Does Qur'an say husbands can HIT their wives?
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For those who deny that verse 4.34 means a man can "Hit" his wife. Here are some verses from the Qur'an where the verb daraba means "Hit". I want you to notice how it takes it's verb directly and is not qualified by any preposition or word like Similitude etc...
In each case it means "Hit"
"Hit them"
(4.34)
"They hit their faces and their backs"
(8.50)
"Hit the necks" (chop their heads off)
(47.4)
"Hit it"
(2.73)
Now in the following verses the verb daraba doesn't mean Hit - at least not in a literal sense - but notice that it - and/or it's object - are qualified by a preposition and/or a word like Similitude in the Earth...
Allah strikes a parable
(1424)
"Striking in the Earth" (i.e to go forth in the land)
(2273)
We strike away the reminder from you. (We turn it away)
(43.5)
"They do not strike/set it forth to you save by way of disputation"
(435
If "Hit them" meant "Leave them alone/Go away from them" it would have to have a preposition like (From/Away)
So it would have to be = And strike away from them
If it meant "Strike up a similitude for them" it would have to have a preposition like (to/for) and a qualifying word like "Parable"
So it would have to be something like = And strike up for them a parable/similitude
If it meant "and go forth" it would have to have a preposition like and a qualifying word like "Earth"
So it would have to be something like = And go forth in the land
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Peace,
Every year same rant and never include this verse; let's hit you (idriboohu) with another non literal example
4358
And they said "Are our gods better or He?"
They did not daraboohu (hit you) except arguing, but they are a people disputing.waidriboohunna refers back to example ?set forth? or given prior?
??and abandon them (waohjuroohunna) in the place of lying down?? -
Peace,
Every year same rant and never include this verse; let's hit you (idriboohu) with another non literal example
4358
And they said "Are our gods better or He?"
They did not daraboohu (hit you) except arguing, but they are a people disputing.waidriboohunna refers back to example ?set forth? or given prior?
??and abandon them (waohjuroohunna) in the place of lying down??Thank you for giving me another example proving what I said above - if you understood what I said then you would have realised it.
The issue is NOT whether daraba can mean other things. It is well known that it does. In fact I gave some examples. What I said was that it needs to be qualified by a preposition and/or another word to make it mean something else. You just confirmed what I said above.
The verse you quoted has both a preposition and a qualifying word to make Daraba mean something other than "Hit" in a literal sense.
It means "They do not strike/set it forth to you save by way of disputation"
The word Daraba is qualified by laka and Jadalan
But verse 3.34 has no qualification of any sort.
I will add that one to my list - cheers!
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Added it - cheers mate - can you find me some please ;D
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Please read this article in its entirety http//www.quran434.com/test.htm
Please, no dodging like in the past. If you are truly interested in discussing the issue and meting out the truth, read the article and come back to discuss. Peace.
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Please read this article in its entirety http//www.quran434.com/test.htm
Please, no dodging like in the past. If you are truly interested in discussing the issue and meting out the truth, read the article and come back to discuss. Peace.
Read it thanks.
Doesn't change what I said above.
You need to qualify the verb Daraba with a preposition and/or a word/caluse/adverb etc... for it to have a non-literal meaning.
Verse 3.34 is totally unqualified in any way.
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Read it thanks.
Doesn't change what I said above.
You need to qualify the verb Daraba with a preposition and/or a word/caluse/adverb etc... for it to have a non-literal meaning.
Verse 3.34 is totally unqualified in any way.the lack of understanding the meanings of arabic makes people under confusion About what you stated that Qur'an has oredered man to hit woman is entirely false because you take the verb " ?? " while you forgot the first problem is " " .
first of all God in this verse talked about the discordant wives if the man fear the discordant woman which is already his wife, he must first advice her, if she doesn't listen to the advice then there is another way is " " which means abandon sleeping with the discordant wife for a while until she knows her priority for understanding the first way which was the advice , if she didn't respond to the both of the terms then man should hit the woman but not as you think hit here is not literally or hit in all words, because in this verse means that man should talks with his wife in intensity a strong intensity. If it means hit as you said the verb will not come frequent after a " " and if it was the case as you stated it'll be in the first and independant from the issues.So to conclude ?? means talk with them"wives" with a strong intensity to say.
Peace.
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the lack of understanding the meanings of arabic makes people under confusion
I understand Arabic very well - and I'm not in any confusion - thank you.
