Quran DIVINITY ( how to we know it has never been changed

Wakas

Perhaps you should consider what does The Quran itself say about verifying it?

Roshan

Perhaps you should consider what does The Quran itself say about verifying it?

Peace

That is an acceptable question if you are one who submits. However, the poster may not and even if he does may be keen to verify the historicity of the claim.

Furthermore, we all acknowledge that the Quran has changed anyway, through the addition of speech and vowel marks. Some also like to bring up the issue of Uthman too.

Roshan

amin

Nice question, yes its a book, it may be changed or may not be.

i think its a message and already passed to people at the time of Mohammed.

So now its all Gods guidance that matters, Reading Quran one can easily find that its not a guide of whats right and wrong. It just has some important message of one God and good people will be guided right by the Gods message/signs(including Quran).
Everything else in Quran are answers to some events at the time of Mohammed for bringing him and who believe in one God to the right path.

Wakas

peace Roshan,

That is an acceptable question if you are one who submits. However, the poster may not and even if he does may be keen to verify the historicity of the claim.

Ahh yes, that is true. I guess my main point was that even if one studies all the information and even if it is heavily weighted in favour of changed or no change, it will still not supersede the internal verification system of Al Quran.

How does one verify a guidance? If you buy a desk with assembly iinstructions, how does one verify the guidance received with the desk is correct/truthful? Like most books, like most truths, it is its contents that determine its integrity. It stands on its own, and it can only be defeated on its own.

MUNZIR_ALI

My question too you all is wat is you reason why you think that the quran has never changed in 1400 years and how it was preservedover these years

Because it is a book that can be memorized word to word.

unknownuser

peace Roshan,

Ahh yes, that is true. I guess my main point was that even if one studies all the information and even if it is heavily weighted in favour of changed or no change, it will still not supersede the internal verification system of Al Quran.

This is entirely correct. Instead of saying this is that and that is this, shut the hell up and observe reality for what it is. Then you have the right to make a judgement on how things are in reality. And I find that the quran just so happens to fit in perfectly as a description of the physical reality we live in. Unfortunately the message is heavily distorted at this present time, I guess for divine reasons. Despite the distortions, the words are still there in a certain form. If it is divinely ordained that a book is to be preserved, then no amount of distortion of the meaning shall ever affect the preservation of the book; this is a tautological truth.

RA786

I understand that it is memorized (similar to a song) for over 1400 years...

However, what does this mean to an Athiest or a Questioner?

Any book can be momorized....yes or No? So isnt this Reason a little Irrelevant to the Initial Question?

Question How Do we know it has never been changed-(not in the sense of vowl marks or speach but in the sense of Missing/Adding fake Vereses)?

A)uh....Just Beacause it IS!"
("Do you dare ask a Fish how it swims? or a Bird how it flys? No sir you dont, They DO IT because they were born to do it... Just like Willy Wonka was Born to be a Candy man) O0 "

B) There is a Mathamatical Code to Verify it.

As far as I know these are the only two Options....As far as Varifiable EVIDENCE goes....There is None except for the Mathamatical Code...(which is Under Debate).
So really for most people...there is no evidence. They just believe that the Quran has not been changed because they believe Option A).

Here is my Theory
You have a Jew, Christian, and Sunni Muslim. All of them Believe that Their Religion and Book is Pure. However all of them Criticize eachother for failing in Following Scripture Alone....which is Ironically what they themselves are guilty of.

The Jew will say that you Need Rabbanical Literature and The Talmud to understand the Torah and believe the Torah has never been changed....The Christian will do the same and the Sunni Muslim the same with the Quran and the hadith.

We as Quran Aloners (most of us) will agree 100% to the above statement.
We will probabily Also all agree that the Quran actually exposes to us the Truth that the Torah, and Bible have Both Been altered and changed.

