Petra the "Sacred City"
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I have seen the "Sacred City" documentary that is on youtube. The person who made the documentary is Dan Gibson, who has also written a book on the topic. The documentary shows that all of the earliest known mosques after the death of the Prophet, up to 120 years after, all have their qiblas facing Petra (not Jerusalem or Mecca). Gibson states that, during the reign of the first Abbasid Caliph, Ibn Zubair, during his war with the Ummayads based on Damascus, he destroyed the Kaaba (then in Petra) and took its bricks, along with the black stone, and re-built the Kaaba to and founded what is now Mecca. This created a schism within the Muslim world, and those who were allied with the Abbasids switched their qiblas towards Mecca, while others took a neutral stand, and chose to make their qiblas midway between Petra and Mecca, and others (like in Ummayad Spain) chose qiblas facing a parallel direction to the distance between Petra and Mecca. During the time of the Prophet, Mecca could not have been the "Mother of All Cities" as it is not mentioned in any text until 740 AD, was never located on any trade route, was completely devoid of vegetation (ie., no harvesting of dates, olives and pomegranates as the Quran describes) and does not generally fit any of the descriptions of where the Prophet lived according to hadith and seera. Regardless of what one thinks of what Mecca may have been, the fact of the earliest mosques all having their qiblas facing Petra is certainly compelling. So too is the divergences of various qiblas for mosques built during and after Ibn Zubair's reign.
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Hajj is one of the pillars of Islam and is to be performed at the Masjid al-Haram. The assertion is that Petra is the location, not Mecca. That would be the importance of the Sacred City in this context. Further, if the Abbasids managed to change even this, then one can only imagine what else they changed.
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This whole idea that the kaaba was in petra then moved to mecca is nonsense. the Kaaba existed before Abraham all he did was make it a centre of monotheistic rituals away from idol worshipping site as it once was by removing it all the dieltes and adornments with the help of his son ishmael. the hajj did not change. arabs can hardly get rid of jewish traditions that are still practiced today do you honestly believe that they'd destroy the whole kaaba and rebuild it elsewhere. i don't believe in this nonsense, there is only 1 kaaba and its only been the one in Saudi Arabia i'm afraid. nothing so profoundly can easily be changed in Arabia, they've fought the ethiopian king Abraha who marched towards arabia and wanted to destroy the Kaaba itself and he couldn't.
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to tulipred-muslima
What is your evidence that the Kaaba has always been in Mecca?
How would you explain all of the earliest mosques with a qibla other than both Jerusalem and Mecca, and all towards Petra? -
Peace .
Is this also another fact?
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW0FrgSd80k&t=51s
One should dig deep about these claims and look for solid evidence .
Easy to believe all sorts of "facts".
The same can be said about digging deeper for Dan Gibson s background ,motives and works. Look for solid "evidence" .
To me ,I have not found any evidence overwhelming? But just plenty of Theories and assumptions .
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
to tulipred-muslima
What is your evidence that the Kaaba has always been in Mecca?
How would you explain all of the earliest mosques with a qibla other than both Jerusalem and Mecca, and all towards Petra?ALL THE EARLY MOSQUES THE PROPHET ORDERED TO BE BUILT AND THE 4 CALIPHS AFTER HIM, THE QIBLA WAS TOWARDS MECCA, IN SAUDI ARABIA. THE FAMOUS MOSQUE THE PROPHET ORDERED TO BE BUILT IN YEMEN WAS DIRECTED TOWARDS THE KAABA IN MECCA. THIS HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE FOR THE PROPHET AND THE 4 CALIPHS ITS ALWAYS BEEN 1 ESSENTIAL DIRECTION.
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tulipred-muslima,
That is precisely the assertion that is being challenged. Rather than dismissing outright what someone else says, i think it more constructive to actually prove it wrong. Can you produce evidence that overrides the qibla measurements that Dan Gibson asserts? Otherwise, i am inclined to give more credibility to someone who presents something to me with effort rather than someone who just asserts old tales. Don't get me wrong - i do not necessarily believe Dan Gibson, but i do not find it credible or constructive to just rely on what i am told by imams from the pulpit. -
Salam,
Petra is Mecca in Quran, while Jerusalem is Bakka in Quran.
You also have to consider the fact that Israel will fall a second time and the Sacred Temple will be retaken. This is only possible in "Israeli" territory. Petra/Mecca is in Jordan.
