al Masjid al Haram and al Masjid al Aqsa
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@cavemandoctor I can assure you ayman has done tons of research on this.
Is that some kind of "proof" vis-a-vis raginggaijin's "assumption"?
What's your authority or authenticity?
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No, not all the time. Ayman receives as he gave.
I am gentle towards the believers, not those seeking to deceive.
I bring proofs to back up what I believe. Where is Ayman's?
Again, you need to calm down a bit, brother. Why get so defensive? We're simply discussing an issue from the quran; there's absolutely no need to call someone who disagrees with you as someone "seeking to deceive" and implying the person is not a believer. It is improper and detracts from your argument. Just some friendly advice.
Explanation is not proof.
The question I ask you is this Do you believe Allah is All Knowing, Omniscient, Seer? Do you? Yes or no.
Do you believe what is put in the Quran and what is in the world today were meant to confuse the believer or is it clear?
Then I give you this
"And certainly We have revealed to you clear communications and none disbelieve in them except the transgressors." Surah 299
This is a more complex question than you are letting on. The message of the quran is abundantly clear, agreed. It is quite a leap of faith, however, to say that core message of the quran being clear somehow precludes the existence of verses the interpretations of which reasonable people can disagree on. Not every single issue mentioned in the quran is "simple." Surely you realize this. The quran itself mentions this, of course (37, mutashabihat). This has nothing to do with Allah being All-Knowing. Clearly Allah knows what safa and marwa refers to, etc. But we, as human believers, often have to study the quran to remove the shackles traditionalists have put upon the scripture in their intentional hijacking.
It is entirely plausible that the hypocrites the quran speaks of so often, hijacked the meanings of many of the verses/issues in the quran, to promote their agenda. Of course, history bears this out. These hypocrites knew they couldn't change the text of the scripture itself so instead they institutionalized certain ideas and forcibly attached those interpretations onto verses, thereby removing any distinction between the text itself and the supposed meaning they attached to the text. It is quite obvious this has happened with many of the concepts surrounding the hajj. And it is with this framework that ayman and many of us here approach the issue. I'll let brother ayman respond himself, as he is quite capable. All I have to say is that I suspect ayman made his post to you because he saw that you too were attaching a certain specific meaning to the text, and then citing the verse, as if the verse literally said what you purported it did.
You cannot take anything for granted with the quran (or in life in general, 1736). We have to be careful to study the quran on its own merits, and not presume that a verse automatically means something because "our ancestors" or "our scholars" have told us it does. I won't bother pasting the many, many verses denouncing taking one's ancestors or scholars at their word, as I am confident you are already aware of them.
What is a sign/monument/beacon/waymark?
Are Safa and Marwa signs/monuments/beacons?
Keyword Pilgrimage. House.""Safa and Marwah (alssafa waalmarwata) are signs (shaAAa-iri) of Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them." Surah 2158
Reference the original Arabic Quran in Surah 2198 and Surah 2158 for sign/monument/beacon/waymark (almashAAari).
It's not rocket surgery.
You are saying that people created two small mountains in an attempt to deceive the majority. This is a formidable task, even in this day. Is that what you are saying has occurred? Am I understanding you correctly?
You can put that forth to our Creator on Judgment Day if you desire, but I would be hard pressed to offer to anyone else that theory without proof they are man-made or did not exist 1400 years ago.
So if that is your claim, where is your proof?
Repeat after me Explanation is not proof.
I believe in the Quran; all of it. I believe it is a revelation from our Creator and a guidance for the believer.
I am not your guardian nor am I responsible for you or anyone else. To me are my works and to you are yours. Let those who come behind read and make their own decisions based on what is offered before them. They can either follow the fancy stories and explanations, or they can follow the proofs provided from the Quran and in the world we live in.
"Surely those who conceal any part of the Book that Allah has revealed and take for it a small price, they eat nothing but fire into their bellies, and Allah will not speak to them on the day of resurrection, nor will He purify them, and they shall have a painful chastisement." Surah 2174
Bear witness I submit to Allah, Lord of the worlds.
Peace.
