If Allah wants things to be easy for us, why so much confusion about salat?

RA786

Salaam Ths, Thank you, and I totally agree 100% with what you said, and I like your story.

Also, I hear Wakas Constantly saying that "We have More in Common, then what we disagree on." and that is True, and should be the reminder we are under when uniting.

My whole Issue with the Salat issue is this

There will always be disagreements on the salat...this is Natural. After the Prophet different sects emereged.
However, I think that there will still be a Majority who agrees on a specific way right? and there will still be a Majority who believes the Hajj is a cerain way right?
what is the majority agreeing on?

Today, the Majority of Muslims (in general) Believe the Sunni way Ritual Prayer is teh Correct way. Even Rashad Khalifa believes this is saved through Tradition.
What do you all think. You may Critisize Rashad Khalifa on many levels...from Mathamatics to Religious heresay....
BUT Does his Hypothasis/Theory hold any weight in reguards to the Salat ritual being Partially Explained/preserved in the Quran, and Partcially preserved in Tradition over the years being passed down through generations?

There will always be a Majority who believes one thing and small minorities who believe otherwise. I guess I have come to terms (Slowly) realizing that There will be things in the Quran that perhaps we many never truley know because we are after thr prophet .(unless Allah reveals it to us individually).

You Are right Sarah, D There is no need for me to be negitive and believe that Unity cannot be achieved just because there is a difference of opinion.
Perhaps it wasnt the Consensus on Salat, Hajj, etc, that held the people togeather in the "Golden Age of Islam" but their Tolerance and Striving to be One Ummah in Leading the world through Science and Behavior reguardless of difference in opinion.

It kinda seems that things werent as dogmatic back then as they are now.

nsws1988

Salam all,

Firstly, RA786 - your smileys are sooo cute!!

Secondly, I would like an opinion on this verse

And thus We have inspired to you an Arabic Quran, so that you may warn the capital town and all around it, and to warn about the Day of Summoning that is inevitable. A group will be in Paradise, and a group in Hell {427}

Doesn't that mean it is the Arabic speakers responsibility to teach those around them? I'm not saying that no one needs to bother learning the Quran, as you'll know by reading by last post. I'm just talking about those who are new to islam and have to rely on translations and the help of their brothers and sisters, just like many on this forum.

I pray that one day. by God's guidance we will finally understand the Quran better pr

Wakas

Remember, even polytheists can live under the deen, see the profound chapter 9 of AQ.
Background reading.

I think Sarah's analogy of the workplace is quite apt, because I'm sure many of us work with people who differ in views, sometimes greatly, but are all united under the company's goals/system/direction/etc. If this structure can be likened to the structure of the deen, in which believers/non-believers/Jews/Christians/etc can fall under, then if they have unity in direction/action/goals/system, not necessarily beliefs, it can work.

To me, these questions of difference are all academic, and always have been, I only discuss them because I am interested in determining truth, increasing my knowledge, sharing with my fellow brothers/sisters etc. If a person observes a belief or practice different to mine, then it does not bother me one bit. It is only relevant if their belief/practice has a direct and detrimental effect upon me, or if they say "this is from Quran" and I disagree then I have the right to ask "please provide evidence" etc. This is perfectly natural.

Note, how disunity/confusion/variance is implied yet the level of quality of specific research in this area is limited. Do not confuse lack of an answer as there is no answer. AQ is waiting to unfold for each and everyone of us, be as a mirror to it, let its image be reflected within you, just as you direct your heart/mind upon it let it direct itself upon your heart/mind, open yourself up as you open it up, give as much as it gives to you etc.

Like a buried treasure, we are uncovering it piece by piece, and it is only a matter of time before its message is restored in its original purity/clarity, so let us all grab a shovel and unite in digging.

ths

Salaam Wakas,

I just read your link Disproved once and for all salat=prayer
It was really interesting reading, and you make a very compelling argument

But surely you also agree that salah can mean a few things, right? Or do you hold that salah is always referred to in the Quran as an oath or a bond?

And how do you reconcile this view with the ayahs that mention prostration?

These verses specifically seem to be talking about a physical prayer

one can seek help through the salat
salat can involve speaking and one should know what one is saying (i.e. have a clear head, not intoxicated).
One should be clean before coming near the salat.
salat is finite
salat can be shortened and done on the move in case of fear
in cases of fear, salat can be done in two groups in a rotational manner
It can end with acknowledgement (submitting/agreeing/hearing&obeying/responding positively)
For the faithful/believer/trustful the salat is a timed book/decree/law
the salat can be called to
'institutes of acknowledgement' (masajida) are maintained/visited by those who uphold the salat
salat can be attended

(taken from your excellent notes on salah)

And lastly, if it's not too much to ask, could you relate to us how you do salat? And how does one perform salah 3 times a day if it's simply a bond? Just read the Quran?

From reading your article my own conclusion is that you're right, in that case, but that there is a bond for the muslims and there is a bond for the non-muslims, and for the non-muslims it's a metaphysical bond the way you speak of, but for the muslims it is both metaphysical and physical.

