Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
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Peace Edip,
Ayman again is repeating his deceptive debate and diatribe.
I actually posted this almost a year ago. You still haven't come out and courageously and honestly shared the complete truth about Kahlifa's failed trials with everyone. Just tell everyone what were his failed trials or at least tell us how many they were and then let people decide what is trivial and what is not. Why hide this incovenient truth? What are you afraid of? I think that you know as much as I do that revealing this truth would spell the doom of Code 19.
No other trials would trivialize the fact that the number of Chapters in the Quran are 114, exactly 19x6. But, those who are well-described by 7146 tried and will continue to try to find an excuse, any excuse to reject this well known Quranic fact.
No other trials would trivialize the fact that the opening statement of all chapters except one has exactly 19 letters. But, those who are well-described by 7146 tried and will continue to try to find an excuse, any excuse to reject this well known Quranic fact.
No other trials would trivialize the fact that the number of chapters between the only missing Basmala and the only missing Basmala are exactly 19 chapters. But, those who are well-described by 7146 tried and will continue to try to find an excuse, any excuse to reject this well known Quranic fact.
...You could also just as easily say "no other trials would trivialize the fact that the number of words in Chapter 1 are 31" and then go on and build a code 31 based on sharing successful trials and hiding failed ones. One could also say "no other trials would trivialize the fact that the opening chapter has 7 verses" and then build a Code 7 the same way. One could also say "no other trials would trivialize the fact that the opening chapter has 139 letters" an then build a Code 139 the same way, etc. etc. ad infinitum...
For you "trivial" means not 19 divisible. For me, "trivial" means that the ratio of successes to failures is in line with the natural probability. For example, if for every successful trial you got 18 failures then your 19 divisible is trivial no matter if you decorate it with words like "fact" and "exactly". This is why you need to add those meaningless words to divert attention, just like Khalifa did.
No other trials would trivialize the fact that the number 19 is only mentioned in chapter 74 (which starts with the word Muddathir, the Hidden one), remained hidden by God's leave until 1974, exactly 19x74 lunar years after the revelation of the Quran. But, those who are well-described by 7146 tried and will continue to try to find an excuse, any excuse to reject this well known Quranic and historic facts.
But you have no idea when the great reading was revealed to begin with. The exact date or even inexact date is not a well known historic fact. It is only so in your imagination.
There are numerous of such facts, yet there must exist some arrogant ingrates in order the prophecy of 19 in chapter 74 to come true. See 7431.
All those facts that I presented are just as much "fact" as what you presented. How come those are not "fact" for you? Because for you subconsiously "fact" only means "19 divisible", which is absurd to say the least and may be the sign of obssessive fixation.
Here is my challenge to you Ayman, and I will post it in other forums and groups
I will meet you anywhere in the USA and Canada, face to face for a live debate. Or, I will pay for your trip and invite you to a studio for a professional recording of our debate. I will pay for all the cost involved. I will expose your distortion and deception. From my own experience, I have learned that the best way to expose falsehood is to subject them to Socratec Dialouge. We will record our live debate and put on the internet so that people will hear both sides in a dynamic debate.
I hope you will not try to find excuse to escape such a challenge. You have nothing to fear, since those appreciate 19 have not hurt even the pinkie of deniers. If there is one who is justified to be concerned about his safety is me, and I do not care since I put my trust in God fully and I do not have an iota of fear to be a witness for His message.Edip, I have a much more useful, simpler and easier challenge for you that will actually make a difference in the course of history and how our grand children will look back at us.
