If Allah wants things to be easy for us, why so much confusion about salat?

[zulu12]

Dear Ayman

Please read and digest again

4829 Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration.

Bow and Prostrate to who? Allah SWT. Not to a statue and not some paint markings on the face. As RA786 correctly stated, prostrating to Allah SWT is not the same as prostrating to some idol! The above ayat is defining Muslims who prostrate to Allah SWT and not Hindus or Buddhists who prostrate to anything and everything.

Additional to this, according to your logic, Muslims have now also borrowed 'dress codes' from the Hindu faith as well. Like I said before, the stories and nonsense that you guys come up with belong in Hollywood. You guys are seriously in the wrong profession. Scriptwriting is where you need to be. Maybe they can back you up and turn your fantasies into a blockbuster.

Furthermore, you also claim that the prostration should be on the chin. Why don't you just say prostration should be on the left ear as well, followed by the right ear, then finish off with a head stand with legs straight, feet together and toes pointing perfectly in the air, which will in turn get you a perfect score of 10!

According to you dudes

Prayer is wrong
Fasting is wrong
Zakat is wrong
Pilgrimage is wrong

Not content with this, dress code is wrong, appearances are wrong, walking is wrong, talking is wrong, eating is wrong, washing is wrong, education is wrong, conducting business is wrong, marriage is wrong, having children is wrong and finally to top it all off, living and breathing is wrong. The only thing I await for from the likes of you, is statements that when Muslims die, their death is wrong because it has been corrupted using pagan rituals therefore they die the wrong way.

You guys have well and truly lost the plot.

Peace

[ths]

Salaam,

Firstly, thank you zulu for the kind words.

Now, onto the arguments.

Re 1)

a) Adding "FACT" to statements you've just made doesn't make them any more factual, just to let you know.
Also, I think you are agreeing with me here, so I don't know why you're adding the obnoxious "FACT" to it.

b) You're point #1 does not correspond with what I was talking about in my point #1. I was talking about no one making any proper proposals for translation and exegesis of "kharruu lil2adhqaani sujjadan", and you are talking about khrr, the verb that I address later.

c) Most of the verses in the Quran mentioning khrr are CLEARLY physical. FACT.
You mention 1 verse (fall on them deaf and blind) to wipe away the physical meaning from all the other verses.
It is more logical to apply the meaning of the majority of the other verses to this 1 verse.
See this verse for example

1626 Those that were before them contrived; then God came upon their building from the foundations, and the roof fell down on them from over them, and the chastisement came upon them from whence they were not aware.

The roof FELL on them. We know this because the verse mentions the word "building", and "roof".

So let us stop bickering about this, and agree that the Quran without a doubt applies a physical meaning to khrr.

Re 2)

a) dhaqn has multiple meanings in Arabic. It can mean face, or beard, as well as chin. In fact In Egypt today dhaqn is used to mean beard. (pronounced da2n in Egypt)

And Lane gives lots of meanings to dhaqn, as you said, depending on the context, including the back of the neck, throat, windpipe, and collar-bone, amongst others.

b)
Lane lists a variety of meanings which is fine, but he interestingly states dh-q-n means "chin" then removes this meaning and inserts ground instead when it comes to a tree.

Uhh?where does he do that?
Lane does NOT substitute ground for dhaqn when it comes to a tree.
You are utterly oversimplifying the phraseology he is trying to express.

Lane uses "kharruu lilidhqaani" to mean to fall completely/ to fall utterly/ to fall with surprising ease/ to fall with surprising submission.
He does not explicitly state this, but that's because it is obvious from his definitions. This is from Lane's Lexicon

You say also, kharruu li2adhqaanihim and hence,] 3asafat ree7u fakharrat al2ashjaaru lil2adhqaani
(A in art. Kharra and habbat alree7u fakabbat alshajara 3alaa adhqaanihaa and, of a stone, kabbahu-l-sailu lidhaqnihi The torrent overturned it.

You see above that Lane translates kharruu li2adhqaanihim similarly for all 3 cases people, trees, and stones.
The people fall to the ground
The trees fall to the ground
The stone is overturned

The point here is not to translate each word to create a meaning for 'dhaqn' in each case.
Instead you have to take it as a saying, or phrase the people dropped to the ground absolutely, the trees crashed to the ground, and the stone flipped as the torrent hit it.
Dhaqn is a linguistic way of adding stress to the action of falling. To emphasise that it wasn't just any old fall, but a mighty fall.

So if you want to talk to me about logic, then that is plainly logical. Much more so than claiming it is an idiomatic expression.
It is the equivalent of the English saying Wait on them hand and foot.
It doesn't mean I'm waiting on my limbs for someone. It simply adds stress to the expression I'm waiting.

c) Ok so on to your main point.

This is a good argument. But you're twisting the hierarchy of the arguments to suit a hypothesis you've already accepted.

Re 1)
There is no clear example of anyone doing this physically in AQ when hearing God's words.

This point doesn't really make sense, since you take sujood to be something that isn't physical. So how can you then state that there is no example of anyone doing it physically?

kharruu lil2adhqaani sujjadan is only used twice in the Quran, And one of the times it is used, is to show that people should do it when hearing God's words. (17107)

And there are a few verses saying that people should do sujood when hearing God's words
8421 And when the Qur'an is read to them, they fall not prostrate,
1958 When the signs of the All-merciful were recited to them, they fell down prostrate, weeping. (Kharruu sujjadan)
3215 Only those believe in Our signs who, when they are reminded of them, fall down prostrate and proclaim the praise of their Lord (kharruu sujjadan)

An interesting point to note is that in all the times sujjadan appears in the Quran, it appears with kharruu only when mentioning sujood upon hearing the Quran, and when Josephs family kharruu sujjadan to him.
I was ready to change my opinion entirely, but then I realized 8421 has sujood upon hearing the Quran - without kharruu.

So Sujood is overwhelmingly used in concordance with prayer, as well as rukoo3 once or twice, and when God commands it.
According to 8421 it is also done when hearing the Quran.
If it wasn't for 8421, kharruu sujjadan would have an alternate meaning separate from prayer.

So
kharruu sujjadan when hearing Quran
do sujood when hearing Quran
kharruu sujjadan was done to Joseph

Re 2)

Not really?as with everything else, common sense applies.

This is a straw man fallacy. The Quran never says "WHENEVER you hear the Quran, do sujood"
It says, "When you hear the Quran, do sujood"
If we apply common sense, we can say that do sujood when in the mosque or in your home
but not when your driving your car and you hear quran on the radio
or when you're in a store and the clerk is listening to the quran.

Also,
1958 says, "when the signs of the all-merciful are recited to them, they fell down prostrate, weeping"
By your logic, we would have to weep every time we hear the quran - obviously not, because common sense applies.

Or are we now going to find a mental inference for weeping as well?

Re 3)

This is a non-sequitur. You are working on a false premise.