Salam
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This whole idea that the kaaba was in petra then moved to mecca is nonsense. the Kaaba existed before Abraham all he did was make it a centre of monotheistic rituals away from idol worshipping site as it once was by removing it all the dieltes and adornments with the help of his son ishmael. the hajj did not change. arabs can hardly get rid of jewish traditions that are still practiced today do you honestly believe that they'd destroy the whole kaaba and rebuild it elsewhere. i don't believe in this nonsense, there is only 1 kaaba and its only been the one in Saudi Arabia i'm afraid. nothing so profoundly can easily be changed in Arabia, they've fought the ethiopian king Abraha who marched towards arabia and wanted to destroy the Kaaba itself and he couldn't.
Then why no historical evidence of the prophets of bani israeel or their people ever coming to Mecca to perform ritual of hajj which was established by their father Abraham?
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tulipred-muslima,
The Quran makes reference to the harvesting of dates, pomegranates and olives as one of His Signs to be witnessed by the Believers. The Mecca of today has not ever had any of these, or any other crop. While Medina, as an oasis,may have had dates and pomegranates, it certainly did not have olives. Olives were an exclusively Mediterranean crop. If the Believers are in Mecca and Medina only, then how to explain the witnessing of the harvesting of olives for the Believers as a Sign when this Sign was taking place 1000 km away? -
Peace,
Petra and Madain Saleh or Al Ula are twin cities, they are identical and you can find the satanic temples that exist in Petra also exist in Madain Saleh. The satanic arabs at the time of Muhammad used to worship 3 female satans known by the name of allet, manet and uzza as angels daughters of Allah. And the people that lived there were powerful. You can read what i said here https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dushara
In the Quran, Petra and Madain Saleh are called the two cities or twin cities
And they said, "Why was this Qur'an not sent down upon a great man from the two cities?"
(4331).So have you considered al-Lat and al-'Uzza? And Manat, the third - the other one? Is the male for you and for Him the female?
(5320).They call upon instead of Him none but female , and they call upon none but a rebellious Satan.
(4117).The documentary shows that all of the earliest known mosques after the death of the Prophet, up to 120 years after, all have their qiblas facing Petra (not Jerusalem or Mecca).
The earliest mosques known to us, Masjid al-Haram, Al-Masjid al-Nabawi, Quba Mosque all face towards Mecca. I did not verify the claims that some mosques pointed towards Petra or Ula but lets just accept this for the sake of the argument, how do we know the building that pointed towards Petra is Islamic or even Quranic? Is there like a Quranic way of building mosques or did the Quran even command people to build Masjids? Masjids and places of worship existed way before Muhammad. But lets even accept that the building is Islamic, doesn't it mean that after the death of Muhammad some hypocrites turned back on their hills and worshiped the dirty female satans in Petra? well it does.
Anyway the guy who made the theory was confronted by a Muslim and it was proven that he was intelectually dishonest.
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y9ih4pt8_ASome historical proofs for Mecca are presented here if you want to read
http//www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,2254.0.html?PHPSESSID=9686d7c522b1c20696cb33c53f4607e6 -
Hajj was established by abraham over 4000 yrs ago there is no proof that it was in petra. Allah called mecca "umm al qura" NOT mother of all "citiies". "al qura" means a place were all people perform the same thing and live in a similar manner. whenever the word qura alone is mentioned in the quran it suggests a non changing place.
we have plenty of hadiths at least 1 should suggest petra by name if dan gibson's suggestion is right since the people who wrote hadith went in full unnecessary detail about the prophets travels, what he did and what he ate and how he slept. the last famous sermon of the prophet were he performed hajj was non other than in mecca saudi arabia. Hajj was a non changing pilgramage everybody did what they saw the prophet do. the prophet was an arab from arabia god did not send him to petra to perform hajj. if the abbassid at one point changed the qibla for political reasons then i don't see how that effects the hajj pilgrimage or its location. people and the 4 caliphs performed hajj the same way they saw the prophet do. Theres never been another kaaba elsewhere other than the one in arabia.
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Now Masjid Al Haram in Mecca is full of polytheist So Allah revealed to you
O you who have believed indeed the polytheists are unclean, so let them not approach al-Masjid al-Haram( after this, their year).And if you fear privation, Allah will enrich you from His bounty if He wills. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Wise.