Again, I'll let ayman respond to you. I want to clarify and mention that I did not say anyone "created two small mountains." I meant, the ideas of safa and marwa were perhaps later nominalized and retrospectively 'attached' to existing mountains. A similar thing likely happened with al-masjid al-haram. I urge you to read this article if you haven't already http//free-minds.org/name
Peace.
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@cavemandoctor I can assure you ayman has done tons of research on this.
Is that some kind of "proof" vis-a-vis raginggaijin's "assumption"?
What's your authority or authenticity?
Peace thegod. You have misunderstood. I never said the fact that ayman has done research on this is some sort of "proof."
Brother raginggaijin said the following
If you did your research you would have known that.
It was that statement that I was responding to, by reassuring that ayman has done research. Of course, his doing research doesn't necessarily make him right.
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Peace Raginggaijin,
first things first.
You are kidding, right?
"Those who have been expelled from their homes without a just cause except that they say Our Lord is Allah. And had there not been Allah's repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah's name is much remembered; and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause; most surely Allah is Strong, Mighty." Surah 2240
Check the original Arabic for the names of these structures. Guess what a Mosque is called.
No, I am not kidding.
Is this your translation or you just copy paste it? Did you try to undestand it or tried to search the meaning of each word? Or simplier, just take diffefrent translations and compare?
Yusuf Ali translation
(They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right (for no cause) except that they say "Our Lord is Allah." Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid His (cause); for verily Allah is Full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (Able to enforce His Will).Moshin Khan
Those who have been expelled from their homes unjustly only because they said "Our Lord is All?h." - For had it not been that All?h checks one set of people by means of another, monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, wherein the Name of All?h is mentioned much would surely have been pulled down. Verily, All?h will help those who help His (Cause). Truly, All?h is All-Strong, All-Mighty.Pikthal
Those who have been driven from their homes unjustly only because they said Our Lord is Allah - For had it not been for Allah's repelling some men by means of others, cloisters and churches and oratories and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft mentioned, would assuredly have been pulled down. Verily Allah helpeth one who helpeth Him. Lo! Allah is Strong, Almighty -Shakir
Those who have been expelled from their homes without a just cause except that they say Our Lord is Allah. And had there not been Allah's repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah's name is much remembered; and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause; most surely Allah is Strong, MightyFree-minds
The ones who were driven out of their homes without justice, except that they said Our Lord is God! And if it were not for God defending the people against themselves, then many places of gathering, and markets, and bonds, and temples where the name of God is frequently mentioned, would have been destroyed. God will give victory to those who support Him. God is Powerful, Noble.I know what you gone a say, FM translation is not an "official" translation while the other are, were there revealed with the arabic version at the same time?
The original Arabic in Surah 2 142-150 states 'Masjid Al-Haram'.
The Sacred Mosque.
We are to face Masjid Al-Haram, the Sacred Mosque. Surah 2144,149,150. Allah tells us this three (3) times.
Allah tells us three (3) times "This is truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of the doubters." Surah 2144,147,149http//che.sharif.ir/~ehsan_tavakkoli/masjid_al_haram.jpg
See the structure that surrounds the Kaaba? That is Masjid Al-Haram.
Surah 2225-33 differentiates between Masjid Al-Haram and Bayt Al-Haram. The Kabah is called Bayt (2226), Ancient House/Bayt Atiq (2229) and we are told it is okay to go around the House. We do not go around Masjid Al-Haram.
Allah makes sure we know the Kaaba is known as the Sacred House in Surah 597. The Kaaba is a place of congregation and sacrifice (595).
You cannot live in the Kaaba, but families live(d) in Masjid Al-Haram. Surah 2196, 2225, 2791, 2967, 4824"Safa and Marwah are signs of Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them." Surah 2158
Safa and Marwah are two small mountains that are partially enclosed now by Masjid Al-Haram Surah 2158The Farthest Mosque in Surah 171 is Masjid Al-Aqsa.
The Al-Aqsa Mosque is located in Jerusalem. This Mosque was called the Temple of Solomon by the Knights Templar during the Crusade, for the Temple stood where the Mosque stands today.http//hamzajennings.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Al_Aqsa.jpg
See that large structure that starts with the Wailing Wall and goes all the way back, with the Dome of the Rock inside? That entire structure. That is Masjid Al-Aqsa.
