Ikhwatun were for him, so to his mother the sixth
1 ? 1/6 mother = 5/6 (Ikhwatun + CHILDREN); see 412 for sibling distribution
1 ? 1/6 mother = 5/6 Ikhwatun; see 4176 for sibling distributionMin Ba
di Wayatin Y Bih 'Aw Daynin 'b'uukum Wa 'Abn'uukum L Tadrna 'Ayyuhum 'Aqrabu Lakum Nafan Faratan Mina Allhi 'Inna Allha Kna `Alman akmanSTART case HUSBAND
Wa Lakum Nifu M Taraka 'Azwjukum 'In Lam Yakun Lahunna Waladun
And for you half what left your spouse, if is not for them a child
1 - 1/2 husband = 1/2 father/mother
Fa?in Kna Lahunna Waladun Falakumu Ar-Rubu`u Mimm Tarakna
ELSE IF was for them a child, so for you the quarter from what they left
1 ? 1/4 husband = 3/4 CHILDREN
1 ? 1/4 husband ? 1/6 father/mother = 7/12 CHILDRENMin Ba`di Wayatin Yna Bih 'Aw Daynin
START case WIFE
Wa Lahunna Ar-Rubu`u Mimm Taraktum 'In Lam Yakun Lakum Waladun
And for them the quarter from what you left, if was not for you a child
1 ? 1/4 wife = 3/4 parent/s
Fa?in Kna Lakum Waladun Falahunna Ath-Thumunu Mimm Taraktum
ELSE IF was for you a child, so for them the eight from what you left
1 ? 1/8 wife = 7/8 CHILDREN
1 ? 1/8 wife ? 1/3 parents = 13/24 CHILDRENMin Ba`di Wayatin Tna Bih 'Aw Daynin
START case Kallatan (spouse-less and father-less with child)
Wa ?In Kna Rajulun Yrathu Kallatan 'Aw Amra'atun
AND IF was a man to be inherited Kallatan or a woman
Wa Lahu 'Akhun 'Aw 'Ukhtun Falikulli Widin Minhum As-Sudusu
And for him a brother, or a sister, so for each one from them the sixth
1 ? 1/6 sister/ brother = 5/6 CHILDREN
1 ? 1/6 mother ? 1/6 sister/ brother = 2/3 CHILDREN
Fa?in Kn 'Akthara Min Dhlika Fahum Shurak'u F Ath-Thuluthi
ELSE IF they were more than that, so they are partners in the third
1 ? 1/3 sister/s +brother/s = 2/3 CHILDREN
1 ? 1/6 mother ? 1/3 (sister/s + brother/s) = 1/2 CHILDRENMin Ba
di Wayatin Y? Bih 'Aw Daynin Ghayra Murrin Wayatan Mina Allhi Wa AllhuAlmun almunSTART case Al-Kallati (spouse-less and father-less; no child)
Yastaftnaka Quli Allhu Yuftkum F Al-Kallati 'Ini Amru'uun Halaka Laysa Lahu Waladun
They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in Al-Kallati, if human died, not for him a child
Wa Lahu 'Ukhtun Falah Nifu M Taraka
And for him a sister, so for her half what left
1 - 1/2 sister = 1/2 mother
Wa Huwa Yarithuh 'In Lam Yakun Lah Waladun
And he inherits her if was not for her a child
1 = brother; 0 = mother
Fa?in Knat Athnatayni Falahum Ath-Thuluthni Mimm Taraka
ELSE IF they were two, so to them (F) the two thirds from what left
1 ? 2/3 sisters = 1/3 mother
Wa ?In Kn 'Ikhwatan Rijlan Wa Nis'an Falildhdhakari Mithlu a??i Al-'Unthayayni
AND IF they were 'Ikhwatan Rijlan and Nis'an so to the male equal fortune the two females
1 sister; 1 brother -- 1/3 + 2/3
3 sisters; 2 brothers -- 1/7 + 1/7 + 1/7 + 2/7 + 2/7
1 ? 1/6 mother = 5/6 (sister/s + brother/s); males get equal share the two femalesYubayyinu Allhu Lakum 'An Taill Wa Allhu Bikulli Shay'in `Almun
Clarifies God for you that you are (not) misguided and God is with all things knowledgeable. -
peace Nun,
Thanks for your regular input on this subject.