Here is what Khalifa wrote at the end of Appendix 24
I acknowledge with thanks the valuable contributions of Mahmoud
Ali Abib, Gatut Adisoma, Abdullah Arik, Ihsan Ramadan, Lisa Spray,
and Edip Yuksel. Some of the astounding mathematical facts
presented in this Appendix were discovered by these hard working
researchers at Masjid Tucson.From Khalifa's words, it seems that he used assistance from those six people to find successful trials to include in Appendix 24. Unfortunately, since Khalifa took his secret about his failed trials with him to the grave then right now our only chance to find out about the failed trials rests on the good conscious of those individuals. I am afraid that after what is hopefully a long and prosperous life all of them will also eventually take their secret with them to the grave and we will never find out the truth about those hidden failed trials. As you may know, I have tried to guess at the failed trials based on the patterns of how the trials were being changed to achieve the successful result. My theory is that every change in a trial's method is a result of trying the previous methods and not getting a 19 divisible. Based on this theory, I listed some of the estimated failed trials here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598414
However, although my theory is sensible, there is no substitute for the testimony of an actual eye witness to those trials.
You have now, at this very moment, a historic opportunity to come out and be that witness who testifies the whole truth. This is not for me or you, for we are old and may already be set in our ways. I implore you for our children and grand children. Let them look back at us, at this time, and see that we testified the whole truth even when it was against us. More importantly, let them know that we provided them with the whole truth about both the successes and failures relating to Appendix 24 because we trusted that they will make the right choice and we did not rob them of the opportunity to make that choice by taking the whole truth to the grave with us.
Peace,
EdipPeace,
Ayman -
The wholde debate is mockery regarding failed attempts or trials. RK assisted by Edip Yuksel said certain things available on record. That is to be evaluated and proved wrong. According to their own base 19 they deliberately concealed many facts which are exact multiple of 19. RK was a Munafiq and a Munafiq lies. The best advice is this
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.145.gif
Undoubtedly the abode for Muna'fi'qeen will be in the lowest/worst part/class of Hell-Prison.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.145a.gif
and you will never find for them as helping one;http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.146.gif
except for those, who returned repenting and they perfected themselves, i.e. restrained and restricted themselves with Allah and they purified/made their conduct/way of life sincerely and exclusively for Allah , then for this reason they are along with the true believers .
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Mazhar You are incapable of even understanding a simple sarcastic statement made by me (see above), and you are even incapable of acknowledging that there are 19 letters in Bismillah. So, you do not help Ayman's cause of rejecting one of the greatest signs. Ayman is much clever and deceptive than you. So, let him defend those who wish to regress (7437).
Peace,
Edip -
Mazhar You are incapable of even understanding a simple sarcastic statement made by me (see above), and you are even incapable of acknowledging that there are 19 letters in Bismillah. So, you do not help Ayman's cause of rejecting one of the greatest signs. Ayman is much clever and deceptive than you. So, let him defend those who wish to regress (7437).
Peace,
EdipAnd I am asking it factually. Please enumerate the consonants of the first verse seperately to know what RK's borrowed computer understood and he never found time to physically verify by taking computer as his ilaha. May be you find that incorrect and start reading from begining. Qur'aan leads to the Path heading towards the True Sustainer Lord.
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Sorry to interrupt but
I have a question that I want edip to answer.
1)What will happen to a person who has a weak belief in code 19 but can't verify it due to lack of knowledge. Would that be blind faith? -\
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The wholde debate is mockery regarding failed attempts or trials. RK assisted by Edip Yuksel said certain things available on record. That is to be evaluated and proved wrong. According to their own base 19 they deliberately concealed many facts which are exact multiple of 19. RK was a Munafiq and a Munafiq lies. The best advice is this
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.145.gif
Undoubtedly the abode for Muna'fi'qeen will be in the lowest/worst part/class of Hell-Prison.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.145a.gif
and you will never find for them as helping one; except for those, who returned repenting and they perfected themselves, i.e. restrained and restricted themselves with Allah and they purified/made their conduct/way of life sincerely and exclusively for Allah , then for this reason they are along with the true believers .Judge not, lest you be judged, condemn not and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven.
Peace Edip, it is the immutable system of God.
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How do you know God has counted the number of all things, where is the proof? And do you believe God controls everything or are there free entities. How do you know without example there is a purpose to creation. And do you ignore the whole in favour of the particular, because that is what Satan did he focussed on a particular and created a problem out of it, made an issue out of it. Who knows the soldiers of God, and who are the enemies of God.
