How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran
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Oh so true. Just because one can "unguard" one's private parts around one's spouse it doesn't mean that one can have sex with him/her anyway he/she likes. At least it isn't conclusive in that verse anyway.
Peace San
I know you said you want to stop discussing this but i think you should consider this
You have to take all things as halal in the Quran unless made haram. So you have to assume that sex with one's mother is halal unless stated otherwise (I know it's extreme but there is a purpose) Now obviously as the Quran is a complete book, you'd expect something that's so strongly against all faculties to be forbidden in the scripture. and so it is.
From the first restriction that is placed, it means that the parts can only be unguarded to spouse and MMA. Thus all outside of this circle can't have sex as the parts must be guarded with respect to them which amongst many meanings, also entails that sex cannot be done.
Now i'm not saying that to unguard = to have sex but i'm saying that to unguard permits sex as well as other things provided that it does not clash with other guidelines and restrictions.
It kind of looks like your approaching this from the angle of
It's haram unless proven otherwise and 235-6 only convey that parts can be ungaurded.
But this is like an automatic assumption of haram to need quran proof of halal where as it should be like halal-----to what proof is there of haram
We can't approach something as haram and then look for proof of it being halal. It has to be the other way round. and so I've asked for proof of some other verse that limits the ungaurding of the private parts to MMA in some way that it does not do so with the spouse but there is none. Unless you take sex with MMA as a fahasha. But it would be questionable how sex in a strong relationship is a type of fahasha or lack of patience or anything else that implies the lack of vritue or morality.
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If theres any other questions let me know.
Peace
Thanks for the reply.One proposes marriage only when one is sure that they want to spend the rest of their lives with a certain person as that is what marriage is.
Why can't an MMA couple spend the rest of their lives together?
I see the starting of a relationship with an MMA as something casual as that is the search for a bride.
?O you who believe, if you marry the believing women, then divorced them before having intercourse with them, then there is no interim required of them. You shall compensate them, and let them go in an amicable manner.? (Quran 3349)
Who in their right mind would get married "before having intercourse with them", if an MMA relationships is more casual and allows it? That's like getting married even before "getting to know" them.
?The divorce is allowed twice. So, either they reconcile equitably, or they part-ways with kindness. And it is not lawful for you to take back anything you have given the women unless you fear that they will not uphold God?s limits. So if you fear that they will not uphold God?s limits, then there is no sin upon them for what is given back. These are God?s limits so do not transgress them. And whoever shall transgress God?s limits, then these are the wicked.? (Quran 2229)
So that's already two constraints on married couples that do not apply to MMA couples.
I see this as a means of preventing people from taking marriage as something casual. I see the starting of a relationship with an MMA as something casual as that is the search for a bride. These conditions are in the case of people who get married hastily or wrongly and then decide no this was not for me. The person they married need some kind of recompense. If sex had occured then that implies that the relationship was either serious or not serious and one side was just rushing things. Thus the need for such conditions considering the serious nature of a marriage.
Why were these people "rushing things"?
What benefit does marriage give over an MMA relationship?
It seems you would only get more constraints from marrying the person such as the, Dowry, Interim periods for divorce. limits to the number of times divorce is allowed etc.
One necessarily does not need to do it in this way. They could just see a girl and then go and propose. But I would think that the other option is a more reasonable approach and gives two people a better knowing of each other before choosing to get married and spending the rest of their live together.
I agree, it would make a lot more sense. The ultimate conclusion I can come up with is. If an MMA couple can do everything a married couple can, minus the constraints... it would make the most sense to not get married at all.
So I repeat, why can't an MMA couple spend the rest of their lives together?
Ok this is where I would have thought the verse should also have applied to a relationship with an MMA.
Ultimately I think the lack of the guideline for MMA set in 2228 is confusing.That is unfortunate.
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Thanks for the reply.
No problem. I appreciate discussing this.
Why can't an MMA couple spend the rest of their lives together?
They can if they choose to. I would think it's their choice.
