al Masjid al Haram and al Masjid al Aqsa

RA786

And by the way, I believe the saying is "rocket science" not "rocket surgery".

laugh rotfl

raginggaijin

Peace raginggaijin,

I will try and stay on point, and ignore your superfluous commentary.

You first say it is "stones set up", then say "stones set up for sacrifices". The latter is more specific than the former.

So are you following what I say or are you following what the Quran says? I have given proofs from the Quran, have you not checked them?

I prefer accuracy, hence my requests of you.

I've said it once, I'll say it again. I am not a guide, nor am I responsible for you. Study the Quran diligently, and be not dependent on my opinion.

Allah says not to sacrifice on stones set up, be they altars or idols. I stand behind the revelation of Allah, the word of the Prophet, the Quran. I will not do it.

Unfortunately for you, the Arabic says otherwise. Let me make it clear for you what 53 says, the animals/food forbidden to us are

wama thubiha AAala al nnusubi
and what slaughtered/sacrificed on the altars / idolatrous altars

Pay attention to the word in bold. Further, the verb "thubiha" is in the passive perfect, meaning an action done/completed, and the subject (i.e. animal) received the action expressed in the verb.

Thus, your above statement is refuted 100%.

How so? What are you striving to sacrifice upon the altar? As said at the beginning

They are not stones (hijarat). Surah 1054
They are not idols (sanam). Surah 674
"The day when they shall come forth in haste from the graves, as though to the altar herded." Surah 7043
"Yawma yakhrujoona mina al-ajdathi siraAAan kaannahum ila nusubin yoofidoona" Surah 7043

Again, Allah says not to do it in Surah 53. Period. If you choose to sacrifice animals on stones set up, and rationalize it away, that is your choice. No one is making you do it.

And what does Allah tell us to do with the sacrifices of Hajj? We are to "eat of them and feed the poor man who is contented and the beggar" Surah 2236

So we are to eat of this food, the camels, a sign of Allah and His bounty for men.

Are we supposed to eat animals sacrificed on altars/idols/stones set up? No.

So back to your Safa is a stone, Marwa is a fire theory What do you do with the stone, Wakas? Do you sacrifice upon it, like an altar? If you do, you are not allowed to eat the meat as per Surah 53.

So what again is refuted, Wakas?

You confirmed what I said. Thank you.

If the obelisk is set up to be worshipped or as a symbol for idolatry, then no, I am not ok with that, and neither is AQ. I am not against stones being set up per se, and neither is AQ, e.g. this is common practice in construction/buildings, and I am not against houses/buildings, I dont know about you.

Thank you for your admission. The Truth has come and that which is hidden has become manifest.

Allah knows your heart and your thoughts. You know this is not about building a house, as the word for stone is different.
As you strive to make a play on words, making a mockery of the revelation of Allah to follow your Free Will, that is on you. I am clear of what you do.

May Allah protect the believers from the whispers of the satans.

And by the way, I believe the saying is "rocket science" not "rocket surgery".

Your ignorance is showing.

Rocket Surgery
n. a task requiring intelligence or higher education; a difficult undertaking; a play on words which mixes two common metaphors "rocket science" and "brain surgery" Subjects English
Editorial Note Often used jocularly in negative constructions similar to ?It?s not rocket surgery.? Etymological Note A blend of rocket science and brain surgery.

http//media.threadless.com/subs/big/46364.gif

Enjoy the update on your vernacular. Next time Google is your friend.

http//tinyurl.com/yly7p2s

"The life of this world is made to seem fair to those who disbelieve, and they mock those who believe, and those who guard shall be above them on the day of resurrection; and Allah gives means of subsistence to whom he pleases without measure." Surah 2212

"O you who believe! let not people laugh at people perchance they may be better than they, nor let women at women, perchance they may be better than they; and do not find fault with your own people nor call one another by nicknames; evil is a bad name after faith, and whoever does not turn, these it is that are the unjust." Surah 4911

"But you took them for a mockery until they made you forget My remembrance and you used to laugh at them." Surah 23110

Since you insist on playing word games, I am done with you, Wakas.

"And when you see those who enter into false discourses about Our communications, withdraw from them until they enter into some other discourse, and if the Shaitan causes you to forget, then do not sit after recollection with the unjust people." Surah 668

To you are your deeds, and to me are mine. I am not responsible for you, nor am I a guardian.

May Allah increase the believers in knowledge.
May Allah increase the unjust in naught but destruction.
May Allah curse the liars.
May Allah continue to guide us to the Truth.

Peace.