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(Allah Forgive me If I am incorrect)
For those of you who Do NOT believe the Quran has a mathamatical Code.....I have a Question for you.
How Does Allah Protect His Book from distortion...(As Allah has said that He has placed a Lock/Protection on this Book and Encorurges them to Creat a Book or Surah Like it..)? ???So far I have seen MANY qurans... *In fact Rashad Khalifa has a Quran with out 2 vereses (and he Succeeded)
*There was a Kaff who created another Quran where He created a Totally Different Surah titled 911 as a way to fabricate Islam's Supposed Tie with 911. He was Prvoen guilty...but non the less He Succeeded in Producing a Surah and passing it off as a Quran to many ignorant people.
*Daniel Pipes and many other Anti-Islamic Advicates Also plan or have already suceeded at Re-Creating their Own Politically Correct Quran Where they have deleted Any Vereses that seem Racist,Sexist,or offensive in an effort to re-create Islam to fit their Westernized Globalized Capitalistic Zionistic Satanist Goat masonic Agenda...(its worth noteing who these people work for and their political stance...Daniel Pipes is on the board of Concil for forieghn relavtions and Elite Secrete group)...
So obviously Throughout History...Many people can EASILY Fabricate,Re-create,and delete surah's of the Quran to produce one that They Like.
They have Not been struckdown by lightning ...(yet)...and have succeeded in manipulating Many ignorant people...
So as an Atheist would say....WHERES YOU PROTECTION AT HUH? WHERE is the So-called Protection of the Quran?"I would reply that Allah has many many times said that this Quran is an EMINENT book. And its known as One if not The MOST Glorious Sighn or Miracle Ever to be revealed to mankind....(with a title like that it better Live up to its name )
Imagine a Book that not only contains, Scientific Maricles, Correct History events and names, Amazing Style/speech, But also a Competely Different language that can be read...Imagine.. the Code to be Subliminally Encoded in this Book in numbers...Hebrew and the Torah is known for haveing a Mathamatic code and numberology encoded however...for so long it has been forgotten.
But this Quran that we have...is STILL obtainable.19ers Prove Gods Protection of the Quran by Showing the Math Code...
Quranists I guess Dont Prove God's Protection of the Quran since they dont believe in the Code...
So my question to All those who do not believe in Number 19 Code....How do you believe the Quran is Protected from Distortion?
before you answer that....Ask yourself if you say the SAME EXACT THING that the CHRISTIAN and the JEW will say..... )
(i.e. "Beucase I just Do!....Faith!"the Quran is unlike the Bible and Torah in that it doesnt just Tell you to believe.....rather it PROVES to you God's Sighns and Creativness...and leaves you in a state where you have to choose.
Peace/Salaam
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Peace,
actually when there is a shada do you count it as a double letter?
1,2,3
4,5,6,6,7
8,9,10,10,11,12,13
14,15,16,16,17,18,19and the ALIF on top of mim in not counted.
Peace
If you do not count dagger Alif which is placed here for beautification of the word instead of complete Aleph, what word you will get? Some word different from Arabic and Qur'aan. And another two letters have not been counted by you, it is not one but two at three places. The very first line and premises of RK is false.
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If you do not count dagger Alif which is placed here for beautification of the word instead of complete Aleph, what word you will get? Some word different from Arabic and Qur'aan. And another two letters have not been counted by you, it is not one but two at three places. The very first line and premises of RK is false.
Peace
Peace,
actually when there is a shada do you count it as a double letter?
1,2,3
4,5,6,6,7
8,9,10,10,11,12,13
14,15,16,16,17,18,19and the ALIF on top of mim in not counted.
Peace
It was made on purpose, but I did not get this!
And another two letters have not been counted by you, it is not one but two at three places
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actually when there is a shada do you count it as a double letter?
1,2,3
4,5,6,6,7
8,9,10,10,11,12,13
14,15,16,16,17,18,19Sorry, I did not notice the doubling of digit in your quote. You see this is the illusion caused by digits, while words never create illusion.