4102 says, "and if they have prostrated, let them be behind you" - more literal
or
"when they finish their prostrations, let them go to your rear" - more aligned with the meaning

You can't tell from that sentence whether it means 1 prostration or many. "when they have prostrated" can mean several prostrations even in English.

So that is a very weak premise to be working on.

Furthermore, have you ever heard of 'sajdat telawa' and 'sajdat shukr'?
I don't know where these habits got their origins from, but when someone prostrates when hearing the Quran it is called a Sajdat Telawa. It is a different type of sajda from the sajda done during prayer, as is the Sajdat Shukr.

Thus, we can safely prove

Really?
I think points 2 and 3 are pretty poor.

Re 3)

No, I didn't set about proving khrr means physical fall. I set about proving that ALL mentions of khrr, including kharruu lilidhqaan mean to fall physically - based on the obvious meaning of the majority of the verses. I was gathering all the information together to have a better look at it.

You created a strawman logical fallacy, yet use terms such as "illogicality".

a) It is not a strawman fallacy because I wasn't directing it at your argument, I was doing it for my own and everyone else's benefit. You should recheck your understanding of strawman fallacies. Note that up till now I've been trying to mention everyone's arguments, in order of which I think are best, I wasn't specifically targeting your arguments. I've been reading the entire threads of the links you've posted, not just the individual posts. This is my own investigation where I'm trying to find the truth.

b) "illogicality" is a real word. Check your dictionary.

Not to mention you provided subjective and effectively useless % weightings.

Hahaha that's an interesting comment coming from you considering the inspiration for the probabilities came from your own article http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/DGE_science_koran_quran.htm

1 in 1 billion? Well that's just accurate maths right there isn't it

Re 5)

This is a good point.
But God orders people to perform sujood on others, in 7161, 258,
and God orders Iblis to perform sujood to Adam and mentions it repeatedly in the Quran, which also causes the same contradiction you speak of, and has been a problem in exegesis for centuries. If one is supposed to do sujood to no one but God, then why would God ask Iblis to make sujood on Adam? And why would God ask people to enter a village whilst in sujood as per 7161 and 258?

That's another discussion I think.

As to your quoted point, I don't really understand it?which may be entirely due to the fact that I worked for 13 hours before coming home to type this up?

Conclusion

1. khrr means to physically fall. This is doubtless. You provide 1 verse "fall on them deaf and blind" and from that imply that khrr means 'to the maximum/significant'. It does mean that, but it means it along with physical falling.
   An explanation of that verse could be that God is admonishing people who simply follow the movements of sujood and have no khushoo3. Ie. They are falling to the ground deaf and blind - not thinking about God at all.

What I'm saying is that in nearly ALL the other 11 uses of khrr in the quran, it is without a doubt used in a physical sense
so it makes more sense to apply the meaning of all the other verses to that one,
than apply the meaning from that one to all the other verses.

2. Kharruu lilidhqaani is an Arabic saying denoting 'falling swiftly' or 'crashing down'. It is used to add stress to 'kharruu'
   No one has provided me with a logical explanation yet for ignoring this fact.

3. 4829 says "thou wilt SEE them bowing and prostrating"
   How exactly are we supposed to see each other bowing and prostrating is making sujood is a mental thing only?

4. Sujjadan is used alongside plenty of words, such as qaa2iman, rukka3an, bakiyyan...
   Isn't it logical to assume that since all the other words are physical, the we should take sujood's more apparent meaning?
   Don't you think it is illogical that all these other physical aspects are now being turned into mental ones? So God knowingly used these words, despite meaning nothing physical? Why? Was he just messing with our heads?
   Obviously not.

@Ayman,

I don't think you read my response to kharruu lilidhqaan, so please check it out above and in previous posts

[Wilson]

Peace

What marks on the faces is the Quran talking about? Is this some sort of secret code that only the Illuminati can see or something? No. It is plain and clear.

The only people I have seen with marks on their faces/foreheads are Muslims who have been physically prostrating and touching their foreheads on the ground. This is evident all over the world. I have seen this from China, right across the Middle East, Europe, Africa, USA and Latin America. I guarantee you one thing. No mattter where you go in the world, you will see Muslims with marks on their faces (foreheads) due to physical sujood.

Most of those with physical marks on their foreheads through prostrating, show off with it. Many even push their heads harder to the floor while praying to make it more visible. And this is normal, because who cares about superficial looks? Yes, you got it right! They're the hypocrites. So is 4829 talking about the 'munafiqeen'?

Prostrating to a Statue of Buddah is Different from Prostrating to Allah.
Prostrating to a Statue of a Snake with wings is Different from prostrating to a black box called the Kaba or the Rock at Temple Mount Dome Rock.

To all those who believe in the traditional pilgrimage and don't believe they have anything in common with the men in the pictures. You have more in common with them than you know, if only you would care to open your eyes.

[zulu12]

Dear Abdelilah

Additional to what I said concerning the absolute rubbish that comes out of some people concerning their interpretation of the Quran and Muslims, you now also start interpretating their minds and motives regarding prostration. 'Many even push their heads harder to the floor while praying to make it more visible'. Buddy, it will be a lot easier to come clean and just say all Muslims should be removed from the face of the earth, rather than try to dissect the Quran with your warped interpretations and attacks on their Freedom of Choice.

So in your world, in order for any Muslim to have a mark on their forehead in relation to the ayat in question, they must push harder on the floor with their forehead, otherwise they cannot get the mark? So in reality, Allah SWT was wrong in revealing the ayat because no Muslim has a mark on their forehead due to prostration unless it is forced in order to relate to the ayat? Dude...................Please.

There is deviant and then there is you guys. I'm sure even a shrink would be hard pressed to figure out what you guys are thinking, saying and what your REAL motive is!

Peace

[RA786]

Peace

Most of those with physical marks on their foreheads through prostrating, show off with it. Many even push their heads harder to the floor while praying to make it more visible. And this is normal, because who cares about superficial looks? Yes, you got it right! They're the hypocrites. So is 4829 talking about the 'munafiqeen'?

To all those who believe in the traditional pilgrimage and don't believe they have anything in common with the men in the pictures. You have more in common with them than you know, if only you would care to open your eyes.

Your right, and also to be more correct, Anyone who memorizes the Quran or Recites it in a beautiful tone of voice is therefore a hypcrate too. Because they are Superficial egotistical creatures who wish to Show off their Memorizing and Singing talents. Therefore lets not Be like those who recite ONLY to be HEARD of Men.

Also, There is ALOT in common with Traditionalists and hindu/buddhists, yet...there are differences.

You see, when a Hindu does Pilgrimage and a Ritual He may say "Oh Shiva and Genesh, O please give me _____ and Help me to ______"

and Im sure there are those who say "Oh satan....please ________"

or those who pray to buddah and place an Apple on a Platter in front of his statue.

However, you are still looking at this with an Ignorant Eye.

