Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...

ayman

Peace Hope4,

I like what you said and it reminds me of this verse from the Quran
4911 O you who believe, let not any people ridicule other people, for
they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other
women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock
one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the
name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does
not repent, then these are the transgressors.

7431 makes it clear that those who are attracted to counting 19 are unappreciative. It also clealy states that those unappreciative and those who have a disease in their hearts/minds would ask "what did the god intend by this example?" Do you think that 7431 is "mocking" and "ridiculing"? Do you think that 7431 applies to some theoretical non-existent people or does it apply to actual people and we can see and empirically verify the truth in 7431? How can you compare verfying the truth in 7431 by matching it to the attitude of people attracted to the temptation of counting 19 to "mocking" and "ridiculing"?

Is pointing out to people that Code 19 or the Hadiths of the fly dipping are nonsense "ridiculing"? Why is pointing out the nonsense in the Hadith of Bukhari OK while pointing it in the Hadith of Khalifa not OK?

If you want to talk about mocking then Khalifa mocked and insulted the intelligence of his followers when he deliberately showed only his successful trials and hid thousands of failed trials and falsified his data. It is not my problem that Khalifa's dream and his obsession with superficial looks is exactly the same ridiculous and illogical attitude of the most extreme sectarians.

I simply don't want my children to read after I am dead Khalifa's nonsense or Bukahri's nonsense and have faith in them and get misguided without having the opportunity to see a logical counterargument.

Peace,

Ayman

hope4

Peace Hope4,

7431 makes it clear that those who are attracted to counting 19 are unappreciative. It also clealy states that those unappreciative and those who have a disease in their hearts/minds would ask "what did the god intend by this example?" Do you think that 7431 is "mocking" and "ridiculing"? Do you think that 7431 applies to some theoretical non-existent people or does it apply to actual people and we can see and empirically verify the truth in 7431? How can you compare verfying the truth in 7431 by matching it to the attitude of people attracted to the temptation of counting 19 to "mocking" and "ridiculing"?

Is pointing out to people that Code 19 or the Hadiths of the fly dipping are nonsense "ridiculing"? Why is pointing out the nonsense in the Hadith of Bukhari OK while pointing it in the Hadith of Khalifa not OK?

If you want to talk about mocking then Khalifa mocked and insulted the intelligence of his followers when he deliberately showed only his successful trials and hid thousands of failed trials and falsified his data. It is not my problem that Khalifa's dream and his obsession with superficial looks is exactly the same ridiculous and illogical attitude of the most extreme sectarians.

I simply don't want my children to read after I am dead Khalifa's nonsense or Bukahri's nonsense and have faith in them and get misguided without having the opportunity to see a logical counterargument.

Peace,

Ayman

Selam Ayman

I totally understand you and am greatful to you and others like you who look for sensible, logical proofs and discuss them in a proper manner. What I ment with my post is that sometimes by ridiculing others is not helpful as the focus of the discussion becomes personal rather than focused on the issues in hand. I maybe wrong but thats how I feel. If we stick to the facts and discuss them I feel this is much better. May Allah be pleased with the work you and others are doing on this site.

Peace

ayman

Peace Hope4,

I totally understand you and am greatful to you and others like you who look for sensible, logical proofs and discuss them in a proper manner. What I ment with my post is that sometimes by ridiculing others is not helpful as the focus of the discussion becomes personal rather than focused on the issues in hand. I maybe wrong but thats how I feel. If we stick to the facts and discuss them I feel this is much better. May Allah be pleased with the work you and others are doing on this site.

Yes. Unfortunately, when discussing with those who are attracted to the temptation of counting 19, they never present all the facts and discuss them. The only reason some people still believe in Code 19 is that the Code 19 hunters are not sharing all the facts. If they presented all the facts (both successful and failed trials of their numerology) then there wouldn't be anything to discuss and everyone would be able to see the truth right away.

Peace,

Ayman

RA786

Peace Ayman,

But this is What I am not realizing...

I dont see HOW believeing in the Code 19 would at all be ridiculing or "going against" the Great reading (Quran) in Any way.
In All actuality, I feel it has INCREASED my faith and Love for Islam...(as an addition to the Qurans Great miracles.)

If there is a Group of Quran Aloners who believe in the Code 19...And Believe it is Only 1 of Many of the Great Miracles that are in the Quran that was creaded by Allah Allmighty... How exactly do you justify your claim against them by making allegations that they are Ridiculing the Quran and have a Disease in their Heart?

What Kind of Disease is it?
Quranamathalosis? -a condition where patients believe in a mathamatical miracle that interlocks/protects all of the Quran.
Would you really call that a Disease? it doesnt seem like a disease to me.

Would you say the same thing about someone who believes in the other mircales of the Quran? Such as the Embryology of a Child? the Measrure of Rain and Water cycle? and the Bioluminesence?
All of these are also Scientific Miracles in the Quran in which I too believe however ANY SCIENTIST (who's a non-muslim) WILL tell you that ALL of these Supposed "Quran Miracles of Science" are Flawed, Erronious, manipulated, fake, and Only created to make Some Deluded Mind believe in Miracles of a Supposed GOD.

So whats the difference between them and you Ayman? They say the exact same thing about those miracles.

Here is the Main Questions/Points I would like to Bring up to you Ayman, if Possible.

*1. Muslims Believe the the Quran IS "Protected" by somekind of "Divine Code"/Seal/Lock/etc... And they use this to encourage others to join ISLAM because of this. Muslims Believe Allah (GOD ALMIGHTY) has protected the Quran from being Changed/distorted/deleted..etc...

SO MY QUESTION to you IS A) Do you believe that the Quran is Protected?
B) Can you "PROVE" that the Quran is Protected?

1B- It would seem a little Odd to believe that the Quran IS protected and not being able to Prove so for the simple fact that many people have actually Created their own Qurans. They over the years, have Deleted/Distorted/Tampered/Un-locked/etc.... the Quran.

There are numerious different Qurans in the world are there not?

If a Guy Named Joe Wartime decided one day that He wanted to Take 13 vereses out of the Quran, Then Wrote his Own Vereses...Then took some lyrics from a couple Michael Jackson Records...and then put them into his Book and called it "The Holy Quran"....Then went to a forighn Country that never Heard of the Quran and They read it as such....."WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO HIM"?
Is he going to Burst into Fire? Is Lightning going to strike him? Is Allah Going to Stop him? (I dont know)...

BUT!! What I DO know, is that this in many examples has ALREADY HAPPENED.