?O you who believe, if you marry the believing women, then divorced them before having intercourse with them, then there is no interim required of them. You shall compensate them, and let them go in an amicable manner.? (Quran 3349)
Who in their right mind would get married "before having intercourse with them", if an MMA relationships is more casual and allows it? That's like getting married even before "getting to know" them.
?The divorce is allowed twice. So, either they reconcile equitably, or they part-ways with kindness. And it is not lawful for you to take back anything you have given the women unless you fear that they will not uphold God?s limits. So if you fear that they will not uphold God?s limits, then there is no sin upon them for what is given back. These are God?s limits so do not transgress them. And whoever shall transgress God?s limits, then these are the wicked.? (Quran 2229)
So that's already two constraints on married couples that do not apply to MMA couples.
I would think who in their right mind would marry someone just so the abillity to have sex could be unlocked or who in their right mind would marry someone without making sure that that the person they plan on marrying is the right one. A relationship at first is casual. It could end soon or develop and strengthen. It could reach such a strength that the two choose to live together for the rest of their lives and this is where the marriage card is either brought in or not. My point in saying this is that If marriage is brought in to the relationship, then the status is enhanced and it is more official and contractually more binding. It shows the desire to live together forever and to start a family.
So people need to take the issue of marriage very seriously before proposing IMO and the two restraints you mention make sure of this. So if you do/don't have sex when married and then you break up (suggesting your judgement was wrong when proposing or in the case of having had sex this may be suggesting you just married for sex (as some people do)) then you can't just divorce and then leave them after making such a strong pledge An oath of similar strength is not present in a relationship with an MMA. Thus I think the two restraints you have mentioned need not apply to them IMO.An MMA is the search for a lifelong mate. In this search why should sex be prohibited and holding hands not?
Why were these people "rushing things"?
Not necessarily rush. What I meant was that after a relationship reaches the status of marriage, then saving it is important. So in the case of divorce, before this happens the guidelines act as a means of spotting whether such a once strong relationship can be save or not. This also prevents people making hasty decisions about divorce. For exmaple a couple choose to divorce after just one argument (unlikely i know) but whilst this may happen in a weak relationship with an MMA, this should not happen in a marriage due to the importance of taking the marriage pledge seriously and not casually.
What benefit does marriage give over an MMA relationship?
The definate presence of an enhanced and very strong oath (if marriage is done right and patiently) A contract for legal purposes which could further bind the relationship. The officialness of it. To say that one is getting married one is sure that they are making a pledge for life and have been made the pledge to live with each other forever.
Although one could just say something like "i want to live with you forever without all the marriage fuss of signing things and so on" but that is basically the stage at which one proposes marriage to make it offical IMO but if someone does not want to for whatever reasonable reason then it's their choice. But there is no longer legal protection for the two after making such a relationship strong in contrast to marriage. Which verfies the strength of the relationship and legally protects it.
In addition to this IF it was such that the Quran prohibited sex with one's own MMA then sex would also be another advantage to marriage. But I think sex (if done right) is a useful but not a necessary tool in reaching a strong relationship based on things i have seen and heard about the effects of it.
It seems you would only get more constraints from marrying the person such as the, Dowry, Interim periods for divorce. limits to the number of times divorce is allowed etc.
The dowry is a subjective issue. How much you gave is dependent on culture, society and time. But that aside, these responsibilities are need for such an important pledge where as the oath with an MMA is not of the same strength. It ranges and once it reaches this strength then marriage is sought. Not so that sex can be unlocked IMO but so the things i said above can be brough in.
That is how i understand the purpose of these restraints mentioned.I agree, it would make a lot more sense. The ultimate conclusion I can come up with is. If an MMA couple can do everything a married couple can, minus the constraints... it would make the most sense to not get married at all.
I don't think that sex should be a restraint exclusively for marriage (just my understanding) What then is the purpose of this restraint? Marriage is like a verification which provides benefits for the couple in society such as legal aspects.
That is unfortunate.