A Muslim who does Hajj does NOT say "oh Lord Kabaah, I pray to you, I submit to you oh Kaba!"
a Muslim also doesnt say "Oh Black Stone, Summon me to the highest ranks and forgive me!".

so there is alot of differences...

What you will see at Hajj is a Tradtional-Quranist who may do Hajj (NOT KISS THE BLACK STONE" but will say instead "LA illaha Illalah Wadahula Shareekalah!" and repeat it 7 times.

(translation I bear witness there is no god but Allah, and Allah has no Partners."

So "REALLY" How Pegan is that? How Hypocritically polythestic satanistic is that?

I am sorry brother, but I dont consiter that Pegan.

Circling around the Kaba 7 times and prostrating towards it may be (incorrectly attributed to Islam)
But it certanly is not Pegan...since you are ONLY saying Laillaha illala wadahulashareekalah.
SO how satanic can it really be? ^

[Wakas]

peace ths,

Before I begin, from a previous post

I read in the other thread where kharra was briefly mentioned a counter argument (I think it was yours but aren't sure anymore), that kharroo indicates falling, so sujood becomes redundant as a physical maneuver. I think that view is completely wrong. There are plenty of ways to fall, and sujood is a way to define how they fell, to show that they didn't simply fall down crying, but they fell down crying, and in prostration.

You misread. It is "khrr" is redundant because one cannot prostrate without falling first. I guess your only recourse is to say we are meant to do an abrupt or violent fall when we prostrate. ;D

no one making any proper proposals for translation and exegesis of "kharruu lil2adhqaani sujjadan"

It seems you cannot read properly. See Mustansir Mir. If "fall to the chin" is an idiomatic expression, then it would be "fall to the chin acknowledging/recognising" (i.e. acknowledge completely / to the utmost). Simple.

You mention 1 verse (fall on them deaf and blind) to wipe away the physical meaning from all the other verses.

No, again you misread. I said (see bold) "khrr" can mean "to fall completely" i.e. maximum/significant, do something to the utmost, and is used this way in AQ. FACT, e.g. see the verse "fall on them (signs) deaf and blind".

So let us stop bickering about this, and agree that the Quran without a doubt applies a physical meaning to khrr.

Did I say otherwise? Again, you cannot read properly.

Lane lists a variety of meanings which is fine, but he interestingly states dh-q-n means "chin" then removes this meaning and inserts ground instead when it comes to a tree.

Uhh?where does he do that?

You say also, kharruu li2adhqaanihim and hence,] 3asafat ree7u fakharrat al2ashjaaru lil2adhqaani

It seems you cannot read properly. dhqn means chin primarily, and also in AQ. FACT.
See bold above, Lane correctly states "chin" but inserts "ground" in his 1st rendering, then in his 2nd rendering since it applies to trees and everyone knows trees have no chin, he eliminates it and inserts "ground" instead. Lane is clearly giving us the idiomatic meaning, but what he doesn't explicitly state, which Mustansir Mir does is that the phrase "fall to the chin" is the literal rendering but it is an idiomatic expression and can be applied to trees if one understands the idiom.

Do trees have chins yes or no?

Amusingly you state

So if you want to talk to me about logic, then that is plainly logical. Much more so than claiming it is an idiomatic expression.

Then say

It is the equivalent of the English saying Wait on them hand and foot.

Which is of course an idiom! You contradict yourself. See http//idioms.thefreedictionary.com/wait+on+hand+and+foot

It is clear you are confused as to what an idiom is, as you state things like

Dhaqn is a linguistic way of adding stress to the action of falling. To emphasise that it wasn't just any old fall, but a mighty fall.

Please show the above to any Arabic speaker, let us know what they say.
Amusingly, you imply the physical prostration we should do is not just any old fall but a mighty one. Perhaps you should consider promoting this translation and investing in a chain of kneepad shops in Muslim countries. ;D

This point doesn't really make sense, since you take sujood to be something that isn't physical.

Again, you cannot read properly. Allow me to quote myself, from this very thread

To summarise, from my studies, sjd is an actionable representation of "hearing and obeying" or "giving recognition/acknowledgement", whatever form it takes (unless being used idiomatically of course). If we may think outside the box for a moment have you ever observed a tree swaying in the direction the wind takes it in? This is my conceptual understanding of sjd. I believe this is akin to the example given in AQ to do with shadows and sjd . Of course, God knows best.

For sake of argument, let's say it does not make sense, where is your proving that the prophets/messengers did as AQ said to do? i.e. when you hear God's signs "fall to the chin prostrating" / "physically prostrate" (or however you interpret it).
You cannot provide any evidence because there is none. Simple.

So Sujood is overwhelmingly used in concordance with prayer, as well as rukoo3 once or twice, and when God commands it.

Really? News to me. Perhaps another one of your % weightings will work well here?

Not really?as with everything else, common sense applies.

This is a straw man fallacy. The Quran never says "WHENEVER you hear the Quran, do sujood"
It says, "When you hear the Quran, do sujood"
If we apply common sense, we can say that do sujood when in the mosque or in your home
but not when your driving your car and you hear quran on the radio
or when you're in a store and the clerk is listening to the quran.

Ahh, so we use our common sense to decide when we should apply it or not... so can we also apply that to other places where it says "And when you..."?

Also,
1958 says, "when the signs of the all-merciful are recited to them, they fell down prostrate, weeping"
By your logic, we would have to weep every time we hear the quran - obviously not, because common sense applies.

Again, you cannot read properly. 1958 is addressing a specific group of people who were no doubt highly responsive to God's message. Interestingly, if we use your "common sense" approach, those addressed in 1958 could pick and choose when to fall SJD and BKY... doesn't sound as impressive does it.

You can't tell from that sentence whether it means 1 prostration or many. "when they have prostrated" can mean several prostrations even in English.

4102 says "so/then when you have SJD", and for sake of argument let's say it can mean one or several, in your view, people can get up and walk off after one, no coherence whatsoever, and in wartime significant disarray, invalidating the very point of the verse. No thanks, that's not the logical/word precision par excellence of AQ that I'm used to.
Previously you implied the use of "common sense", thus perhaps you should ponder upon if we are meant to physically prostrate upon hearing God's Words in a mosque/home, then one would constantly be in this position in traditional prayer. What is your haphazard criteria? Oh, that's right "common sense", not AQ's sense.

It is not a strawman fallacy because I wasn't directing it at your argument.

Your post was addressed to me, hence my inference you were directing this part to me. Perhaps you should have been clearer.

Hahaha that's an interesting comment coming from you considering the inspiration for the probabilities came from your own article http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/DGE_science_koran_quran.htm

1 in 1 billion? Well that's just accurate maths right there isn't it

I'm glad I can inspire you, however it seems you averaged out the %, not calculated a final probability value. "1 in 1 billion" is not accurate or inaccurate, it depends entirely upon what the individual determines as valid/reasonable for them, thus true for them not others, as stated in the article. Your % weightings are irrelevant for everyone else, or at least, to me they are.