Edit
Just out of interest....check out what Sahih Ibn Kathir has to say on verse 912 that you discuss in your article

(then fight the Mushrikin wherever you find them), means, on the earth in general, except for the Sacred Area, for Allah said,

(And fight not with them at Al-Masjid Al-Haram, unless they fight you there. But if they attack you, then fight them. )2191 Allah said here,

(and capture them), executing some and keeping some as prisoners,

(and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush), do not wait until you find them. Rather, seek and besiege them in their areas and forts, gather intelligence about them in the various roads and fairways so that what is made wide looks ever smaller to them. This way, they will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam,

(But if they repent and perform the Salah, and give the Zakah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.) Abu Bakr As-Siddiq used this and other honorable Ayat as proof for fighting those who refrained from paying the Zakah. These Ayat allowed fighting people unless, and until, they embrace Islam and implement its rulings and obligations. Allah mentioned the most important aspects of Islam here, including what is less important. Surely, the highest elements of Islam after the Two Testimonials, are the prayer, which is the right of Allah, the Exalted and Ever High, then the Zakah, which benefits the poor and needy. These are the most honorable acts that creatures perform, and this is why Allah often mentions the prayer and Zakah together. In the Two Sahihs, it is recorded that Ibn `Umar said that the Messenger of Allah said,

(I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, establish the prayer and pay the Zakah.) This honorable Ayah (95) was called the Ayah of the Sword, about which Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim said, "It abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolator, every treaty, and every term.'' Al-Awfi said that Ibn Abbas commented "No idolator had any more treaty or promise of safety ever since Surah Bara'ah was revealed. The four months, in addition to, all peace treaties conducted before Bara'ah was revealed and announced had ended by the tenth of the month of Rabi` Al-Akhir.''

RA786

I have a Question...

If Our Goal is to remember GOD, Isnt the Traditional Ritual prayer a Form of Remembrance?
Obviously not everyone will do the ritual prayer as Everyone will remember GOD in their own way they seem befitting.

But what I am trying to say is that...Is the Word Salat Vague and Open enough for it to mean Prayer and Just simply reading the quran?

I think the Ritual Prayer is obviously a Form of Remembrance or can be made in to one.

By stopping all business to do a ritual prayer consisting of reading/reciting Quran and Glorifying God...Taking deep breathes and asking GOD to give you guidance and the means to give Charity to others, as well as Reflecting on the Surah's that you are reciting and how they are relevant in your life....
...isnt this ALL remembrance?

By doing this Ritualistic Prayer, you have (lack of a better word "Killed two birds with one stone".... Meaning, You are fullfilling a "Bond" by reading the Quran and Reflecting/reciting, and are remembering your GOD as well as thinking of others and asking for help in your Duaa.

This to me all falls under the tent of SALAT.

do you all agree?

Wakas

peace ths,

In the article you read, it also linked to this article. Please read it for my view on "salat", and to answer some of your questions.

Re prostration
The evidence is weighted against a physical prostration in AQ. Please see past threads in this forum, e.g.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15172.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7428.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598350.15

To summarise, from my studies, sjd is an actionable representation of "hearing and obeying" or "giving recognition/acknowledgement", whatever form it takes (unless being used idiomatically of course). If we may think outside the box for a moment have you ever observed a tree swaying in the direction the wind takes it in? This is my conceptual understanding of sjd. I believe this is akin to the example given in AQ to do with shadows and sjd . Of course, God knows best.

I strongly recommend people to utilise the forum search function when possible.

RA786

I was able to gain some more knowledge and Points from this Thread here.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14110.15

I personnnally have come to the conclusion that for me, Al-Salat is Prayer/Conection/Turning Towards.
I think that Iqa Wakas and Ayman All braught up great points of the Argument.

However, I think it would make more sense to me to mean Prayer
For example Dont go near (Prayer) when you are Intoxicated. and You can (Pray) when on a Journey riding horses.

I think that Ayman and Waka's Goal is to reach a Positive Postion (either mentally or Physically) by turning towards Allah. Correct?

I find it that the Traditionalist Ritual Prayer Consists of Both Mental and Physical Aspects and the Goal of Performing it is Synominous with the Goal of Ayman and Waks...(meaning we all wish to achieve the same thing by our involvment/participation in Salat).

Could it be that the Term Salat is Open and Vauge Enough to allow Both My Ritualistic Prayre View of Salaat and Waka's View of Salaat?

wakas what do you think? Are we Both wishing to acomplish virtually the same goal by means of Salat?

ths

Salaam Wakas,

So I went through your articles again..I've gone through them several times over the past few months since I discovered them. They really are great, so thanks for them.

And I agree with most of what you say.

But my one problem is your position on physical prayer. I don't feel convinced by your view on the word "prostration".
I feel that for most of the changes in the religion that I've stumbled upon in the past few months, everything has been clear. The exegesis has been scientific and the difference obvious. Proving the worth of the Quran as the sole source of law without the Hadiths was logical and well argued.

But this part...it just seems like reaching..like a desperate attempt to find fault in something more obvious. It's as if you're trying really hard to find fault in what your predecessors have done with regards to interpretation.

As far as your article on surah 9 goes, I think that your argument is clear and concise. The salah mentioned in surah 9 does not seem to be the physical prayer most people interpret it as.
My argument for that is that it may well be a different form of salah for non-muslims, or for believers in one God who have never heard of Islam for example.

As far as your interpretation of prostration, I think that all the arguments are weak. Everyone seems to be making a valid interpretation based on one or two ayahs that they've studied, and then applied that interpretation to all the other ayahs with the words 'salah'. But in my opinion, each ayah seems to be invoking a different meaning for salah.

In the first link you posted, (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15172.0) Raj-ah mentions this verse

Among His proofs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Do not "prostrate" before the sun, nor the moon; you shall fall prostrate before the GOD who created them, if you truly worship Him alone. 4137

In this verse, a physical prostration is by far the most obvious interpretation. How does one "hear and obey" the sun?? I think that we should in each case take the most obvious meaning, and then see where each verse has taken us. And in this case, physical prostration is the most obvious meaning.

However, then there is this verse
Behold! Joseph said to his father "O my father! I did see eleven stars and the sun and the moon I saw them prostrate themselves to me!" 124

In this case it doesn't make any sense at all as a physical prostration!

mh's excellent analysis in your second link also shows many examples where sujood makes more sense as a metaphysical concept than a physical one.

But here are some that I've dug up and haven't seen mentioned yet

This verse is repeated twice in the Quran from what I've seen so far

2646 and 7120
Then did the sorcerers fall down, prostrate in adoration

I then went and looked at the root word for fa-alqya
= Lam-Qaf-Ya = To meet, meet with, encounter, find, find out a thing, see, come across, experience, suffer from, occur, undergo, endure, lean upon, recieve, come face to face, go in the direction of or towards.
This root has occurred in al quran in 45 forms, and been used about 145 times.

