Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
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Peace Mazhar,
The wholde debate is mockery regarding failed attempts or trials.
I don't get what you are trying to say. Every educated person knows that it is important to know the whole truth and not just the successful attempts or trials. Would you give your children a flu medicine where the pharmaceutical company only shared the successful trials? For example, the pharmaceutical company said that its medicine cured 10,000 flu patients. So you go and buy the flu medicine and give it to your child then you find out that the pharmaceutical company actually tried the medicine on 20,000 flu patients, out of which 10,000 trials failed and the patients died. So the mortality rate of the medicine is 1 in 2 while we know that the mortality rate of the flu is about 1 in 10,000. How worried would you be about your child? It would have been better if you gave him or her nothing or a placebo.
In the case of Code 19, the placebo or the natural frequency of 19 divisibles is 1 in 19. If Code 19 hunters shared their failed trials then everyone would be able to easily tell if the success rate of Code 19 is better than a placebo or not. THIS IS WHY CODE 19 HUNTERS (OR BIBLE CODE OR WHATEVER CODE) NEVER SHARE THEIR FAILED TRIALS, plain and simple.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Edip,
Where did you hear a LETTER named SHADDA in Arabic Alphabet. I know that humans do give birth, but rarely alphabets give birth to new letters.
You should have told this to Dr. Khalifa. It is ironic that you insist on using only the consonontal text of the great reading and then turn around and hypocritically "give birth" to letters when you want to change a count to add up to 19.
For example, you don't count the little vocalization Alif in "rahman" that you see here when you count the letters of the Bismallah
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/002.0138.gif
But then you turn around and count the same exact little vocalization Alif in "wahed"
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.163%20.gif
You are forced to hypocritically violate your own rule to cook up a Gematrical Value of 19 for "wahed" despite that like "rahman" this is not how it is written in the consonontal text of the great reading. Khalifa and you knew this fully but then you had the nerve to say the following blatant lie with a straight face
"The crucial importance of the word "ONE"
as the Quran's basic message is manifested
in the fact that the Quran's common denominator, 19,
happens to be the gematrical value of the word "ONE.""
(Source Appendix 1 of the Authorized English translation of the Quran by Dr. Rashad Khalifa)So Edip, you should be the last person to talk about "giving birth" to letters. However, as I said, it is not too late to take a deep breath, gather your courage, and do the right thing and shock everyone (including me) by sharing the WHOLE TRUTH. It is your choice.
PS Thanks to Mazhar for the scanned images from his website.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace RA786,
What I dont understand here is the big problem.
How would believing in the Code 19 theory change or create a disadvantage in the Progression of Islamic Quranic based Monotheism?
How also would believing in Rashad Khalifa as a Messenger also be of a disadvantage in the Progression of Islamic Quranic based Monotheism?
If anything, I would think there it to be beneficial to the cause.
Is this really such a Crucial and Cyclic Debate that needs to continue?
There is no Number 19 nor a rashad Khalifa nor edip nor added to the Shahada after Allah (swt).
Rashad's Messengership does not directly invalidate any monotheistic view or goal does it?
Can or is there any befit that can be gained?
What draw back does supporting/believing in this(19/rashad) cause to the Current Quranic movement?
(just curious)Code 19 is a "fitnah".
Do you know what the Arabic word "fitnah" means? Let me make it easier. When someone says in Arabic that a woman is "fatinah" (doer of "fitnah", what does this mean?
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace RA786,
Code 19 is a "fitnah".
Do you know what the Arabic word "fitnah" means? Let me make it easier. When someone says in Arabic that a woman is "fatinah" (doer of "fitnah", what does this mean?
Peace,
AymanAyman, it is incredible that you repeat your deception and distortion even though I had exposed and refuted them in the past. Again, you highlight the part of the verse, which lists one the functions of the 19 and ignore the rest. Ironically, the part you highlight is exactly about those who do not acknowledge the number 19, those are who are ingrates (KaFeR).