But God orders people to perform sujood on others, in 7161, 258,
and God orders Iblis to perform sujood to Adam and mentions it repeatedly in the Quran, which also causes the same contradiction you speak of, and has been a problem in exegesis for centuries. If one is supposed to do sujood to no one but God, then why would God ask Iblis to make sujood on Adam? And why would God ask people to enter a village whilst in sujood as per 7161 and 258?

This is probably the best example of your inability to read and bias. 7161 and 258 are nothing at all to do with "perform sujood on others". The very fact you say this shows your significant bias, it simply says "enter the gate doing/in SJD". As everyone can plainly see, not only is it not about performing SJD on others it completely disproves SJD=physical prostration, as no one can enter a gate prostrating unless scraping their head against the ground as they do so. Interestingly this is an example of movement, i.e. "enter the gate" for a person, yet SJD cannot mean physical prostration. Whereas my rendition fits like a glove "enter the gate acknowledging/recognising" or "enter the gate in acknowledgement/recognition".

Once again, you show your bias when you state

and God orders Iblis to perform sujood to Adam and mentions it repeatedly in the Quran, which also causes the same contradiction you speak of, and has been a problem in exegesis for centuries. If one is supposed to do sujood to no one but God, then why would God ask Iblis to make sujood on Adam?

There is a difference between requesting iblis (a particular controlling force that is arrogant/rejecting, has a superiority complex, ~ego) to perform an "actionable representation of "hearing and obeying" or "giving recognition/acknowledgement" to adam/mankind, and prostrating to him. In fact, I strongly recommend re-reading this parable.

As to your quoted point, I don't really understand it?which may be entirely due to the fact that I worked for 13 hours before coming home to type this up?

Yes, that does explain a lot. I recommend re-reading.

3. 4829 says "thou wilt SEE them bowing and prostrating"

I recommend reading the context, and applying logic and cross-referencing.

Initially, I intended not to reply, but you seem genuine in your approach, but it is very obvious you misread A LOT, and apply haphazard reasoning, which of course doesn't help when trying to understand something. Let me be clear for all to see

To summarise, from my studies, sjd is an actionable representation of "hearing and obeying" or "giving recognition/acknowledgement", whatever form it takes (unless being used idiomatically of course). If we may think outside the box for a moment have you ever observed a tree swaying in the direction the wind takes it in? This is my conceptual understanding of sjd. I believe this is akin to the example given in AQ to do with shadows and sjd . Of course, God knows best.

To sum it up the "fall to the chin" in sjd argument has been smashed completely, and the sjd=physical prostration argument has been critically damaged to the point where it cannot be considered likely and only a theoretical possibility in some occurrences. Similar to how any Arabic word in AQ can mean any of its Classical Arabic meanings in some occurrences, theoretically. In other words, no evidenced argument can be made other than this.

If you disagree feel free to take weeks, even months to compile the strongest and most comprehensive argument you possibly can for SJD meaning physical prostration from AQ, explaining away all these points etc and post the article.

Until then, each to their own.

[ths]

Hahaha Wakas you really are a master of inferring what you want, and then being arrogant about it.

You have zero courtesy, and have made this debate into an unpleasurable one through the use of ad hominems, one after the other.

You repeatedly accuse me of not knowing how to read properly. Cut it out. It's arrogant, and makes you look like an infant in a schoolyard.

But getting emotionally antagonized and thus verbally aggressive are typical signs of a weak mind - and poor debating skills.

I suggest you mature a little bit, and keep to the facts, ad hominems are weakening your arguments, not mine.

Also, I took my time to respond because I have a life and plenty of work, and cannot therefore be sitting in front of the internet all day waiting for your responses. Not wealthy in the personal life are we wakas?

But thanks for your concern, you've clearly been watching the clock waiting for my response

First of all,

Please show the above to any Arabic speaker, let us know what they say.

I AM an Arabic speaker. Are you? What is YOUR mother tongue?
Also, I showed that response to a friend, also fluent in Arabic, and 100% Arab, simply because his Arabic is better than mine.

There are two Arabic speakers for you, so please share with us your background, since you seem to be obsessed with it.

Secondly,

I admit I wasn't using idiomatic correctly. I was trying to express that kharruu lil2adhqaani is not entirely idiomatic if one still falls to the ground, which isn't correct, as an idiomatic expression is any statement where the meaning cannot be inferred from the literal order of words. So yes, my mistake, it IS an idiomatic expression. And that does not change the meanings I have described.

You misread. It is "khrr" is redundant because one cannot prostrate without falling first. I guess your only recourse is to say we are meant to do an abrupt or violent fall when we prostrate.

God says that we should do sujood when we are reminded of the Quran (8421)
He also says that we should kharruu sujjadan when we are reminded of the Quran.

I punch the man in the face.
I swung my body, punching the man in the face.

Simple Wakas, try to keep up.

If "fall to the chin" is an idiomatic expression, then it would be "fall to the chin acknowledging/recognizing" (i.e. acknowledge completely / to the utmost). Simple.

No.
YOU are making it mean "fall to the chin". It does not have to mean "fall to the chin acknowledging" - it may mean "fall down acknowledging"

We are provided with no evidence other than your stubborn insistence that chin MUST be taken literally in every case.

Lane correctly states "chin" but inserts "ground" in his 1st rendering, then in his 2nd rendering since it applies to trees and everyone knows trees have no chin, he eliminates it and inserts "ground" instead.

You accuse me of not being able to read, and then UTTERLY omit the most important part of Lane's definition (that I mentioned 3 times now). But that isn't surprising when you really want it to mean something.

Lane render dhaqn as chin.
Lane then renders dhaqn as ground in his 2nd rendering. So far so good.
Then you either purposely omit, or fail to read

"and, of a stone, kabbahu-l-sailu lidhaqnihi The torrent overturned it."

So in his 3rd rendering, he shows us that the word "chin" is not important in this idiomatic phrase.

Do trees have chins yes or no?

Hahaha, of course they don't' have chins, which supports my answer 100%
It tells us that the Arabic phrase "kharruu li2adhqaanihim" does not translate to"fall to the chin" in English. It translates to "they came crashing down". You are utterly lacking in language skills if you cannot comprehend this fact.

Lane is clearly giving us the idiomatic meaning, but what he doesn't explicitly state, which Mustansir Mir does is that the phrase "fall to the chin" is the literal rendering but it is an idiomatic expression and can be applied to trees if one understands the idiom.

In your haste to prove yourself correct, you've forgotten to make sense.

You are trying to disagree and agree with me at the same time.
The phrase "fall to the chin" can be applied to trees, it can also be applied to stones, human beings, buildings, and any other object that falls, or falls over.

You said it yourself, TREES HAVE NO CHINS, then why do you insist on translating chin differently each time?

And why do you ignore his 3rd rendering each time?
Is it because he DOESN'T TRANSLATE CHIN?

