Some more challenge for Arab linguists
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Peace,
Quickduck, you are completely correct about your conclusions. So that you didn't sound arrogant to non-Arabic speakers (dialect or otherwise) you should have pointed to the fact that you were educated in Arabic and were born into an Arabic speaking family. To be honest, you might have been born into a family that speaks Arabic dialects but not the Classical Arabic of the Jahiliyyah and the Quran as is the case for most Arabs. So I'm not knocking you, as again you are much more correct than Badar. (honestly I don't even understand what Badar's motives are, as they don't seem to be education). But being born an Arabic speaker (technically no one is born speaking any language, but they are born into a family that speaks a certain language) doesn't automatically make you a qualified expert on Arabic grammar. Believe me I've seen it many times with people born into Arabic speaking families or countries. It's more about how you were educated in Classical Arabic (since first grade, your father or mother taught you (not a dialect but Classical), kindergarten, in a university, etc., etc) that makes you qualified.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
you are exactly right,
i was born into an dialectal arabic speaking family and in a dialectal arabic country (ie. Morocco) but i had the luck that my father had me learn classical arabic since my young age (i was reading jahiliya poetry when i was 9)
but this is not what it takes to answer to badar's post.
Badar wanted to know if the word in "Abii lahab/ Abii hurayra" was a name or a verb ?It is like asking an english man where is the verb in the word ''GodFather" or "babyface" ?
I replied kindly and clearly, then, most of the members who read this thread understood what i wrote, and even admitted their mistake, except Badar...that's why you and i are asking what is his real purpose of posting this question at the first place !!
Salam
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Salam
It is a little arrogant, as not every one on this forum was born arabic. More over all are trying to learn here, I hope.
Any way, if any one can reveiw the following link and shed some light for our learning sake onlyhttp//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000049.pdf
With peace and due repcect
Dear, kn thanks for the link. But increasingly my feelings are that discussion and arguments on this forum are not for enhancement of knowledge. Rather these are to further confirmation of pre exsisting beliefs and notions. Any thing contrary is not worthy of consideration.
However, my question to ones who claim to know Arabic grammar is. Is it wrong to say that Alif can be used as a question mark, sign of interogation, per Arabic grammar? Hence, inpmlying meanings of " what, which" etc. And if it is not wrong, which it is not. Why this is not a combination of plus . Alif, as sign of interogation, and meaning as manifest, evident, clear and plain. Link below in Lane.
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000315.pdf
Badar
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Dear, kn thanks for the link. But increasingly my feelings are that discussion and arguments on this forum are not for enhancement of knowledge. Rather these are to further confirmation of pre existing beliefs and notions. Any thing contrary is not worthy of consideration.
However, my question to ones who claim to know Arabic grammar is. Is it wrong to say that Alif can be used as a question mark, sign of interogation, per Arabic grammar? Hence, inpmlying meanings of " what, which" etc. And if it is not wrong, which it is not. Why this is not a combination of plus . Alif, as sign of interogation, and meaning as manifest, evident, clear and plain. Link below in Lane.
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000315.pdf
Badar
Peace,
Here is the translation of the chapter 111.In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
- Cursed be " " ....the (two) hands "" ...of... Abii-Lahabin (tanween) " " ; ....and "" .....cursed be himself
- His money will not avail him, nor what he has earned.
- He will be sent to a flaming Fire.
- And his wife who carries the logs.
- On her neck will be a rope of thorns.
Now try to replace "the two hands of Abii Lahabin" by a verbal sentence and try not to run this chapter as a non-sense.
Salam
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can be an article of interrogation. But does not mean clear. It means 'with me, with me in mind, for my sake.' Even with that said is the majrur form of abu. I think I explained to you the akinness in Classical Arabic of kasrah and ya, dommah and waw and fathah and alif before.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
Here is the translation of the chapter 111.In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
- Cursed be " " ....the (two) hands "" ...of... Abii-Lahabin (tanween) " " ; ....and "" .....cursed be himself
- His money will not avail him, nor what he has earned.
- He will be sent to a flaming Fire.
- And his wife who carries the logs.
- On her neck will be a rope of thorns.
Now try to replace "the two hands of Abii Lahabin" by a verbal sentence and try not to run this chapter as a non-sense.
Salam
Thanks quickduck, please look at this with open mind. Shall be happy to discuss with you, if it does not make any sense. Purely on Arabic grammar and lexical basis.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600011.0can be an article of interrogation. But does not mean clear. It means 'with me, with me in mind, for my sake.' Even with that said is the majrur form of abu. I think I explained to you the akinness in Classical Arabic of kasrah and ya, dommah and waw and fathah and alif before.