RA786

Rocket Surgery
n. a task requiring intelligence or higher education; a difficult undertaking; a play on words which mixes two common metaphors "rocket science" and "brain surgery" Subjects English
Editorial Note Often used jocularly in negative constructions similar to ?It?s not rocket surgery.? Etymological Note A blend of rocket science and brain surgery.

bravo rotfl laugh x5

Now Now, everyone.....Lets Not Get too Personal... I enjoyed the Comic Relief from Both Wakas and Raginggaijin

Right now, I am dumbfounded....I just dont understand....

1)Why would Prophet Muhammad Stay in Saudi Arabia instead of Jerusalem (Modernday Israel)?

-Wouldnt it make more sense for Him to live in Jeruslaem if THAT is where the True Qibla/House is?

Also, why would these Sunnipengan distorters Intentionally Name two mountains in Mecca (Safa and Marwa) in an effort to INTENTIONALLY Delude Quran-followers(Muslims) into performing a FALSE Hajj? Also, Why would the "Muslims" RULE from Mecca and Medina instead of Rule from Jerusalem?

These are questions that confuse me. Why wouldnt the Muslims "Headcouters" be in Jerusalem in stead of Saudi Arabia?
Many people try to answer this by saying that the Meccan's wanted Political Power?

So they waited till Muhammad Died to infultrate, Distort and then Rule from Mecca? ???
Why wouldnt Muhammad Rule from Jeruslaem?-like the other prophets?

And HAS ANYONE DONE HAJJ IN JERUSALEM? ANYONE AT ALL? or IS ther anyone you have heard about doing it in this day in age?

raginggaijin

bravo rotfl laugh x5

Now Now, everyone.....Lets Not Get too Personal... I enjoyed the Comic Relief from Both Wakas and Raginggaijin

Right now, I am dumbfounded....I just dont understand....

1)Why would Prophet Muhammad Stay in Saudi Arabia instead of Jerusalem (Modernday Israel)?

-Wouldnt it make more sense for Him to live in Jeruslaem if THAT is where the True Qibla/House is?

Also, why would these Sunnipengan distorters Intentionally Name two mountains in Mecca (Safa and Marwa) in an effort to INTENTIONALLY Delude Quran-followers(Muslims) into performing a FALSE Hajj? Also, Why would the "Muslims" RULE from Mecca and Medina instead of Rule from Jerusalem?

These are questions that confuse me. Why wouldnt the Muslims "Headcouters" be in Jerusalem in stead of Saudi Arabia?
Many people try to answer this by saying that the Meccan's wanted Political Power?

So they waited till Muhammad Died to infultrate, Distort and then Rule from Mecca? ???
Why wouldnt Muhammad Rule from Jeruslaem?-like the other prophets?

And HAS ANYONE DONE HAJJ IN JERUSALEM? ANYONE AT ALL? or IS ther anyone you have heard about doing it in this day in age?

RA786,

Pray for guidance. Surah 245

Leave it alone, and turn to Allah in patience and prayer. Come to this another time, or when Allah guides you to it. You will know, have faith.

Allah is All Mighty, Wise, Seer. If you are sincere, He will guide you to the Truth.

First Pray for guidance. Surah 245, 2186
And read the Quran. Surah 961

May Allah grant you a goodly provision in this life and in the Hereafter, and spare you from the chastisement of the Fire.

Peace and blessings.

quickduck

Allah says not to sacrifice on stones set up, be they altars or idols. I stand behind the revelation of Allah, the word of the Prophet, the Quran. I will not do it.

How so? What are you striving to sacrifice upon the altar? As said at the beginning

Again, Allah says not to do it in Surah 53. Period. If you choose to sacrifice animals on stones set up, and rationalize it away, that is your choice. No one is making you do it.

And what does Allah tell us to do with the sacrifices of Hajj? We are to "eat of them and feed the poor man who is contented and the beggar" Surah 2236

So we are to eat of this food, the camels, a sign of Allah and His bounty for men.

Are we supposed to eat animals sacrificed on altars/idols/stones set up? No.

So back to your Safa is a stone, Marwa is a fire theory What do you do with the stone, Wakas? Do you sacrifice upon it, like an altar? If you do, you are not allowed to eat the meat as per Surah 53.

So what again is refuted, Wakas?

Salam all,

come on guys, let's read 2158 again...

God says "there is NO blame" ...for the one DOING the "hajj" to do the act of '' yaTTawwaFa" on/by/with "safaa and marwa".

What i can understand from this verse is that "yattawwafa by safaa and marwa" (whatever does this mean) is actually FORBIDDEN, except during the hajj time where GOD allowed us to do it (there is no blame during hajj, although it's forbidden all the time and everywhere/when else) !!!!!!