The rest of the verse exposes your deception.
Peace,
Edip -
Peace Edip,
All messengers and prophets were similarly judged and condemned and were even killed. If they followed your advice and hide the truth in order not to be the target of ignorant and arrogant people, then they would be losers with those who compromised their responsibilities to please people.
I am not in the business of pleasing people and receiving praises. I am in the business of telling the truth and calling a spade when I see one.So tell the whole truth and don't hide the parts of the truth that you don't like. It has been three days since I appealed to your sense of decency to tell the whole truth
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597165.msg239877#msg239877
Only you and the five other individuals who helped Khalifa with the numerology of Appendix 24 know this truth. So be fair and rise up to the occasion and share the whole truth. Also, respect the intelligence of your own followers and have confidence in them and let them decide based on the whole truth, both successful and failed trials.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Edip,
Ayman, it is incredible that you repeat your deception and distortion even though I had exposed and refuted them in the past. Again, you highlight the part of the verse, which lists one the functions of the 19 and ignore the rest. Ironically, the part you highlight is exactly about those who do not acknowledge the number 19, those are who are ingrates (KaFeR).
Could you please underline or highlight the part in 7431 which says "those who do not acknowledge the number 19"? Is "not acknowledged" or "fitnah" the description given for the counting of 19? Does "fitnah" mean "not acknowledged"? I asked a specific question about what "fitnah" means.
The rest of the verse exposes your deception.
The rest of the verse is the result of the highlighted part. So you have to understand the highlighted part to understand the rest of the verse.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Mazhar,
I don't get what you are trying to say. Every educated person knows that it is important to know the whole truth and not just the successful attempts or trials. Would you give your children a flu medicine where the pharmaceutical company only shared the successful trials? For example, the pharmaceutical company said that its medicine cured 10,000 flu patients. So you go and buy the flu medicine and give it to your child then you find out that the pharmaceutical company actually tried the medicine on 20,000 flu patients, out of which 10,000 trials failed and the patients died. So the mortality rate of the medicine is 1 in 2 while we know that the mortality rate of the flu is about 1 in 10,000. How worried would you be about your child? It would have been better if you gave him or her nothing or a placebo.
In the case of Code 19, the placebo or the natural frequency of 19 divisibles is 1 in 19. If Code 19 hunters shared their failed trials then everyone would be able to easily tell if the success rate of Code 19 is better than a placebo or not. THIS IS WHY CODE 19 HUNTERS (OR BIBLE CODE OR WHATEVER CODE) NEVER SHARE THEIR FAILED TRIALS, plain and simple.
Peace,
Ayman
Rashad Khalifa was an absolute cheat and liar. Cheating and fraud is done firstly by clothing the truth with falsehood and by withholding some of the facts from disclosing. He did both the things.
Rashad Khalifa's Intellectual deceit exposed-What he said was scum.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/003.%20Rashad%20Khalifa%20Intelectual%20deceit%20exposed/01.%20Preface.htm
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Ayman, it is incredible that you repeat your deception and distortion even though I had exposed and refuted them in the past. Again, you highlight the part of the verse, which lists one the functions of the 19 and ignore the rest. Ironically, the part you highlight is exactly about those who do not acknowledge the number 19, those are who are ingrates (KaFeR).
The rest of the verse exposes your deception.
Peace,
EdipIt is you who do not believe in quran and keep telling people that they will repent on day of judgement for not believing in your imagination (code-19), so tell us Edip who appointed you to give people this terrible news? laugh
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Peace Edip,
Would you please tell us what is your answer to this
Peace Edip,
........
For example, you don't count the little vocalization Alif in "rahman" that you see here when you count the letters of the Bismallah
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/002.0138.gif
But then you turn around and count the same exact little vocalization Alif in "wahed"
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.163%20.gif
.....
Peace,
Ayman
I Think it is a major point in this debate, but you keep on ignoring this question !