In this verse, the word fa-alqya is a verb. They alqya whilst they were saajideen. This is an odd usage, because it implies that to do sujood you must first alqee.
Looking at these meanings (taken from http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm), it seems that both l q ya and s j d have the meaning "to turn towards"
So the most befitting meaning would be
So they turned, the Sorcerers, turning.
?...What do you think of that? Still not very clear.

Then there is also this one

And during part of the night, (also,) celebrate His praises, and (so likewise) after the postures of adoration. 5040

Adbaar here comes from the root dal-ba-ra

303 Dal-Ba-Ra

to turn the back, flee, follow after, be behind, become old, take a thing away, veer to the west wind, elapse (day, night), follow with respect. Back, hinder part, the last, extremity, that which comes after, at the end of, extreme, last remnant, uttermost part. To dispose, manage, govern, consider, the issues or results of the affairs or the case, perform or execute the affair with thought or consideration, devise or plan the affair with thought or consideration, devise or plan the affair, regulate. Consequence, result. idbar = retreat, withdrawal, setting.

In this case the best translations would be

And during the night, celebrate his praises, retreating in sujood
Or
And during the night, celebrate his praises, performing with consideration the sujood

These can be either physical or no-physical

Those who spend the night in adoration of their Lord prostrate and standing; 2564

Now in this case, qiyaaman is fairly obvious. It means standing, which infers that prayer is physical. There are other mentions of standing during prayer (2238; 339; 4102) as well.
So in this case, it seems to be a physical action that is implied.

But it's getting late and I really have to get to bed if I'm to wake up in 5 hours....so let me summarize my final point

I think that the greatest argument for a physical prayer is the fact that we know Muhammad performed physical prayers.
And I know, I know, we cannot take the hadiths as an incontrovertible source of exegesis, but still...Muhammad started this religion, he prayed, taught his family how to pray, taught his companions how to pray...
so perhaps the Quran is vague on this matter simply because prayer has been passed down directly from them?
How likely is it that the actions that Muhammad taught his followers were destroyed so thoroughly that prayer actually has nothing to do with physical action?
How is it possible that the people who prayed with Muhammad in his home (the mother of all masjids architecturally speaking) then went home and taught their sons, who then went ahead and taught their sons something completely different?
How is it possible that Muhammad would sit reading the Quran during prayers, and then some time after his death people randomly began to perform physical prayer?

I mean come on, the sheer quantity of evidence is overwhelmingly in support of this.
Ali is even said to have been assassinated WHILST praying.

Then there is the fact that adherents of so many other religions around the world pray in a similar fashion. It shows a continuity of the same message.

And I realize that you interpret slw as to turn towards, or to make a bond, but I was more curious in how you've been practicing this and for how long, to see if in practice it yields results. I'm interested in how you feel when doing it, as opposed to how you felt intrinsically when doing physical salat. How has this change affected your worship on a more personal level, putting aside semantics and roots for a minute

Now, as for RA786

Is it Consittered a Transgression to Do 5 ritual prayers complete with Prostration and Recitiation of Quran?
Does doing so make one a Hypocrate of Islam?

I wouldn't worry if I were you. The view that prayer is not a physical ritual is the view of an extremely small minority. The evidence isn't strong enough to say with 100% certainty that one should NOT be doing a physical prayer. After all, the Quran is not very clear on this matter, despite being clear on so much else, which indicates that the method of prayer isn't that important (or that it's obvious). And at the end of the day, God knows your intention.
So don't fret about that too much.

Also, I wouldn't even call it a transgression to do 5 daily prayers, despite the fact that the Quran mentions 3.

The changes I'm considering making permanently are to pray 3 times a day instead of 5, and not to say the tashahhud in the end mentioning Muhammad as Gods messenger.
This is because the Quran asks us not to differentiate between God's prophets, as well as it being an odd thing to add during a prayer directed towards one God.

Edit
RA786, after reading your post I wanted to tell you I like your interpretation.
But i also wanted to drop a word here that I've never once seen mentioned on this forum (not that I've searched for it) Khushoo3
or
Whilst people here reject the sunnah and hadiths altogether, I personally think they're very educational to read through, and is taken very seriously in them. Prayer is nullified without it. To give it a quick off-the-top-of-my-head definition, it's having extreme focus and awareness whilst doing something. I notice a lot of time people keep repeating that 'the traditionalists' do mechanical prayer with no meaning...but that's not true ...the traditionalists believe that to perform prayer right, you have to have khushoo3, so they agree with us here that the mental part is more important than the physical.

RA786

Thanks Brother THS, here is something else That I would like to bring up....

Free-minds Translation O you who believe, if you rise to attend the contact-method, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles.........Surah 5/6.

1st thing I noticed "IF" is used in reguard for the people who believe to Attened the Contact-Method.

I wanted to know if this is Acurate Language. All of the other Translators used a Direct word such as "WHEN", instead of "IF" like Free-minds.
This leads me to believe that Free-minds is saying that the "Contact-Method" is actually Optional and NOT Mandatory

Is this Correct Wakas?

It would seem weird that Allah would say "O You Who Belive" (address the believers for something Important) and then just say "IF" you rise to attend .... Like Maybe you will attend maybe you wont...its Optional.... actually ...Its not even that important anyways...its totally just an Option.

Why does it say IF giving an Option while ALL other Translators Translate this as a Mandatory Even for all that Believe? "If" seems to be very Liberal..
In fact...Most if you ask people to do something but give an "IF" (option) they most likeley arent even going to attend since that would be the Minimal accepted thing to do.

Also Free-minds Translated This as Contact-Method
I would like to have a Free-minds Dictionary Deffinition on what "Contact-Method" means.
The Method of Comming togeather?