(Even though your number are very few you should not fear because if you are 20 you can over come 200 plus Allah will reinforce you with more than 5000 Angels)
House of Allah is ruled by polytheist rotfl something need to be done about this , this is a serious matter.
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Why there has to be any holy city at all. Wouldn't all cities be holy? They are all in God'earth, on te earth God created.
Holyness is not something of the heart?No, Holiness is something that is declared and set by a ruler.
Then why no historical evidence of the prophets of bani israeel or their people ever coming to Mecca to perform ritual of hajj which was established by their father Abraham?
Because they never had such ritual.
Hajj was established by abraham over 4000 yrs ago there is no proof that it was in petra.
There is no evidence that Abraham established any ritual.
There is no evidence that Abraham established any ritual in Petra or any other places.
There is no evidence that the ritual named Hajj today in Saudi Arabia was established by Abraham.
There is no evidence that the ritual named Hajj today in Saudi Arabia was performed by Abraham, Solomon, David, Jesus, Moses, John or other Israelites / Judaist figures.Yet why does anyone need such evidence?
If anyone wanted to established any ritual anywhere, Mecca, Yemen, Jerusalem, Fuji Mountain, Red Rock, Borobudur Temple, Angkor Wat etc.. feel free to do so! -
Abraham is an allegory for word RHM/Rahman, also analogous with Hindu Brahma, i.e. God of Creation, like it or not. Translated as "Father of Creation/Womb/rhm or simply Father Creator. For some reason Arabic uses hainstead of Ha in Ibrahim, probably a deception by early scribes. A ritual of circulating around the cube symbolizes universal law, the quintessence of life and death. The cube itself is an old hermetic symbol of the universe, also nicely depicted in the Zionist' "Star of David", which symbolizes four main elements, which combined create the symbol of a star and the cube inside. The cube itself represents the twelve, as it contains twelve lines needed to draw a cube. Twelve is a number of time and reality, it represents 12 calendar months/one year symbolizing the cycle of human life. This is the level of predestination.
Why they circulate around it for 7 times is the symbol of representation of human life cycle and spiritual development within the universe, 7 heavens or 7 chakras or seven planets (as depicted in ancient cosmology) and the days of the week. This is the level of will. You do not really have a free will considering you did not even choose to be born and a lion's share of your life was controlled by the outside forces. But the more you learn and the wiser you become the less mistakes you make and your decisions become calculated rather than spontaneous. You also learn to take responsibility, instead of following orders of your parents/teachers/spiritual teachers/government and sort of. You are never 100% free, however, it depends on how you define freedom. The knowledge shall set you free is the wise saying.
Together 12+7 give 19, which is summarized in the bism-allahu-al-rahman-al-raheem, which is the summarized abbreviation of the Cosmic/Universal Law and Creation and birth. Numerology freaks probably never thought about the symbol of 19, they would rather parrot how many times they find this number in the book rather than try to percieve it's meaning, symbol behind it.
The covenant between Ab-Raham and God is the allegory for the bounding force between the Creator and the Creation, what above so below and vise versa. To live in harmony with the Cosmic law is to respect the Creator and the Creation, to "transgress" is to break the covenant, which is never broken actually but my backfire you in the ass, i.e. the karmic law. Word Allah comes from root ALH which means 'binding unity'. The creation is never separate from the creator.
Of course the cunning clergy and the rulers (teachers of the law and PH-risees/Fe-ru-s/ph-ra-oh-sees) know about this stuff and feed you garbage. Why they live in harmony with the Cosmic law is because they are wiser than the pasture and the pasture is who follows orders. Giving out an order and to execute it are very opposite things, the latter is what is usually percieved as taking responsibility, even though such 'responsibility' is created by manipulation and hierarchy. A slave is never really responsible for his/her life, because his/her responsibility is taken by the above standing.
There is also no such thing of human nature or the notion that human is an animal. Human is a 100% consciousness equipped with a weak body, which is not even adapted to the wild nature and needs shelter, clothing and hundreds of other precautious actions to survive, none of which are needed for an animal. Even lust and the passion towards female body and fetishes are 100% culturally formed. There are still tribes who run around naked and do not care about naked female counterparts around them. Since the day of birth you absorb cultural patterns in you, which develop ego in you, i.e. your perception towards the self. Culture defines who you are and unless one can think "outside of the box" (the very expression speaks for itself) you will remain confined. This forum is a fantastic example of a cognitive dissonance of people following the dogmas and cultural cliche, which are deprived of their respective symbolism, yet calling themselves "free minds", with an exception of a few.
