Does Qur'an say husbands can HIT their wives?
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Let's assume for arguments sake that this verse doesn't mean hit them and the Qur'an was in fact stopping this evil practice.
Don't you think it was a big mistake to use a word that 99.9% of Muslims for 1400 years would (quite understandably) think means "Hit" - and they still do today.
Since this is God's "Clear Book" and "Guidance" for mankind - it has to be said God failed miserably in this bit, didn't he. No?
I mean why didn't he use "Speak" or any number of other words. Surely he could have seen the terrible mistake Muslims would make for hundreds of years - and up till today - thinking that God says it's OK to hit their wives.
Or doesn't he care?
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God doesn't want us to hit our wives so he uses a word that means "hit".
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Let's assume for arguments sake that this verse doesn't mean hit them and the Qur'an was in fact stopping this evil practice.
Don't you think it was a big mistake to use a word that 99.9% of Muslims for 1400 years would (quite understandably) think means "Hit" - and they still do today.
Since this is God's "Clear Book" and "Guidance" for mankind - it has to be said God failed miserably in this bit, didn't he. No?
I mean why didn't he use "Speak" or any number of other words. Surely he could have seen the terrible mistake Muslims would make for hundreds of years - and up till today - thinking that God says it's OK to hit their wives.
Or doesn't he care?
Well said!
from deep inside, we feel the same way, thats the main reason to rationalise that verse. Perhaps some day we'll be able to think independently and criticise quran where we feel its wrong. I also believe it is impossible to agree with quran on everything unless you are a blind follower.
Peace.
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Well said!
from deep inside, we feel the same way, thats the main reason to rationalise that verse. Perhaps some day we'll be able to think independently and criticise quran where we feel its wrong. I also believe it is impossible to agree with quran on everything unless you are a blind follower.
Peace.
Wow what a re entry welcom back handshake D
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Well said!
from deep inside, we feel the same way, thats the main reason to rationalise that verse. Perhaps some day we'll be able to think independently and criticise quran where we feel its wrong. I also believe it is impossible to agree with quran on everything unless you are a blind follower.
Peace.
Well in one way I really want to say good luck to you guys as I would dearly love to see Muslims move away from the harsh and violent beliefs many hold.
But for me it just shows that the Qur'an is not from God - if there is a God, which I'm doubtful about.
Anyhoooo.... I think I'll be heading back to the Ex-Muslim forum I usually hang out on
http//www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?action=forum
I may pop in again later.
Peace )
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Greetings, before you split and since you asked...
Thank you for giving me another example proving what I said above - if you understood what I said then you would have realised it.
The issue is NOT whether daraba can mean other things. It is well known that it does. In fact I gave some examples. What I said was that it needs to be qualified by a preposition and/or another word to make it mean something else. You just confirmed what I said above.
The verse you quoted has both a preposition and a qualifying word to make Daraba mean something other than "Hit" in a literal sense.
It means "They do not strike/set it forth to you save by way of disputation"
The word Daraba is qualified by laka and Jadalan
God doesn't want us to hit our wives so he uses a word that means "hit".
M arabhu Laka 'Ill Jadalan Bal Hum Qawmun Khaimna
4358 they beat/hit you to/for you only arguingCan?t go by how it comes out in English or Arabic grammars invented hundreds of years later nor do we need to show/beat you with an exact example of another non literal beating in Qur?an. Not a step by step as some infer and no problem saying it in reverse either; same thing?
Wa Aribhunna Wa Ahjurhunna F Al-Maji`i
?and show them and abandon them in the place of lying down?Btw, translate the last part of the verse...
??abandon them in the place of lying down and show them (thus)"...
Fa'in 'Aanakum Fal TabghAlayhinna Sablan 'Inna Allha Kna `Alyan Kabran
ELSE IF they abide by you,
ELSE do not Tabgh on them
-- a way that God is high, mighty/great.You can cross-reference meaning here (how most appropriate verse too)...