How do we Believers Rise and wash to attened a Method of Comming togeather? this seems very ambigious, broad, open, and therefore impossible for me to understand.

WHAT IS THE CONTACT-METHOD?

My Bing Translator and Google Translator and Babylon Translator Say Means "Prayer" or "Pray".

Freeminds "And hold the contact-method, and contribute towards betterment, and kneel with those who kneel." surah 243
The Above seems to indicate that the Contact Method consists of a Physical Kneeling with others.
(i.e. some sort of Ritual Prayer?)

Freeminds... Preserve the contact-methods, and the middle contact-method, and stand devoutly for God. surah 2238
Also used the Word Most Often Translated as Prayer here.
What I am not understanding it says to "Preserve"-Keeping/Continuing "the"(specific) Contact-Method....ESPECIALLY THE MIDDLE CONTACT-METHOD!
what is this Contact Method and why so much emphasis on Preserving and the MIDDLE {ERA or Asr} one? why is the MIDDLE one so Important?

PS...what does Mean? my Translators say It means "AGE" or Era (or known as Asr prayer)

Wakas

peace ths,

So many questions, so I will try and be brief

Re 4137
...do not SJD for/to the sun and not for/to the moon and/but SJD to/for God...

Firstly, I did not say SJD=hear & obey, so please do not imply otherwise.
Secondly, I agree that the superficial interpretation may be to take it physically, however, let us apply reason and consider how does one physically prostrate for/to sun/moon? If it is directional, which it obviously must be if we take it physically, then how does one choose instead to physically prostrate to god? What direction will you now face? Will it be the opposite of the sun/moon? Will it be to a cuboid in Mecca even if the sun/moon is in this same direction? (of course, since the earth is spherical one does not literally face an object on earth many miles away, they face a random point in space). What is the significance of "to God belongs the east and west, so wherever you turn is God's face/direction"?
As we can see, taking it literally causes problems. However, when we take it as what I have previously said, and considering it is a verb, i.e. a doing word, then I would translate it as

...do not give recognition/acknowledgement for/to the sun and not for/to the moon and/but give recognition/acknowledgement to/for God...

Where is the problem?

When studying a word and using Project Root List, please ensure you cross-reference first and foremost words in that EXACT same form. See
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/Qwrmic.htm on the homepage.

Re 2646, 7120
LQY is in the passive form, meaning the object (i.e. sorcerers) received the action expressed in the verb, an action done/completed upon them. I would have to cross reference the form before I decided what is most appropriate. It could mean something like "they met/encountered/found/experienced acknowledgement/recognition" or could be a play on words due to the casting and mean "they were cast (with) acknowledgement/recognition". Also, is it likely they said what they said after whilst physically prostrating when they said it like an announcement? Highly unlikely.

Re 2564
SJD is adjective, qiyaman is a noun according to corpus.quran.com I dont have time to verify usage at the moment. It is likely metaphorical when it uses the same word for "stand for justice" etc.

Thank you for making me revisit 5040, as it now makes perfect sense to me "...and after the recognition/acknowledgement".

Also, see
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598162.msg225018#msg225018

I think that the greatest argument for a physical prayer is the fact that we know Muhammad performed physical prayers.

"know"?

I recommend reading my article on slw again.

peace RA786,
the when/if issue has been discussed before, cant recall the outcome. Bro Damon brought it up if I remember rightly.

Again, I also recommend reading my article again.

I must be off.

RA786

Thanks Wakas.

You braught up a good point about the Sun and Moon. However, I think my view of Salat is still compatible with your view (to a certin degree).

recognition/acknowledgement for/to the sun and not for/to the moon and/but give recognition/acknowledgement to/for God...
Prostration (in prayer)/Recognition Acknowledgment

I interpret it like this

If The Polytheist Prostrates on the ground and (Mentally/Verbally) making a Glorification to the Sun and Moon as his God thanking them for his Sustinance.
This is Haraam. or Bad.

However If a Muslim/Submitter/Person who is in Submission to Allah Prostrates on the ground and (Mentally/Verbally) makes a Glorification to ALLAH thankin Him for Sustinence... I think it is Good and Permissable.

Why what is the Difference.
Intention, meaning, and WHAT the person is Turning Towards.
IS the Muslim who is Prostrating on the Ground Still Compatible with Waka's Deffinition Given here Recognition/Acknowledgement? I think so.

When I go to a King and I Prostate to him on the ground, I am submitting myself to him. I am Glorifying him Symbolically and Physically While Mentally and Verbally Recognizing and Acknowledging that he is Superior to me and I thank him for the Sustinence He Gives.

I feel that this is a "Prostration to a King, or to a Moon, or the a SUN, or Star...etc... They are all things that are NOT ALLAH.
Therefore, ONLY prostrating to Allah is Acceptible.

Prostration is the placement of the body in a reverentially or submissively prone position.to cast (oneself) face down on the ground in humility, submission, or adoration. Prosstration is always Synominous with Humilty, Submit, Surrender, and Submission...(Similair synonyms of S-L-M, Islam, Salaam, Salim)

Prostartion is Internationally known for being a Symbol of Adoration worship and Respect since the begining of mankind and even in the Animal Kingdom. Physical Prostation is not only a Physical act as it requires some sort of Mental Thought of Inner Intention behind it.

Comming for a Polytheist Background.... I would have to Prostrate to Material Things and False dieties or False Authority Figures.
I would prostrate in a Similar way as the "Muslims" do except in my head and Words my Intention was focused on the Material False Authority Figure and NOT ALLAH.

However, Once I became Muslim I carried on my Prostration Proceedure, except this type ridding my mind of any type of Material Image or false Authrority.
For instance, Instead of having a picture of a White Jesus in my head or a Black King of Etheopia and instead of saying "Hail Sallasia" or "Dear Lord Jesus"

I would say Allah Akbar, Alhumdulilah, and have no picture of any Image but only focus on Allah and pray towards Allah (the Unseen).
I recognize my Prayer and Prostration does absolutley nothing to benifit Him rather, it is the means both Physically and Spiritually in which I Acknowledge, Recognize, Surrender, Submit, Ador, worship, and Contact Allah so that I can manifest Humbleness within my soul and life.