*Where was the Lock/Seal/Protection that Allah talked about when Rashad Khalifah Took out Two Vereses?
*Where was the Lock/Seal/Protection that Allah has Talked about when some Kaffir Forged a Ayat Called Surah 911 and wrote it himself?
*Where was the Lock/Seal/Protection that Allah has talked about when you have different Qurans made, and Even going to STILL BE made to this Day that are 100% Different from ANY quran you have? (-Daniel Pips I hear is working on this Project Btw)

SO WHERE IS This Supposed "Lock/Protection/absence of any error or doubt/Seal that was placeed in the Quran?

I believe it to be Mathamatical. Code 19 seems like the most Likley Canidate that was choses by God to be used.
Allah is the master of Creation, Mathamatics, and Science.

So far Code 19 has Given me an Answer as to "What and Where is the Seal/Protection/Code that was talked about in the Quran.

If you have a better Answer Please Share...I am Dying to know. Where this Seal/Protection is and how to varify it. D

RA786

Peace Hope4,

Yes. Unfortunately, when discussing with those who are attracted to the temptation of counting 19, they never present all the facts and discuss them. The only reason some people still believe in Code 19 is that the Code 19 hunters are not sharing all the facts. If they presented all the facts (both successful and failed trials of their numerology) then there wouldn't be anything to discuss and everyone would be able to see the truth right away.

Peace,

Ayman

So whats the Truth? That there IS NO Code 19?

*That there is NO Seal/Protection on the Quran?
*That the Quran is Open and Subject to change over time depending on Location/Culture/Society like Every Other Book ever created..

Edip_Yuksel

I had discussed this issue in detail with Ayman a few years ago. Those who are interested to hear both sides, please visit the BOOKS section of www.19.org

Peace,
Edip

david_rs_aitken

Code 19 seems like the most Likley Canidate that was choses by God to be used. Allah is the master of Creation, Mathamatics, and Science.

The problem with attributing a numerological code to the book of the god is that the god has already descended clarifying signs to protect us from the temptation of numerology.

7426-31 I will cast him in the scorching heat. Do you know what the scorching heat is? It does not spare nor leave anything; obvious to humanity. On it are ninteen, and we have not made associates of the fire except "angels" and we have not made their count except as a temptation for the rejectors - so that those who were given the book would understand, those who had faith would increase in faith, and those who were given the book and those who had faith would have no doubt. ...

Khalifa knew that he was playing games with numbers. In 1973 he released a small book called "Miracle of the Quran Significance of the Mysterious Alphabets" and attracted some attention from Egypt's Akher Saah ( &#1577 (http//www.akhbarelyom.org.eg/). At this point - 1973 - he had not yet been tempted to manipulate his numbers into false multiples of 19. He reported the following

Chapter 2 - ALM - 9465 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 3 - ALM - 5714 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 7 - ALMS - 5349 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 10 - ALR - 2522 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 11 - ALR - 2514 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 12 - ALR - 2405 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 14 - ALR - 1206 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 15 - ALR - 922 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 29 - ALM - 1682 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 30 - ALM - 1261 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 31 - ALM - 823 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 32 - ALM - 581 (not a multiple of 19)

In 1974, when he was tempted by 19, he deliberately manipulated the data

Chapter 2 - ALM - 9899 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 3 - ALM - 5662 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 7 - ALMS - 5320 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 10 - ALR - 2489 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 11 - ALR - 2489 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 12 - ALR - 2375 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 14 - ALR - 1197 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 15 - ALR - 912 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 29 - ALM - 1672 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 30 - ALM - 1254 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 31 - ALM - 817 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 32 - ALM - 570 (a falsified multiple of 19)

Edip is no different. In order to make 1974 the year of his messengers' prophecy, he continues to lie about the basic structure of the reading. He says that the gematrical value of 741-2 is 1974 - a great miracle in his mind (http//19.org/index.php?aid=257). If you apply the innovated gematrical value system to 741-2, the value is actually 1973. Edip added an alif to support his lies.

Numerology can be used to prove anything, including Khalifa's racist hope that the god would wipe out "the Arabs"

http//img708.imageshack.us/img708/9915/19manipulation.png

When you witness the temptation of counting 19, your faith will increase and you will have no doubt. If you're excited by counting 19, then you're being tempted to waste your time on non-existent miracles. May the god protect us from temptation and guide us to study the reading to keep our faces oriented towards truth, not superficial rituals or numerological number games.

Peace,

-David

RA786

peace david....

But maybe I am just stupid or something because I SILL dont understand How counting is a temptation.

How would believing in the Code 19 be a temptation? How could simply believeing in a Mircle (either true or false) be a temptation?

Is it A) Shirk?No
B) an Intoxicant? No..
C) a game of Chance? uh...your not really "gambling" so I'd say No.
D)a partner to Allah? No..

So really....How "bad" could it be? and not only that...how do you know that the verese Quoted above is in the exact Context in which you are using it?
I am going to have to look at the Root-words in that verese to see if it is really talking about that in the way you are using it.

Believing that a Rainbow is a Miracle of God is Cool...some will say it is and some say its not.
How is believeing in a Mathamatical not good?

Btw...nobody replyed to my post about a movie I saw.
So I'll post it again here...Let me know what you all think.
The Torah has this Numerology type of Code...Can the same be used for the Quran?
Video Number 2 Torah, Kabbalah, and Numbers.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcN2i9GKsFQ

Link fixed

Mazhar

How could simply believeing in a Mircle (either true or false) be a temptation?

What do you think is the Arabic word for 'Miracle" used in the Grand Qur'aan?

RA786

What do you think is the Arabic word for 'Miracle" used in the Grand Qur'aan?

The Arabic words fatanoo (&#1575 is derived from the root word fitnah (&#1577, which literally means temptation, or putting someone to the test, or putting someone in a situation where your intention is to cause him/her to fail. It is as the English translation says a trial. It also means trying to create a conflict or trouble, either to someone or between people.

1- According to Google's Online Arabic-English Dictionary, (verb of &#1577 means

enthrall
enchant
captivate
infatuate
spellbind
mesmerize
witch
seduce
tempt
magnetize
ravish
charm
2- According to the Arabic-English dictionary the Hans Wehr dictionary , page 696, means

temptation
trial
charm
charmingness
enchantment
captivation
enticement
infatuation
intrigue
sedition
riot
discord
dissension
3- According to Google's Online Arabic-English Dictionary, means

sedition
temptation
trial
seduction
4- According to the Arabic-English dictionary the Hans Wehr dictionary , page 695, (verb of &#1577 means

to subject to temptation or trials
seduce
tempt
entice
allure
beguile
to enamor
enchant
captivate
enthrall
enrapture
infatuate
charm

Is Miracle = to Fitna?

P.S... Nobody has yet answered if the Quran follows the same Numerology type of System that the Torah has. (as posted in the video).
and I hvent found any opinions.

ayman

Peace RA786,

I dont see HOW believeing in the Code 19 would at all be ridiculing or "going against" the Great reading (Quran) in Any way.
In All actuality, I feel it has INCREASED my faith and Love for Islam...(as an addition to the Qurans Great miracles.)

