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  4. Some more challenge for Arab linguists

Some more challenge for Arab linguists

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Questions/Comments on the Quran
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  • K Offline
    K Offline
    kn
    wrote on last edited by
    #6

    The word in question is likely a verb, based on its meaning as to refuse, dislike, to stay away or refrain. This is a difficult word and as Lane explains, it seem to be a verb.

    Hope I am understanding it right.

    Salam

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    • U Offline
      U Offline
      uq
      wrote on last edited by
      #7

      As pointed out above, is a verb, whereas (with tanween) is a noun which describes this verb.

      Visit www.studyquran.co.uk for resources on the Arabic language, this site has some of the most comprehensive tools available on the net.

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      • M Offline
        M Offline
        Mazhar
        wrote on last edited by
        #8

        As pointed out above, is a verb, whereas (with tanween) is a noun which describes this verb.

        Visit www.studyquran.co.uk for resources on the Arabic language, this site has some of the most comprehensive tools available on the net.

        Perfect or imperfect or imperative verb? First person or second person or third person? What is the act of the verb?

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        • P Offline
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          progod
          wrote on last edited by
          #9

          Peace,

          The blind should not lead the blind.

          Also Most Arabic words will have atleast 3 letters in their root (counting that one letter is being doubled, shadda being, sheen, dal, dal) No Arabic word has a two letter root. None.

          Godbless,
          Anwar

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          • Q Offline
            Q Offline
            quickduck
            wrote on last edited by
            #10

            Please share your understanding as to word is a noun or verb? or else it is neither of these two. Thanks in advance.

            Badar

            is composed of two parts (wich means father) and a "grammatical "
            the second word (lahab ) means "flame".
            So "Abi lahab" means literarly father of the flame.

            Let me explain

            I bet everyone here knows the infamous abou hurayra , translated as ''father of a little cat'' . it has the same form as "abou lahab" . (BTW, we should not translate them because they are kind of compound names/nicknames used by the arabs to show repect or to differenciate between people with the same first name or even for fun).

            Now this form of nicknaming may have 3 grammatical "states"

            1- Marfoo3 , ie .when standalone or in the beginning of the sentence.
            (Abou lahab .... Abou hurayra
            2- Mansoob , When used as complement of a verb (ex I killed Abaa lahab .... I hate Abaa hurayra)

            3- Majroor , after some grammatical particles. (i dont agree with Abii lahab.... i will start by Abii hurayra)

            so it is a noun , not a verb )

            Hope this helps ..

            Salam

            P.S my english is not as rich as my arabic, so excuse me if i didn't use the correct words to express my answer.

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            • M Offline
              M Offline
              Mazhar
              wrote on last edited by
              #11

              The blind should not lead the blind.

              This can be said only when one is in a mindless state.

              The blind cannot lead only the blind hearted, what to say of a blind man, even the Messenger of Allah, despite being the most capably seeing one, cannot lead the blind hearted.

              The beauty of Arabic language of Qur'aan is that it teaches and makes people learn even by seeing its written text.

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              • U Offline
                U Offline
                uq
                wrote on last edited by
                #12

                Quickduck's post is correct.

                I mistook abaa as to refuse.

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                • B Offline
                  B Offline
                  bkanwar2
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #13

                  Peace,

                  The blind should not lead the blind.

                  Also Most Arabic words will have atleast 3 letters in their root (counting that one letter is being doubled, shadda being, sheen, dal, dal) No Arabic word has a two letter root. None.

                  Godbless,
                  Anwar

                  Peace, may be the Arabic grammar books and Lexicons, I am reading were written by people, who were smoking Pot. What I have read so far that the Classic Arabic has only three kinds of words; the noun, verb and particle. Invariably, almost all particles I have come across so far, are based upon two letter/alphabet root. In addition there are still few lucky nouns left as well. For which no body has twisted arm of grammar of Arabic to fit those into three letter root paradigm. For example "possessor or owner", "a thing" and "the mouth", just to name few.

                  is composed of two parts (wich means father) and a "grammatical "
                  the second word (lahab ) means "flame".
                  So "Abi lahab" means literarly father of the flame.

                  Let me explain

                  I bet everyone here knows the infamous abou hurayra , translated as ''father of a little cat'' . it has the same form as "abou lahab" . (BTW, we should not translate them because they are kind of compound names/nicknames used by the arabs to show repect or to differenciate between people with the same first name or even for fun).

                  Now this form of nicknaming may have 3 grammatical "states"

                  1- Marfoo3 , ie .when standalone or in the beginning of the sentence.
                  (Abou lahab .... Abou hurayra
                  2- Mansoob , When used as complement of a verb (ex I killed Abaa lahab .... I hate Abaa hurayra)

                  3- Majroor , after some grammatical particles. (i dont agree with Abii lahab.... i will start by Abii hurayra)

                  so it is a noun , not a verb

                  Hope this helps ..