I feel that Prostation is the means for many people to go about this "Recognition/Acknowledgment" Process. (which by the way requires wudu/cleanliness.)

I still feel the it is Vauge Enough to fit my view while still being synominous with Wakas view of Recognition and Acknowledgement.

ths

Peace Wakas,

So I went through one of the discussions that you posted, which was excellent
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15172.75

The debate goes through several iterations, but it then moves onto 17109, to the infamous yakhirruuna liladhqaani passage that has baffled so many
Ayman's argument (to the best of my memory, also note that I'm summarizing a great deal of text) is that people who argue that it is a physical sujood ignore the 'to the chins' aspect, and prostrate to their faces, and that if they were truly interested in following the Quran, they would prostrate to their chins! However, he takes the view that sujood is more likely hearing and obeying.

Then others, such as Raj-ah and Genteel, and Leoxyz argue that is a physical sujood.

And lastly, Samia argues that it is a physical sujood, but that yakhirruuna liladhqaani is meant as a phrase, such as "they are in up to their necks"

Just a disclaimer
We are all in agreement, that the most important aspect of prayer is the mental part, and praying with khushoo3. We are just trying to ascertain the true nature of the commandments, and whether or not a physical prostration is intended to go along with the mental focus during prayer.

So onto my arguments

Why use words such as bow and prostrate, that have physical connotations, if the true meaning is mental?
If the true meaning is to 'hear and obey', then why would God cause such confusion by not using more obvious words for hearing and obeying?
If the true meaning is to make a mental bond, then why would God use words with such physical inference?

2226
Behold! We gave the site, to Abraham, of the (Sacred) House, (saying) "Associate not anything (in worship) with Me; and sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or stand up, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).

a&#8234
This ayah is entirely physical. If prostration is not physical, then we must also find alternate meanings for bowing (rukka3i), standing (qaa2imeen), compassing round (6aa2ifeen)

i) If we are to find alternate meanings for all these aspects, then why on earth would God choose 4 words, ALL with physical connotations??
The whole thing is getting absurd.

b)

1003 Ra-Kaf-Ayn

bowed, bent, incline, humility, humble yourself, lower the head.
7748
243, 343, 2277, 7748
243, 2125, 343, 555, 9112, 2226, 3824, 4829
LL, V3, p313,314

Those who spend the night in adoration of their Lord prostrate and standing; 2564

Prostrating and standing (qiyaamaa)
Again, 2 physical words, only 1 is supposed to have a physical meaning.
Why?

Or is he who is obedient in the watches of the night, bowing himself and standing, he being afraid of the world to come and hoping for the mercy of his Lord . . ? Say 'Are they equal -- those who know and those who know not?' Only men possessed of minds remember. 399

Saajidan wa qaa2iman
Prostrating and Standing
One is mental and the other physical?

Those were some of the prophets on whom Allah did bestow His Grace,- of the posterity of Adam, and of those who We carried (in the Ark) with Noah, and of the posterity of Abraham and Israel of those whom We guided and chose. Whenever the Signs of (Allah) Most Gracious were rehearsed to them, they would fall down in prostrate adoration and in tears. 1958

Kharroo sujjadan wa bakiyyan

Kharroo according to Lane's Lexicon has 2 primary meanings

to murmur, rumble, or gurgle
to fall down. kharra l-binaa2u The building fell down
kharra lillaahi saajidan He fell down prostrating himself to God
Or Kharra signifies He, or it, fell from a high to a low place
Faka2annamaa kharra min alsamaa2i .
And kharoo li2idhqaanihim inf. n. khuroor (A 3asafat reehu fakharrat al2ashjaaru lil2idhqaan .(A.)
You say also kharra (TA,) inf. n. kharru (K,) meaning He died (K,TA because a man, when he dies, falls down. (TA.) In the Kur xxxiv. 13, it may mean He died, or he fell down. (TA.)__Also (kharra) He stumbled after going right. (TA.) __And kharrat kha6aayaah His sins fell ; went away ; or departed. (TA, from a trad.) __And kharra min al jibaali, inf. n. khuruur, He, (a man,) and it, (a stone, &c.,) rolled down from the mountain. (TA.) __And Al2a3raabu yukhirruuna min al bawaadee ila al-quraa The Arabs of the desert came down, or descend, from the deserts to the towns or villages. (A.)

Aren't there better words for mental connection?
Are there no better words for hearing and obeying? (As Ayman suggests) or making a bond?
Which words would convey those meanings? Surely not these ones, that require such stretches and research, when the Quran is so clear in everything else.

Conclusion

If we are to take the most obvious meanings from the Quran, then the most obvious meanings convey a physical connotation.
It is absurd to think that God wants us to do all these mental non-ritualistic aspects, and for Him to use physical words one after the other.
When everything in the Quran is so clear, then why make this intentionally confusing?

Lastly, I believe that 19;58 IS the key to solve this puzzle that seems to have been a thorn in the side of free-minds since 2003!
Those were some of the prophets on whom Allah did bestow His Grace?Whenever the Signs of God the Most Gracious were rehearsed to them, they would fall down in prostrate adoration and in tears.
And kharroo was shown to mean beyond a shadow of a doubt the action of falling. Lane's Lexicon shows us that kharroo is used in classical Arabic to unequivocally mean fall down. It even references the specific ayah!

I read in the other thread where kharra was briefly mentioned a counter argument (I think it was yours but aren't sure anymore), that kharroo indicates falling, so sujood becomes redundant as a physical maneuver. I think that view is completely wrong. There are plenty of ways to fall, and sujood is a way to define how they fell, to show that they didn't simply fall down crying, but they fell down crying, and in prostration.