This to me makes clear that something is missing. I think it will be found if looked at more in the Quran which i hope to do. Now whether the thing that is found implies evidence for sex with a girlfriend/fiance or against it is to be determined. But as things currently stand, i think it to be too clear that sex with MMA is permissable. Things that i believe are incomplete are what the MMA is exactly and what guidelines they have. I think that there are other guidelines for the MMA that solve this issue or that there is something about the MMA that makes it different to like a girlfriend. But i think it clear in the Quran that sex with MMA is halal.
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I do not believe that you did any research before coming to your conclusion. It took me just 5 minutes to get a collection of verses with MMA in it and already your theory has been shown to have many inconsistencies.
See verse 425.
Why are married "MMA" women punished less than married "non-MMA" women for adultery?See verse 43
Why does the verse talk about marrying a normal women vs. an MMA women?See verses 423-425
Tell me what is going on if MMA means "girlfriend/boyfriend".See verse 1671
Extremely confusing if MMA means "girlfriend/boyfriend".See verse 2433
If MMA want to consummate the marriage? I thought MMA were unmarried.See verse 2458
Why are MMA placed in the same category as children in regards to asking permission? Are they not adults?See verse 3028
Fear MMA as you Fear each other? What is going on?See verses 3350-3355
I can't even describe how reads. And verse 3352? verse 3355? -
No problem. I appreciate discussing this.
They can if they choose to. I would think it's their choice.I would think who in their right mind would marry someone just so the abillity to have sex could be unlocked or who in their right mind would marry someone without making sure that that the person they plan on marrying is the right one. A relationship at first is casual. It could end soon or develop and strengthen. It could reach such a strength that the two choose to live together for the rest of their lives and this is where the marriage card is either brought in or not. My point in saying this is that If marriage is brought in to the relationship, then the status is enhanced and it is more official and contractually more binding. It shows the desire to live together forever and to start a family.
So people need to take the issue of marriage very seriously before proposing IMO and the two restraints you mention make sure of this. So if you do/don't have sex when married and then you break up (suggesting your judgement was wrong when proposing or in the case of having had sex this may be suggesting you just married for sex (as some people do)) then you can't just divorce and then leave them after making such a strong pledge An oath of similar strength is not present in a relationship with an MMA. Thus I think the two restraints you have mentioned need not apply to them IMO.An MMA is the search for a lifelong mate. In this search why should sex be prohibited and holding hands not?
Not necessarily rush. What I meant was that after a relationship reaches the status of marriage, then saving it is important. So in the case of divorce, before this happens the guidelines act as a means of spotting whether such a once strong relationship can be save or not. This also prevents people making hasty decisions about divorce. For exmaple a couple choose to divorce after just one argument (unlikely i know) but whilst this may happen in a weak relationship with an MMA, this should not happen in a marriage due to the importance of taking the marriage pledge seriously and not casually.
The definate presence of an enhanced and very strong oath (if marriage is done right and patiently) A contract for legal purposes which could further bind the relationship. The officialness of it. To say that one is getting married one is sure that they are making a pledge for life and have been made the pledge to live with each other forever.Although one could just say something like "i want to live with you forever without all the marriage fuss of signing things and so on" but that is basically the stage at which one proposes marriage to make it offical IMO but if someone does not want to for whatever reasonable reason then it's their choice. But there is no longer legal protection for the two after making such a relationship strong in contrast to marriage. Which verfies the strength of the relationship and legally protects it.
In addition to this IF it was such that the Quran prohibited sex with one's own MMA then sex would also be another advantage to marriage. But I think sex (if done right) is a useful but not a necessary tool in reaching a strong relationship based on things i have seen and heard about the effects of it.
The dowry is a subjective issue. How much you gave is dependent on culture, society and time. But that aside, these responsibilities are need for such an important pledge where as the oath with an MMA is not of the same strength. It ranges and once it reaches this strength then marriage is sought. Not so that sex can be unlocked IMO but so the things i said above can be brough in.
That is how i understand the purpose of these restraints mentioned.