You always reply to the question before it and the one after it , but never answerd THIS Question !
if you already answered but i'd missed it for some reason, please re-quote yourself for the benefit of this debate.Once again
Why the Vocalisation Alif is counted in some verses yet skipped in others ?
Salam,
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Peace Edip,
Would you please tell us what is your answer to this
I Think it is a major point in this debate, but you keep on ignoring this question !
You always reply to the question before it and the one after it , but never answerd THIS Question !
if you already answered but i'd missed it for some reason, please re-quote yourself for the benefit of this debate.Once again
Why the Vocalisation Alif is counted in some verses yet skipped in others ? Salam,
Dear Quickduck
I thank you for bringing this criticism to my attention, since I do not have time to read all the messages in this or other threads. When I browsed this page I thought it belonged to the person who contested the number of letters in Bismillah. Thus, I did not want to waste my time on it.
This is a valid and so far the best criticism directed by Ayman. I command him for this criticism. We do not and we should not count that vocalization dagger. Dagger, shadda, diatrical marks are not letters and they are not part of the original spelling of the words. So, the gematrical value of WaHeD (6+8+4) in today's manuscripts cannot be 19, but it is 18. Of course, this creates a major problem in the system. But, knowing the imperfection and inconsistencies in manuscripts and knowing the predictive and corrective power of this highly sensitive system, I am predicting (or speculating) that its original spelling contained an Alif. Interestingly, some scholars of the past considered the word WAHeD (6+1+8+4) spelled with Alif and thus adding up to 19.
Here is a question If we find some of the oldest manuscripts spelling the word with Alif would Ayman acknowledged the numerical structure of the Quran on the number 19?
Peace,
Edip -
Dear Quickduck
I thank you for bringing this criticism to my attention, since I do not have time to read all the messages in this or other threads. When I browsed this page I thought it belonged to the person who contested the number of letters in Bismillah. Thus, I did not want to waste my time on it.
You're welcome dear Edip. But don't worry, it happens to me as well i could miss a reply and ask again the same question
... We do not and we should not count that vocalization dagger. Dagger, shadda, diatrical marks are not letters and they are not part of the original spelling of the words. So, the gematrical value of WaHeD (6+8+4) in today's manuscripts cannot be 19, but it is 18. Of course, this creates a major problem in the system.
Thank you for admitting this obvious fact.
But, knowing the imperfection and inconsistencies in manuscripts and knowing the predictive and corrective power of this highly sensitive system, I am predicting (or speculating) that its original spelling contained an Alif. Interestingly, some scholars of the past considered the word WAHeD (6+1+8+4) spelled with Alif and thus adding up to 19.
Now i have some more interesting questions , so please explain to me like i was 6 years old,
1 - Are you telling us that you 19ers, base your theory/miracle upon "predictions" and "speculations" ?
2 - i need to know what is the difference between the dagger and the Alif ?
Let's take for example, in the first chapter of Al-Quran (al Fatiha)
http//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/FirstSurahKoran.jpg
as you can see, in the same al-fatiha, everyone can spot many Alifs as well as many daggers. Do you count them all or just the alifs ?
Anyway, i counted the letter of al-fatiha in either ways yet the letters didn't add up to a 19 divisible. Feel free to correct me if i am wrong.3 - look at the word "Maliki" in the 13, it is written in this screenshot with a dagger instead of the Alif, but in other manuscripts (warsh version) it is spelled with an Alif !!
Moreover, this very word give different meanings depending on the spelling
Maliki = king
MaAliki = possessor
So wich manuscript has been authorised by God ?4 - What is the gematrical value of the word ''Sirata" in 17 ? is there an Alif or a dagger ?
5 - If your answer will be that the manuscripts we have today are ''imperfect'' and "inconsistent'' and/or may have some words mispelled, so what is THE manuscript you 19ers adopted to count out from ? HAFS, Warsh ?... or do you switch to another manuscript as soon as the first one fails the trial ?