                  Salam

                  P.S my english is not as rich as my arabic, so excuse me if i didn't use the correct words to express my answer.

                  The red in above is what I called twisting the arm of Arabic grammar to make it fit to the agenda or meanings of interest. Why only here a yaa is used as a sign of jar? Whereas, standard rule for indicating a noun to be Majroor is by tenween of kesra. Why not it is a verb, as is present in Lane with same spelling? Or an alif of interogation meaning "which, what etc" followed by two letter root of present in Lane again meaning as, "made manifest and evident"?

                  Badar

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                  • P Offline
                    P Offline
                    progod
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #14

                    badar,

                    Quickduck is correct. You are mistaken. I'm not sure of your thinking process but something is skewed. As for dhoo and hunna, these are not based on roots. Nor are huwa, heya or hum. As for Fam. I never checked to see if it was derived from a root, but not all Arabic words are derived from roots. You will not find roots for ji'ah or yad (although ayyada is verb derived from yad, not the other way around). Sometimes you will find words like these that originated with a certain root, however they have diverged completely. Other times you will find that some of these words have weak initial radicals or third radicals that drop. Not everything in Arabic is going to be mathematical. In every langauge there are always exceptions, irregularities and oddities. But Arabic is one of the langauges that has few of these compared to other languages.

                    Godbless,
                    Anwar

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                    • B Offline
                      B Offline
                      bkanwar2
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #15

                      badar,

                      Quickduck is correct. You are mistaken.

                      Anwar

                      Peace, please bring forward your arguments in suppport and not just the verdict.

                      Badar

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                      • Q Offline
                        Q Offline
                        quickduck
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #16

                        Peace, please bring forward your arguments in suppport and not just the verdict.

                        Badar

                        Peace,

                        i was born arabic speaker, i don't need to bring any argument.

                        Who can see any verb in the name of Abou/abaa/abii hurayra ?? You ??
                        So, you better change your signature because you're far far away from respecting it !

                        salam,

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                        • K Offline
                          K Offline
                          kn
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #17

                          Peace,

                          i was born arabic speaker, i don't need to bring any argument.

                          Salam

                          It is a little arrogant, as not every one on this forum was born arabic. More over all are trying to learn here, I hope.
                          Any way, if any one can reveiw the following link and shed some light for our learning sake only

                          http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000049.pdf

                          With peace and due repcect

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                          • Q Offline
                            Q Offline
                            quickduck
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #18

                            Salam

                            It is a little arrogant, as not every one on this forum was born arabic....
                            With peace and due repcect

                            Peace,
                            I've never meant to be arrogant. Please read the thread from the beginning to figure out who was so!

                            .... More over, all are trying to learn here, I hope.

                            With peace and due repcect

                            Yes..but i think some wants to teach, albeit i gave a clear answer.....

                            salam

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                            • P Offline
                              P Offline
                              progod
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #19

                              Peace,

                              Quickduck, you are completely correct about your conclusions. So that you didn't sound arrogant to non-Arabic speakers (dialect or otherwise) you should have pointed to the fact that you were educated in Arabic and were born into an Arabic speaking family. To be honest, you might have been born into a family that speaks Arabic dialects but not the Classical Arabic of the Jahiliyyah and the Quran as is the case for most Arabs. So I'm not knocking you, as again you are much more correct than Badar. (honestly I don't even understand what Badar's motives are, as they don't seem to be education). But being born an Arabic speaker (technically no one is born speaking any language, but they are born into a family that speaks a certain language) doesn't automatically make you a qualified expert on Arabic grammar. Believe me I've seen it many times with people born into Arabic speaking families or countries. It's more about how you were educated in Classical Arabic (since first grade, your father or mother taught you (not a dialect but Classical), kindergarten, in a university, etc., etc) that makes you qualified.

                              Godbless,
                              Anwar

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                              • Q Offline
                                Q Offline
                                quickduck
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #20

                                Peace,
                                you are exactly right,
                                i was born into an dialectal arabic speaking family and in a dialectal arabic country (ie. Morocco) but i had the luck that my father had me learn classical arabic since my young age (i was reading jahiliya poetry when i was 9)
                                but this is not what it takes to answer to badar's post.
                                Badar wanted to know if the word in "Abii lahab/ Abii hurayra" was a name or a verb ?

                                It is like asking an english man where is the verb in the word ''GodFather" or "babyface" ?

                                I replied kindly and clearly, then, most of the members who read this thread understood what i wrote, and even admitted their mistake, except Badar...that's why you and i are asking what is his real purpose of posting this question at the first place !!