399 Qul Y 'Ahla Al-Kitbi Lima Tauddna
An Sabli Allhi Man 'mana TabghnahIwajan Wa 'Antum Shuhad'u Wa M Allhu BighfilinAmm TamalnaSay "You The Book's people, why do you obstruct from God's path who believed, you wish/desire it crookedness, and you are witnessing, and God is not with ignoring what you are doing." (See also 786)
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Nothing in the ending of the verse means we must take daraba non-literally in 3.34.
Can't you see that in every other example you guys produce from the Qur'an to show a non-literal usage of daraba - there is some qualification in the verse that means one must take it non-literally.
There is NOTHING that qualifies daraba in 3.34. There is no reason to take it non-literally.
Can anyone give me one good reason - from the text - why it doesn't mean hit?
And you all seem to have your different meanings for it?
Can't you see that it is your humanity that drives you to this - not the text!
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Daniel J. Boorstin said
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge.And that's kinda rich! I'm not the one who dismisses 1400 years of Arabic Scholars, hadiths, etc... that all say this means "Hit".
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Nothing in the ending of the verse means we must take daraba non-literally in 3.34
Can anyone give me one good reason - from the text - why it doesn't mean hit?
I asked a simple question; translate exactly what it says at end of the verse (in red) and what it is refers to...
Btw, translate the last part of the verse...
??abandon them in the place of lying down and show them (thus)"...
Fa'in 'Aanakum Fal TabghAlayhinna Sablan 'Inna Allha Kna `Alyan Kabran
ELSE IF they abide by you,
ELSE do not Tabgh on them
-- a way that God is high, mighty/great.You can cross-reference meaning here (how most appropriate verse too)...
399 Qul Y 'Ahla Al-Kitbi Lima Tauddna
An Sabli Allhi Man 'mana TabghnahIwajan Wa 'Antum Shuhad'u Wa M Allhu BighfilinAmm TamalnaSay "You The Book's people, why do you obstruct from God's path who believed, you wish/desire it crookedness, and you are witnessing, and God is not with ignoring what you are doing." (See also 786)
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Well in one way I really want to say good luck to you guys as I would dearly love to see Muslims move away from the harsh and violent beliefs many hold.
But for me it just shows that the Qur'an is not from God - if there is a God, which I'm doubtful about.
Anyhoooo.... I think I'll be heading back to the Ex-Muslim forum I usually hang out on
http//www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?action=forum
I may pop in again later.
Peace )
good luck to you too. )
Just a quick question how would you translate
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I asked a simple question; translate exactly what it says at end of the verse (in red) and what it is refers to...
Yusuf Ali's translation is fine
"But if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance) For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)."
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Well said!
from deep inside, we feel the same way, thats the main reason to rationalise that verse. Perhaps some day we'll be able to think independently and criticise quran where we feel its wrong. I also believe it is impossible to agree with quran on everything unless you are a blind follower.
Peace.
whose "we"? Speak for yourself.
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And that's kinda rich! I'm not the one who dismisses 1400 years of Arabic Scholars, hadiths, etc... that all say this means "Hit".
And for countless centuries people thought the world was flat. What a fallacious argument you bring. Why don't you just come out and say you are not interested in debating with Hadith Rejecters.
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good luck to you too. )
Just a quick question how would you translate
Yusuf Ali's translation is fine
Thus doth Allah (by parables) show forth Truth and Vanity...
But like I say there is always a clear qualification, wording, preposition, adverb etc... that gives clear reason whether it is to be taken non-literally - in this case there are two obvious ones. Firstly Truth and Falsehood are abstract nouns so one can't literally "hit" them and secondly the verse goes on to say "Likewise does God set forth parables." Can't really get clearer than that.
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Yusuf Ali's translation is fine
"But if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance) For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)."
..."seek not against them Means (of annoyance)"?