Here is a question If we find some of the oldest manuscripts spelling the word with Alif would Ayman acknowledged the numerical structure of the Quran on the number 19?
Ayman will speek for himself )
Salam
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You're welcome dear Edip. But don't worry, it happens to me as well i could miss a reply and ask again the same question
Thank you for admitting this obvious fact.
Now i have some more interesting questions , so please explain to me like i was 6 years old,
1 - Are you telling us that you 19ers, base your theory/miracle upon "predictions" and "speculations" ?No... It is based on physical, verifiable and falsifiable facts. At the same time it has error-correction function, which is a well-known feature of all codes.
2 - i need to know what is the difference between the dagger and the Alif ?
Arabic Alphabet has 28 letters. You cannot find dagger in the earlier manuscripts. Alif is the first letter of the Arabic alphabet and to distinguish it from the letter L it is SEPARATED from the following letter.
Let's take for example, in the first chapter of Al-Quran (al Fatiha)
as you can see, in the same al-fatiha, everyone can spot many Alifs as well as many daggers. Do you count them all or just the alifs ?
Anyway, i counted the letter of al-fatiha in either ways yet the letters didn't add up to a 19 divisible. Feel free to correct me if i am wrong.How many times do I need to repeat it? This is a simple fact that there is no disagreement on it among those who studied the oldest manuscripts.
3 - look at the word "Maliki" in the 13, it is written in this screenshot with a dagger instead of the Alif, but in other manuscripts (warsh version) it is spelled with an Alif !!
Moreover, this very word give different meanings depending on the spelling
Maliki = king
MaAliki = possessor
So wich manuscript has been authorised by God ?Hundreds of EXTRA Alifs were later ADDED to the Quran manuscript in order to accommodate the non-Arabs. A comparative study among the oldest available manuscript will reveal all the added Alefs.
4 - What is the gematrical value of the word ''Sirata" in 17 ? is there an Alif or a dagger ?
It is SiRaT, that is, 90+200+9 = 299.
5 - If your answer will be that the manuscripts we have today are ''imperfect'' and "inconsistent'' and/or may have some words mispelled, so what is THE manuscript you 19ers adopted to count out from ? HAFS, Warsh ?... or do you switch to another manuscript as soon as the first one fails the trial ?
We used the most common, HAFS version. Yet, the code exposed a few errors in the manuscript. However, there is a major problem in the count of Alifs, and it requires a serious comparative work. If I could afford it I would to it myself.
Peace,
Edip -
Arabic Alphabet has 28 letters. You cannot find dagger in the earlier manuscripts. Alif is the first letter of the Arabic alphabet and to distinguish it from the letter L it is SEPARATED from the following letter.
It is not correct since in Qur'aan we find 29 letters of Arabic alphabet; 28 consonants and aleph as letter which is never the part of any Root. Aleph like some others does not join with the next letter. Dagger Aleph also respresent aleph when calligraphically two words are conjoined while preceeding letter was aleph, as is in Ar Rahamaan, between Meem and Noon, see also calligraphical presentation of Kitab with dagger aleph and large aleph in Qur'aan. Sould these two be given varying numeral value?
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If you do not count dagger Alif which is placed here for beautification of the word instead of complete Aleph, what word you will get? Some word different from Arabic and Qur'aan. And another two letters have not been counted by you, it is not one but two at three places. The very first line and premises of RK is false.