Has it really increased your faith? If so, why are you asking

BUT!! What I DO know, is that this in many examples has ALREADY HAPPENED.
*Where was the Lock/Seal/Protection that Allah talked about when Rashad Khalifah Took out Two Vereses?
*Where was the Lock/Seal/Protection that Allah has Talked about when some Kaffir Forged a Ayat Called Surah 911 and wrote it himself?
*Where was the Lock/Seal/Protection that Allah has talked about when you have different Qurans made, and Even going to STILL BE made to this Day that are 100% Different from ANY quran you have? (-Daniel Pips I hear is working on this Project Btw)
SO WHERE IS This Supposed "Lock/Protection/absence of any error or doubt/Seal that was placeed in the Quran?

The protection is the god himself. So you are literally asking "where is the god?" This is the kind of question a rejecting aetheist would normally ask. Is this the kind of question that your "increase in faith" led you to?!

The god himself protects the reminder. But the reminder is only there for those who use their intellect to remember. As for those who forgot their own selves and are busy pursuing temptations there is no reminder to begin with to preserve or not preserve.

Let me give you an example of the god's protection. Sectarians, Khalifa and 19ers believed that the word "mecca" in 4824 refers to the city in Saudi Arabia named Mecca. However, when one uses his or her intellect to ponder upon the god's signs and remember then one can easily see that the word "mecca" is actually a common noun that means "destruction", which fits perfectly in the context of war in the passage. So for sectarians, Khalifa and 19ers since they didn't use their intellect to remember then 4824 was not preserved no matter that the letters and words contained in it are preserved. On the other hand for those who have faith, the fact that sectarians willingly or unwillingly were forced to hijack a common noun in the great reading to name their pagan city is empirically verifiable truth that the great reading is preserved. It would have been infinitely easier to insert whatever pagan city name "x" in the great reading. So not only did the rejecter's scheme increased their loss, it actually fired back in their face and increased the faith of those who have faith. So you see the reminder is preserved ONLY for those who remember. As for those who forgot themselves there is no reminder to begin with to preserve or not.

So as in the case of "mecca" where the attitude and actions of the rejecters would actually help those who have faith increase in faith, the same goes for the attitude and actions of the rejecters who are attracted to the temptation of counting 19. We see them hiding the truth about their failed trials and we see them knowingly lie and deceive and falsify and at the end those who follow them and believe in them are not guided and are practically asking "where is the god?" This is because they put their faith in a false code more than they put their faith in the god like those who are emotionally attracted to the pagan Mecca put their faith in traditions more than they put their faith in the god. We see the attitude of Khalifa and his followers and as result our faith in the great reading and in 9128-129 increases. Similarly, we see sectarians attitude and abrogation of the great reading with Hadiths and how they became lost and as a result our faith in the great reading increases.

If there is a Group of Quran Aloners who believe in the Code 19...And Believe it is Only 1 of Many of the Great Miracles that are in the Quran that was creaded by Allah Allmighty... How exactly do you justify your claim against them by making allegations that they are Ridiculing the Quran and have a Disease in their Heart?
What Kind of Disease is it?
Quranamathalosis? -a condition where patients believe in a mathamatical miracle that interlocks/protects all of the Quran.
Would you really call that a Disease? it doesnt seem like a disease to me.

Yes it is a disease. Just ask them about their failed trials and why they are hiding the truth about their failed trials and you will see the disease.

Would you say the same thing about someone who believes in the other mircales of the Quran? Such as the Embryology of a Child? the Measrure of Rain and Water cycle? and the Bioluminesence?
All of these are also Scientific Miracles in the Quran in which I too believe however ANY SCIENTIST (who's a non-muslim) WILL tell you that ALL of these Supposed "Quran Miracles of Science" are Flawed, Erronious, manipulated, fake, and Only created to make Some Deluded Mind believe in Miracles of a Supposed GOD.

The great reading is far superior to any book of science. It is a book that people who try to delete, change or abrogate end up making fools of themselves like sectarians and 19ers. So their attitude inadvertently ends up increasing the faith of those who have faith in it. No book of science can do that.

So whats the difference between them and you Ayman? They say the exact same thing about those miracles.
Here is the Main Questions/Points I would like to Bring up to you Ayman, if Possible.
*1. Muslims Believe the the Quran IS "Protected" by somekind of "Divine Code"/Seal/Lock/etc... And they use this to encourage others to join ISLAM because of this. Muslims Believe Allah (GOD ALMIGHTY) has protected the Quran from being Changed/distorted/deleted..etc...
SO MY QUESTION to you IS A) Do you believe that the Quran is Protected?
B) Can you "PROVE" that the Quran is Protected?

I believe the god himself protects the reminder in the great reading, not some code, not Hadiths, not some "companions" of the prophet, etc.

We are the proof. You and me, our contrasting attitude is the proof. But it is only proof if you are on the right side. Those who remember naturally know that the reminder has been preserved. For those who don't remember, this will be extremely difficult to understand.

1B- It would seem a little Odd to believe that the Quran IS protected and not being able to Prove so for the simple fact that many people have actually Created their own Qurans. They over the years, have Deleted/Distorted/Tampered/Un-locked/etc.... the Quran.
There are numerious different Qurans in the world are there not?
If a Guy Named Joe Wartime decided one day that He wanted to Take 13 vereses out of the Quran, Then Wrote his Own Vereses...Then took some lyrics from a couple Michael Jackson Records...and then put them into his Book and called it "The Holy Quran"....Then went to a forighn Country that never Heard of the Quran and They read it as such....."WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO HIM"?
Is he going to Burst into Fire? Is Lightning going to strike him? Is Allah Going to Stop him? (I dont know)...

The god will protect the great reading. If Joe Wartime went through this trouble then he will put things and take out things to serve his own purposes and in the process expose himself as a hypocrite with a disease in his heart. This is what sectarians do anyway everyday in their minds when they abrogate far more than 13 verses and insert lyrics from Bukhari. This is why the reminder is not preserved for those who don't remember the god. On the other hand, the god will remember those who remember him and he will "yusalli" on those who "yusalloo".

I believe it to be Mathamatical. Code 19 seems like the most Likley Canidate that was choses by God to be used.
Allah is the master of Creation, Mathamatics, and Science.
So far Code 19 has Given me an Answer as to "What and Where is the Seal/Protection/Code that was talked about in the Quran.
If you have a better Answer Please Share...I am Dying to know. Where this Seal/Protection is and how to varify it. D

I can only repeat what the god himself said "that he himself will protect the reminder".