The Children of Israel were given the Temple of Solomon, Masid Al-Aqsa, as their qiblah I Kings 822-44, Surah 171, 174-7, 9107
Daniel faced Jerusalem Dan. 610May Allah pour down patience upon the believers from Most High.
Peace.
If masjid is the arabic word for mosque, do you usually have sex in the mosque as stated in 2187
......
......but do not associate with your wives while ye are in retreat in MASSAJIDA. Those are limits (set by) Allah; approach not nigh thereto. Thus doth Allah make clear His signs to men that they may learn self-restraint.I am not going to counter argue the other point, safa , marwa etc etc because you did no make any effort to search, study the verse 2240, therefore I am not going to do the job for you, it is your own responsability.
BTW going and coming back 7 times from Mount Safa to Mount Marwa will not give you any spritual benefit, but very good for your body, it is a good sport.Peace
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Oh, okay, buddy. So you know that ayman has done his reasearch.
What about you yourself, have you done any research into this yourself?
Not sure why you're trying to divert from the topic. Anyway, have I conducted an exhaustive study of all the words related to the hajj in the quran? No I have not. I have "studied" it in a fairly limited sense in that I have read articles on it and read discussions on it here at the forum. I've also briefly looked at the history of the masjid al-haram, etc. It is quite clear (to me) that ideas were later institutionalized and retroactively attached to certain quranic ideas, not just with regard to the hajj but also other quranic concepts. This should come as no surprise. Any student of the quran, any student of history, should expect such a thing to happen.
Also, I wanted to say that I did not post in this thread until brother ragingaijin "quoted" to an actual verse of the quran (complete with citation) and laid out a text that simply does not exist in the verse itself. We can argue about what the verse means, sure, but to literally say the verse says such and such when it clearly does not, is not okay. It should go without saying that I don't need to have done an exhaustive study of all the concepts of hajj to take issue with such reckless verse-quoting.
Peace.
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Trying to divert from the topic? Where did you get such a wild idea from? Nobody expects a dialogue to progress in a rigidly linear fashion, so do away with the assumption and let us stick to the facts.
You are working under the assumption that Safa and Marwa are not mountains or whatever, while he is assuming that they are very much that. So there is nothing which makes anything go against him or in your favor.
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Salam, Peace to all,
2 things
1- either "Masjid Al Haram" is a construction/building, and then the Great Reading doesn't tell us much about the location, and therefore details are missing in the Great Reading!
2- either "Masjid Al Haram" is not a construction/building and all the details are in the Great Reading, we just need to open our mind and forget about our "influenced" background.My personnal choice is the second one.
Then searching/studying a bout the word Masjid.
Masjid comes from Ma+Sajada--> a deep study of sajada demonstarte SAJADA means more than likely "obedience with humility""Masjid Al Haram" is translated by some "Instution of the obedience of the Restriction" then a problem occur, how would you explain "MASSAJID", are there many "Institutions of Obedience"?
My understanding is if MASJID would mean a "state of obedience" rather than "Institution of Obedience" then the plural would fit perfectly as the "states of Obedience".
What are these "states"? This can be answered by the Great Reading by looking the occurences of SAJADA.
SAJADA is the action, when masjid is the state.1- state - Devotion at night
3113Not all of them are alike of the People of the book are a portion that stand (for the right); they rehearse the signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration.
3114
They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works; they are in the ranks of the righteous.2- state/ Accomplish the salat
4102-4103
3-state "follow the God's commands"
4153-154
The sabat for the bani Israel4- state
711-12
The Angels5- state " Belive in Rabi Al alameen"
7120-121 (First state)
But the sorcerers fell down prostrate (sajidoona) in adoration.
Saying "we believe in the Lord of the worlds.6- state "Believe in the verses of God"
17106-107As we can see here these are the different states, now come the "Masjid Al Haram".
This is a state described/mentionned in the Great Reading in the context of Hajj see 2144, 2149, 2150, 2191, 2196
As Hajj is to be performed during the "restriction" month see 597, then the "Masjid of Restrictions" is the state where one apply these restrictions on him.In 2187 we can see one of the restriction to be applied
......