So just like I would Tell a Sunni Muslim "Brother, The Jews Fell into the Trap of Adding Following the Talmud instead of the Torah, The Christian Fell into the same trap by following the pope and religious clergy's laws, You too have fell into the same trap by following Hadith instead of the Quran."

Key NOTE the Pattern is the same....."Following a Different Book instead of the Book of Allah".

Now I would tell the Quran Aloner.... The Jews have Altered the Torah...yet believe it to be pure....The Christians have Altered the Bible ....yet believe it to be pure...and now the Muslims have the Quran and Believe it to be Pure.....WHAT makes them different from the Jew or Christian?

History has shown a Pattern of Altering and Adding for All groups....what makes the Muslims So different?

He will reply.... Because GOD will Protect us. (same thing the jewish and christian people say)

So Inconclusion.... I feel you are either going to go off of Faith (such as the Jew,christian, and Muslim)

OR Your going to believe in the Mathamatical Code to Verify the Quran's Authenticity.

Either way.....Edip is going to probabily think that you are just putting your faith in Religion without varifying anything and having absolutly no valid claim to answer to the Quran's Authenticity....and Ayman is going to say that if you believe in Code19 you are also a blind follower putting your faith in something that has absolutly no validity in the answr to the Quran's Authenticity.

Eather way, you are accused of blind faith and have only an argument...... laugh police

So the Question Remains.......What Side are you on?......I'll go with Code19 since it seems more logical...(until I have the Nessesary Skills to prove or disprove)

I think this Quran Code 19 Authenticity thing so far is like the GOD Question.
Most are Agnostic...Some Athiest...and some Believers.
The Athiests cannot really "Prove" God doesnt exist....The Believers Prove God's Existence however only through their eyes/perception...
and the Agnostics cant really make up their mind but will inveitably fall into one of the two catagories one day.

unknownuser

I'll go with Code19 since it seems more logical...(until I have the Nessesary Skills to prove or disprove)

Peace, why not code 29 actually harder with less probability of multiples...

For code to exist there can be only ONE consistent pattern NOT as many as there are atoms in 10% of the universe. If there is a code look for symmetry involving prime numbers; i.e. somthing like this based on the prime numbers 29 same as #of initialed chapters, and primes 209029 and 12791 although haven't checked all the posibilities if it prevents moving an even number of verses between odd or even chapters and if it destroys the symmetry or not being divisbal by the prime 29 which is a lot harder on probability.