Hence, this verse talks about an exception, NOT a rule !

so let's now assume for a minute, that "yattawwafa by safaa and marwa" means "sacrify on stones".

It really makes sense that although it is FORBIDDEN all the time, God ALLOWED it for a specified period, providing that we have to do it ONLY in a matter of remembering God and feeding the poor.

I hope this helps.

Salam

herbman

Peace to all,

I think the right question to be asked is

Do we have to follow superstions or logic?

what is the reading all about?
what is the purpoise of HAJJ according to the Reading?
If 2 mounts are part of the "sacred house", what kind of sign is it?
etc etc

Peace

quickduck

Peace to all,

......

If 2 mounts are part of the "sacred house", what kind of sign is it?
.....

Peace Herbman, all

raigingaijin claims that the 2 moutains are a SIGN that shows us the way we HAVE to GO through in order to reach the Kaaba.
For him, this sign is a kind of " traffic sign " (circulation) , or like the Lighthouse used by the boats to reach the coast. rotfl

Wakas

Peace raginggaijin,

You now say "Allah says not to sacrifice on stones set up, be they altars or idols." then later in your post say "Do you sacrifice upon it, like an altar? If you do, you are not allowed to eat the meat as per Surah 53.".

It seems you are confused as to what 53 says, so let us clarify, I shall re-quote myself

Unfortunately for you, the Arabic says otherwise. Let me make it clear for you what 53 says, the animals/food forbidden to us are

wama thubiha AAala al nnusubi
and what slaughtered/sacrificed on the altars / idolatrous altars

Pay attention to the word in bold. Further, the verb "thubiha" is in the passive perfect, meaning an action done/completed, and the subject (i.e. animal) received the action expressed in the verb.

It is 100% clear from 53 what is forbidden and that is meat/animals slaughtered on the (idolatrous) altars, NOT the general act of slaughtering on a stone set up as you seemingly imply.

Once you clarify what you take from 53, and are consistent with it, then we can discuss your other points.

Oh, and thanks for the jocular application of "rocket surgery", I did not know that. Guess I missed your "jocular" reference in amongst your tirade.

peace quickduck,
Interesting thought with the no blame upon them, and why. I already discussed this in the hajj/feast/debate thread, but what you said can add an additional point to what I said. The evidence is mounting up.

RA786

Peace Herbman, all

raigingaijin claims that the 2 moutains are a SIGN that shows us the way we HAVE to GO through in order to reach the Kaaba.
For him, this sign is a kind of " traffic sign " (circulation) , or like the Lighthouse used by the boats to reach the coast. rotfl

To be honest thats exactly what I thought (or think) the Sighns are For the Following Reason.

The Quran is constant in History menaing it is relevent to both the Past,Present, and Future.
-So, Obviously in our day in age....The Qibla, Holy Shrine, and Masjid Al-haram was LOST.
Would it be Illogical to think that in an effort to keep the Qibla (holy shrine/masjid-Al-Harem) KNOWN...a Sighn is Needed? Sign as in a Landmark or some sort?
A Wall can be destroyed....a Stone can be Detroyed...a Stick in the Ground can be detroyed...heck...EVEN the Ka'bah HAS been destroyed a Bunch of times...
what is somthing can Cannot Easily be destroyed by Man's Hands?---Moreover... What landmark for THOUSANDS of years CANNOT be destroyed by ANYTHING other than the Earth?

AnswerA Mountain!, thats my logic/justification for somekind of Landmark that would be easily identifiable and Durable so people can find it.

Let me ask this Question to all of you.

Is it at all possible that Safa and Marwa Do infact mean Stone set for Sacrificing (or as Wakas pointed out) BUT ALSO is the NAME of two mountains that the people of Mecca named? Can we BOTH be right?

For instance, Here raises another Question... In Pretty much ALL Histroy that can be obtained (please Correct me if I am Wrong)....People Both MUSLIM and NON-MUSLIM have ALWAYS called the two mountains in Mecca (Safa and Marwa). They to my knowledge (please correct me If I am Wrong) have NEVER been called Anything other than Safa and Mawra (or at least thats why Prophet Muhammad's people at his time Called them).

So if these ARE the Official Names OF the Mountains and We intrepret them as such...Does this Change ot make the Verse Illogical? Allah speaks to Men in HIS language. If in the Classical Arabic Language of Mecca 600AD, Safra and Marwa Ment (definition what Waka posted) but ALSO were the Names of two Mountains....
which one do you think the people Followed? according to Traditionalist Muslims...It would be the Mountains. What do you all think? would that be Confusing?