......but do not associate with your wives while ye are in retreat in MASSAJIDA. Those are limits (set by) Allah; approach not nigh thereto. Thus doth Allah make clear His signs to men that they may learn self-restraint.I cannot answer to whom this restriction in 2187 has to be applied to the one making hajj, the one who fast, all mumeen, all muslim? I don't know!
Please comment.
BTW I should add this
The restriction in this context would be for the one fasting, wich is a "state of obedience" and I remembered this question from DrFazl
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598006.0
2187 will perfectly aswer this allegation with this meaning of Massajid/Masjid.
Peace
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Peace Raginggaijin,
first things first.
No, I am not kidding.
Is this your translation or you just copy paste it? Did you try to undestand it or tried to search the meaning of each word? Or simplier, just take diffefrent translations and compare?
Yusuf Ali translation
(They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right (for no cause) except that they say "Our Lord is Allah." Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid His (cause); for verily Allah is Full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (Able to enforce His Will).Moshin Khan
Those who have been expelled from their homes unjustly only because they said "Our Lord is All?h." - For had it not been that All?h checks one set of people by means of another, monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, wherein the Name of All?h is mentioned much would surely have been pulled down. Verily, All?h will help those who help His (Cause). Truly, All?h is All-Strong, All-Mighty.Pikthal
Those who have been driven from their homes unjustly only because they said Our Lord is Allah - For had it not been for Allah's repelling some men by means of others, cloisters and churches and oratories and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft mentioned, would assuredly have been pulled down. Verily Allah helpeth one who helpeth Him. Lo! Allah is Strong, Almighty -Shakir
Those who have been expelled from their homes without a just cause except that they say Our Lord is Allah. And had there not been Allah's repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah's name is much remembered; and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause; most surely Allah is Strong, MightyFree-minds
The ones who were driven out of their homes without justice, except that they said Our Lord is God! And if it were not for God defending the people against themselves, then many places of gathering, and markets, and bonds, and temples where the name of God is frequently mentioned, would have been destroyed. God will give victory to those who support Him. God is Powerful, Noble.I know what you gone a say, FM translation is not an "official" translation while the other are, were there revealed with the arabic version at the same time?
If masjid is the arabic word for mosque, do you usually have sex in the mosque as stated in 2187
......
......but do not associate with your wives while ye are in retreat in MASSAJIDA. Those are limits (set by) Allah; approach not nigh thereto. Thus doth Allah make clear His signs to men that they may learn self-restraint.I am not going to counter argue the other point, safa , marwa etc etc because you did no make any effort to search, study the verse 2240, therefore I am not going to do the job for you, it is your own responsability.
BTW going and coming back 7 times from Mount Safa to Mount Marwa will not give you any spritual benefit, but very good for your body, it is a good sport.Peace
18 different Qurans, including the original Arabic. Yes, I am learning Arabic. If a white American can learn Arabic, no one has any excuses.
They are still structures. And as we see in Surah 17, speaking of destruction of the Temple of the Bani Israel, it is called Masjid.
They are all structures, tangible, and a place of congregation.
The Temple that was destroyed twice, and still lays in ruin today.
I said nothing about going between Safa and Marwa. I only posted they are signposts of Allah, monuments that show the way to Masjid Al-Haram and the House inside it. Double-bind rhetoric falls in the face of Truth.
It appears I am the one who made the effort.
Peace.
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Not sure why you're trying to divert from the topic. Anyway, have I conducted an exhaustive study of all the words related to the hajj in the quran? No I have not. I have "studied" it in a fairly limited sense in that I have read articles on it and read discussions on it here at the forum. I've also briefly looked at the history of the masjid al-haram, etc. It is quite clear (to me) that ideas were later institutionalized and retroactively attached to certain quranic ideas, not just with regard to the hajj but also other quranic concepts. This should come as no surprise. Any student of the quran, any student of history, should expect such a thing to happen.
Also, I wanted to say that I did not post in this thread until brother ragingaijin "quoted" to an actual verse of the quran (complete with citation) and laid out a text that simply does not exist in the verse itself. We can argue about what the verse means, sure, but to literally say the verse says such and such when it clearly does not, is not okay. It should go without saying that I don't need to have done an exhaustive study of all the concepts of hajj to take issue with such reckless verse-quoting.