About what you stated that Qur'an has oredered man to hit woman is entirely false because you take the verb " ?? " while you forgot the first problem is " " .
first of all God in this verse talked about the discordant wives if the man fear the discordant woman which is already his wife, he must first advice her, if she doesn't listen to the advice then there is another way is " " which means abandon sleeping with the discordant wife for a while until she knows her priority for understanding the first way which was the advice , if she didn't respond to the both of the terms then man should hit the woman but not as you think hit here is not literally or hit in all words, because in this verse means that man should talks with his wife in intensity a strong intensity. If it means hit as you said the verb will not come frequent after a " " and if it was the case as you stated it'll be in the first and independant from the issues.So to conclude ?? means talk with them"wives" with a strong intensity to say.
Peace.
Please show me where the verb daraba has ever been used to mean "to talk with someone with a strong intensity"?
And again - I repeat - for daraba to have a non-literal meaning it must be qualified in some way.
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peace cosmicdancer,
Glad you decided to respond. Let us review your claim of
You need to qualify the verb Daraba with a preposition and/or a word/caluse/adverb etc... for it to have a non-literal meaning.
A few questions for you...
- You give the verse references of 850, 474 and 273 to demonstrate your point, but if you read the article, as you said you did, then you will know the evidence is significantly AGAINST the translations you provided. If you disagree, then a refutation of the evidence presented in the article for these verses should be easy. Please comment.
Also see 812 for a comparison.
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Who decides which qualifying word determines if it is non-literal? Please give us your criteria.
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What about 1317, 2077 (I assume you will say "lahum" is the qualifier here).
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Why do you translate it as "strike away" in 435? Is it because you are forced to, otherwise it sounds odd?
It means "They do not strike/set it forth to you save by way of disputation"
Out of curiosity, how do you determine what the "hu" refers back to, i.e. Jesus or mathal?
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- You give the verse references of 850, 474 and 273 to demonstrate your point, but if you read the article, as you said you did, then you will know the evidence is significantly AGAINST the translations you provided. If you disagree, then a refutation of the evidence presented in the article for these verses should be easy. Please comment.
I skim read it as it is far too long. Please post the verses and translations you want me to comment on - I'm sorry I don't have time to wade through huge walls of text.
- Who decides which qualifying word determines if it is non-literal? Please give us your criteria
Simple really. If there is no qualifying preposition and or word - then there is no reason to take it non-literally.
How do you decide that daraba in 3.34 is to be taken non-literally? What is the meaning you give to it - is it avoid them? Or strike similitude for them? Or leave them? Or talk to them intensely? or what?
- What about 1317, 2077 (I assume you will say "lahum" is the qualifier here).
Please post the verses and I'll comment - I'm sorry I am not looking up stuff.
- Why do you translate it as "strike away" in 435? Is it because you are forced to, otherwise it sounds odd?
Nope - just to show it's relation to hit/strike.
Out of curiosity, how do you determine what the "hu" refers back to, i.e. Jesus or mathal?
is Jesus and refers to the mathal - this is from Tafseer Jalalayn
" " " " " " " "
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I understand Arabic very well - and I'm not in any confusion - thank you.
Daniel J. Boorstin said
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge.Please show me where the verb daraba has ever been used to mean "to talk with someone with a strong intensity"?
well, I've shown you the situation of the verb daraba in the verse , I'm not going to bring to you any other example to make you understand because I've explained it or you want just to make your point .
this is another use of daraba in the arbic language "modaraba" a provenience from the verb daraba and it means gambling. and I can use it in a sentence in arabic and it'll be like hitting or in fact it'll be hitting but not literally because it'll means that those people talk to each other with a strong intensity . as we know that before the "Modaraba" which it comes from the verb daraba were before when people talk with strong intensity in gambling like someone fight with someone by words.
And again - I repeat - for daraba to have a non-literal meaning it must be qualified in some way.
it must be qualified for you in some way .
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well, I've shown you the situation of the verb daraba in the verse , I'm not going to bring to you any other example to make you understand because I've explained it or you want just to make your point .
I'll take that as a no then?
So what makes you say it means talk to them intensely if you have no evidence that supports that?
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I'll take that as a no then?
So what makes you say it means talk to them intensely if you have no evidence that supports that?
what ?>>> read please my post . I've said I'm not going to give you any example but I did give you an example .
here what I said this is another use of daraba in the arbic language "modaraba" a provenience from the verb daraba and it means gambling. and I can use it in a sentence in arabic and it'll be like hitting or in fact it'll be hitting but not literally because it'll means that those people talk to each other with a strong intensity . as we know that before the "Modaraba" which it comes from the verb daraba were before when people talk with strong intensity in gambling like someone fight with someone by words.
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what ?>>> read please my post . I've said I'm not going to give you any example but I did give you an example .
here what I said this is another use of daraba in the arbic language "modaraba" a provenience from the verb daraba and it means gambling. and I can use it in a sentence in arabic and it'll be like hitting or in fact it'll be hitting but not literally because it'll means that those people talk to each other with a strong intensity . as we know that before the "Modaraba" which it comes from the verb daraba were before when people talk with strong intensity in gambling like someone fight with someone by words.