Thus we can say with certainty that it is not coincidental that God chose 'to fall' with the word 'prostration', and to make that statement into a 'mental action' or a 'bond' or whatever, is really pushing the limits of common sense.
I'm not saying that there is no mental aspect, obviously there is, and it is important. But what I am saying is that to ignore the continuous use of physical verbs in the Quran in favour of a more obscure general meaning is not taking the most obvious answer.

And I'm now satisfied with this answer.

RA786

Thanks THS for that post....

man, i am really Un-organized with my posts... '(

You had your points in Numbers and Letter formant, bullets and conclusions...
I need to start making posts like that instead of Messy all of over the place Color coated posts... lol ;D

That "Prophets fell down in tears" was really interesting, i would like to explore that.

P.s. A tradtional friend from the Wakeupproject actually sent me a pdf format book of "What is Kushuroo and how to better it"
but I lost it..I need to ask him again, If i get it ill send it too you.

It does obviously have traditionalist shirk/undertones however if you can decipher and distinguish the good from the bad...it has alot of interesting and usefull information to utlize... (i wish i hadnt lost it! ( )

Wakas

peace ths,

And I'm now satisfied with this answer.

That is a shame because your above post was very poor. To prove my point allow me to refute your view of "kharr" meaning a physical fall in relation to SJD, read each link in the following post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598162.msg225018#msg225018

(a link I already referenced to you in this thread)

Please provide a rebuttal if possible. As I summarised in that thread

To sum it up the "fall to the chin" in sjd argument has been smashed completely, and the sjd=physical prostration argument has been critically damaged to the point where it cannot be considered likely and only a theoretical possibility in some occurrences. Similar to how any Arabic word in AQ can mean any of its Classical Arabic meanings in some occurrences, theoretically. In other words, no evidenced argument can be made other than this.

You will also see in that thread a fellow member (progressive1993) was adamant with his SJD view which was similar to yours, but after discussion concluded it was wrong in the end.

peace RA786,

I apologise for not replying fully earlier, as I was pressed for time.

Re 2238
The evidence is heavily weighted against "a middle prayer" from this verse. See past discussion, e.g.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.0

The view of SJD = physical prostration is a theoretical possibility, as I summarised in the thread above. I have no problem with it, unless a person says "this is from Quran", if so, then I have the right to request evidence. Simple.

Re 56
As far as I'm aware it means "when" not "if".

You, or maybe it was ths, asked about my view on "salat" as in how its done. See http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm

Quite simply, if God gives you a book and you believe in this book and says "uphold the bond", then there is no need for further explanation. The bond of the believers/mumineen is to God and His system, thus a regular/timed reading of His book is a perfect way to remember/understand and thus "uphold the bond". The explanation is self-contained and perfect in its simplicity and practicality. This is my understanding.

ths

Salaam Wakas

Well firstly, I appreciate the time you're putting into responding to us, given that you've taken part in these discussions in the past, but it's very difficult to know what exactly to rebut when you post hours and hours worth of reading. There are plenty of arguments in those pages, so I'll do my best to respond to the ones I feel are most deserving. And if I miss something, please forgive me and bring it to my attention, as I'm not omitting it on purpose.

Ok so here goes

No decent alternatives proposed.

The links you provided have post after post filled with arguments as to why kharroo lilidhqaani sujjadan is not a physical prostration.
But I can't seem to find any viable alternative, other than the inference that it is only an idiomatic expression conveying some kind of general/obscure meaning related to obeying, or following.

Lane's Lexicon's definition.

LL gives a clear, concise answer to this whole discussion, and I can't understand why it is being ignored.
I'll repost it again since it received no comment

to fall down. kharra l-binaa2u The building fell down
kharra lillaahi saajidan He fell down prostrating himself to God
Or Kharra signifies He, or it, fell from a high to a low place
Faka2annamaa kharra min alsamaa2i .
And kharoo li2idhqaanihim inf. n. khuroor (A) 3asafat reehu fakharrat al2ashjaaru lil2idhqaan .(A.)
You say also kharra (TA,) inf. n. kharru (K,) meaning He died (K,TA) because a man, when he dies, falls down. (TA.) In the Kur xxxiv. 13, it may mean He died, or he fell down. (TA.)__Also (kharra) He stumbled after going right. (TA.) __And kharrat kha6aayaah His sins fell ; went away ; or departed. (TA, from a trad.) __And kharra min al jibaali, inf. n. khuruur, He, (a man,) and it, (a stone, &c.,) rolled down from the mountain. (TA.) __And Al2a3raabu yukhirruuna min al bawaadee ila al-quraa The Arabs of the desert came down, or descend, from the deserts to the towns or villages. (A.)

Thus it is a known Classical Arabic saying 3asafat reehu fakharrat al2ashjaaru lil2idhqaan .

You mention in one of the posts that you stumbled on Imru-l-Qays' poetry mentioning mighty trees falling to the chin in a storm. (That may be where this definition has been derived from).
However, the trees fell - so why did you interpret it simply as an act of humbling, when the most obvious meaning, again, is the physical action of falling completely.

Our answer seems to be sitting right there. It is a known, accepted Arabic saying, meant to signify something crashing to the ground with surprising capitulation, or submittance.

Analysis of all passages mentioning kharra

The root word KH-R-R is used 12 times in AQ
I shall try to be as unbiased as possible, giving equal weight to each possibility.

17109 And they fall down upon their faces (yukhirruuna lilidhqaani) weeping; and it increases them in humility.'

Physical 80%
Mental 20%

2573 And those who, when they are reminded of the revelations of their Lord, fall not deaf and blind thereat.

Physical 10%
Mental 90%

1990 At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,

Physical 100%
Mental 0%

17107 Say 'Believe in it, or believe not; those who were given the knowledge before it when it is recited to them, fall down upon their faces prostrating (yukhirruuna lilidhqaani sujjadan),

Physical 80%
Mental 20%

3215 Only those believe in Our signs who, when they are reminded of them, fall down prostrate (kharruu sujjadan) and proclaim the praise of their Lord, not waxing proud.