Peace.
Then take a look and come to the same conclusion. Or not, the choice is yours.
Insincere readers are diverted from the meaning of the Quran Surah 7146, 1745, 1857, 4144, 3923
Are the small mountains of Safa and Marwa partially enclosed in Masjid Al-Haram today? Yes or no.
Are Safa and Marwa monuments of Allah? Yes or no.
Are these two monuments for pilgrimage? Yes or no.
Pilgrimage to the House? Yes or no.What have I posted that is does not have proof? Feel free to quibble about the way I post, it matters naught to me. I give proofs to back up what I believe, and show in the Quran the reasoning behind it.
As I've seen in the past, there are people here to seek to deceive and mislead. Such is the way of Allah. But as we are taught in the Quran, we know who the enemies of Al-Islam are (Surah 47) and we are taught how to interact with them. I am gentle to the believers, stern toward the unbelievers. If I am wrong, may Allah guide me to a right better than this.
"Muhammad is the Messenger of God, and those who are with him are hard against the unbelievers, merciful one to another. Thou seest them bowing, prostrating, seeking bounty from God and good pleasure. Their mark is on their faces, the trace of prostration. That is their likeness in the Torah, and their likeness in the Gospel as a seed that puts forth its shoot, and strengthens it, and it grows stout and rises straight upon its stalk, pleasing the sowers, that through them He may enrage the unbelievers. God has promised those of them who believe and do deeds of righteousness forgiveness and a mighty wage." Surah 4829
I have made mistakes in the past, and I correct them, insha'Allah. If you can find another Safa and Marwa and give proof they mark the way to the House, then please post the proof and I will check it. If you are correct, I will follow what Allah has revealed and used you to show the Truth.
But until then, I will not follow those who seek to mislead or stray outside of the teachings of the Quran. I have asked Allah to show me the Truth, to grant knowledge to the believers, and He is Bountiful, Provider. He has guided me to the Truth and shown me clear proofs that testify to the teachings of the Quran. Why would I doubt Allah, who is Patron to the believers?
Allah is the best guidance, Allah explains Surah 373, 426, 487,179, 346, 3923, 4144, 456. 5417,22,32,40, 5675-81, 7516-19, 7750, 1035, 73, 2779, 333, 1689
?Allah desires to explain to you, and to guide you into the ways of those before you, and to turn to you (mercifully), and Allah is Knowing, Wise.? Surah 426
"Move not thy tongue therewith to make haste with it. Surely on Us rests the collecting of it and the reciting of it. So when We recite it, follow its recitation. Again on Us rests the explaining of it." Surah 7516-19
I have proof the Quran's Author is the Creator. I have proof in the Quran our Creator will guide and explain to the believer.
But man, who more oft than not seeks to mislead? You must show proofs to back up what you claim.
Explanation is not proof.
The Quran is clear, easy to remember, and a guidance to the believer. You do not need to be a scholar to understand it, contrary to what others would have you believe.
Seek assistance through patience and prayer Surah 245, 2153, 2186
"And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then surely I am very near; I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he calls on Me, so they should answer My call and believe in Me that they may walk in the right way." Surah 2186The Quran is the Book, the Wisdom, complete and fully detailed Surah 1854, 331, 1037, 311-6, 2530,111, 413, 4144, 6114, 752, 12111, 1689
?And certainly We have explained in this Quran every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention.? Surah 1854The Quran is the Wisdom because it teaches you Critical Thinking. Think. Ponder. Meditate on the Quran.
I have given proofs of why I believe all that I do. Falsehood is confronted with Truth of the revelation of Allah. What more needs to be said?
Those who wish to be guided know to turn their faces to Allah and to do His will. Not their own.
Proof Angels and Iblis
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz151UufthwAs far as I am concerned, this conversation is over.
Peace.
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Then take a look and come to the same conclusion. Or not, the choice is yours.
Insincere readers are diverted from the meaning of the Quran Surah 7146, 1745, 1857, 4144, 3923
Are the small mountains of Safa and Marwa partially enclosed in Masjid Al-Haram today? Yes or no.