Why would they name the two mountains those names?

RA786

Wakas, in your intrepretation....
why would your view of Safa and Mawrah be Quote Indeed, a§-êafa and al-Marwah are among the symbols of Allah.?

Why/how would the Camel and Heavy Goat milk be two Monumentus Sighns/Symbols/workings of/decrees of Allah?
and then my next question would be 1)how is that relevent to Hajj and also 2) How do you Circle/walk around them?

Question for Anybody else Is there any History of Pre-Islamic People Sacrificing Animals (or humans) on these Two Knolls(mountains)?
Why would the Deliberatly Name these two structures Safa(Rock) and Marwah (Flint Stone)?

hope4

Selam

Is there evidene that Safa and Marwa were the names of these mountains pre-Islami times?

Or could it have come from this story

In Islamic tradition, Ibrahim was commanded by Allah to leave his wife Hagar and their infant son alone in the desert, with only basic provisions, to test their faith. The place was between Al-Safa and Al-Marwah. When their provisions were exhausted, Hagar went in search of help or water. To make her search easier and faster, she went alone, leaving the infant Ishmael on the ground. She first climbed the nearest hill, Al-Safa, to look over the surrounding area. When she saw nothing, she then went to the other hill, Al-Marwah, to look around. While Hagar was on either hillside, she was able to see Ishmael and know he was safe. However, when she was in the valley between the hills she was unable to see her son. Thus Hagar would run while in the valley between the hills and walk at a normal pace while on the hillsides.

Hagar travelled back and forth between the hills seven times in the scorching heat before she returned to Ishmael. When she arrived, she found that a spring had sprouted forth from the crying baby kicking at the sand with his feet. This spring is now known as the Zamzam Well. This Zamzam Well was granted from the angels of Allah to reward Hagar. ana ahmed we ana moslem

peace

RA786

Peace Hope4,
Yes , Right, I have heard this Hadith a couple times.

Here is some Issues though.

Hagar,Ishmael, and Abraham was in Babalonian times...(before Moses and the egyptian fight, and obviously before Muhammad)
...So Is it possible that this Story of Hagar emerged 1st and then the Pegan Story about a Godess running forth with a Baby and such (that Ayman posted) Emereged 2nd and was BASED off of the 1st?--(just with added distortions and Added innovations?)
If we can PROVE as much as possible that the NAMES of the two Hills have ALWAYS BEEN Safa and Mawrah, can we then agree that Intrepereting them as such in the Quran isnt really That Illogical?

hope4

If we can PROVE as much as possible that the NAMES of the two Hills have ALWAYS BEEN Safa and Mawrah, can we then agree that Intrepereting them as such in the Quran isnt really That Illogical?

Selam RA786

The question is how to prove it? ancient maps might be the answer if any of you have any lying around ;D

peace

RA786

Selam RA786

The question is how to prove it? ancient maps might be the answer if any of you have any lying around ;D

peace

Brother Rajj... explained to me that Ancient Roman Mansucripts beared the sames Safa and Mawra (for these hills), as well as ANY search on google.
So the question now is are we going to DENY Calling these two Hills Safa and Mawrah because We cannot Find an Ancient Map that says So?-Thus being Guilty of a Logical Fallacy?

Or are we going to ACCEPT these two Hills as "Safa and Mawra" because All of our Reasearch "SO FAR" says So...?--Thus STILL guilty of a Logical Fallacy?
I choose to Accept this Theory until Proven otherwise. rather then stay in Limbo like an Agnostic not being able to Prove or disprove ANYTHING.

I read the Same Thread on Edips 19.org and had some interesting things here http//19.org/forum/index.php/m/55649/0/?srch=Hajj#msg_55649

I think that the Quran IS talking about Safa and Mawra being Mountains... All mof my logic so far points More to this then to Goats milk and Stone for sacrificing that you make circles around.

D peace

herbman

Peace,

the only mountain named in the Reading is Tur sinina, Mt Sinai, and nobody knows where it is. Safa and Marwa are not described as mountain in the Reading cause NO TUR before the nouns safa and marwa. The same occurs for valley of Bakka, no valley "wadi" before Bakka as AL "bialwadi almuqaddasi tuwan " (Behold, thy Lord did call to him in the sacred valley to Tuwa) 7816

To make it short no way to know if it is a noun or a proper name in arabic, how do you think Allah swt would do to let you know it?