Stop running around, and address this point, which I've raised 3 times now.

Please show the above to any Arabic speaker, let us know what they say.

Well firstly, I'll ignore your weak sarcasm.

Secondly, I have a distant friend who is an expert in Arabic linguistics.
She used to run this blog http//arabicgems.wordpress.com/
She has a BA and an MA in Arabic linguistics, specializing in etymology
I've emailed her about this, and hopefully she can provide us with a response soon.

For sake of argument, let's say it does not make sense, where is your proving that the prophets/messengers did as AQ said to do? i.e. when you hear God's signs "fall to the chin prostrating" / "physically prostrate" (or however you interpret it).
You cannot provide any evidence because there is none. Simple.

You seem to have a problem understanding simple things, once you've stubbornly set your mind on something.
Let me ask you a question instead, does every commandment in the Quran need an example from an actual person?
Because God tells us to physically prostrate upon hearing His words in 8421, 1958, and 3215

8421 says to make sujood
1958 says kharruu sujjadan. Which means they 'fell whilst making sujood'
3215 also says kharruu sujjadan

This means that there are 2 references in the Quran where people physically fall at hearing the Quran.

Simple.

Really? News to me. Perhaps another one of your % weightings will work well here?

If I had made it 'probability of physical prostration = 1 to 73 million' would that have made you happy? You seem fond of such ridiculous 'maths' in your own articles.

Ahh, so we use our common sense to decide when we should apply it or not

Are you saying we should NOT use common sense when applying things from the Quran?
Because that's a really original position!
Let's throw away common sense altogether!

Again, you cannot read properly. 1958 is addressing a specific group of people who were no doubt highly responsive to God's message.
Interestingly, if we use your "common sense" approach, those addressed in 1958 could pick and choose when to fall SJD and BKY... doesn't sound as impressive does it.

You contradict yourself again.
You said that kharruu sujjadan cannot mean physical prostration because we have no examples to emulate from prophets/messengers.

So there is the example for you of prophets and messengers crying when hearing God's words.

So by your logic we can say that we should ALWAYS cry when hearing God's words. Why make the excuse that they were just "highly responsive" people? You said yourself "pick and choose when to fall sjd and bky"

If they can't use common sense to choose when to cry, then apparently they must cry each time they hear the Quran.

This means we have an example of Prophets/messengers using common sense, and thus it is ok for us to do as well.

"1 in 1 billion" is not accurate or inaccurate, it depends entirely upon what the individual determines as valid/reasonable for them, thus true for them not others, as stated in the article.

Oh it's not accurate NOR inaccurate is it?

Don't dance around like a headless chicken, my % weightings are EXACTLY the same thing as your probabilities. Your article is 'why I believe in God', mine was "why kharruu means to fall"
But you are incapable of not being biased, so therefore your ridiculous "1 in 1 billion" and "1 in ten thousand billion billion" are somehow validated, whilst mine are useless.

Please show your "1 in ten thousand billion billion" to anyone else on this forum to see if it's worth a damn.

What's the probability that you'll do it? (In what I individually determine to be valid of course) is 1 in 77 billion trillion!

This is probably the best example of your inability to read and bias. 7161 and 258 are nothing at all to do with "perform sujood on others".

I admire the way you make an argument, and then conveniently stop mentioning it again once it's been explained.
You said before that people could not have made sujood to Joseph because of verses where God says no one should do sujood to anyone but him.

I raised these verses to show that God instructed the angels to do sujood on Adam, and these people to do sujood whilst entering the village to show you that the contradiction already exists.
Your response?
To completely ignore these verses, and instead to argue a moot point.

No one ever stated that words cannot have different meanings depending on context - that is only your obsession. Is that what you're arguing? That words cannot hold multiple meanings in the Quran depending on context?

Whereas my rendition fits like a glove

When you make something vague enough, it will fit into anything.
In fact, according to your description, we are making sujood right now. I am "hearing and obeying' right now, and I'm also "acknowledging" right now as we speak.

In fact I was also "acknowledging a few minutes ago when I used the bathroom. I can acknowledge all day!

Your definition is meaningless Wakas, it's time you realised it.

To summarize

I think that your greatest weakness Wakas is a lack of knowledge of Arabic, which results in an 'any word can mean anything if i want it to' attitude.

You make one inference, and then you're forced into twisting things into meaning what you want them to, so as not to trouble your utopian vision of the Quran.

You provide absolutely ZERO logical argument against the phrase kharruu lil2adhqaani, but instead defer your opinion each time to an appeal to authority "mustansir mir says it"

[Wakas]

peace ths,

If you know Arabic, this just got interesting. For the record, I have almost zero knowledge of Arabic. Since 'the proof is in the tasting of the pudding', as the idiom goes, we will see if this is important or not.

Before I begin, just saying I use "ad hominens" doesn't prove I actually used them. Ideally, in future, please clarify what type and where I did so, so I can improve my skills in this area. I like to use this site for example.

Now, let me clarify and simplify

You admit it is an idiom on one hand, yet seemingly imply it can be taken literally sometimes. Can you clarify exactly what your position is on this?

According to you, what is the meaning of dhaqn in AQ and the primary meaning in Classical Arabic dictionaries? Does it ever mean "ground"?

"and, of a stone, kabbahu-l-sailu lidhaqnihi The torrent overturned it."

Can you provide a literal translation, so we can see if Lane is giving us the meaning of the phrase (because he understands the idiom).

So in his 3rd rendering, he shows us that the word "chin" is not important in this idiomatic phrase.

The word "chin" is not relevant when explaining the final meaning perhaps (as Lane does), but it is crucial in order to understand meaning, i.e. knowing this phrase is an idiomatic expression in the first place allows one to obtain the final or intended meaning. You seem to be confusing the two or how one leads to the other. Ask your expert Arabic linguist this, let us know what they say.

It tells us that the Arabic phrase "kharruu li2adhqaanihim" does not translate to"fall to the chin" in English. It translates to "they came crashing down"

Do you take it as such when it applies to humans, i.e. do they also "come crashing down". Please clarify this point exactly.

You said it yourself, TREES HAVE NO CHINS, then why do you insist on translating chin differently each time?

I do not translate it differently each time, I translate it exactly the same all the time. Again, you seem to be confusing the literal rendering of the phrase with its meaning. Once one understands the idiom, they can give the intended meaning.

This means that there are 2 references in the Quran where people physically fall at hearing the Quran.

Classic circular argument. Verse XYZ means ABC, that shows there are examples of ABC in XYZ.

Tell us what your expert in Arabic linguistics says about the construction of 1958 etc in which khrr is a verb in the perfect tense and sjd is a noun. I'd be interested to know the implications of the grammar.

Really? News to me. Perhaps another one of your % weightings will work well here?

Rather than dodging the question, please answer it so we can see if your claim of "Sujood is overwhelmingly used in concordance with prayer" is correct or not.