                                Salam

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                                • B Offline
                                  B Offline
                                  bkanwar2
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #21

                                  Salam

                                  It is a little arrogant, as not every one on this forum was born arabic. More over all are trying to learn here, I hope.
                                  Any way, if any one can reveiw the following link and shed some light for our learning sake only

                                  http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000049.pdf

                                  With peace and due repcect

                                  Dear, kn thanks for the link. But increasingly my feelings are that discussion and arguments on this forum are not for enhancement of knowledge. Rather these are to further confirmation of pre exsisting beliefs and notions. Any thing contrary is not worthy of consideration.

                                  However, my question to ones who claim to know Arabic grammar is. Is it wrong to say that Alif can be used as a question mark, sign of interogation, per Arabic grammar? Hence, inpmlying meanings of " what, which" etc. And if it is not wrong, which it is not. Why this is not a combination of plus . Alif, as sign of interogation, and meaning as manifest, evident, clear and plain. Link below in Lane.

                                  http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000315.pdf

                                  Badar

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                                  • Q Offline
                                    Q Offline
                                    quickduck
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #22

                                    Dear, kn thanks for the link. But increasingly my feelings are that discussion and arguments on this forum are not for enhancement of knowledge. Rather these are to further confirmation of pre existing beliefs and notions. Any thing contrary is not worthy of consideration.

                                    However, my question to ones who claim to know Arabic grammar is. Is it wrong to say that Alif can be used as a question mark, sign of interogation, per Arabic grammar? Hence, inpmlying meanings of " what, which" etc. And if it is not wrong, which it is not. Why this is not a combination of plus . Alif, as sign of interogation, and meaning as manifest, evident, clear and plain. Link below in Lane.

                                    http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000315.pdf

                                    Badar

                                    Peace,
                                    Here is the translation of the chapter 111.

                                    In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.

                                    1. Cursed be " " ....the (two) hands "" ...of... Abii-Lahabin (tanween) " " ; ....and "" .....cursed be himself
                                    2. His money will not avail him, nor what he has earned.
                                    3. He will be sent to a flaming Fire.
                                    4. And his wife who carries the logs.
                                    5. On her neck will be a rope of thorns.

                                    Now try to replace "the two hands of Abii Lahabin" by a verbal sentence and try not to run this chapter as a non-sense.

                                    Salam

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                                    • P Offline
                                      P Offline
                                      progod
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #23

                                      can be an article of interrogation. But does not mean clear. It means 'with me, with me in mind, for my sake.' Even with that said is the majrur form of abu. I think I explained to you the akinness in Classical Arabic of kasrah and ya, dommah and waw and fathah and alif before.

                                      Godbless,
                                      Anwar

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                                      • B Offline
                                        B Offline
                                        bkanwar2
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #24

                                        Peace,
                                        Here is the translation of the chapter 111.

                                        In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.

                                        1. Cursed be " " ....the (two) hands "" ...of... Abii-Lahabin (tanween) " " ; ....and "" .....cursed be himself
                                        2. His money will not avail him, nor what he has earned.
                                        3. He will be sent to a flaming Fire.
                                        4. And his wife who carries the logs.
                                        5. On her neck will be a rope of thorns.

                                        Now try to replace "the two hands of Abii Lahabin" by a verbal sentence and try not to run this chapter as a non-sense.

                                        Salam

                                        Thanks quickduck, please look at this with open mind. Shall be happy to discuss with you, if it does not make any sense. Purely on Arabic grammar and lexical basis.
                                        http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600011.0

                                        can be an article of interrogation. But does not mean clear. It means 'with me, with me in mind, for my sake.' Even with that said is the majrur form of abu. I think I explained to you the akinness in Classical Arabic of kasrah and ya, dommah and waw and fathah and alif before.

                                        Godbless,
                                        Anwar

                                        Never, disagreed with you about akinness of Arabic short vowels sign to the counterpart long vowels. In fact these could used in place of and are used in place of, as such in Quranic text. Please, pay attention to word in Lane in the above reference page. It will satisfy three letter root criteria as well, based on this akinness criteria. After, Baa, mark of kesra representing first Yaa and second Yaa as it is. The word root consisting of either "Baa and Yaa" or "Baa, Yaa and Yaa".

                                        Peace.

                                        Badar

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                                        • Q Offline
                                          Q Offline
                                          quickduck
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #25

                                          Thanks quickduck, please look at this with open mind. Shall be happy to discuss with you, if it does not make any sense. Purely on Arabic grammar and lexical basis.
                                          http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600011.0

                                          Peace.

                                          Badar

                                          After reading that post and the link you provided, i don't wonder anymore why is it so difficult for you to grasp the simpliest arabic gramma.
                                          It seems that you look 3 miles away for something that is at the reach of your hands.
                                          Why do you love to complicate ?

                                          i don't deny the fact that could represent an interrogative alif + a possessive particle .
                                          But to figure out if it fits in this specific verse, one should read the whole verse, or even the whole chapter to understand.

                                          P.S NOT EVERY SINGLE WORD IN THE QURAN HAS BEEN MISTRANSLATED, but SOME (keywords) ARE.

                                          Salam

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