On the other hand, any questions and answers about the count of 19 mean that I would have to ask "what did the god intend by this allegory/example?" Just by asking the question you have condemned yourself no matter what illusion of an answer "Code 19 had given you".

Got to go. More on the other replies later.

Peace,

Ayman

RA786

Peace RA786,

Has it really increased your faith? If so, why are you asking

Increased my faith as in giving another miracle to the list of miracles that the Quran has.
In my mind, I see it as an Increase in which its benifitial because Athists and Religious people Alike can prove that there is a book that whithstood the hands of time.
There are Many Books that claim to be "Protected". There are many Political Philosophies and Manifestos that have claimed to be superb and infalliable.
However ALL have failed, and every Athiest will Agree.

However, When the Quran is mentioned...that is the difference. It unlike other books and manifestos...actually gives Solutions for Humanity and is Infalliable.
It contains Scientific Miracles but also a Miracle in which it cannot be changed.

If you were to talk to an Athiest...and He says... "How Does a Book become infalliable?"
what would you reply? in all reality...answer this simple Question...HOW does a BOOK become UNCHANGABLE? I would reply by saying...it would have to become Mathamatical. Thats the Only way for a Book to be unchangeable. Right? or not Incorrect?
You can Change Words, Paragraphs, Society, Culture, Language, and even Root-Words overtime.. however the language of Math cannot be changed. Yes or no?

The protection is the god himself. So you are literally asking "where is the god?" This is the kind of question a rejecting aetheist would normally ask. Is this the kind of question that your "increase in faith" led you to?!

The god himself protects the reminder. But the reminder is only there for those who use their intellect to remember. As for those who forgot their own selves and are busy pursuing temptations there is no reminder to begin with to preserve or not preserve.

I am NOT asking Where is God like an Athiest. That is an incorrect way of thinking. The only people who say that are actually saying the same thing the jews said on the Mountain asking to See Allah. That is also incorect because The Athiests who Ask that are judging God on somekind of fallable Scale like they would a human. They are really reffereing to some kind of "God" in the sky with a beard and clouds..etc..
So No, I am NOT asking where is GOD...I asked...WHERE is the QURANIC PROTECTION.
Quote from Ayman "The god himself protects the reminder." I agree...that that is equal to say "The God Himself Created the Laws of Life, Physics, and mathamatics....The God Himself Protects the Earth from being to close to the Sun or Moon and The God Himself Creates a Protection (Code) in the Quran.
So you see....There is Really No Difference between the Two Statements. Whether Allah Himself Protects the Quran.... OR Allah Himself Created the Protection to Protect the Quran Thus is Still Protecting it... There is No difference at all. we are saying the same thing.
There is a relationship between the Creater (Allah) and the (Creation)...that He Protects (either through Mathamatics, or Other Means in which He Creates it.)

That is to say that When Allah HIMSELF Freeded the Children of Israel ....or Allah HIMSELF Created Moses for the Purpose to Free the Children of Isreal...There is No Difference. Allah Created Both the CHildren of Israel, Moses, the Freedom, and the Oppression, and the Reality in which they Exist.

Yes or No?

Ayman But the reminder is only there for those who use their intellect to remember.

3A) Where does it say in the Quran that The Quranic Protection is Under that Condition that it is Only for those who use their intellect?
3B) If it is Proven that the Quranic Protection IS in fact under that Condition (using intellect to Remember)... Does not Studying the Code 19 not Meet that Criteria you have presented?

I can use that to say this statement The Quranic Mathamatical Miracle is a Reminder that is Only There for those who use their Intellect to remember. I think it would still make sense even in that Context.

Here is what is Troubleing me with what you have said.

If There is a Person who Believes in the Code 19 (Such as Edip), and Does his Islamic Requirements...How has he then "Forgot" the reminder?
I see the Code 19 (If True) as a Blessing. What it means to me is that I now have Proof to show non-muslims that I have in my possession a Boog of Great Wisdom...that will change the Earth...and is Protected (By Allah) and that Protection is varifiable.

Let me give you an example of the god's protection. Sectarians, Khalifa and 19ers believed that the word "mecca" in 4824 refers to the city in Saudi Arabia named Mecca.

I am not well read or really understand this so I will have to study and research this aspect. I will take what you wrote and ponder over it. hmm

I believe the god himself protects the reminder in the great reading, not some code, not Hadiths, not some "companions" of the prophet, etc.

Let me Translate "I believe Allah Himself protects the reminder in the Quran, not some code, not Hadiths, not some companions...."
I too agree that Allah Himself Protects the "Quran"... (in the Quran). You have used the Words "reminder" and "great Reading" interchangable I assume.
Its a little confusing... It would be easier to simply say "Quran".

Again, GOD (ALLAH) protects the Quran (reminder/Mercy/Guidence/Book of Miracles-wisdom/Rules) In the Reminder (Reminder/Mercy/Guidence/Book/of Mircles-wisdom/Rules) So... we are in Agreeance?

Ayman From what you have Wrote...It seems you have put "Code" next to the words "Hadiths, and Companions" as things that you feel do NOT carry the Quranic Protection. HOWEVER, Unlike the other examples you have stated (hadiths,Companions) A "CODE" is not separate from the Quran. A "Code" is not Another Book or Religious Source other than the Quran. A "Code" is NOT a Talmud...or a Hadith...or an Article that was written in Cosmopolitan Magazine.

The Code in which We are Reffereing to is NOT a Separate Source from the Quran...But IS actually (Layed INSIDE the Quran).
Do you understand?

here Let me put it in other terms...

A Hadith Book is Not Connected to the Quran.
A Talmud Book is Not Connected to the Quran.
A Companion of the Prophet is not Connected to the Quran.
A Cosmopolitan Magazine is not Connected to the Quran.
(Meaning you can find them completely Separate from the Quran that is on your Book Shelf)...
BUT the CODE19 IS Connected to the Quran. Like a Two in One. Right?
Theres not a Separte Book called (Code 19) that is Used.... actually Only a QURAN is Used.

We are the proof. You and me, our contrasting attitude is the proof. But it is only proof if you are on the right side. Those who remember naturally know that the reminder has been preserved. For those who don't remember, this will be extremely difficult to understand.

Again I will have to Translate what you are saying so I can understand.

Those who remember naturally know that the QURAN has been preserved. For those who don't remember, this will be extremely difficult to understand.

Those Who remember Naturally know its Preserved? HUH? ??? o
You are Very right Ayman...that IS extremley difficult to understand.
Similar to talking to a christian who believes the Current Bible has been Preserved....and then saying its been because they "Naturally Know" that it is Preserved.
I mean...How does One "Naturally Know" and Naturally "Remember" that the Book is Preserved? that doesnt make any sense.

Heres a Question Ayman.