That example is irrelevant. The Qur'an didn't say modaraba - that comes from a different form and different forms can have very different meanings.
We are discussing daraba - you need to show me when daraba has ever been used to mean "Talk to someone intensely".
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Let's assume for arguments sake that this verse doesn't mean hit them and the Qur'an was in fact stopping this evil practice.
Don't you think it was a big mistake to use a word that 99.9% of Muslims for 1400 years would (quite understandably) think means "Hit" - and they still do today.
Since this is God's "Clear Book" and "Guidance" for mankind - it has to be said God failed miserably in this bit, didn't he. No?
I mean why didn't he use "Speak" or any number of other words. Surely he could have seen the terrible mistake Muslims would make for hundreds of years - and up till today - thinking that God says it's OK to hit their wives.
Or doesn't he care?
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God doesn't want us to hit our wives so he uses a word that means "hit".
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Let's assume for arguments sake that this verse doesn't mean hit them and the Qur'an was in fact stopping this evil practice.
Don't you think it was a big mistake to use a word that 99.9% of Muslims for 1400 years would (quite understandably) think means "Hit" - and they still do today.
Since this is God's "Clear Book" and "Guidance" for mankind - it has to be said God failed miserably in this bit, didn't he. No?
I mean why didn't he use "Speak" or any number of other words. Surely he could have seen the terrible mistake Muslims would make for hundreds of years - and up till today - thinking that God says it's OK to hit their wives.
Or doesn't he care?
Well said!
from deep inside, we feel the same way, thats the main reason to rationalise that verse. Perhaps some day we'll be able to think independently and criticise quran where we feel its wrong. I also believe it is impossible to agree with quran on everything unless you are a blind follower.
Peace.
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Well said!
from deep inside, we feel the same way, thats the main reason to rationalise that verse. Perhaps some day we'll be able to think independently and criticise quran where we feel its wrong. I also believe it is impossible to agree with quran on everything unless you are a blind follower.
Peace.
Wow what a re entry welcom back handshake D
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Well said!
from deep inside, we feel the same way, thats the main reason to rationalise that verse. Perhaps some day we'll be able to think independently and criticise quran where we feel its wrong. I also believe it is impossible to agree with quran on everything unless you are a blind follower.
Peace.
Well in one way I really want to say good luck to you guys as I would dearly love to see Muslims move away from the harsh and violent beliefs many hold.
But for me it just shows that the Qur'an is not from God - if there is a God, which I'm doubtful about.
Anyhoooo.... I think I'll be heading back to the Ex-Muslim forum I usually hang out on
http//www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?action=forum
I may pop in again later.
Peace )
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Greetings, before you split and since you asked...
Thank you for giving me another example proving what I said above - if you understood what I said then you would have realised it.
The issue is NOT whether daraba can mean other things. It is well known that it does. In fact I gave some examples. What I said was that it needs to be qualified by a preposition and/or another word to make it mean something else. You just confirmed what I said above.
The verse you quoted has both a preposition and a qualifying word to make Daraba mean something other than "Hit" in a literal sense.
It means "They do not strike/set it forth to you save by way of disputation"
The word Daraba is qualified by laka and Jadalan
God doesn't want us to hit our wives so he uses a word that means "hit".
M arabhu Laka 'Ill Jadalan Bal Hum Qawmun Khaimna
4358 they beat/hit you to/for you only arguingCan?t go by how it comes out in English or Arabic grammars invented hundreds of years later nor do we need to show/beat you with an exact example of another non literal beating in Qur?an. Not a step by step as some infer and no problem saying it in reverse either; same thing?
Wa Aribhunna Wa Ahjurhunna F Al-Maji`i
?and show them and abandon them in the place of lying down?Btw, translate the last part of the verse...
??abandon them in the place of lying down and show them (thus)"...
Fa'in 'Aanakum Fal TabghAlayhinna Sablan 'Inna Allha Kna `Alyan Kabran
ELSE IF they abide by you,
ELSE do not Tabgh on them
-- a way that God is high, mighty/great.You can cross-reference meaning here (how most appropriate verse too)...
399 Qul Y 'Ahla Al-Kitbi Lima Tauddna
An Sabli Allhi Man 'mana TabghnahIwajan Wa 'Antum Shuhad'u Wa M Allhu BighfilinAmm TamalnaSay "You The Book's people, why do you obstruct from God's path who believed, you wish/desire it crookedness, and you are witnessing, and God is not with ignoring what you are doing." (See also 786)