Verses CH V*CH V+CH 57 Even 57 Odd
7 1 7 8 8
286 2 572 288 288
200 3 600 203 203
176 4 704 180 180
120 5 600 125 125
165 6 990 171 171
206 7 1442 213 213
75 8 600 83 83
129 9 1161 138 138
109 10 1090 119 119
123 11 1353 134 134
111 12 1332 123 123
43 13 559 56 56
52 14 728 66 66
99 15 1485 114 114
128 16 2048 144 144
111 17 1887 128 128
110 18 1980 128 128
98 19 1862 117 117
135 20 2700 155 155
112 21 2352 133 133
78 22 1716 100 100
118 23 2714 141 141
64 24 1536 88 88
77 25 1925 102 102
227 26 5902 253 253
93 27 2511 120 120
88 28 2464 116 116
69 29 2001 98 98
60 30 1800 90 90
34 31 1054 65 65
30 32 960 62 62
73 33 2409 106 106
54 34 1836 88 88
45 35 1575 80 80
83 36 2988 119 119
182 37 6734 219 219
88 38 3344 126 126
75 39 2925 114 114
85 40 3400 125 125
54 41 2214 95 95
53 42 2226 95 95
89 43 3827 132 132
59 44 2596 103 103
37 45 1665 82 82
35 46 1610 81 81
38 47 1786 85 85
29 48 1392 77 77
18 49 882 67 67
45 50 2250 95 95
60 51 3060 111 111
49 52 2548 101 101
62 53 3286 115 115
55 54 2970 109 109
78 55 4290 133 133
96 56 5376 152 152
29 57 1653 86 86
22 58 1276 80 80
24 59 1416 83 83
13 60 780 73 73
14 61 854 75 75
11 62 682 73 73
11 63 693 74 74
18 64 1152 82 82
12 65 780 77 77
12 66 792 78 78
30 67 2010 97 97
52 68 3536 120 120
52 69 3588 121 121
44 70 3080 114 114
28 71 1988 99 99
28 72 2016 100 100
20 73 1460 93 93
56 74 4144 130 130
40 75 3000 115 115
31 76 2356 107 107
50 77 3850 127 127
40 78 3120 118 118
46 79 3634 125 125
42 80 3360 122 122
29 81 2349 110 110
19 82 1558 101 101
36 83 2988 119 119
25 84 2100 109 109
22 85 1870 107 107
17 86 1462 103 103
19 87 1653 106 106
26 88 2288 114 114
30 89 2670 119 119
20 90 1800 110 110
15 91 1365 106 106
21 92 1932 113 113
11 93 1023 104 104
8 94 752 102 102
8 95 760 103 103
19 96 1824 115 115
5 97 485 102 102
8 98 784 106 106
8 99 792 107 107
11 100 1100 111 111
11 101 1111 112 112
8 102 816 110 110
3 103 309 106 106
9 104 936 113 113
5 105 525 110 110
4 106 424 110 110
7 107 749 114 114
3 108 324 111 111
6 109 654 115 115
3 110 330 113 113
5 111 555 116 116
4 112 448 116 116
5 113 565 118 118
6 114 684 120 120

6236 6555 209029 12791 6236 6555 = 29 x 21505708692768664798702295

Flip Odd & Even columns OR Verse & Chapter columns still stay multiple?

6236 6555 209029 12791 6555 6236 = 29 x 21505708692768664798812284
6555 6236 209029 12791 6555 6236 = 29 x 22605598692768664798702295
6555 6236 209029 12791 6236 6555 = 29 x 22605598692768664798812284

Calculator http//www.markknowsnothing.com/cgi-bin/calculator.cgi

Let's say someone decides to move 100 verses from ch 9 and adds them to ch 11 so it looks like this...

29 9 261 38 38
223 11 2453 234 234

6236 6555 209229 12791 6236 6555

Obvioulsly the prime 209029 is changed to 209229 not prime and result not multiple.

That's one simple example at a high level and as I said, haven't really looked into it much and one has to take it further see what prevents someone from switching whole chapters like inserting the 3 verses from ch 108 into ch 110 and vice versa. Those are the kinds things a code needs to do not print meanlingless mutliples which anyone can find at random in any text print them to satisfy an obsesion with a number.

Peace

RA786

why not code 64 or 99 or 14?

would it matter? again, either way and eaither code...or even No Code at all...

It will be looked at as Blind Faith with absolutley NO evidence to back it up.

So I suppose it may be hard for some to Prove that the Quran is Authentic.

What I dont get is how angry people get about trying to Prove Code 19ers WRONG or how Angry Code 19ers get trying to Prove it Right.
Both parties will critisize eachother because they cannot see out of the same prospective. They Recognize Allah however see is miracles from different angles.
Similar to the example about a Rainbow. Only Some people will see it because it can only bee seen at a certain angle with a certin light and water.

The people at bad Angles will say the rainbow doesnt exist....the People who do see it will recognize it but may argue amoung themselves because they saw it from different angles.

Can they Prove the rainbows existance if the non-seers stood in the same place? No. it would be impossible.

An Athiest wil criticize Edip for having no wieght and following Numerology, and An Athiest will critisize Ayaman for having No wieght and having Blind Faith.
Both will be seen as haveing Weak Argument.

So whats the difference what does it matter what you belive?
The Point is, AT LEAST you believe in the Rainbow. Whether its from a Top angle or a Bottom angle....At LEAT you believe and are Able to SEE THE RAINBOW.