Personally, I have not studied it, but I would like to see an online Quran inheritance calculator one day, where users type in the amount and answer a few questions on their situation, and it works out inheritance shares etc.
Only of course, if it was built upon the correct understanding.
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Salaam Nun,
You're continued contribution to this thread is very impressive
The topic of inheritance is something that is raised in practically every Islamophobic/anti-Islam site.
If I may, I just wanted to suggest that as the resident expert you write up a thorough article of it to be posted in the articles section, and that way thousands of others could benefit from it being easily accessible and linked to.
Just a suggestion
Thanks and Salaam
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Hi all,
I think you should also look at this book about this matter
'''''NO ERROR
IN QUR?AN!ACCORDNG TO QUR?AN
Division of Inheritance
assoc. prof. dr. eng. halis aydemir
No matter in which language you write the words of 'Qu'ran' and 'error'; when you search in the internet, first examples you see in the sites will be about the ones concerning the claim of error related with the inheritance verses in Qur'an. You will see the explanations with these verses in detail and the criticism of how these verses cannot be applied mathematically with some practical examples as well!
Whether such approach directed to Qu'ran is evil-minded or querier is not related with the essence of the issue; in conclusion there is a challenge pointed out mathematically in such critiques and this condition cannot be ignored.
It is out of question that the inheritance division by God is not appropriate mathematically. God is the creator of humankind and the science of mathematics. Now then, it is impossible that God proposes an imperfect division mathematically. It is possible to find similar expressions in corresponding sites.
Therefore, each so-called error to be found in Qu'ran has been transformed into an argument directing to weaken or confute the truth of its being apocalyptic. The claim concerning the inheritance divisions is one of the the most discussed examples and comes to minds first.
While we're discussing about inheritance divisions during Qu'ran Courses that we carried out in the public meetings in Qu'ran Research Foundation (KURAV) auditoriums, we also evaluated this subject mathematically with contributions of my dear friends. Visual and audial records of this activity is available on the website kurandersleri.net. Thanks to inspirations from some of our friends saying that the results we acquired are a little bit different, remarkable and original, we find it acceptable to broadcast by publishing a book.
This study has been prepared as a result of such collective approach. Contrary to popular belief, it is not established on the base of interpretation. It has been carried out on the platform where source text has been considered literally and the differences encountered in formal plan have not been ignored.
I believe that the ones considering the inheritance divisions verses subjected to several speculations until now, one more time from the perspective of this book will realize in a little while that they face with a real mathematical miracle rather than a problematic challenge in number.
Download this book from this site
http//www.quraanicstudies.com/no-error-in-qur-an-division-of-inheritance-according-to-quran/
.
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Peace,
Hi all,
I think you should also look at this book about this matter
'''''NO ERROR
IN QUR?AN!Download this book from this site
http//www.quraanicstudies.com/no-error-in-qur-an-division-of-inheritance-according-to-quran/
Downloaded the book and it contradicts Qur'an and most of the examples in this thread.
Example II
Supposing that, the deceased left three daughters, two sons, parents, a spouse and three siblings behind.
In this case, after adjusting from the testament and the debt, the inheritance is divided amongst children as followsAs the daughter takes one share and the son takes two shares, the property is divided into seven parts
each daughter receives a part, and each son receives two parts. Thus, the whole property has been divided amongst children in the first stage.In every case, when the deceased left combination of daughters and sons, the result won?t change regardless of the number of the children. The whole property is always divided as a complete share for each son, and a half share for each daughter in the first stage.
Read do EXACTLY as stated, no need to interpret a thing or conjecture....
411 He directs you Allah in your children ? to the male equal fortune the two females
IF females = 21/2 son
1/4 daughter
1/4 daughter1/3 son
1/3 son
1/6 daughter
1/6 daughterELSE IF they are females over two so for them two thirds what left
IF females > 2 (i.e. 3+)1/3 son/s
2/3 daughtersAND IF she was one, so for her the half
IF female = 11/2 son/s
1/2 daughter -
There is a problem in Quran's verses 411-12. 411-12 specify the rules of inheritance in the absence of a will. The contradiction is that when a man dies leaving three daughters, one mother, one father and one wife, the sum of shares that Quran gives exceed 1 and hence not enough wealth would exist to carry out Quran`s command.
Conclusion All attempts to find a solution fail. Contradiction remains.
Please either show that my reasoning is wrong or the translation of verses is wrong or propose another solution with a Quranic ground.
