al Masjid al Haram and al Masjid al Aqsa
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Peace raginggaijin, Wakas, TheGod , all
I can say that we know where the House is located because you have to go around Safa and Marwa to get there
Why base soul upon? As AQ clearly implies whatever safa and marwa are, they are optional.
The idea of safa and marwa being optional is pretty interesting. It would indeed be some feast without safa (cooking stone and livestock) and marwa (cooking fire).
in my humble opinion, Brother Wakas and TheGod missed a little detail, but Brother raginggaijin had obviously lied
OK, Let's read this verse again
(2158
Inna alssafa waalmarwata min shaAAairi Allahi faman hajja albayta awi iAAtamara fala junaha AAalayhi an yattawwafa bihima waman tatawwaAAa khayran fainna Allaha shakirun AAaleemun
2158
"Safa and Marwah are signs of Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them." Surah 2158as you can see, it is not the safaa and marwa that are optional, it is GOING AROUND THEM which is OPTIONAL. Hence , raginggaijin's claim that you HAVE to GO around Them IN ORDER to reach THE HOUSE is absolutly FALSE , and that causes his "circular Argument" (he calls it Proof brickwall ) to crash !!
Moreover, even IF we assume that
1- safa and marwa = two small mountains.
2- shaAiri = signs
3- yaTTaWafa = Going around
4- Hajj = Pilgrimageit'll still be clear from ANY translation of the verse that
1 - one can do the "HAJJ" even if he Does NOT ''yaTTaWafa" by "Safa and Marwa" !! and so, whatever the true meaning of the words between " " actually is.
2 - one can still do "yaTTaWafa" by "safa and marwa" without having his "Hajj" nullified !! and so, whatever the true meaning of the words between " " actually is.i hope i This helps.
@raiginggaijin
is "there is no blame if you do this" sounds for you like "you have to do this" ??
is what i wrote above resort to any kind of Ad HOMINEM and Double-blind Rhetoric ?Salam
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@quickduck as you can see, it is not the safaa and marwa that are optional
That's a fine observation. But wakas says that whatever safa and marwa be, the Quran clearly implies that they are optional. Looks like he is also obviously lying? (Looks like meat's back on the menu, guys)
What do you think about the "khayran" part of the verse?
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@quickduck as you can see, it is not the safaa and marwa that are optional
That's a fine observation. But wakas says that whatever safa and marwa be, the Quran clearly implies that they are optional. Looks like he is also obviously lying? (Looks like meat's back on the menu, guys)
No, i read from brother Wakas quite a lot, he may mistake or miss details (like all of us do) but i never caught him lying.
What do you think about the "khayran" part of the verse?
We should first translate the word "taTaWWa3a" . the word "Khayran" is not the big deal
as far as i know, the word "tatawwa3" (ع in Today's arabic means "being volunteer"
i think i should look further for more translations to see if it fits the context. but the very context of this verse is a problem because we all don't agree yet on the true meaning of the several keywords in that same verse ( safa and marwa, hajj, yaTTawafa, etc...)salam
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""Safa and Marwah are signs of Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them.""
So God wants to highlight the going around stones as something like a pagan practice of worshiping and going around stone idols and tells the Hajj visitors its no blame even if they go around the stones as a ritual or unknowingly?
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""Safa and Marwah are signs of Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them.""
So God wants to highlight the going around stones as something like a pagan practice of worshiping and going around stone idols and tells the Hajj visitors its no blame even if they go around the stones as a ritual or unknowingly?
Of Course not.
And that leads us to the FACT that the traditional translation/meaning could be nothing else than False, thus resulting from pagan beliefs. )
Salam
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@quickduck Why double standards? If wakas can make a mistake so can somebody else.
What do you think "being volunteer" for khayr implies?
I might have caught one. Watch.
@amin So God wants to highlight the going around stones as something like a pagan practice
Where did you get that God wants to highlight anything as "something a pagan practice"?
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"Safa and Marwah are signs of Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them.""
Just my question, based on the translation above. since in there.. "there is no blame on him if he goes round them."
Even we consider those "Safa and Marwah are mountains, can you explain if the above translation is right, what God means by the words highlighted? -
Jeez, again
@amin So God wants to highlight the going around stones as something like a pagan practice
Where did you get that God wants to highlight anything as "something like a pagan practice"?
The "modify" button is your friend, it avoids double-posting.
Why double standards? If wakas can make a mistake so can somebody else.
it is not resort of double standards, making mistakes is not the big deal, not to admit them IS .
raginggaijin stills believes in "Final Fantasy XIII-like" stories where Muhammed traveled from "Al-Masjid al-Haram" to "Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa" riding "the Buraq" (which is an animal white and long, larger than a donkey but smaller than a mule, who would place its hoof at a distance equal to the range of vision. ref al-Bukhari). This very "GOD of WAR-Like" Story is where the myth of five daily salat find its root (and only). And it is because of this same Legend that some believes that "al-masjid al haram" is in Mecca, and "al-masjid al aqsa" is in Jerusalem.
salam
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I avoid using 'modify' button. But I like to see it all the same.
Let us see which one of them admits to his mistake.
Did you hear raginggaijin say all that? This is serious. Solemn.
What about the "being volunteer" for khayr. What does it refer to? Any inputs on that?
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Let us see which one of them admits to his mistake.
Did you hear raginggaijin say all that? This is serious. Solemn.
I apologize to raginggaijin for mistaking, i've just verified and found that i mixed up what i read from another member's post. (
i admit he never said that literally but i would like him to tell us where did he came up with all these "proofs" from ?
What about the "being volunteer" for khayr. What does it refer to? Any inputs on that?
and what 2 small mountains and passing/going around them has to do with "being vounteer" for khayr ??
salam
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"2 small mountains and passing/going around them"? Ha ha....not that.
What do you propose "being volunteer" for khayr references? Is it related to AlSafa and AlMarwa, or something else?
it's clear from the verse that "being volunteer" for khayr is related to an act of "taTwwafa" by/with/around the "safa and marwa".
to resolve this issue, we should first agree with a clear meaning of the words between " "
salam