So your count is this which is obviously not 19. Thanks.
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22. And this is exclusive of Aleph in Ar-Rahmaan which may take the count to 23. -
How do you know God has counted the number of all things, where is the proof? And do you believe God controls everything or are there free entities. How do you know without example there is a purpose to creation. And do you ignore the whole in favour of the particular, because that is what Satan did he focussed on a particular and created a problem out of it, made an issue out of it. Who knows the soldiers of God, and who are the enemies of God.
Pl quote the reference to which this is the response. Thanks.
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Call me what you like, but having had the age old understanding that the gematric value of besm allah irrahman nirraheem, has been 786, how can you now start back tracking in considering the count of letters in the opening verse of the Quran. I think the rule which the submitters used was to count the pure forms. In preparation of this miracle it was validated by Muhammadans who used to abbreviate the besm allah with 786, if that does not point to 19 letters in it then what do you regard as proof.
God says He has counted the number of all things (722 7+2+2+8 = 19
I will divert from My revelations those who are arrogant on earth, without justification. Consequently, when they see every kind of proof they will not believe. And when
they see the path of guidance they will not adopt it as
their path, but when they see the path of straying they
will adopt it as their path. This is the consequence of
their rejecting our proofs, and being totally heedless
thereof.http//www.submission.org/god-bible.html
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Dear Herbman,
Where did you hear a LETTER named SHADDA in Arabic Alphabet. I know that humans do give birth, but rarely alphabets give birth to new letters.
Peace,
Edip -
Judge not, lest you be judged, condemn not and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven.
Peace Edip, it is the immutable system of God.Dear Submitter
All messengers and prophets were similarly judged and condemned and were even killed. If they followed your advice and hide the truth in order not to be the target of ignorant and arrogant people, then they would be losers with those who compromised their responsibilities to please people.
I am not in the business of pleasing people and receiving praises. I am in the business of telling the truth and calling a spade when I see one.
Peace,
Edip -
Dear Herbman,
Where did you hear a LETTER named SHADDA in Arabic Alphabet. I know that humans do give birth, but rarely alphabets give birth to new letters.
Peace,
EdipPeace Edip,
it is all matter of convention, if you setup a "rule" as "let's count the letter with shadda twice" or "forget about shadda", the result will be different depending on the rules YOU setup.
The same apply for the gematrical values, and so on and so on.An other rule we can change, do you include sourate 1 in the Quran knowing 1587
"And We have bestowed upon thee the Seven Oft-Repeated (verses) and the Grand Qur'an."What I mean is, all the verse numbering in the Reading are man made, and different versions of the Reading give different numbering.
You based all your "19 miracle" on the verse numbering , which is man made, how do you want it to be God's miracle?
Peace
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Dear Herbman,
Where did you hear a LETTER named SHADDA in Arabic Alphabet. I know that humans do give birth, but rarely alphabets give birth to new letters.
Peace,
EdipIt is not a letter but it is certainly an indicator that the letter under it is not one but are two, first still and the other then flowing on to next letter. Qur'aan asks us to use eyes also and not to be blind while reading it. Only blind cant see that these are two letters, and that is the computer programme devised by 19er.
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Dear Herbman,
Where did you hear a LETTER named SHADDA in Arabic Alphabet. I know that humans do give birth, but rarely alphabets give birth to new letters.
Peace,
Ediphow did you help RK when you are ignorant of basic arabic language?
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how did you help RK when you are ignorant of basic arabic language?
Dear RK was least interested in knowing Arabic.
His knowledge of Arabic is this; ?The geometrical value of the word ?Rashad? as written in the Quran is 505, .
He calls these words as his name mentioned in Qur'aan.
The word in 4038
sabilar rasya_d
And interestingly he claims that this is the evidence of him being the messenger. And imagine the gravity that those who consider themselves as intellectuals and keep throwing invitations for debates take it as a concrete proof of him being messenger.