Physical 50%
Mental 50%

1626 Those that were before them contrived; then God came upon their building from the foundations, and the roof fell down on them from over them, and the chastisement came upon them from whence they were not aware.

Physical 100%
Mental 0%

2231 Being true in faith to Allah, and never assigning partners to Him if anyone assigns partners to Allah, is as if he had fallen from heaven and been snatched up by birds, or the wind had swooped (like a bird on its prey) and thrown him into a far-distant place.

Physical 100%
Mental 0%

1958 These are they whom God has blessed among the Prophets of the seed of Adam, and of those We bore with Noah, and of the seed of Abraham and Israel, and of those We guided and chose. When the signs of the All-merciful were recited to them, they fell down prostrate, weeping. (kharruu sujjadan wa bakiyyaa)

Physical 50%
Mental 50%

12100 And he lifted his father and mother upon the throne; and the others fell down prostrate before him. (kharruu lahu sujjadan) 'See, father,' he said, 'this is the interpretation of my vision of long ago; my Lord has made it true. He was good to me when He brought me forth from the prison, and again when He brought you out of the desert, after that Satan set at variance me and my brethren. My Lord is gentle to what He will; He is the All-knowing, the All-wise.

Physical 25%
Mental 75%

3824 Said he, 'Assuredly he has wronged thee in asking for thy ewe in addition to his sheep; and indeed many intermixers do injury one against the other, save those who believe, and do deeds of righteousness -- and how few they are!' And David thought that We had only tried him; therefore he sought forgiveness of his Lord, and he fell down, bowing, and he repented. (kharra raaki3an wa2anaaba)

Physical 90%
Mental 10%

3414 Then, when We decreed (Solomon's) death, nothing showed them his death except a little worm of the earth, which kept (slowly) gnawing away at his staff so when he fell down, the Jinns saw plainly that if they had known the unseen, they would not have tarried in the humiliating Penalty (of their Task)

Physical 100% -- Physical here meaning death, as per Lane's Lexicon, see above.
Mental 0%

7143 And when Moses came to Our appointed time and his Lord spoke with him, he said, 'Oh my Lord, show me, that I may behold Thee!' Said He, 'Thou shalt not see Me; but behold the mountain -- if it stays fast in its place, then thou shalt see Me.' And when his Lord revealed Him to the mountain He made it crumble to dust; and Moses fell down swooning. (kharra muusaa sa3iqan) So when he awoke, he said, 'Glory be to Thee! I repent to Thee; I am the first of the believers.'

Physical 90% -- Due to addition of "when he awoke"
Mental 10%

So the finally probability of kharra from these passages is

Physical 72.9
Mental 27.1

You make several mentions of verse 124 where Yusuf tells his father that he saw 11 stars and the sun and the moon prostrate to him.
This, along with 12100, where his parents and brothers are said to prostrate to him are considered to be the undoing of the word kharra meaning a physical action.

But,
according to tafsir (and the Quran itself) the 11 stars represent his brothers, and the sun and the moon represent his parents.
They might be prostrating themselves to him since he is in a position of great power, and we know for a fact that the ancient Egyptians prayed, or showed respect in this way.
Therefore, it is not implausible whatsoever to believe that he attained the position of grand vizier or regent or something like that, and the people were obligated to prostrate to him, which his family then did along with everyone else.

Conclusion

We can safely say that kharra means physically falling to the ground.
We also know that it is an Arabic saying that when something kharra lilidhqaani, it means that it fell to the ground. (3asafat reehu fakharrat al2ashjaaru lil2idhqaan )

So I still maintain, that despite the (considerable) evidence put forth in your links, sujood is a physical (and mental) action due to
a) it's repeated usage along with kharra
b) the illogicality of having so many other words with physical connotations, and then sujood, which can hold a physical connotation, meaning something entirely mental
c) the illogicality of having to then translate standing, revolving, and many other words with obvious physical meanings to mental ones, simply to suit the proposed hypothesis that sujood is a purely mental act.

zulu12

Dear ths

I really do take my hat off to you buddy. You have got the utmost patience to be arguing with some people concerning the concept of prostration. If it was ever something non physical and just a figure of speech or better still, a packet of cream crackers because that is the only thing left to say, then how can anyone explain the following ayat?

4829 Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.

What marks on the faces is the Quran talking about? Is this some sort of secret code that only the Illuminati can see or something? No. It is plain and clear.

I have never ever in my life seen anyone with marks on their faces purely by doing mental arithmetic, mental prayers, mental revision or anything mental as a matter of fact. What marks do you see on the face of Psychiatrists? They do every mental don't they?

The only people I have seen with marks on their faces/foreheads are Muslims who have been physically prostrating and touching their foreheads on the ground. This is evident all over the world. I have seen this from China, right across the Middle East, Europe, Africa, USA and Latin America. I guarantee you one thing. No mattter where you go in the world, you will see Muslims with marks on their faces (foreheads) due to physical sujood.

Brother, I originallly came on here thinking that I may have something in common with the PM's, but all I can say is that they have well and truly 'lost the plot'. The conjecture, confusion, made up stories, interpretations, this meaning, that meaning, utter nonsense and contempt for the majority of Muslims who don't see things their way, just takes the biscuit.

In another post, I made a comment which I will make again here and expand a little further because I think it is relevant with the PM's logic of thought and reasoning. The only thing left for them to translate is the full stop. Yes, the full stop (.) They will give you a meaning on the lines of 'well according to the Lanes Lexicon's definition and the online Arabic to English translation which is not corrupted by the traditionalists, the full stop means a physical act of worship. The root word of this full stop is derived from blah blah bah which came into existence just after the Ice Age and is a noun and a verb combined, which means that it can be used to describe the physical act of prayer. Because no other word can describe prayer better than the full stop, it is in it's purest form and has never been hijacked. Prayer is really all in the mind. As long as you know it is in the mind and you don't worship God, you will be alright by fully accepting the full stop as part of your daily alone time with God'.