Edip yuksel... Why would Rashad Khalifah or any and All of the "Code 19ers" Lie?
If The Code 19ers Are Truley "Liers" and are just making up a lie about the Quran haveing a Mathamatical Code in it...
Why? What gain would they really obtain out of it?
It doesnt seem likley. Spening all of this time and energy lieing about something that they know is false.

See unlike Sunni's or Shia's...who have been indocrinated Since Birth for ceneturies and many including Iman's and Scholars may quite possibly really NOT KNOW...
"Code 19ers" are different. it is a new movment, and THEY KNOW.
They must See their ERRORS or See TRUTHS everyday that they Study it.

So, why would they Intentionally Create a Lie in the Islamic Religion that they KNOW is false and Know the Consequences of such actions?
Would someone who Believes in Allah Really Do that? especially knowing the consequences of fabricating lies?

either that Option is True, or in all reality they are really Athiests at heart...and If THAT's the Truth...Why would they waste there time here in the Islamic Religion?...as apposed to living like an Athiest free of All cares or worrys and live life enjoying the wonders that the dunya and shaytan have to offer?
That too doesnt seem likley.

I guess I doubt that Code 19ers are Lying. What Goal would they really Achive by doing this?
did they make Billions of Dollars or something? Do they get Material Weath from the Jinn? Do they get Control over peoples Souls?

Edip Yuksel! are you making Billions? laugh

Humm.... Rashad Khalifah.... I guess all He got out of this "Supposed Elaborate Math Scheme" was a little bit of Local recognition...and an assasination.
Not like the guy made Billions or anything. Most people never even heard of Rashad Khalifa or Edip or code 19.
(Sorry Edip, khalifa, and others...no offense or anything..Im just trying to illustrate that it would seem illogical to Lie about somthing that really didnt make anyone super famous.

So...It would seem MORE likley to me that its Not Something Monetary/Material to lie about...rather it is something True that One Man got Brutally Murdered for and is starting to raise some questions about. It would also seem that it is the most Logical Answer to the QURANIC PROTECTION/Preservation.

Why would an AL-Qaida Terrorist Kill Rashad Khalifa (if he was lying)? Tons of people could have been killed...but Specifically Khalifa was a Threat to the Current Islam.
WHY? What would this mean for AL-Qaida and Traditional Islam?

If Kahlifa was just some Crazy old guy who lies...why would he be such an Important Kill and Threat?
From what I've leaned...ONLY IMPORTANT People Get Killed. (in refference to threats).

Its rather odd that the Death of Rashad Khalifah in 1990 really started to shape how things are to be connected with The US. Islam. War. Spirituality. and the New world Order.

1990-Islamic Terrorists (alQaeda) Kill Rashad.
-from this point on Islamic "AlQaeda" attacks would be on the rise.
1993-World Trade Center Bombings
2001-World Trade Center attaks/911
hmm

unknownuser

Peace,

I see the Code 19 (If True) as a Blessing. What it means to me is that I now have Proof...

Please show proof using code to protect the two small chapters and also when they are switched...

Sura #108

1

2

3

Sura #110

1

2

3

RA786

Peace,

Please show proof using code to protect the two small chapters and also when they are switched...

Sura #108

1

2

3

Sura #110

1

2

3

I dont know how yet. (
I havent been able to go about the Code yet...
I have admited Before that I have a limited understanding, so that is only what I am speaking of (Limited understanding and Theory.)
I hope to one day learn how to utilize mathamatics and understand the Quran Code in its entierty.

I suppose you can ask an expert on this subject since I am not.
and as Quoted above IF Code 19 is True (which I believe to be true for now (time being) with my limited understanding)
Then I would FINANNLY have Proof. Untill then I dont really have Proof.
I hope to master the code one day Inshallah.

*I have Read Both Sides from Edip and Ayman... and others.
I feel I am more believeing in there Being a Code rather then there Not being a code.
However I cannot Prove its Existsnace (YET) nor can I Disprove its existance (Yet).

I cannot Prove Allah's Existance either. or the Existance of Angles, jinn, or spiritual phinominon.
Just my Theory and Belief.

ayman

Peace RA786,

Increased my faith as in giving another miracle to the list of miracles that the Quran has.
In my mind, I see it as an Increase in which its benifitial because Athists and Religious people Alike can prove that there is a book that whithstood the hands of time.
There are Many Books that claim to be "Protected". There are many Political Philosophies and Manifestos that have claimed to be superb and infalliable.
However ALL have failed, and every Athiest will Agree.
However, When the Quran is mentioned...that is the difference. It unlike other books and manifestos...actually gives Solutions for Humanity and is Infalliable.
It contains Scientific Miracles but also a Miracle in which it cannot be changed.

Nope. The great reading doesn't have miracles (Arabic "mu3jizat&quot.

If you were to talk to an Athiest...and He says... "How Does a Book become infalliable?"
what would you reply? in all reality...answer this simple Question...HOW does a BOOK become UNCHANGABLE? I would reply by saying...it would have to become Mathamatical. Thats the Only way for a Book to be unchangeable. Right? or not Incorrect?
You can Change Words, Paragraphs, Society, Culture, Language, and even Root-Words overtime.. however the language of Math cannot be changed. Yes or no?

Math changes all the time. Also, Code 19 is numerology and not math (even Edip admitted that it is numerology). Do you even know what numerology is?

I am NOT asking Where is God like an Athiest. That is an incorrect way of thinking. The only people who say that are actually saying the same thing the jews said on the Mountain asking to See Allah. That is also incorect because The Athiests who Ask that are judging God on somekind of fallable Scale like they would a human. They are really reffereing to some kind of "God" in the sky with a beard and clouds..etc..
So No, I am NOT asking where is GOD...I asked...WHERE is the QURANIC PROTECTION.

Same thing. If you believe that the god protected the reminder then the fact that it reminds you should have been enough.

Numerology is irrelevant. People can produce all sorts of impressive numerology using 19 or any prime number that doesn't remind anyone of any truth. The proof is in the pudding. Why didn't Khalifa's numerology remind him to not mindlessly stone some "devil pillars"? Why did it not remind him not to falsify every verse he translated that had to do with his messengership or Code 19? Why did it not remind him to not focus on superficial looks? Why did it not remind him of sharing the whole truth about both successes and failures and not hide his failed trials like a cowardly thief?

Quote from Ayman "The god himself protects the reminder." I agree...that that is equal to say "The God Himself Created the Laws of Life, Physics, and mathamatics....The God Himself Protects the Earth from being to close to the Sun or Moon and The God Himself Creates a Protection (Code) in the Quran.
So you see....There is Really No Difference between the Two Statements. Whether Allah Himself Protects the Quran.... OR Allah Himself Created the Protection to Protect the Quran Thus is Still Protecting it... There is No difference at all. we are saying the same thing.
There is a relationship between the Creater (Allah) and the (Creation)...that He Protects (either through Mathamatics, or Other Means in which He Creates it.)