So by your logic we can say that we should ALWAYS cry when hearing God's words. Why make the excuse that they were just "highly responsive" people?

No excuse whatsoever, the verse you refer to is addressed to a specific group of people, whilst the others referenced are not. If a person knows Arabic, they should spot this easy.

But you are incapable of not being biased, so therefore your ridiculous "1 in 1 billion" and "1 in ten thousand billion billion" are somehow validated, whilst mine are useless.

Yes, yours are useless for others. The probabilities you refer to of mine are valid for me only, as I clearly state in the article. I say they are subjective thus choose your own thus they will be valid for you. Thus, when you post your % weightings for others, I am simply saying they may be relevant for you, but irrelevant for others. You dont seem to understand this simple point.

Please show your "1 in ten thousand billion billion" to anyone else on this forum to see if it's worth a damn.

What's the probability that you'll do it? (In what I individually determine to be valid of course) is 1 in 77 billion trillion!

http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Does_God_Exist_home.htm
It has been praised several times in this forum, and also in email feedback, including university professors. Not too shabby for my first article written at 16. Here are some examples
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598275.msg200122#msg200122
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11684.msg80809#msg80809

I agree that the only evidence you have of sjd to others is of angels/iblis to/for adam/mankind, although they are not people doing the sjd. I dont have a major problem with that, as not only is this a parable it was prior to this whole test on earth started. I completely reject your claim of sjd to others with "enter the gate in sjd", as it could easily refer to disposition. Ask your expert if it means "to others".

No one ever stated that words cannot have different meanings depending on context - that is only your obsession. Is that what you're arguing? That words cannot hold multiple meanings in the Quran depending on context?

Thanks for the admission. An example of person movement in sjd and it does not mean physical prostration. Nice to know we agree on something.

In fact, according to your description, we are making sujood right now. I am "hearing and obeying' right now, and I'm also "acknowledging" right now as we speak.

No, you would only be "hearing" not "obeying", and you would not be acknowledging because you disagree, thus at most would be acknowledging part (as in you hear what I'm saying) but reject another part (i.e. do not follow through and obey). Simple.

Also ask your expert when it says "and when you ABC do XYZ..." can it mean it is optional. Thanks.

Please take your time to respond and read very carefully.

[Wakas]

I forgot to say, after having overcome a 1 in 77 billion trillion probability, I'm feeling lucky, should I buy a lottery ticket?

;D

[ths]

Salaam,

Wakas, we can take from your lack of respect that you're an emotionally stunted individual. For not only do you feel it necessary to belittle me, but the insecurity you feel inside has driven you to disrespect the friend that I mentioned above.

My purpose in discussing this topic in this forum began as a personal quest to investigate and find the truth in a matter - for myself, and for the benefit of others searching for the same answers.
You failed to understand this, and turned the discussion into a personal one by making personal attacks.

I pointed this out to you above, and you continue to lay on the sarcasm and the disrespect of others.
You have not respected my spiritual quest as an individual, nor my efforts in this forum to understand an important concept. This goes against the teachings of the Quran, as you probably know, yet voluntarily continue to do it. It also shuns others from continuing in the discussion, out of fear of your sarcastic side-commentary.
Therefore your attitude has shunned people from finding the truth. So congratulations for that.

I'm more than happy to discuss this and all issues with anybody in this forum, but I'll tell you here and now, that if you weren't taught to speak with respect in your childhood, then you'll learn it now for I'll respond this time, and if you continue with your condescending tone it'll be my last. If you can speak and respond as an adult, then I'm more than happy to continue discussing with you.

Wakas, your attitude was wrong, you know it, I know it, and everyone reading this thread knows it. It's preserved in front of us. I expected MUCH more from a senior member on this forum. So be an adult and acknowledge your mistake and rectify it.

Now, onto the discussion,

You admit it is an idiom on one hand, yet seemingly imply it can be taken literally sometimes. Can you clarify exactly what your position is on this?

According to you, what is the meaning of dhaqn in AQ and the primary meaning in Classical Arabic dictionaries? Does it ever mean "ground"?

1.Absolutely not, it never means ground.
2. Dhaqn is used in the Quran to mean 'chin'.
3. I can't believe you still don't understand what I'm trying to say. My argument is absolutely clear. So either you are intentionally not understanding, or you have no language skills to speak of.

The word "chin" is not relevant when explaining the final meaning perhaps (as Lane does), but it is crucial in order to understand meaning, i.e. knowing this phrase is an idiomatic expression in the first place allows one to obtain the final or intended meaning. You seem to be confusing the two or how one leads to the other.

Please explain this gibberish.
So there is a final meaning, and an intermediate meaning?

I'm going to try to make my argument as clear as possible now

Dhaqn is chin
Kharruu liladhqaan is something totally different

You're progression is stopped, it seems, because of the presence of the word 'dhaqn'.

From Lane's Lexicon, we can infer that the phrase "kharruu lil2adhqaan" can be used to denote anything falling over surprisingly/swiftly/eagerly/completely

It is a poetic device, used like this

The mighty trees, that looked strong and sturdy, fell over eagerly at the strength of the wind

The heavy rock, that looked dense and immobile, keeled over in an instant at the strength of the torrent.

The fact that there exists the word 'chin' does not mean anything.

Here are some examples

1. .

Translation I bought it for dirt cheap

Meaning I bought something for a surprisingly low price.

The word 'dirt' means nothing in this sentence. It is not translated on its own. The PHRASE is translated.

Translation It is a slip of the tongue

Meaning It was a verbal mistake

The word 'tongue' is not translated directly to mean "a tongue slipped", because it's impossible for a tongue to slip.

Translation On my head

Meaning It's my pleasure

This is a common phrase in Arabic. When you're doing something for someone and they're thanking you, you commonly say "3ala raasi"

The word 'head' has no meaning in the phrase, and should not be taken literally. There is nothing on the head.

Translation Two healths
Meaning To be honest I have no idea hahah?all I know is that it's said after one finishes eating. It's a sort of blessing

Do you see where I'm going now?

Lane translated kharruu lil2adhqaan because that's how you read it in english "they fell to the chins"

I hope my argument is finally clear on this
Arabic is full of such expressions

Do you take it as such when it applies to humans, i.e. do they also "come crashing down". Please clarify this point exactly.

Yes. They fall to the ground eagerly. They fall swiftly as they weep.

Similar to the Arabic method of repetition to convey stress.

Translation He hit him a hit
Meaning He hit him especially hard

This is also used all over the Quran

Classic circular argument. Verse XYZ means ABC, that shows there are examples of ABC in XYZ.

This is EXACTLY what you are doing.

You are saying that XYZ does not mean ABC, and that shows there are no examples of ABC in XYZ.

please answer it so we can see if your claim of "Sujood is overwhelmingly used in concordance with prayer" is correct or not.