Are Safa and Marwa monuments of Allah? Yes or no.
Are these two monuments for pilgrimage? Yes or no.
Pilgrimage to the House? Yes or no.What have I posted that is does not have proof? Feel free to quibble about the way I post, it matters naught to me. I give proofs to back up what I believe, and show in the Quran the reasoning behind it.
I normally don't respond to people who are needlessly hostile but you've asked me a few questions so, despite my better judgment, I will respond.
Again, I have not done an exhaustive study so I won't confidently state the various terms we're discussing mean this or that. What I can confidently say at this point is that it is incredibly likely that the interpretation of these terms were institutionalized and attached to the text. I say that because a) the 'hyper-ritualistic' nature of the hajj seems very pagan, b) historical evidence indicates that things didn't play out the way our "scholars" would like us to believe and c) this happens all the time, the forcing of meanings onto text, and the process of nominalization. It is not a conspiracy theory but basic common sense, assuming one understands how the flow of history and politics/power works.
You have not given any proof. As far as I can tell, you have simply stated that Safa and Marwa are what they are because your ancestors/scholars have told you that's what they are, and then you "backed" that up with a Google image showing the names of the two mountains. You're simply misunderstanding the argument, and I'm starting to genuinely question why, because you seem like an intelligent person otherwise.
And I will continue to "quibble" about the way you post, as well as discuss the content of your post. I can do both. You have been very hostile in this thread, for no good reason.
As I've seen in the past, there are people here to seek to deceive and mislead. Such is the way of Allah. But as we are taught in the Quran, we know who the enemies of Al-Islam are (Surah 47) and we are taught how to interact with them. I am gentle to the believers, stern toward the unbelievers. If I am wrong, may Allah guide me to a right better than this.
"Muhammad is the Messenger of God, and those who are with him are hard against the unbelievers, merciful one to another. Thou seest them bowing, prostrating, seeking bounty from God and good pleasure. Their mark is on their faces, the trace of prostration. That is their likeness in the Torah, and their likeness in the Gospel as a seed that puts forth its shoot, and strengthens it, and it grows stout and rises straight upon its stalk, pleasing the sowers, that through them He may enrage the unbelievers. God has promised those of them who believe and do deeds of righteousness forgiveness and a mighty wage." Surah 4829
You are comparing the events of this thread to the situation Muhammad found himself in, wherein he was being physically assaulted by clear unbelievers putting his entire community's life at stake? Really??? Just because there have been people here who seek to deceive and mislead does not automatically mean ayman or I am one of those people. What is your criterion for an unbeliever? Someone who disagrees with you on the particular interpretation of a quranic issue? That's what it appears to me.
I admire your zeal to do what you think is right but your hostility is misplaced. The entire world is not against you. We have gathered on this forum to discuss the quran. We disagree on interpretations, and we discuss them. This is what quranic study is all about. Why the hostility?
The timeline of this thread went simply like this
- raginggaijin expressed that a verse literally said something when it clearly did not.
- ayman asked raginggaijing to remove the reference because the verse did not literally say that.
- raginggaijin called ayman (and soon, myself as well) an unbeliever.
What exactly makes me or ayman an unbeliever? The fact that we take issue with your reckless verse-quoting?
I have made mistakes in the past, and I correct them, insha'Allah. If you can find another Safa and Marwa and give proof they mark the way to the House, then please post the proof and I will check it. If you are correct, I will follow what Allah has revealed and used you to show the Truth.
But until then, I will not follow those who seek to mislead or stray outside of the teachings of the Quran. I have asked Allah to show me the Truth, to grant knowledge to the believers, and He is Bountiful, Provider. He has guided me to the Truth and shown me clear proofs that testify to the teachings of the Quran. Why would I doubt Allah, who is Patron to the believers?
The idea that one cannot dispute the validity of a rendered interpretation without first giving a definite meaning himself is, quite simply, fallacious. So, because I don't know the exact meanings of certain concepts, I have to simply bow my head to what the scholars have stated the meanings are? Hardly.