Thank youPeace Onur, Samia et al who participated on this thread.
After pondering over the verses it finally became clear and all the calculations add up perfectly with no need for the work around with children/siblings shares e.g. only daughter gets 1/2 and 5 sons get remaining 1/2 was a mistake although the few things we did get right especially the kalala definition which I'll open a different thread and list all the combinations. There is too much mockery on the net and all the sites and translations are horrible, contradicting, with not many willing to even discuss this topic or admit there is a mistake in their translations or interpretations.
One of the issues has to do with walad child/son.
It can also mean waladun child/born or offspring.http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Waw-Lam-Dal = to beget, give birth.
Likewise we did have correct ikh'watun brothers/siblings (at least one male present) and al-kallati (fatherless spouseless)
Here are the verses which if followed literally will give precise amounts with no excess or shortfall.
411 directs you The God in your children to the male like share the two (feminine) so if be females above two (feminine) so for them two thirds what left and if she was one so for her the half and for their parents to each one from them the sixth from what left if is to person walad/son so if not is to person waladun child/born and heirs person?s parents (if only parents) so to his mother the third so if is to person ikh'watun brothers/siblings (at least one male present) so to his mother the sixth from after a will have made in it or judgment your parents and your children not you know which of them closer to you benefit obligation from The God indeed The God is Knowing Wise
412 and for you half what left your spouse?s if not is for them waladun child/born so if is for them walad/son so for you the fourth from what they left from after a will they made in it or judgment and for them the fourth from what you left if not is to you waladun child/born so if is to you walad/son so for them the eight from what you left from after a will you made in it or judgment and if is a man inherited kallatan (fatherless spouseless) or woman and has a brother or sister so for each one from them the sixth so if they were more from that so they partners in the third from after a will is recommended in it or judgment not harmful a will from The God and The God Knowing Forbearing
4176 they seek your ruling say The God gives you a ruling in al-kallati (fatherless spouseless) if a person died is not to that person waladun child/born and has sister so for her half what left and he inherits it if not is to her waladun child/born so if were two (feminine) so to them the two thirds from what left and if they were ikh'watun brothers/siblings men and females so to the male like share the two (feminine) clarifies The God to you lest you stray and The God in every a thing Knowing
Careful attention is to see the kalala 411 with no son; 412 kalala with son; 4176 kalala no child/born
Here is the answer for the example case above 3 daughters, mother, father, wife
411 so if be females above two (feminine) so for them two thirds
2/3 three daughters or 2/9 each411 and for their parents to each one from them the sixth from what left if is to person walad/son
No son, mother and father are variable. Likewise wife is variable since conditions below are not met either412 and for them the fourth from what you left if not is to you waladun child/born so if is to you walad/son so for them the eight
2/3 (2/9 each 3 daughters) + 1/3 (1/9 mother, 1/9 father, 1/9 wife) = 1
Here are a few of the different kalala cases ...
411 kalala fatherless spouseless no son (sibling/s variable)
mother, 1 daughter, sister/s 1/4 1/2 1/4
mother, 1 daughter, brother/s 1/4 1/2 1/4
mother, 1 daughter, sister/s, brother/s 1/6 1/2 1/3 siblings share equally412 kalala fatherless spouseless has son
mother, son/s, sister 1/6 2/3 1/6
mother, son/s, brother 1/6 2/3 1/6
mother, son/s, sisters 1/6 1/2 1/3
mother, son/s, brothers1/6 1/2 1/3
mother, son/s, sister/s, brother/s 1/6 1/2 1/3 siblings share equally4176 kalala fatherless spouseless no child/born
sister/s, brother/s 21 ratio male to female
mother, sister/s, brother/s 1/6 5/6 21 ratio
mother, 1 sister 1/2 1/2
mother, 2 sisters 1/3 2/3
mother, 3 sisters 1/4 3/4 (unstated so divide equally) -
Peace be to you guys as well...
May God Almighty make things clear and understandable for us. -
411 kalala fatherless spouseless no son (sibling/s variable)
mother, 1 daughter, sister/s 1/4 1/2 1/4
mother, 1 daughter, brother/s 1/4 1/2 1/4
mother, 1 daughter, sister/s, brother/s 1/6 1/2 1/3 siblings share equallyslight correction above mother get's 1/6 if ikh'watun brother/s.
mother, 1 daughter, brother/s 1/6 1/2 1/3
new thread with all combinations http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604035.0