What are you talking about?
I took 'prayer' to mean dhikr, du3a2, salah, and worship in general?the English word prayer encompasses those things.

No excuse whatsoever, the verse you refer to is addressed to a specific group of people, whilst the others referenced are not. If a person knows Arabic, they should spot this easy.

What are you talking about?
The verse I quoted is not addressing anybody. It is making an example of previous messengers and prophets.
Read it again. I quote verse 1958

Yes, yours are useless for others. The probabilities you refer to of mine are valid for me only, as I clearly state in the article.

I thought it was obvious that these were my own personal weightings.
That's why I even added
"I shall try to be as unbiased as possible, giving equal weight to each possibility."

It is YOU who turned it into a ballyhoo as if I'd intended it to be a formulaic mathematical dissertation.
It was my own unbiased opinion, and that was obvious to everyone but you.

Not too shabby for my first article written at 16.

I TRULY hope this means that you're not 18 years old, because that would explain A LOT.

And that's all I have time for now.

In summary,

cut the preteen attitude and act like an adult so this can be a proper discussion for us, and for everyone reading it.

[ayman]

Peace RA786,

This is like comparing Apples to Oranges.
Prostrating to a Statue of Buddah is Different from Prostrating to Allah.
Prostrating to a Statue of a Snake with wings is Different from prostrating to a black box called the Kaba or the Rock at Temple Mount Dome Rock.
Just beauce a Pegan Sacrificial Mayan has a Mark on his Forehead...Doesnt mean that he is Equal to a Muslim who has a Mark on his Forehead.
I disagree with THS saying that ONLY muslims have the mark, because I think ANYONE who prostrates will develoupe one...
HOWEVER, I will admit...I have NEVER EVER seen a non-muslim with a Prostration mark.
Catholics are known for doing hand to head (father,son,holy spirit) and Muslims are Known for Prostration marks.

So you admit that the physical "mark" on the head is irrelevant to whether one is a "muslim" or even an average decent human being or not. Not only the extreme Hindus who prostrate to their idols frequently have those marks but also idiotic terrorists. Moreover, the mark is a kind of mild contact dermititis and depending on your skin type you may get it or not. Usually people with lighter skin will not get it. Are you really so blind as to think that the believers can only be of a certain skin type? So what does the physical "mark" have to do with piety or being from the believers? NOTHING.

Making a Sacrifice to Allah by sacrificing a Goat or Lamb and feeding the poor...... Is Different that sacraficing a goat's head to satan in a pegan Orgy Blood Sex ritual with a Cult.
Making a Pilgrimage to a Mosque is different then making a pilgrimage to a Satanic temple of Ritual.
Ayman is COMPLETELY missing the point and creating a fallacy.

If "Mike" is Prostrating on the ground or even towards the kaba(or temple Rock) and he is praying to Allah and his intention is Genuine because this is Honestly how he interpretes the verese and wishes to accomplish his goal of being Closer to Allah by performing a Physical Prostration while reciting Quran...
This in NO WAY makes him the same as a satanist prostrater. And Just beaucase The Satanist Prostrater and the Muslim have Makrs on their forehead doesnt mean they are the same. Thats UNFAIR of Ayman. very Unfair.

So you admit that the physical mark on the forehead is 100% irrelevant.

You also admit that the non-physical "intention" of Mike is what matters. So the primary aspect of "sujud", even according to you is non-physical.

*Where in the Quran does it say "Do Not Make ANY Physical Prostration to Allah while Reciting Quran and Asking for Guidence...ITS HARAAM!"
*Where in the Quran does it say "Do not wear White Sheets because Pegans do...Its HARAAAM!"
So now, we cant wear white sheets, and cant prostrate because we would be consittered Pegan?
(But doesnt pegan mean have false gods? how can we fit the actions of pegans if we have ALLAH as our God?) hmm

Listen RA786, you can prostrate towards a stone cube and walk around half naked in some white towels all you want, but don't lie and claim that you are doing it because the god told you so. It is indeed HARAAM to say lies about the god.

Where in the great reading does it say to make physical prostration to/towards a stone cube?
Where in the great reading does it say to wear some white sheets?

You cant keep using the old..."Pegans did it...so it must be bad!"
well pegans Drink Orange Juice, so now I feel to be a Better muslim...we need to stop drinking OJ!
Pegans also like to shave their heads....So now I feel we as Muslim must never cut our hair!
oppss Uh oh! Pegans Also believe to Never cut your hair! Oh no what do we do!?
Just because Pegans use Physical Prostration as their Means in Making Ritual Prayers, Doesnt Automatically Make ANY AND ALL physical prayers negitive and pegan.
They cant Coin and own the copy rights to physical Prostration. its not an All or nothing.

As I said, you can wear white sheets or walk naked or do whatever you want. But if you say that you are doing it because the god told you to do it then you better bring evidence from the great reading (which I know you can't). In my book, this makes you a liar against the god.

What makes the difference is the Words being said and the Thoughts that are being Manifested/Intention/meaning.
Thats what makes the difference between a Pegans prayer and a Muslims prayer.
Be Fair Ayman, and please dont go back to your "Pegans DID IT so it must be bad" argument all the time.

Once again, you admit that the important thing is not the physical but the non-physical, thereby contradicting yourself.

Peace,

Ayman

[ayman]

Peace Zulu,

Please read and digest again
4829 Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration.
Bow and Prostrate to who? Allah SWT. Not to a statue and not some paint markings on the face. As RA786 correctly stated, prostrating to Allah SWT is not the same as prostrating to some idol! The above ayat is defining Muslims who prostrate to Allah SWT and not Hindus or Buddhists who prostrate to anything and everything.

So you admit that "to who" is what matters and the physical marks don't matter since Hindus can equally have them, especially the extremist Hindus who spend all day prostrating to a statue. In other words, you are admitting that what you wrote here is 100% false nonsense

The only people I have seen with marks on their faces/foreheads are Muslims who have been physically prostrating and touching their foreheads on the ground.

Additional to this, according to your logic, Muslims have now also borrowed 'dress codes' from the Hindu faith as well. Like I said before, the stories and nonsense that you guys come up with belong in Hollywood. You guys are seriously in the wrong profession. Scriptwriting is where you need to be. Maybe they can back you up and turn your fantasies into a blockbuster.

As I told RA768, I don't care if you spin seven times around any idol half naked, just don't lie and say that they god told you to do so. If you are not a liar then tell us where did the god tell you to dress in white towels?

Furthermore, you also claim that the prostration should be on the chin. Why don't you just say prostration should be on the left ear as well, followed by the right ear, then finish off with a head stand with legs straight, feet together and toes pointing perfectly in the air, which will in turn get you a perfect score of 10!

Tell your hypocritical excuses to the god. He is the one who talked about the chins

Can you read Arabic? If not then ask THS, who knows Arabic, to underline the word "the chins" for you in the passage.