You know what Edip and Ayman have ing common...? (Besides weak arguments in trying to convince an Athiests?)
They BOTH believe in the Quran's Authenticity and Preservation.
They do so in differen ways...and a matter of 2 vereses....however They Both Believe in the Quran as the ultimate Miracle.

What ever we chose is going to be percieved as a weak argument either way. But it is our Perception/Experience/Logic/belif.

Wootah

The problem I think you have is that you claim your book hasn't changed and someone else's book has and vice versa. Each side decides to believe what they believed to begin with and so no conclusions can be drawn (and probably someone is dead).

Personally I don't think your book has changed. Do I think word for word it is the same, not really, but I fully accept and am happy to work with the idea that what it contains is your view of God. All the major concepts got passed down adequately so that we can discuss them. This is what Christians think about their own books. I personally think that we both can accept that oral traditions were important to the tribes and people back then. Today I don't even know who my great grandma was but back then they memorised their linage and their name often reflected that linage. Similar the 'people of the book' were people of the book to preserve their culture. It seems desperate to assume they were 'people of the book' to corrupt their culture.

I think the core reason you think the Christian books have changed is because we don't idolise (poor choice of words) our prophets. What I mean is that all the OT prophets were used by God but nearly all of them had major faults and failings. In fact we use this as evidence that God is real. When Gideon defeats some army with 300 the stories purpose is to show that only God could have achieved this victory. God loves the prophets (all of us) but none of them are worthy.

I don't think codes can ever prove anything because they suffer from the same problem as the claim that the designed nature of the universe proves God It doesn't. And worse you set up the book for failure. If the code is false then the non-believer has evidence that the book is not from God and if the code is real then the non-believer has even better evidence that the book was designed.

The way to prove a book is false is to use it's premises as a basis for showing that it is false. At least this means that you have to venture beyond simply dismissing the other person's book as false. If it is false then what is in it will show that it is false. The lies and contradictions will surface.

The only problem with this avenue is the problem of context. Understanding why God might say do this morally questionable thing because I said. 9 times out of 10 we look in each others religion see wicked things and decide "Oh that can't be from God". Christians face this problem all the time when we discuss Christianity and get the Old Testament violence thrown in our face. I am sure Muslims face this problem all the time when you want to teach that Islam is the religion of peace and your opponents want to point out Mohammad's numerous conflicts. Christians are happy to argue context. The OT was for a struggling Israelite nation that was rebellious and the NT is for everyone. The NT is for everyone whereas the OT needs to be viewed through the lens of understanding what God was working with at the time. Muslims really can't argue context, why would God's final revelation have revelation that was specific to only a time and place. It would be simpler to cut those specific revelations out than leave them where they might be interpreted as guidance for us today. (Fair or not fair?)

Why not use a moral code test? If I can't abide by the morals then it isn't from God. We can easily see that if there was a book that said God wants you to kill and lie, etc" Then we would know this was not from God. Just the words be in each book, stop accusing corruption from either side and let the morality dictate.

Does the teaching fit my morality? Even the hypocrites love their children. So you would expect that they would be able to identify some similar morals in a religious book. So the book would have to at least match our current moral standards (assuming that our morals are not totally askew).

Does the teaching make my own view on morality seem immoral? Yes adultery is bad but then being told 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone' shows me that my own moral system is actually quite pathetic in comparison. You could argue that in the Koran the 'killing one is like killing all humanity' is a deeper morality. (is that what it says?)