I'm a new Muslim and don't speak Arabic, but even I can realize that the shadda didn't exist when the Quran was written, therefor no double lams.. The bismillah only has 19 letters in the original Quran. I even asked an Egyptian Sunni that doesn't believe in code 19. They still said 19 letters.
whatever
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welcome to the forum
I'm a new Muslim and don't speak Arabic, but even I can realize that the shadda didn't exist when the Quran was written, therefor no double lams.. The bismillah only has 19 letters in the original Quran. I even asked an Egyptian Sunni that doesn't believe in code 19. They still said 19 letters.
whatever
well, you should ask your friend again how many letters are in the word " " "one" ?
i bet he will tell you that there are 4 letters because he'll count the alif as a letter, despite the fact that this "alif" is written the exact same way as the dagger alif in the bismillah, hence should not be counted.salam
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I'm a new Muslim and don't speak Arabic, but even I can realize that the shadda didn't exist when the Quran was written, therefor no double lams.. The bismillah only has 19 letters in the original Quran. I even asked an Egyptian Sunni that doesn't believe in code 19. They still said 19 letters.watever
Ironically, the scholars of dozens of Sunni and Shiite sects who disagreed on almost everything, never had a disagreement about the number of letters in Bismillah BEFORE 1974. (I have sample quotes from them). However, now I hear and read disagreement on this simple issue. Some scholars now claim that Basmalah has 18 letters, some claims it to be 20, 21 and even 22, but not 19.
During my live TV debate with the former head of Turkish Religious Affairs, Prof. Suleyman Ate, he claimed that Basmalah has 21 letters. In front of millions of audience. ???
Peace,
Edip -
Ironically, the scholars of dozens of Sunni and Shiite sects who disagreed on almost everything, never had a disagreement about the number of letters in Bismillah BEFORE 1974. (I have sample quotes from them). However, now I hear and read disagreement on this simple issue. Some scholars now claim that Basmalah has 18 letters, some claims it to be 20, 21 and even 22, but not 19.
During my live TV debate with the former head of Turkish Religious Affairs, Prof. Suleyman Ate, he claimed that Basmalah has 21 letters. In front of millions of audience. ???
Peace,
EdipWhen they are presented with truth, they reject it, deaf dumb and blind.
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Ironically, the scholars of dozens of Sunni and Shiite sects who disagreed on almost everything, never had a disagreement about the number of letters in Bismillah BEFORE 1974. (I have sample quotes from them). However, now I hear and read disagreement on this simple issue. Some scholars now claim that Basmalah has 18 letters, some claims it to be 20, 21 and even 22, but not 19.
During my live TV debate with the former head of Turkish Religious Affairs, Prof. Suleyman Ate, he claimed that Basmalah has 21 letters. In front of millions of audience. ???
Peace,
EdipAnd how many letters are in the word " " ?? did everyone agreed on this also ?
Salam,
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Peace Edip,
Here is a question If we find some of the oldest manuscripts spelling the word with Alif would Ayman acknowledged the numerical structure of the Quran on the number 19?
Your question demonstrates that you don't know much about the development of the Arabic writing system. The oldest manuscripts of the great reading spell the word "wahed" without an Alif for a reason. The reason is that the Old Arabic writing system didn't make use of Matres Lectionis. The use of Matres Lectionis became a standard part of the Arabic writing system much later. This is the case even for non-quranic writings. So for example, in mundane Arabic writings from pre-Quranic times we also see that Matres Lectionis was not used. On the other hand, we see Matres Lectionis increasingly used the more modern the writing. So the older any manuscript or inscription (Quranic or otherwise) the less likely you are to find the spelling of words with an Alif long vowel.
Also, it is hypocritical to say the least that you appeal to oldest manuscripts when you don't follow your own advice. It is an indisputable fact that ALL the oldest manuscripts have the word "wahed" spelled without an Alif. So until you wake up from your dream of discovering some non-existent older manuscript that contradicts everything we know about the development of Old Arabic, you should take your own advice and admit that "wahed" is spelled without an Alif and delete or clearly denounce the following deliberate blatant lie in Khalifa's Appendix
"The crucial importance of the word "ONE"
as the Quran's basic message is manifested
in the fact that the Quran's common denominator, 19,
happens to be the gematrical value of the word "ONE.""