I don't think that sex should be a restraint exclusively for marriage (just my understanding) What then is the purpose of this restraint? Marriage is like a verification which provides benefits for the couple in society such as legal aspects.This to me makes clear that something is missing. I think it will be found if looked at more in the Quran which i hope to do. Now whether the thing that is found implies evidence for sex with a girlfriend/fiance or against it is to be determined. But as things currently stand, i think it to be too clear that sex with MMA is permissable. Things that i believe are incomplete are what the MMA is exactly and what guidelines they have. I think that there are other guidelines for the MMA that solve this issue or that there is something about the MMA that makes it different to like a girlfriend. But i think it clear in the Quran that sex with MMA is halal.
How do you know that marriage back in the time of the prophet was the same as it is today? Your talking about contracts and "legal aspects" in society as though the laws were the same. To my understanding the only legal aspects as it comes to marriage are what is written in the Quran. And all that is written in the Quran as it comes to marriage are constraints and the exclusive benefit of having an intimate relationship + children etc.
So if all the benefits of having a Marital relationship can be "acquired" in an MMA relationship. What benefit does marriage give over an MMA relationship?
Why not stay in an MMA relationship indefinitely?
Please carefully read the verses I posted earlier. You would be doing yourself a great injustice if you skipped over them. I agree MMA may be a controversial issue, but it clearly is not what you say it is.
37 He is the One who sent down to you the Book, from which there are firm revelations; they are the essence of the Book; and others which are similar. As for those who have a disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God, and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except those who possess intelligence.
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Peace Omeiza )
I am fairly certain it is slave.Peace aalmakto and others
I've not abandonned this thread. I've just been really busy and i knew i'd have to do more research on this before i replied to you bro. Research would take time and this last two weeks I have been very busy and before that i kinda wanted a break from this thread )
peace
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Salam Aalmakto
If we take MMA to mean slaves, this will face the same criticisms that understanding MMA as a gf/bf relationship will face.
It is the understanding of Quranic restrictions on limits with MMA which is the main concern IMO. These are limits which I think are there but need be found. I hope to look at this more at some point. But i am really occupied right now with University work and some other things.Anyway thought i'd post this as something for you to consider.
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Salam Aalmakto
If we take MMA to mean slaves, this will face the same criticisms that understanding MMA as a gf/bf relationship will face.
It is the understanding of Quranic restrictions on limits with MMA which is the main concern IMO. These are limits which I think are there but need be found. I hope to look at this more at some point. But i am really occupied right now with University work and some other things.Anyway thought i'd post this as something for you to consider.
Salaam Nimnimak,
I am also occupied so feel free to take as long as you wish in replying -
Considering it to be slavery causes far, far more serious moral problems than sex between people who haven't had a wedding ceremony.
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I'm still fond of my explanation that it means "husband", but assuming everyone else is right that "husband" doesn't fit into the contexts, it probably refers to a form of relationship that was common sense back then but doesn't exist any more.
I think the real mistake is assuming that all these detailed passages on family law should be taken literally, when really that is not their purpose.
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I need to do more study before coming to a conclusion so God willing I will consider your view as well. To be honest MMA does not really interest me as like you said it may be a relationship that.
doesn't exist any more
Hopefully someone who has done significant research can enlighten us.
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I do not believe that you did any research before coming to your conclusion. It took me just 5 minutes to get a collection of verses with MMA in it and already your theory has been shown to have many inconsistencies.
See verse 425.
Why are married "MMA" women punished less than married "non-MMA" women for adultery?See verse 43
Why does the verse talk about marrying a normal women vs. an MMA women?See verses 423-425
Tell me what is going on if MMA means "girlfriend/boyfriend".See verse 1671
Extremely confusing if MMA means "girlfriend/boyfriend".See verse 2433
If MMA want to consummate the marriage? I thought MMA were unmarried.See verse 2458
Why are MMA placed in the same category as children in regards to asking permission? Are they not adults?See verse 3028
Fear MMA as you Fear each other? What is going on?See verses 3350-3355
I can't even describe how reads. And verse 3352? verse 3355?Salam Aalmakto
I can't believe I missed this post! I'm sorry for not addressing this post. I was unaware that it existed. I did do the research and it took a long time. With no disrespect intended, your 5 mins of research was not enough. The majority of the verses you have quoted have been discussed before. I'l put an astrix next to those we have already discussed so that ff you want to go back to thread and look at them in more detail you'll know whether it's there or not.