But that is exactly what people who are ignorant about the laws of life, physics and mathematics say. Those who have knowledge know that what we call the laws of life and physics are nothing but manmade approximation of the god's creation. It will never fully represent the god's creation. For example, 9.8 m/sec^2 is an approximate law for gravity on earth. It is not gravity. In fact, we don't really fully understand what gravity is but we can approximate it and as we progress our understanding will improve but it will never be perfect. Mathematics are just a convenient human tool for human approximation. Numerology is not even mathematics. It is nothing but useless playing with numbers. This is why no one has ever discovered anything new or improved their understanding of the great reading as a result of Code 19. It can only be used to justify preconceptions.

That is to say that When Allah HIMSELF Freeded the Children of Israel ....or Allah HIMSELF Created Moses for the Purpose to Free the Children of Isreal...There is No Difference. Allah Created Both the CHildren of Israel, Moses, the Freedom, and the Oppression, and the Reality in which they Exist.
Yes or No?

The god doesn't create falsehood. All falsehoods, whether Hadiths, Code 19, the Bible Code, etc. comes from our imagination.

3A) Where does it say in the Quran that The Quranic Protection is Under that Condition that it is Only for those who use their intellect?

The god constantly tells us in the great reading that its signs are for those who use their minds/intellect. I am surprised that you don't know this. As for protection, since it is "the reminder" that is protected then only those who remember will benefit and see this protection. If you don't remember then the protection is irrelevant for you as if it didn't exist and you will delete passages or abrogate them or add your own Hadiths etc...

3B) If it is Proven that the Quranic Protection IS in fact under that Condition (using intellect to Remember)... Does not Studying the Code 19 not Meet that Criteria you have presented?

No because Code 19 is numerology and all numerology is falsehood based on sharing successful trials and hiding failed trials. If the Bible Code hunters shared with its believers the thousands of trials where they didn't get a hit then no one would believe in the Bible Code. The same goes for Code 19.

I can use that to say this statement The Quranic Mathamatical Miracle is a Reminder that is Only There for those who use their Intellect to remember. I think it would still make sense even in that Context.

But they don't remember. They keep hiding the truth, stoning some devil pillars, etc. just like sectarians's Hadith don't remind them.

Here is what is Troubleing me with what you have said.
If There is a Person who Believes in the Code 19 (Such as Edip), and Does his Islamic Requirements...How has he then "Forgot" the reminder?
I see the Code 19 (If True) as a Blessing. What it means to me is that I now have Proof to show non-muslims that I have in my possession a Boog of Great Wisdom...that will change the Earth...and is Protected (By Allah) and that Protection is varifiable.

Edip has indeed forgot the reminder about testifying the truth, the whole truth, as you can see here

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597165.msg239877#msg239877

Ask Edip why neither he nor any Code 19 hunter will ever answer.

I am not well read or really understand this so I will have to study and research this aspect. I will take what you wrote and ponder over it. hmm

Perhaps if you spent more time reading and less time on counting then it would be more beneficial. After all, it is called the great reading and not the great counting.

Let me Translate "I believe Allah Himself protects the reminder in the Quran, not some code, not Hadiths, not some companions...."
I too agree that Allah Himself Protects the "Quran"... (in the Quran). You have used the Words "reminder" and "great Reading" interchangable I assume.
Its a little confusing... It would be easier to simply say "Quran".
Again, GOD (ALLAH) protects the Quran (reminder/Mercy/Guidence/Book of Miracles-wisdom/Rules) In the Reminder (Reminder/Mercy/Guidence/Book/of Mircles-wisdom/Rules) So... we are in Agreeance?

They are not exactly interchangeable. The reminder is the result of the reading. It is like when you read and study for an exam and then you remember and do well. So they are related but not exactly alike. Some people can read but the god has blocked them from understanding and thus remembering.

Ayman From what you have Wrote...It seems you have put "Code" next to the words "Hadiths, and Companions" as things that you feel do NOT carry the Quranic Protection. HOWEVER, Unlike the other examples you have stated (hadiths,Companions) A "CODE" is not separate from the Quran. A "Code" is not Another Book or Religious Source other than the Quran. A "Code" is NOT a Talmud...or a Hadith...or an Article that was written in Cosmopolitan Magazine.
The Code in which We are Reffereing to is NOT a Separate Source from the Quran...But IS actually (Layed INSIDE the Quran).
Do you understand?

It is 100% separate from the great reading. It is 100% dependent on things that are completely separate from the great reading

What methods of counting to use.
What data sets to apply the methods to.
What results to share.
What results to hide.

If you change the method, the "code" disappears into thin air. Apply the same method to a different dataset and the "code" also dissapears. Also, if you decide to share all results and not just the successful ones then the "code" dissappears into thin air. This is indisputable.

here Let me put it in other terms...
A Hadith Book is Not Connected to the Quran.
A Talmud Book is Not Connected to the Quran.
A Companion of the Prophet is not Connected to the Quran.
A Cosmopolitan Magazine is not Connected to the Quran.
(Meaning you can find them completely Separate from the Quran that is on your Book Shelf)...
BUT the CODE19 IS Connected to the Quran. Like a Two in One. Right?
Theres not a Separte Book called (Code 19) that is Used.... actually Only a QURAN is Used.
Again I will have to Translate what you are saying so I can understand.

Similarly, the letter Alif having a GV of 1 is not connected to the great reading and none of the many numbers in the great reading is represented by its GV. It can be considered just like a separate Hadith that interprets the great reading in a certain way.

Similarly, adding letters is not connected to the great reading. There is not a single verse in the great reading that tells us "and the number of letters in this verse is x". It can similarly be considered just like a separate Hadith that interprets the great reading in a certain way.

You can apply this to every single method that Code 19 numerologists use. All those methods are not connected to the great reading and are 100% manmade. Change the method and the code vanishes.

This is why the only thing consistent about Code 19 is that the same method is NEVER used twice. Do you think that the Code hunters didn't try to consistently use methods? Nope they tried but when they didn't consistently get 19 divisibles they simply hid them under the rug and didn't tell you. Every change in method is a result of failed trials.

Those Who remember Naturally know its Preserved? HUH? ??? o
You are Very right Ayman...that IS extremley difficult to understand.

How is it difficult? If you remember the truth then the reminder is indeed preserved. As I said, the truth is in the pudding. As for those who don't try to remember then it doesn't matter anyway whether the reminder is preserved or not.

Similar to talking to a christian who believes the Current Bible has been Preserved....and then saying its been because they "Naturally Know" that it is Preserved.
I mean...How does One "Naturally Know" and Naturally "Remember" that the Book is Preserved? that doesnt make any sense.