Regards

RA786

Peace,

the only mountain named in the Reading is Tur sinina, Mt Sinai, and nobody knows where it is. Safa and Marwa are not described as mountain in the Reading cause NO TUR before the nouns safa and marwa. The same occurs for valley of Bakka, no valley "wadi" before Bakka as AL "bialwadi almuqaddasi tuwan " (Behold, thy Lord did call to him in the sacred valley to Tuwa) 7816

To make it short no way to know if it is a noun or a proper name in arabic, how do you think Allah swt would do to let you know it?

Regards

Salaam Herb thanks for your reply. okay so they are not called "mtountains"...more specifically Knolls or Hills. whatever.
Nobody knows where mt.sinai is? I've heard that it is in Saudi Arabia. have you seen the documentary on that?..who knows...
anyway...to me the context makes more sense as (saf and mawra being hills)

What makes more sense to you herb? How do you intrepret the verese?
Peace.

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace all

While I am pretty busy at the moment preparing for a conference, hajj is something that is currently a subject that I am investigating, so I thought I'd most this contribution.

The following is something I posted on another thread that seemed to come to an abrupt end after my post. I'm not sure why this happened as I would was looking forward to some input on my findings. While these findings are still a work in progress, I have copied & pasted from the other thread below. I look forward to some comments & hope that it adds some food for thought in the current thread.

Peace All

I have recently started looking at the concept of hajj in preparation for our quranic discussion group. I am in the process of studying it & have looked at 2158. This is how I have interpreted it. As I said, my study of this subject is a work in progress, so your comments will be welcome.

I have found to mean "the clarification" based on its primary root verb meaning of "he clarified/brought clarity, etc."
When looking at , I found it difficult to pinpoint a root verb for what most consider to be the root, i.e "miim-raa-waw". I then considered the possibility of the root being "miim-raa-alif". This pointed to a root verb indcating a process by which one extracts that which is wholesome/good, etc.
seems to indicate intimate knowledge from its root verb.
When I looked at , I found that the it incorporated the idea of a debate/argument in the sense of overcoming someone through the use of evidence, which seems to be a common understanding on this forum. I also noticed that "to aim at something or having a goal in mind", also it has a meaning of "curing or repairing" something. This last meaning may be mostly in relation to the curing of a head wound, which could be extended to " curing the wrong thinking about something (or maybe this extension is stretching it too far?). Either way, I have come to a meaning of "aiming at the curing of wrong thinking through the use of evidence" or "correcting an erroneous concept through the presentation of strong evidence/arguments".
I was surprised to see that the word is derived from a root that carries a meaning of spending the night awake considering any number of things (good or bad).
The word , being form 8 of the verb would indicate the act that results if the form 1 verb was initiated. Therefore I think that in this case it would indicate that the living/acting out of the conclusions reached through the deliberation of , which at its culmination will provide the most convincing evidence that of the decisions taken since the benefits will be plain for all to see.
indicates acknowledgment of efforts by providing abundantly.

Using these conclusions, this is how I would interpret the verse

Truly the clarification and extraction of what is good from the intimate knowledge possessed by God is for those who aim at correcting/curing/repairing erroneous concepts through the presentation of strong evidence/arguments, staying awake at night to ponder these concepts or living the conclusions reached through such deliberation and in so doing provide the ultimate proof of these concepts through their concrete results. There is no blame on him if he moves about and attaches himself to them (clarification and extraction). And they who effect the obedience of what is good, then truly God is acknowledging of the efforts of such people by providing abundant nourishment as proof of their success, Knowledgable.

Imraan

hope4

Selam

May help.

http//www.scribd.com/doc/19742957/Aad-and-Thamud

peace

Wakas

peace RA786,

I recommend reading the link I posted in this very thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8795.msg40400#msg40400

RA786

Thank you Wakas, Ill check it out. D

Thanks hope4 for that article at Scribes, I read it...

Here the thing though, IF We are to believe that Jerusalam in where the Masjid-Al-harem is (hajj to be condictued)
Is this Still possible in these days? Especially with a totally satanic-zinost government in power in isreal?
This may be off topic, i just find it ironic that the City of Peace and Supposed to be City of God is now totally pegan,zionist,satanic and non-religious.

and another Question. To prevent Confusion...Why doesnt The Quran Just SAY the City where Hajj is to be Performed?
Like just SAY Jerusalam or Mecca?

(Allah forgive me for questioning,)

And Why wouldnt Muhammad Convnice the Sahaba (and Muslims) to Travel to Jerusalem with him and then Put and END to the Kab'ah?
Really think about that Question...again...

WHY DIDNT MUHAMMAD Go with the Muslims to Jerusalam and put an END to the Kab'ah?
WHY? I would really really like to know...