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No, Holiness is something that is declared and set by a ruler.
Because they never had such ritual.
There is no evidence that Abraham established any ritual.
There is no evidence that Abraham established any ritual in Petra or any other places.
There is no evidence that the ritual named Hajj today in Saudi Arabia was established by Abraham.LOL DO YOU READ THE QURAN?. I HATE TO SAY THIS BUT ITS SHOCKING THAT PEOPLE WANT OUR FAITH CENTRED AROUND THE QURAN THEN DENY HAJJ. DO YOU PEOPLE ACTUALLY SIT DOWN AND READ THE SCRIPTURE AND FOLLOW ABRAHAM'S JOURNEY IN THE QURAN FROM START TO FINISH AND HIS DUTY AND WHAT HE DID TILL HIS THE END?. THE MAJORITY ARE TALKING FOR JUST TALKING WITHOUT ACTUALLY HAVING ANY KNOWLEDGE.
There is no evidence that the ritual named Hajj today in Saudi Arabia was performed by Abraham, Solomon, David, Jesus, Moses, John or other Israelites / Judaist figures.
IN ORDER TO FIND OUT YOU NEED TO GO THROUGH ALL 3 SCRIPTURES WORD FOR WORD AND SEE FOR YOURSELF AND NOT TALK OUT OF NONSENSE.
Yet why does anyone need such evidence?
If anyone wanted to established any ritual anywhere, Mecca, Yemen, Jerusalem, Fuji Mountain, Red Rock, Borobudur Temple, Angkor Wat etc.. feel free to do so!NOW THATS RIDICULOUS. YH ESTABLISH YOUR ONE HAJJ AND CIRLE AROUND YOUR OWN HOUSE AND CALL IT ALLAHS PILGRIMAGE. IF YOU DONT WANT TO GO HAJJ THEN DONT BUT STOP WITH THIS NONSENSE. THE EVIDENCE IS IN THE SCRIPTURE WHICH YOU CLEARLY DONT BOTHER TO READ.
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No, Holiness is something that is declared and set by a ruler.
Because they never had such ritual.
There is no evidence that Abraham established any ritual.
There is no evidence that Abraham established any ritual in Petra or any other places.
There is no evidence that the ritual named Hajj today in Saudi Arabia was established by Abraham.LOL DO YOU READ THE QURAN?. I HATE TO SAY THIS BUT ITS SHOCKING THAT PEOPLE WANT OUR FAITH CENTRED AROUND THE QURAN THEN DENY HAJJ. DO YOU PEOPLE ACTUALLY SIT DOWN AND READ THE SCRIPTURE AND FOLLOW ABRAHAM'S JOURNEY IN THE QURAN FROM START TO FINISH AND HIS DUTY AND WHAT HE DID TILL HIS THE END?. THE MAJORITY ARE TALKING FOR JUST TALKING WITHOUT ACTUALLY HAVING ANY KNOWLEDGE.
There is no evidence that the ritual named Hajj today in Saudi Arabia was performed by Abraham, Solomon, David, Jesus, Moses, John or other Israelites / Judaist figures.
IN ORDER TO FIND OUT YOU NEED TO GO THROUGH ALL 3 SCRIPTURES WORD FOR WORD AND SEE FOR YOURSELF AND NOT TALK OUT OF NONSENSE.
Yet why does anyone need such evidence?
If anyone wanted to established any ritual anywhere, Mecca, Yemen, Jerusalem, Fuji Mountain, Red Rock, Borobudur Temple, Angkor Wat etc.. feel free to do so!NOW THATS RIDICULOUS. YH ESTABLISH YOUR ONE HAJJ AND CIRLE AROUND YOUR OWN HOUSE AND CALL IT ALLAHS PILGRIMAGE. IF YOU DONT WANT TO GO HAJJ THEN DONT BUT STOP WITH THIS NONSENSE. THE EVIDENCE IS IN THE SCRIPTURE WHICH YOU CLEARLY DONT BOTHER TO READ.
It seems you have a broken keyboard?