Godbless,
AnwarNever, disagreed with you about akinness of Arabic short vowels sign to the counterpart long vowels. In fact these could used in place of and are used in place of, as such in Quranic text. Please, pay attention to word in Lane in the above reference page. It will satisfy three letter root criteria as well, based on this akinness criteria. After, Baa, mark of kesra representing first Yaa and second Yaa as it is. The word root consisting of either "Baa and Yaa" or "Baa, Yaa and Yaa".
Peace.
Badar
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Thanks quickduck, please look at this with open mind. Shall be happy to discuss with you, if it does not make any sense. Purely on Arabic grammar and lexical basis.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600011.0Peace.
Badar
After reading that post and the link you provided, i don't wonder anymore why is it so difficult for you to grasp the simpliest arabic gramma.
It seems that you look 3 miles away for something that is at the reach of your hands.
Why do you love to complicate ?i don't deny the fact that could represent an interrogative alif + a possessive particle .
But to figure out if it fits in this specific verse, one should read the whole verse, or even the whole chapter to understand.P.S NOT EVERY SINGLE WORD IN THE QURAN HAS BEEN MISTRANSLATED, but SOME (keywords) ARE.
Salam
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After reading that post and the link you provided, i don't wonder anymore why is it so difficult for you to grasp the simpliest arabic gramma.
It seems that you look 3 miles away for something that is at the reach of your hands.
Why do you love to complicate ?i don't deny the fact that could represent an interrogative alif + a possessive particle .
But to figure out if it fits in this specific verse, one should read the whole verse, or even the whole chapter to understand.P.S NOT EVERY SINGLE WORD IN THE QURAN HAS BEEN MISTRANSLATED, but SOME (keywords) ARE.
Salam
Dear quickduck, I greatly appreciate your honesty above for accepting the obvious facts. Although, it seems you did not review the Lane's link page for meaning of word . It is not just a possesive particle, but a word with meanings as mentioned above in my post.
Dear, without paying attention to the language one could not understand the message. This is the honest objective of my life. How, and how far, will I succeed? It is up to my Rabb. I can only make efforts. If you like we could discuss rest of the verse as well. In order, to confirm that rest of the translation in the link is perfectly according basic rules of Arabic Lexicon and grammar.
Badar
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Dear quickduck, I greatly appreciate your honesty above for accepting the obvious facts. Although, it seems you did not review the Lane's link page for meaning of word . It is not just a possesive particle, but a word with meanings as mentioned above in my post.
Badar
peace,
i'm just wondering why would you like me to learn arabic (my mother tongue) via an english lexicon?
I really Don't need it!! At least for a strongly obvious nickname (ie abu/abaa/abii lahab ) just like (abu/abaa/abii hurayra)Salam
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Peace
Are we one hundred percent sure that if in this day and age we grow up in an Arabic speaking family, we will be speaking and writing the exact same Arabic as was spoken and written 1400 years ago or more.
Also , please see that understanding of any thing can come from any source. Lanes lexicon is not at all an English Book. It is only an authentic translation of multiple Books, such as Lisaan ul Arab, taj al uroos, and multiple other books written by Arab speaking linguists and language experts, who were trying to preserve the classical arabic, in order to preserve the understanding of the Qur'Aanic language meanings. The authenticity of Qad ul Qamoos ( Lanes Lexicon) has never been disputed by the scholars, as he has not made any attempts at put anything on his own and he has never tried to translate the script of Qur'Aan.
He has simply tanslated all the meanings from the time of classical arabic, as expressed and given by the previous Arab linguistic experts, and hence is perhaps the most exhaustive work on such a subject.One should not feel ashamed at all by learning from these great Arab scholars whose work was translated painstakingly in more than 30 years by this great transltor of the previous Arabic lexicons. All languaes change in meaning, expression, script and even in concept over time. This was the main reason of the language preservation by these great Arab scholars centuries ago. I do not believe that any one can claim that in present day and age, we write and speak the exact same Arabic as was written and spoken by the Prophet and his Companions. Hence reference to these Books should always be made, just to be sure and careful, and then use our judgement. As an example, a mere statement by an English person, that he or she can understand every thing from Shakespeare, just because he or she grew up in an English family, is not sufficient enough reason to make one claim that he or she understand every thing that Shakespear said. The time difference between now and Shakespeare is only a few hundred years, and every thing seem to have changed. The time difference between classical arabic and the current era is over thousand years, so just imagine the slow changes that is bound to happen. Moreover the changes in language happens not only with time but the same language changes its form every 50 or 100 miles, even in the same country, especially in the olden days. Hence the preserved meaning sources for the area and the time where and when Qur'Aan was first revealed, becomes very imprtant, in order to avoid any misunderstanding.