I hope you find the answers you are looking for, but I very much doubt they will be at this Forum. The positive thing I can say for myself whilst being here is that, I realised that the way I was taught was never wrong in the first place. A few minor changes here and there which I had already enforced years ago, but on the whole, it was always correct.

Prayer, Saum, Zakat, Hajj - the whole lot.

Peace

Wakas

peace ths,

Firstly, I did not provide a link with "hours and hours" of reading. My link pointed to a post which referred to very specific posts, not entire threads! I recommend re-evaluating your study method.

Re 1)
"khrr" can mean "to fall completely" i.e. maximum/significant, do something to the utmost, and is used this way in AQ. FACT, e.g. see the verse "fall on them (signs) deaf and blind".

Re 2)
Lane is an excellent resource, however, like any dictionary, it is not perfect and should not be used without the application of reasoning/logic. Lane lists a variety of meanings which is fine, but he interestingly states dh-q-n means "chin" then removes this meaning and inserts ground instead when it comes to a tree. Professor Mustansir Mir (who is known for his linguistic skills) takes it as an idiom as I have already mentioned. AQ used th-q-n to mean "chin". But even if we took it to mean "ground" my point still remains. What point you may ask?
Exactly. The most interesting thing about your reply was you completely ignored my strongest point.

Re 3)
Instead you set about proving khrr means a physical fall when unrelated to SJD. Did I say any different? No. You created a strawman logical fallacy, yet use terms such as "illogicality". Not to mention you provided subjective and effectively useless % weightings.

Re 5) (you missed out 4)
Yes, theoretically, they could have physically prostrated to/for Joseph. However, that implies Joseph allowed it and thus possibly violated the principles of 4137, 2725 and perhaps others. Hence translators/commentators not opting for this option. But in any case, it is moot, because this understanding is refuted by cross-reference as blatantly mentioned in the post I referred to
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598350.msg202325#msg202325

Allow me to quote it for you

Here, the article uses the correlation between 124 and 12100 to imply it does mean "prostration", BUT using the same logic, what about the correlation between the sjd and fall/khrr sjd (i.e. the exact same comparison)? If you are equating them in 124 and 12100, then if you take prostration for one, you should take prostration for the other, otherwise it will be logically inconsistant and/or a contradiction in one's views. Thus, the implication is, whenever one hears AQ, they should physically prostrate if one holds the same view as the article on this point.
Unless, it can be explained away of course.

Of course, with the recent evidence on 4102, we know "fall sjd" can only be idiomatic / non-physical, but for those with a sjd/prostration understanding, they are between a rock and a hard place, as the idiomatic expression goes.

Please note I will not respond any further unless new points are brought up. Most of my points I am just repeating what I already referred you to or can be studied using the same tools I use www.StudyQuran.org

"The perfect way is only difficult for those who pick and choose. Do not like, do not dislike; all will then be clear. Make a hairbreadth difference and heaven and earth are set apart; if you want the truth to stand clear before you, never be for or against. The struggle between "for" and "against" is the mind's worst disease."

Wakas

ra786, zulu, ths, all,

You may find the following thread very interesting
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596813.0

As a side note, I also received several personal messages of endorsement of the above observation, even though it is not my own.

ayman

Peace Zulu,

I really do take my hat off to you buddy. You have got the utmost patience to be arguing with some people concerning the concept of prostration. If it was ever something non physical and just a figure of speech or better still, a packet of cream crackers because that is the only thing left to say, then how can anyone explain the following ayat?

4829 Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.

What marks on the faces is the Quran talking about? Is this some sort of secret code that only the Illuminati can see or something? No. It is plain and clear.

I have never ever in my life seen anyone with marks on their faces purely by doing mental arithmetic, mental prayers, mental revision or anything mental as a matter of fact. What marks do you see on the face of Psychiatrists? They do every mental don't they?

The only people I have seen with marks on their faces/foreheads are Muslims who have been physically prostrating and touching their foreheads on the ground. This is evident all over the world. I have seen this from China, right across the Middle East, Europe, Africa, USA and Latin America. I guarantee you one thing. No mattter where you go in the world, you will see Muslims with marks on their faces (foreheads) due to physical sujood.

This is typical superficial Sunni irational thinking obssessed with physical marks, which mean nothing except in their imagination. This guy has a physical mark on his forehead too from physically prostrating his forehead

http//img209.imageshack.us/img209/1758/56766902.jpg

According to your ridiculous logic, he is a "muslim"!

Brother, I originallly came on here thinking that I may have something in common with the PM's, but all I can say is that they have well and truly 'lost the plot'. The conjecture, confusion, made up stories, interpretations, this meaning, that meaning, utter nonsense and contempt for the majority of Muslims who don't see things their way, just takes the biscuit.

You are right. You have more in common with those guys

http//img689.imageshack.us/img689/2799/hindupilgrims01.jpg

You even wear the same uniform on your pagan pilgrimage!

If you really think that prostration is physical then you would need to prostrate to the chin and not the forehead as clearly indicated in 17107 (if you take it physically). But you are not interested in obeying the god. You are intrested in blindly following your forefathers. In fact, the only time the forehead is mentioned is in CONTRAST to prostration

096.015-19
SHAKIR
Nay! if he desist not, We would certainly smite his forehead,
A lying, sinful forehead.
Then let him summon his council,
We too would summon the braves of the army.
Nay! obey him not, and make obeisance and draw nigh (to Allah).

Peace,

Ayman

abdalquran

I agree that sajda is not physically praying but I like physical praying a lot. I do it once a week.

Ayman, so what if he has something in common with the guys in the last picture? Whats wrong with the guys in the last picture?