It makes sense if you remember the truth then the reminder is preserved.

Heres a Question Ayman.
Edip yuksel... Why would Rashad Khalifah or any and All of the "Code 19ers" Lie?

Why did Hadith fabricators lie?

Why do the Bible Code hunters lie?

If The Code 19ers Are Truley "Liers" and are just making up a lie about the Quran haveing a Mathamatical Code in it...
Why? What gain would they really obtain out of it?
It doesnt seem likley. Spening all of this time and energy lieing about something that they know is false.

Bible Code hunters spend just as much time and energy on something that they know is false. They also KNOW the thousands of failed trials that they are hiding just as much as Khalifa knew and Edip now knows.

See unlike Sunni's or Shia's...who have been indocrinated Since Birth for ceneturies and many including Iman's and Scholars may quite possibly really NOT KNOW...
"Code 19ers" are different. it is a new movment, and THEY KNOW.
They must See their ERRORS or See TRUTHS everyday that they Study it.

Do they see their errors? If so, why do they never tell us about their failed trials? Do you think that Khalifa NEVER had a failed trial? No reasonable person would say yes. If so, why do you think he never told us about those failed trials and only advertized the successful trials while sprinkling them with fancy words like "precise", "remarkable", etc. While he never used such words with his failed trials or even shared them without any comments.

So, why would they Intentionally Create a Lie in the Islamic Religion that they KNOW is false and Know the Consequences of such actions?
Would someone who Believes in Allah Really Do that? especially knowing the consequences of fabricating lies?
either that Option is True, or in all reality they are really Athiests at heart...and If THAT's the Truth...Why would they waste there time here in the Islamic Religion?...as apposed to living like an Athiest free of All cares or worrys and live life enjoying the wonders that the dunya and shaytan have to offer?
That too doesnt seem likley.

Same thing can be said about the Bible Code hunters and Hadith fabricators. They all think that they are reformers but they are in reality corrupters.

I guess I doubt that Code 19ers are Lying. What Goal would they really Achive by doing this?
did they make Billions of Dollars or something? Do they get Material Weath from the Jinn? Do they get Control over peoples Souls?
Edip Yuksel! are you making Billions? laugh

The Bible Code liars also didn?t make Billions.

Humm.... Rashad Khalifah.... I guess all He got out of this "Supposed Elaborate Math Scheme" was a little bit of Local recognition...and an assasination.
Not like the guy made Billions or anything. Most people never even heard of Rashad Khalifa or Edip or code 19.
(Sorry Edip, khalifa, and others...no offense or anything..Im just trying to illustrate that it would seem illogical to Lie about somthing that really didnt make anyone super famous.
So...It would seem MORE likley to me that its Not Something Monetary/Material to lie about...rather it is something True that One Man got Brutally Murdered for and is starting to raise some questions about. It would also seem that it is the most Logical Answer to the QURANIC PROTECTION/Preservation.

So if one of the Bible Code hunters gets murdered then according to your logic the Bible Code is correct and we should all believe that the Bible predicted the future and all sorts of nonsense!

Why would an AL-Qaida Terrorist Kill Rashad Khalifa (if he was lying)? Tons of people could have been killed...but Specifically Khalifa was a Threat to the Current Islam.
WHY? What would this mean for AL-Qaida and Traditional Islam?
If Kahlifa was just some Crazy old guy who lies...why would he be such an Important Kill and Threat?
From what I've leaned...ONLY IMPORTANT People Get Killed. (in refference to threats).
Its rather odd that the Death of Rashad Khalifah in 1990 really started to shape how things are to be connected with The US. Islam. War. Spirituality. and the New world Order.
1990-Islamic Terrorists (alQaeda) Kill Rashad.
-from this point on Islamic "AlQaeda" attacks would be on the rise.
1993-World Trade Center Bombings
2001-World Trade Center attaks/911
hmm

There is no logic because terrorists are idiots. So don?t base your belief in something on what some idiots decided to do or not to do.

Now let me close with answering your last remaining points

Is Miracle = to Fitna?

No.

Miracle = ?mu?jiza?.
Temptation = ?fitna?.

P.S... Nobody has yet answered if the Quran follows the same Numerology type of System that the Torah has. (as posted in the video).
and I hvent found any opinions.

So you admit that Code 19 is numerology and yet you continue to believe in it!

Hebrew numerals were invented in the 1st century BCE and Square Hebrew and its GVs that we are all familiar with were not standardized until the 2nd Century CE. Since the Torah was revealed in an earlier Millennium, it is a physical impossibility for the Torah to really have any such ?code?.

The same goes for the great reading. The earliest examples of Arabic GVs date to the 10th century CE, long after the revelation of the great reading. If you examine the Arabic GVs closely, you will see that the Arabic GVs are aligned with the Hebrew GVs but letters that don?t have an equivalent in the Hebrew alphabet are relegated to the end of the GVs (Arabic has 28 letters to Hebrew?s 22). This fact points to an artificial phonetic alignment with Hebrew long after the revelation of the great reading after Arabic became the religious lingua franca.

I dont know how yet. (
I havent been able to go about the Code yet...
I have admited Before that I have a limited understanding, so that is only what I am speaking of (Limited understanding and Theory.)
I hope to one day learn how to utilize mathamatics and understand the Quran Code in its entierty.
I suppose you can ask an expert on this subject since I am not.
and as Quoted above IF Code 19 is True (which I believe to be true for now (time being) with my limited understanding)
Then I would FINANNLY have Proof. Untill then I dont really have Proof.
I hope to master the code one day Inshallah.
*I have Read Both Sides from Edip and Ayman... and others.
I feel I am more believeing in there Being a Code rather then there Not being a code.
However I cannot Prove its Existsnace (YET) nor can I Disprove its existance (Yet).

Ignorance is what Code 19 fraudsters strive on. So be careful. The Code is not rocket science. It is random trial and error while sharing the successful trials and hiding the failed ones. You can easily make your own code by trying random calculations on the great reading. On average 1 out of every 19 attempts will be successful in getting a 19 divisible. If you share only the successful trials then you will create your own ?miracle?. If you are an honest person and you share both successful and failed trials equally then everyone will see that there is no ?miracle?. Try it.

I cannot Prove Allah's Existance either. or the Existance of Angles, jinn, or spiritual phinominon.
Just my Theory and Belief.

Just look inside you and around you and you will see the proof. As for ?jinn?, we are told not to believe in them.

I don?t want to waste any more time on this discussion. Unless Edip gets a sudden outbreak of honesty and decides to come clean and share Khalifa?s failed trials of Appendix 24 then there is really nothing more to say since his silence on this issue speaks volumes to those who use their intellect. As for those who don?t, no one can help them anyway.