Why not cross-reference with verse below see if makes sense...
399 Qul Y 'Ahla Al-Kitbi Lima Tauddna
An Sabli Allhi Man 'mana TabghnahIwajan Wa 'Antum Shuhad'u Wa M Allhu BighfilinAmm TamalnaSay "You The Book's people, why do you obstruct from God's path who believed, you wish/desire it crookedness, and you are witnessing, and God is not with ignoring what you are doing." (See also 786)
Read...
Wa Ahjurhunna F Al-Maji`i Wa Aribhunna
...and abandon them in the place of lying down and show them (thus)...Fa'in 'Aa`nakum
ELSE IF they abide by you,Fal Tabgh `Alayhinna
ELSE don't Tabgh on them (F)Sablan 'Inna Allha Kna `Alyan Kabran
-- A way that God is high, mighty/great. -
..."seek not against them Means (of annoyance)"?
Why not cross-reference with verse below see if makes sense...
399 Qul Y 'Ahla Al-Kitbi Lima Tauddna
An Sabli Allhi Man 'mana TabghnahIwajan Wa 'Antum Shuhad'u Wa M Allhu BighfilinAmm TamalnaSay "You The Book's people, why do you obstruct from God's path who believed, you wish/desire it crookedness, and you are witnessing, and God is not with ignoring what you are doing." (See also 786)
Read...
Wa Ahjurhunna F Al-Maji`i Wa Aribhunna
...and abandon them in the place of lying down and show them (thus)...Fa'in 'Aa`nakum
ELSE IF they abide by you,Fal Tabgh `Alayhinna
ELSE don't Tabgh on them (F)Sablan 'Inna Allha Kna `Alyan Kabran
-- A way that God is high, mighty/great.What point are you making?
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What point are you making?
Is it not clear to you when using cross-referrance and substitution exactly what the verse is saying?
399 Qul Y 'Ahla Al-Kitbi Lima Tauddna
An Sabli Allhi Man 'mana TabghnahIwajan Wa 'Antum Shuhad'u Wa M Allhu BighfilinAmm TamalnaSay "You The Book's people, why do you obstruct from God's path who believed, you wish/desire it crookedness, and you are witnessing, and God is not with ignoring what you are doing." (See also 786)
Read...
Wa Ahjurhunna F Al-Maji`i Wa Aribhunna
...and abandon them in the place of lying down and show them (thus)...Fa'in 'Aa`nakum
ELSE IF they abide by you,Fal Tabgh `Alayhinna
ELSE don't Tabgh on them (F) -
Is it not clear to you when using cross-referrance and substitution exactly what the verse is saying?
Nope, could you spell it out for me.
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Yusuf Ali's translation is fine
Thus doth Allah (by parables) show forth Truth and Vanity...
But like I say there is always a clear qualification, wording, preposition, adverb etc... that gives clear reason whether it is to be taken non-literally - in this case there are two obvious ones. Firstly Truth and Falsehood are abstract nouns so one can't literally "hit" them and secondly the verse goes on to say "Likewise does God set forth parables." Can't really get clearer than that.
you are precisely right! Peace
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Nope, could you spell it out for me.
Wa Aribhunna or "and show them" (thus) refers back to Wa Ahjurhunna F Al-Maji`i
"...and abandon them in the place of lying down" ELSE IF they abide by youFal Tabgh `Alayhinna
ELSE don't you desire (Tabghū on them (F)Is it not clear to you when using cross-referrance and substitution exactly what the verse is saying?
399 Qul Y 'Ahla Al-Kitbi Lima Tauddna
An Sabli Allhi Man 'mana TabghnahIwajan Wa 'Antum Shuhad'u Wa M Allhu BighfilinAmm TamalnaSay "You The Book's people, why do you obstruct from God's path who believed, you wish/desire it crookedness, and you are witnessing, and God is not with ignoring what you are doing." (See also 786)