These sorts of arguments have been used throughout history in all arenas of life. When abolitionists were trying to ban slavery in the U.S. for moral reasons, one common rejoinder from slave-owners was that there didn't exist a better economic system that could survive without slaves. In other words, they were saying "show us your proof that what we're doing is not right, show us how you'll replace our system." Do you see the similarity? Just because I don't know exactly how to replace the slave-holding system doesn't make the institution of slavery any more moral or correct. Lack of an alternative theory is not justification for the validity of the "mainstream" theory.
Allah is the best guidance, Allah explains Surah 373, 426, 487,179, 346, 3923, 4144, 456. 5417,22,32,40, 5675-81, 7516-19, 7750, 1035, 73, 2779, 333, 1689
?Allah desires to explain to you, and to guide you into the ways of those before you, and to turn to you (mercifully), and Allah is Knowing, Wise.? Surah 426
"Move not thy tongue therewith to make haste with it. Surely on Us rests the collecting of it and the reciting of it. So when We recite it, follow its recitation. Again on Us rests the explaining of it." Surah 7516-19
I have proof the Quran's Author is the Creator. I have proof in the Quran our Creator will guide and explain to the believer.
But man, who more oft than not seeks to mislead? You must show proofs to back up what you claim.
Explanation is not proof.
The Quran is clear, easy to remember, and a guidance to the believer. You do not need to be a scholar to understand it, contrary to what others would have you believe.
Seek assistance through patience and prayer Surah 245, 2153, 2186
"And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then surely I am very near; I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he calls on Me, so they should answer My call and believe in Me that they may walk in the right way." Surah 2186The Quran is the Book, the Wisdom, complete and fully detailed Surah 1854, 331, 1037, 311-6, 2530,111, 413, 4144, 6114, 752, 12111, 1689
?And certainly We have explained in this Quran every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention.? Surah 1854The Quran is the Wisdom because it teaches you Critical Thinking. Think. Ponder. Meditate on the Quran.
I have given proofs of why I believe all that I do. Falsehood is confronted with Truth of the revelation of Allah. What more needs to be said?
Those who wish to be guided know to turn their faces to Allah and to do His will. Not their own.
Proof Angels and Iblis
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz151UufthwAs far as I am concerned, this conversation is over.
Peace.
It's funny you espouse critical thinking, when it's quite clear you're content to not use it yourself. Additionally, I never said you have to be a scholar to understand the quran. Again, shades of gray. Just because the core message is simple does not mean that one cannot question the accepted mainstream interpretation of various concepts. I urge you to think critically, to study up on history to realize how things typically play out and indeed how they did play out in Islamic history, etc.
I'm assuming you are here on this forum because you eschew the use of ahadith and realize there were many hypocrites who used ahadith to further their own agenda. If that is the case, why are you so diametrically opposed to the idea that similar actors used other methods to further their agenda? Namely, the forcing of meanings onto the text.
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peace CD,
You may be aware of this post already, but
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8795.msg40400#msg40400Peace Wakas,
I hadn't seen that post, thank you. It jives with what I understood based on other readings, that many of the terms used with regard to the concept of hajj have to do with animals/food/feast. The lack of 'ila' in between 'hajja' and 'albayta' is also pretty illuminating, as you pointed out.
Check your PM Wakas. Question about PRL.
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peace CD,
The lack of 'ila' in between 'hajja' and 'albayta' is also pretty illuminating, as you pointed out.
I have repeatedly pointed out this deception. It is prevalent in almost all translations, including the free-minds one.
As a side note, I just realised the potentially significant implications of my point 4. Consider sequence, and see in conjunction with http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597976
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Surah 2278- You shall strive for the cause of GOD as you should strive for His cause. He has chosen you and has placed no hardship on you in practicing your religion - the religion of your father Abraham. He is the one who named you "Submitters" originally. Thus, the messenger shall serve as a witness among you, and you shall serve as witnesses among the people. Therefore, you shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and hold fast to GOD; He is your Lord, the best Lord and the best Supporter.
Is religion easy? yes hajj no hajj why hajj?
Questions
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If the Holy Shrine (Kaba) or the Sacred Masjid or the House that Abraham and his son built for Allah/Humanity was in Possesion of the Pegans...Where was it Located?