(Source Appendix 1 of the Authorized English translation of the Quran by Dr. Rashad Khalifa)It is a deliberate blatant lie and not an honest mistake because Khalifa certainly tried the word "wahed" with and without the Alif but like a cowardly thief in the night he hid his failed trial without the Alif. Had he shared both trials then we could have considered it an honest mistake due to his ignorance (and yours) of the development of the Arabic script.
Also, while you are in the mood of not being a hypocrite and following your own advice of considering the oldest Quanic manuscripts, you might as well delete and denounce all of Appendix 24 since all the oldest manuscripts of Chapter 9 have 9128-129.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace everyone,
I'm a former pursuer of 19-based numerology in the reading (quran). Pardon me for joining this thread so late. I hope that what I have to share will be beneficial.
First, I have a question. It has been suggested that an oral debate be called "Fitnah or Sign?" - how is that a reasonable title? In the original written debate, Edip was forced by the veracity of the reading (quran) to confess that the count (19) is only a fitnah for those who ungratefully rejected (alladhin kafaru). Edip was forced to admit that the passage translates to we did not make their count except as an afflicting trial (fitnah) for the rejectors . God did not make the count (19) EXCEPT as a fitnah for the rejectors. That is established and indisputable, so how could it be the title of a new debate?
My first point is general, and my second is specific. In general, the numbers associated with the end time (yawm al-akhir) - when this world will come to an end and things will be unimaginably different - are allegorical. Also, the numbers associated with the invisible controllers (malaikah) are also allegorical.
351
351 He makes the controllers messengers with wings - two, three, and four.Are not the wings and their count allegorical?
6917
6917 The controllers will be at its borders (at the end time), and the throne of your lord will be carried above them by eight.Is eight a mystical count that should be pursued, or an allegory? Isn't the throne also a symbol?
7430-31
7430-31 On it are ninteen. We did not make associates of the fire except controllers and we did not make their count except as an afflicting trial for the rejectors.The count of "wings" of the controllers (2, 3, and 4), the count of 8 associated with the "throne" of God at the end time, and the count of controllers somehow associated with the fire of hell (19) are allegories. There are also 1000 controllers mentioned in the reading, and 3000, and 5000. But no number has been so widely afflicting to those who reject the no-nonsense reading ( ج as 19.
Now, my specific point is regarding what Ayman just said about Khalifa's wahid deception. A few years ago I was in the thick of the Rashad Khalifa cult in North America. Due to Khalifa's gross misrepresentation of the passage in chapter 74, I thought I would be going to hell if I noticed inconsistencies in his 19 counts. However, they were inescapable.
On page 625 of Khalifa's last published translation (ISBN 0-934894-57-1 - 1989), he wrote
We now understand that the universal coding of God's creations with the number 19 rests in the fact that it is the gematrical value of the word "ONE" in all the scriptural language - Aramaic, Hebrew, and Arabic. ...The Hebrew word for "ONE" is "VAHD" (pronounced V-AHAD). In Arabic, the word for "ONE" is "WAHD" (pronounced WAAHED).
Obviously, the value of wahid in the reading is 18, according to the gematria counting scheme. Khalifa had to count invisible letters to push the count to 19, just like adding a letter nun to the passage in 681 to push the authentic count of 132 to 133, 19x7. Furthermore, the Hebrew word va-ahad does not mean "one," it means "and one." It's like saying "and one" (wa-ahad) in Arabic. He had to insert a Hebrew character to force the Hebrew "gematrical" value to be 19. The real value of "one" in Hebrew is 13, if you're into gematria.
You have to switch the method of counting and doctor what you're counting in order to force 19 to pop up all over the reading.
If being forced by 19-based numerology into manipulation of the book of God is NOT a fitnah (afflicting trial), I'd like to know what is. I honestly can't believe I wasted so many years of my life trying to see 19 everywhere, when all I had to do was translate the passage in 7431 correctly to see that the whole thing is nothing but an afflicting trial for those who reject. What do they reject? The true nature of God (one who does not mess around) and the true nature of the reading (one that contains no nonsense).
-David