425* You've misunderstood the verse. It is not married MMA women. It is married fatayat women. The fatayat get half the punishment of muhsinat. This has nothing to do with being an MMA. Check the verse. I'l expand on it more if you want but this has been pointed out by Sarah before and we discussed it then.
43* Again this has been discussed. It does not say or imply what your understanding it to be. To make this clearer, look at the classes we are allowed to marry in sura 423-25 and your defenition of normal will have some problems. First look at my reply to you on 423-25 then chek it out for yourself.
423-25* Not sure what you mean. Which part you want me to discuss? An important point from this is that the muhsinat women cannot be married unless they are your MMA. I think this is the same with fatayat. Thus i believe that you cannot marry anyone unless they are first your MMA as no other class would be left for marriage. Already discussed this verse if you want more details on it in the thread.
1671 How? I see it in support of it being a relationship. The verse implies that it is better to share to become equal in it. That is how i see it.
2433* The verse is not as it appears. Check a literal translation. My understanding is If the MMA request marriage and you find them to be ready, then accept.
2458 I don't know. It is for certain that the MMA cannot mean anything that relates to children but i'm not sure why MMA are addressed here.
3028 I see this in support of a relationship. Is it not implying that it would foolish to fear the MMA as you fear each other (by each other i take people whom you don't well enough or strangers)
3350-55*
Omeiza advised me to look at those verses but I did not fully understand what he wanted me to pick out then. I'l quote 3350 and highlight what i think your directing me towards and comment on it. If i've commented on the wrong thing, please correct me. So heres 3350
You, you the prophet, that We, We permitted/allowed for you your wives/spouses those who you gave their rewards (dowries), and what your right (hand) owned/possessed from what God bestowed upon you, and your paternal uncles' daughters, and your paternal aunts' daughters, and your maternal uncles' daughters, and your maternal aunts' daughters, who (F) emigrated with you, and a believing woman if she presented herself to the prophet, if the prophet wanted that He marries her, clearly/purely for you from other than the believers, We had known what We had commanded/imposed/stipulated on them in their wives and what their right (hands) owned/possessed, so that strain/blame/sin not be on you, and God was/is forgiving, merciful.Heres the root of the word
Waw-ha-Ba = to give/grant/bestow, dedicate, offer as a present/gift.From this it is clear that the believing women is offering/dediate herself to the prophet. But this offering or dedication is with respect to marriage as is made clear with "if the prophet wanted that he marries her" now your argument is that the woman would first have to be MMA because of 3052 right? If so i still don't get how this becomes a problem. The woman is offering/dedicating herself as an MMA. What word or phrase would you have expected to have been used instead? This question might help me better understand your point.
The only verse which i see as a problem to MMA meaning something like a girlfriend is 2228. But this problem is much less then the problem we face if we were to give MMA any other meaning other then something like a girlfriend. All other meanings would either cause clear contradictions or be less convincing then the MMA being a girfirend of some sort.
I ask of anyone to think and to provide other possibilites as to what MMA could mean and i'm pretty sure i can prove that it is much less convincing then understanding that MMA is something like a girlfriend when looking at all the relevant verses. I have already thought about other possibilities, there are none.
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I'm still fond of my explanation that it means "husband", but assuming everyone else is right that "husband" doesn't fit into the contexts, it probably refers to a form of relationship that was common sense back then but doesn't exist any more.
I think the real mistake is assuming that all these detailed passages on family law should be taken literally, when really that is not their purpose.
Could you expand on this a bit?
What do you mean a relationship that would have been common sense then but not now. I am talking of a relationship that also includes sex. Or let's just say no sex. It won't make a difference. Could there really be anything then that is not common sense now in terms of a relationship?