*For one Option, Mecca is known for having pegan idols...before Muhammad PBUH. -
If The Holy Shrine/House built by Abraham was taken over by Pegans But later was taken over my Muhammad and his Army...where was this at? Well, it would make sense that Saudi Arabia (the place of Prophet Muhammad) was the place here He had the most Opposition and war, and was the 1st place he conqured. It could be compelety relevent to think it was probabily the Kaba in Mecca?
3),If Mecca was just some Pegan Place where evil satanic people worshiped a Black Cube Box and places a Black Stone (meteorite) there, The Prophet Muhammad takes over Mecca...A) Why didnt He Destory the Kaba? (Did He?) and B) You mean to tell me that even after he died... the satanic pegans STILL WON and kept their black Box except now blended their satanic beliefs with Islam? For example... (Before Muhammad) it was Saudi Peganism 2.0...and After Muhammad it was MEGA NEW AND IMPROVED Peganism 10.0?
I mean wow... thats a hard one to swallow...4)if Ayman and everyone who disbelieves in Hajj and the Kaba in Mecca, and believes in the Conspiracy that it was Pegan satanic people who came with a new and improved form of peganism to delude the people into praying to Allah at the pegan black box... My question is Why would they do so OR MORE importanly WHAT would they gain from this?
^ For instance, If you were an evil satanic pegan...and there was a bunch of dumb muslims who were to follow you...what would you essentially GAIN from them Praying to their GOD at YOUR pegan Shrine? I guess the Obvious Physical Benifits such as Money... But This is what I dont get... Mecca was known for being an Oppressive Capitalist City that Thrived off the Sacrifices (money) that Traveling Tourists gave to go and do Hajj at the Kabba. So then we are told Muhammad Beat them and Won and there was no more evil exploitation....here is my question...Where did these people Get this Ritual from? (abraham)?
And So far my LAST Question.... Does ANYBODY know of the Name of the Pegan Religion or have a Book about the Religion where a bunch of Pegan Arabs go into the Desert of Mecca and pray at a black Cube Box? IS there any such religon? So far I belive this Originated from Abraham, however it was Not pegan in orgin rather it was taken over by pegans, then later taken over by Muhammad, and then now taken over agin by Pegans...Only to Hopefully be taken BACK by Quranic Monotheists who follow the religion of abraham...( but I guess some dont think abraham did such things..., then again...some dont even think Prayer is even a practice practiced by Abraham or prophets...so here we go again...) yuck
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Selam RA786
When the oil runs out the truth will be revealled.
Peace
Can you elabarate more on that?
Is that a Literal or a metephoric expression?Oil running out (literal) of Saudi Arabia?
and What Truth is to be revealed?*sorry, I am not a fan of suprises or expressions...I need a bold cold cut answer with no strings attached. straightforeward! D
Salaam -
Can you elabarate more on that?
Salaam
Selam
Its exactly as it is mentioned. At the moment no one can go into Arabia and do an independant archaeological digs to varify anything. Everything is covered up or sold to you and me in a nice package that fits their intepretation. As people wise up and they lose their wealth the country will be more open, in my opinion anyways.
Peace
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peace RA786,
Does ANYBODY know of the Name of the Pegan Religion or have a Book about the Religion where a bunch of Pegan Arabs go into the Desert of Mecca and pray at a black Cube Box? IS there any such religon?
Not in Mecca as this name is not mentioned pre-Quran in any source. I believe bro Ayman mentions this practice in one of his articles. Stone idol worship was fairly prevalent in the region, as testified by AQ itself. Also, I know in Lane's Lexicon he states "k3b (root of kaaba) shares the same name as a house/temple which was circuited/compassed by the tribe of Rabee'ah" and suggests Al-Lat was also circuited/compassed. There is probably a ton of info here and there, but I have not studied it specifically. Bro Ayman will likely know more about it.
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@ra786 Is religion easy? yes hajj no hajj why hajj?
Here's my writeup about how many Jews and Christians misunderstand the Arabic 'hajj' and mistranslate it as feast/festival/sacrifice based on their Biblical background
Hajj in the Bible. (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599972.0)