Peace,

Ayman

Mazhar

Increased my faith as in giving another miracle to the list of miracles that the Quran has.

Which Arabic word is used to describe something as "miracle" in the Qur'aan, which increases faith, pl quote reference.

hope4

I dont know how yet. (
I havent been able to go about the Code yet...

1736 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the
hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.

david_rs_aitken

Peace,

This is what Hebrew used to look like
http//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Silwan-inscr.jpg

The common "square" Hebrew alphabet of today emerged later than the Torah. It's value system is a ripoff of the Greek gematrical/geometical system of exalting idols using numbers. The Hebrew gematria goes A B G D H. Look at how D and H are related in terms of shape

http//img169.imageshack.us/img169/6268/abgdh.png

This is a logical order for Hebrew. There is a logical order for Arabic, too. Any beginner knows that we have BA TA and THAA together because they're so similar in shape - they only vary by dots

When people wanted to start experimenting with Arabic numerology (i.e., the junk science of playing with numbers), they superimposed Arabic over Hebrew, following the Hebrew order which is illogical for Arabic. Since Hebrew only has 22 letters, Arabic has six left over.

What amazes me is that you can look at Khalifa and his collaborators using 19 to PROVE that "the Arabs" (men, women, children - who cares, right?) would be wiped out by the god (on May 19th 1990) using 19-based numerology. They proved it. Obviously, they proved nothing. Don't you see how playing around with numbers can yield any desired result? That's how counting 19 is a fitnah/temptation for those who do not appreciate the god and his message.

Peace,

-David

RA786

1736 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the
hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.

I knew someone was going to say that....lol D

I am not "Upholding"...Per se...
I believe that the Math Code is so far the most Logical reason for the Quran's Preservence.
I have admitted that I so far dont completely understand it because I have a problem with Mathamatics (
But hope to One day Prove it Right...Or Honestly come out and say that I have proved it wrong.

If I am able to Prove that Code 19 is Wrong...then I will 100% Agree with Ayman,
However for the time being...I feel it is Correct based off of what I understand so far (in theory).

(when I say I am bad in math, I mean...I have the mathamatical education of or lower than a middle school student. however reading/comprehention/politics/etc...all at College Level) Dont make fun of me...

Thanks David For sharing that, Ill have to look into it.
Like I said...When I am able to FULLY do and understand this Code...I will admit whether it is TRUE or FALSE because I cannot Lie as a Muslim.
I have to answer to Allah SWT...and besides...it would be so incredibly stupid to Lie about something in regards to the Book of Allah.
I wouldnt want to be tormented in hell because of lying.

seattletruth

Humm.... Rashad Khalifah.... I guess all He got out of this "Supposed Elaborate Math Scheme" was a little bit of Local recognition...and an assasination.
Not like the guy made Billions or anything. Most people never even heard of Rashad Khalifa or Edip or code 19.
(Sorry Edip, khalifa, and others...no offense or anything..Im just trying to illustrate that it would seem illogical to Lie about somthing that really didnt make anyone super famous.

So...It would seem MORE likley to me that its Not Something Monetary/Material to lie about...rather it is something True that One Man got Brutally Murdered for and is starting to raise some questions about. It would also seem that it is the most Logical Answer to the QURANIC PROTECTION/Preservation.

Why would an AL-Qaida Terrorist Kill Rashad Khalifa (if he was lying)? Tons of people could have been killed...but Specifically Khalifa was a Threat to the Current Islam.
WHY? What would this mean for AL-Qaida and Traditional Islam?

If Kahlifa was just some Crazy old guy who lies...why would he be such an Important Kill and Threat?
From what I've leaned...ONLY IMPORTANT People Get Killed. (in refference to threats).

Its rather odd that the Death of Rashad Khalifah in 1990 really started to shape how things are to be connected with The US. Islam. War. Spirituality. and the New world Order.

1990-Islamic Terrorists (alQaeda) Kill Rashad.
-from this point on Islamic "AlQaeda" attacks would be on the rise.
1993-World Trade Center Bombings
2001-World Trade Center attaks/911
hmm

Salaam, RA786.

First, it's important to realize that the Fatwa was issued against Rashad because of his promotion over code 19. Traditional scholars actually supported code 19 in the early stages, and the largest Sunni university in Egypt still supports it today http//www.almasry-alyoum.com/printerfriendly.aspx?ArticleID=61549 (run it through Google translate if you have to).

The fatwa was issued for primarily one reason

He claimed that 2 verses from the Quran were false.

It might have been a minor secondary reason that he claimed to be a messenger of God, however, if you look at the historical context, there have been countless people who claimed to be messengers of God, and lots of them weren't killed. For instance, Mrz Ghulm Amad, the founder of the Ahmadiyya faith which has millions of followers worldwide. According to the wiki ( http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirza_Ghulam_Ahmad ), he died at the age of 72 from "dysentery and excessive weakness". The founders of the Bahai'i faith were killed not because they claimed to be messengers / prophets, but also claimed to be the physical manifestations of God.

But I digress, its an established fact that the reason the fatwa was issued was not because of code 19 at all, but because Rashad had claimed that 2 verses in the Quran were made by human.

However, when you claim that Rashad "wasn't just some old crazy guy who lies", I would have to say that there is unquestionable proof that shows that he indeed WAS a crazy liar. Check out my thread with a video here ( http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600155.0 ) which proves that Rashad actually claimed that he received DIVINE SCRIPTURE from God; he claimed that all 3 of his translations were actually written by God himself, and were infallible. He claimed that he received new scripture, while somehow claiming that he was not a nabi / prophet, and only a rasul / messenger, and also claiming that Muhammad was undeniably the last prophet. It makes no sense, but just watch the video for yourself, read the thread for yourself, and you will see that Rashad Khalifa was INDEED a crazy old LIAR. It's undeniable.

My last comment I have on your post is that it is indeed fishy that a group with links to al Qaeda was used for the murder. However, it wasn't al Qaeda itself, it was the separate organization Jamaat al Fuqra. Jamaat al Fuqra is fishy in itself, in that it was also backed by CIA, because they claim to have 45 paramilitary organizations IN USA AND CANADA, yet the are not on any "terrorist watch list".

However, just because al Qaeda and Jamaat al Fuqra were funded, founded, trained, and protected by CIA does not mean that they don't carry out their own initiatives. I agree with you in that 9/11 was an inside job, not done by al Qaeda at all, but it seems as though the assassination of Rashad was carried out by a rogue individual who firmly believed the Quran should not be corrupted, not a CIA agent.

It's not really right to say it was done by al Qaeda, for al Qaeda itself is just an organization of mujaheddin around the world... Any and all terrorists can be called "al Qaeda", by their broad definition.