I mean here is why I can't be a Muslim. Does your book teach morality and teach a deeper morality than the one that I have from the NT? If what I believe is right then God really wants me to turn the other cheek, not because it is sensible (because it clearly isn't sensible), but because the message is so important that winning earthly battles mean nothing. Saving the sinner is just more important than saving yourself. When Jesus was to be crucified (before being taken away as you believe) he washed the feet of his disciples, can you imagine? What sort of morality teaches that the master should be like the servant? My only conclusion is because God knows that only love reveals and love is service and God served on the front lines. It's just a much deeper morality than I could even muster alone and I haven't seen (or let's say understood) how the Koran and Islam provides a deeper morality than the book that came before it.

amin

Quran a book, its not the business of God to protect it.
its the message that will be preserved. God guides whomever he wishes and they will transmit His message to generations.
The message is actually not new in Quran, its a reminder as its first passed to Adam.
Read Quran and find out if you got the message.

unknownuser

(Redundant post)

Wootah

Either way.....Edip is going to probabily think that you are just putting your faith in Religion without varifying anything and having absolutly no valid claim to answer to the Quran's Authenticity....and Ayman is going to say that if you believe in Code19 you are also a blind follower putting your faith in something that has absolutly no validity in the answr to the Quran's Authenticity.

Islam seems to have put itself on a terrible precipice by declaring that it's book is totally unaltered and claiming that even one alteration justifies non-belief. It's why I don't ever intend to concern myself with such a claim and am much more interested in the contents of the message rather than if every i and every t is in the book and if there is a code in the book preserving it.

I think we can go by the morality conveyed in each book. However that would take more than misquoting passages and dismissing whole books. Something we all love to do.

unknownuser

Islam seems to have put itself on a terrible precipice by declaring that it's book is totally unaltered and claiming that even one alteration justifies non-belief. It's why I don't ever intend to concern myself with such a claim and am much more interested in the contents of the message rather than if every i and every t is in the book and if there is a code in the book preserving it.

I think we can go by the morality conveyed in each book. However that would take more than misquoting passages and dismissing whole books. Something we all love to do.

God wrote the entire universe from scratch. Do you see any break in the code, any mathematical fuckup? So if the master mathematician can code the universe with sheer ease then surely he can write a small book? If it is willed by the ALL-POWERFUL that "this book shall not be touched", just how difficult is it to understand that this book probably will not be touched by non-ALL-POWERFUL beings? Why have people not distorted the quran, instead they rely on distorting it through many additional volumes known as "hadeeth", "tafseer", translations, all warned about in the book? Because this book is damn well untouchable.

Wootah

God wrote the entire universe from scratch. Do you see any break in the code, any mathematical fuckup? So if the master mathematician can code the universe with sheer ease then surely he can write a small book? If it is willed by the ALL-POWERFUL that "this book shall not be touched", just how difficult is it to understand that this book probably will not be touched by non-ALL-POWERFUL beings? Why have people not distorted the quran, instead they rely on distorting it through many additional volumes known as "hadeeth", "tafseer", translations, all warned about in the book? Because this book is damn well untouchable.

I appreciate your point and why it is important to you. I also acknowledge that free-minds has a few code 19 people and that I frankly am not qualified to know if the code exists in the Koran. I have not the linguist skills in Arabic. However surely you understand that the message matters not the code? I would be sad if you believed the Koran because of the code 19 and not just because of the message in the Koran.

nsws1988

Just like Willy Wonka was Born to be a Candy man) O0 "

Great! Now I have Aqua's Candyman stuck in my head!

unknownuser

I appreciate your point and why it is important to you. I also acknowledge that free-minds has a few code 19 people and that I frankly am not qualified to know if the code exists in the Koran. I have not the linguist skills in Arabic. However surely you understand that the message matters not the code? I would be sad if you believed the Koran because of the code 19 and not just because of the message in the Koran.

I don't believe for a second that the 19 code is anything but numerology, a pathologically proven system. Such things can never be used to presrve a text since the "code" is derived from the resultant text and so any distortions would be incorporated into the code and declared holy, how pathetic!

Rather I believe that the book is clearly written according to the divine measure, and it is the rules of physics that actually dictate that there is no changing the vibrational signature of the quran in space and time irrespective of the efforts of the dastardly beings in this universe.

rraza