I understand that we all have noble intentions and we all fear our Creator and try our best to understand His message. Hence all help is useful and not a waste of time.
Best regards and paryer for all those who are participating in this noble cause.
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One should not feel ashamed at all by learning from these great Arab scholars whose work was translated painstakingly in more than 30 years by this great transltor of the previous Arabic lexicons.
The one who made him or hired him to write and financed him and his family is perhaps also worthy of mention and our appreciation.
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Peace all,
I never disaprroved english lane's lexicon. What i said is that the same word could be a noun and a verb in the same time.
Let's took the english name/verb "reason"source http//www.thefreedictionary.com
As a Noun
Noun
- reason a rational motive for a belief or action; "the reason that war was declared"; "the grounds for their declaration"
rational motive - a motive that can be defended by reasoning or logical argument
occasion - reason; "there was no occasion for complaint"
account, score - grounds; "don't do it on my account"; "the paper was rejected on account of its length"; "he tried to blame the victim but his success on that score was doubtful"
wherefore, why - the cause or intention underlying an action or situation, especially in the phrase `the whys and wherefore
2. reason an explanation of the cause of some phenomenon; "the reason a steady state was never reached was that the back pressure built up too slowly"
explanation, account - a statement that makes something comprehensible by describing the relevant structure or operation or circumstances etc.; "the explanation was very simple"; "I expected a brief account"- reason the state of having good sense and sound judgment; "his rationality may have been impaired"; "he had to rely less on reason than on rousing their emotions"
rationality, reasonableness
saneness, sanity - normal or sound powers of mind - reason a justification for something existing or happening; "he had no cause to complain"; "they had good reason to rejoice"
cause, grounds, justification - a statement in explanation of some action or belief - reason a fact that logically justifies some premise or conclusion; "there is reason to believe he is lying"
fact - a piece of information about circumstances that exist or events that have occurred; "first you must collect all the facts of the case"
indication - (medicine) a reason to prescribe a drug or perform a procedure; "the presence of bacterial infection was an indication for the use of antibiotics"
contraindication - (medicine) a reason that makes it inadvisable to prescribe a particular drug or employ a particular procedure or treatment.
As a verb Verb
- reason - decide by reasoning; draw or come to a conclusion; "We reasoned that it was cheaper to rent than to buy a house" conclude, reason out cerebrate, cogitate, think - use or exercise the mind or one's power of reason in order to make inferences, decisions, or arrive at a solution or judgments; "I've been thinking all day and getting nowhere"
induce - reason or establish by induction
deduce, derive, infer, deduct - reason by deduction; establish by deduction
syllogise, syllogize - reason by syllogisms
feel, find - come to believe on the basis of emotion, intuitions, or indefinite grounds; "I feel that he doesn't like me"; "I find him to be obnoxious"; "I found the movie rather entertaining"
deduce, infer - conclude by reasoning; in logic
gather - conclude from evidence; "I gather you have not done your homework"
extrapolate, generalize, infer, generalise - draw from specific cases for more general cases. - reason - present reasons and arguments
argue
re-argue - argue again; "This politician will be forced into re-arguing an old national campaign"
present, lay out, represent - bring forward and present to the mind; "We presented the arguments to him"; "We cannot represent this knowledge to our formal reason"
expostulate - reason with (somebody) for the purpose of dissuasion
defend, fend for, support - argue or speak in defense of; "She supported the motion to strike" - reason - think logically; "The children must learn to reason"
cerebrate, cogitate, think - use or exercise the mind or one's power of reason in order to make inferences, decisions, or arrive at a solution or judgments; "I've been thinking all day and getting nowhere"
rationalise away, rationalize away - substitute a natural for a supernatural explanation of; "you can rationalize away all the strange noises you hear--there is no poltergeist in the house!"
theorize - form or construct theories; "he thinks and theorizes all day"
theorize - construct a theory about; "Galileo theorized the motion of the stars"
ratiocinate - reason methodologically and logically
compute, calculate, cipher, cypher, figure, reckon, work out - make a mathematical calculation or computation
categorise, categorize - place into or assign to a category; "Children learn early on to categorize"
speculate - talk over conjecturally, or review in an idle or casual way and with an element of doubt or without sufficient reason to reach a conclusion; "We were speculating whether the President had to resign after the scandal"
As you can see, the same word can be used as well as a noun AND as a verb!
But, depending on the context, one should easily figure out whether the form used is a noun or a verb.
ex if i tell you " i have no reason to agree with you"
Do you take as a noun, or as a verb ?
salam
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Salaam,
Lesson in English.
Definition of a noun A word used as the designation or appellation of a creature
or thing, existing in fact or in thought; a substantive.
To put it simply a noun is a name, like 'that's a chair', chair, would be a name so a noun.
Definition of a verb A word which affirms or predicates something of
some person or thing; a part of speech expressing being,
action, or the suffering of action.
To put it simply a verb is a descriptive word, like 'I smashed the chair', smashed would be an action so a verb.
So 'reason' within your example you give, is an adjective.
Definition of an adjective A word used with a noun, or substantive, to
express a quality of the thing named, or something
attributed to it, or to limit or define it, or to specify
or describe a thing, as distinct from something else.
Thus, in phrase, "a wise ruler," wise is the adjective,
expressing a property of ruler.
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Salaam Quickduck,
you demonstrate within you post an absolute failure to grasp the very basics of the English language, you apply nouns, and verbs as interchangeable when you are in fact wrong on both counts, when the word 'reason' is an adjective, then you ask me what it has to do with the Arabic you have explained with gibberish.
If you do not understand English at even a very basic level, what makes you think you have the ability to present yourself as an expert in explaining Arabic to English?
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Salaam Quickduck,
you demonstrate within you post an absolute failure to grasp the very basics of the English language, you apply nouns, and verbs as interchangeable when you are in fact wrong on both counts, when the word 'reason' is an adjective, then you ask me what it has to do with the Arabic you have explained with gibberish.
If you do not understand English at even a very basic level, what makes you think you have the ability to present yourself as an expert in explaining Arabic to English?
where did you see me presenting myself as an expert in explaining Arabic to English ?
Let me re-quote myself
is composed of two parts (wich means father) and a "grammatical "
the second word (lahab ) means "flame".
So "Abi lahab" means literarly father of the flame.Let me explain
I bet everyone here knows the infamous abou hurayra , translated as ''father of a little cat'' . it has the same form as "abou lahab" . (BTW, we should not translate them because they are kind of compound names/nicknames used by the arabs to show repect or to differenciate between people with the same first name or even for fun).
Now this form of nicknaming may have 3 grammatical "states"
1- Marfoo3 , ie .when standalone or in the beginning of the sentence.
(Abou lahab .... Abou hurayra
2- Mansoob , When used as complement of a verb (ex I killed Abaa lahab .... I hate Abaa hurayra)3- Majroor , after some grammatical particles. (i dont agree with Abii lahab.... i will start by Abii hurayra)
so it is a noun , not a verb )
Hope this helps ..
Salam
P.S my english is not as rich as my arabic, so excuse me if i didn't use the correct words to express my answer.
you see ? are the words in red from someone pretending to by any expert in translating arabic to english ? whatever
We are discussing an ARABIC word (ي in an ARABIC Quran. we have to do it in english only because this forum is english.
I don't need any translation or subtitles when reading the Quran, because i read it in Arabic. muscle
Moreover, do you know the "five names rule" in arabic grammar ??
check this out
http//ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D8%B3%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%A1_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AE%D9%85%D8%B3%D8%A9For non-arabic speakers This rule talks about five names/words being as un exception to grammatical rules.
While every name/word has to be Marfoo3 with dhomma, Mansoob with fatha and majroor with kesra , those 5 names ( و are
1- marfoo3 with waw
2-Mansoob with alif
3-Majroor with yaaNow, is that helping you understand the ''Abii lahab" in 1111 ??
If not, i don't feel myself able to explain anymore !
Salam
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Quickduck, weldone, but you have given link which is in Arabic.
Here it is in English
The Six Nounshttp//arabic.tripod.com/SixNouns.htm
Thank you Mazhar, i couldnt find it in english, you did !
BTW, it is very instructive. Now i know what are the english names for "marfoo3" = nominative, "mansoob" = accusative and "majroor" = genitive.
Salam
P.S because the 5th noun (ن is too rarely used, the six nouns are much known as "the five nouns"
But, the three Mousqueteers were 4 !!! )