According to you dudes
Prayer is wrong
Fasting is wrong
Zakat is wrong
Pilgrimage is wrong
Not content with this, dress code is wrong, appearances are wrong, walking is wrong, talking is wrong, eating is wrong, washing is wrong, education is wrong, conducting business is wrong, marriage is wrong, having children is wrong and finally to top it all off, living and breathing is wrong. The only thing I await for from the likes of you, is statements that when Muslims die, their death is wrong because it has been corrupted using pagan rituals therefore they die the wrong way.
You guys have well and truly lost the plot.

As I said, no one cares if you mindlessly spin around some pagan stones wearing some white towels or if you have a fetish for kissing and fondling filthy stones that you face while praying. Go ahead and knock yourself out. The only thing is don't lie and claim that the god ordered you to do so.

Peace,

Ayman

[RA786]

Peace RA786,

So you admit that the physical "mark" on the head is irrelevant to whether one is a "muslim" or even an average decent human being or not. Not only the extreme Hindus who prostrate to their idols frequently have those marks but also idiotic terrorists. Moreover, the mark is a kind of mild contact dermititis and depending on your skin type you may get it or not. Usually people with lighter skin will not get it. Are you really so blind as to think that the believers can only be of a certain skin type? So what does the physical "mark" have to do with piety or being from the believers? NOTHING.

Wow Ayman, You really Are the BEST bravo .... To be honest I did not believe it, I didnt believe it at all until I got a tase of you... Its true, you really are the best at not only making absurd claims but twisting and turning a conversation around. I am a Pro-Se, Gee, if I Ever need a Lawyer Ill be sure to give you a call. laugh

1st I Do NOT apperciate that you have said
Are you really so blind as to think that the believers can only be of a certain skin type?
yuck Please dont insinuate that I am blind and also please Stay on topic. I have NEVER once in this thread said ANYTHING about Skin type and believers only having Prayer Marks. It not only is creating a False and Irrelavant Derailing Topic, but it gives a false Illusion that that was what I said thus making me look like an ignorant Racist Muslim (and I have never said that)

That is like me saying "Ayman!? Common brother! Are you really that cold hearted that you feel Aborting grown babies is totally cool and trendy!?"
See what I just did? I created a False story that never happened and now everyone who isnt paying attention thinks "oh wow, ayman is a real mean guy, he likes grown aborted babies."

So please...I am Not a Racist Muslim who thinks that Only Dark skinned Believers get a Prostration Mark. Stay ON TOPIC!

So what does the physical "mark" have to do with piety or being from the believers? NOTHING.

Actually I disagree with you hear. It can have alot to do with the believers and Piety in the sense that there are ALOT of muslims who have it because they pray alot. And Because They Pray alot therefore they feel closer to God and are more motivated personnally to do zakat, and other Islamic Good things.

However there are some "Bad Apples" who Also have the Mark and they Still do bad things and are far from god and are terrorists.
So who wins the Good guys or the Terrorists?
I dont think its that easy for us to say.

I would Conclude that for the "Good Muslims with the Prostration Mark" they not only (obviously) do Physical Prayer, but mental. (A combination, where faith has Truley entered in their heart.)

Then I would say that the "Terrorist Bad Muslims who also have the Prostration Mark" Do Prayer just like the Above (good guys) however Faith has NOT entered their heart and all they are doing is Excersise. They are merely repeating words, doing motions, and ultimatley Achieving NOTHING.

So does this mean ALL PROSTRATION AND PRAYER MARKS MEAN NOTHING!? No, lets not let the terrorists win!
Athiests use this same Logica for Criticiszing Religion, however what they dont realize is that Not EVERYBODY who practices religion is Wrong.
Here look at one of their Pictureshttp//i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm271/cromosoma_verde/varie/no_religion.jpg

Are the Athiests Right? would Athiesm really be the Panacea for the Homosapien evil disease? No, religious People have not only Started Wars, but also Ended them for Peace. Religious people have Feed Starving people, Cured Crack Addicks and whores, and has Freed tons of Slaves (as well as Ensalved them).
Its not the Religion (perse) its the PEOPLE, there are GOOD and BAD religious people. Not all Churches rob your money. Not all Catholics Rape your little boys.
So therefore back to your Comment, There are a lot of People who have Benifited from the Physical Prostration and have Develouped a Honorable Mark on their Forehead. Most who have this mark are True to what they do. They have really benifited from it and have manifested it into their life. It is Both a Physical and Mental/Spiritual thing.

However some have not benifited and have just simply got a lump on their head and it means nothing because their prayer is All physical and ill-intended. Allah knows best! D

Btw, Buddhists and many other religions get marks too, im just saying Muslims are KNOWN for having them, meaning...Though Buddhists have it...Muslims are greatly recognized more for it in the media. Just like Hindus have a red dot, Foot ball players have Black lines under they eyes...etc... Though many other people may have it..they for some reason have more publicity and are known more for having it.
(maybe buddhists should hire a new Publisist.) rotfl

So you admit that the physical mark on the forehead is 100% irrelevant.

No, I did not say it is Irrelevant (perse)...I think it is a Symbol of Great Prostration/Patience and Striving...however, even if you Plant your seed EVERYDAY 5x a day...it doesnt mean your seeds will grow. Though they may be doing 100% Prostation(physical) they are lacking in the mental/Spiritual Aspect of it when doing it.
Meaning, Theya re just going through the motions however perhaps thinking about something else (thus making the prostration in vain).
I think the mark on the forehead is relevent or rather has the Potential to be relevant.

Its like a Diploma. It takes Years and Years of Hard work in school to recieve a Ph.D Deploma. However, there is always some rich kid who grow up spoiled, payed his way through College, Cheated on Exams, Lied to his Friends and teachers and STILL recieved a Ph.D. Does the Ph.D. Really Matter? well, I suppose No...NOT FOR
"HIM", however for the other kid who honestly works his way rightfully to get his Ph.D...yes it does matter for him. it is a Symbol and Fruit a badge of Honor showing how much he strived to go through. Thats how I will conclude that.

You also admit that the non-physical "intention" of Mike is what matters. So the primary aspect of "sujud", even according to you is non-physical.

I would not say so. Why? Because There must be a Duality. Ying and a Yang.
(unless of course you honest cannot prostrate because your Paralyzed, but however Wished you could.)
I think that for me anyways, I would GAIN more out of my Salaat/Dua if I prostate...because Yes even though my Head (mental) would be in the right place at first...I tend to loose focus. I tend to only focus when I am Physically FORCED to do something. If I am Praying to God while driving...I usually end my prayer or forget surahs or do not feel Spiritually Saticfied...however when I STOP my actions and FORCE my body to PHYSICALLY bend my joints and prostrate to pray, I feel I gain more out of it and I dont have ADD (attention defficet disorder), I feel like i could focus more on "what" the message is I am trying to convey and what I wish to gain out of it.

Listen RA786, you can prostrate towards a stone cube and walk around half naked in some white towels all you want, but don't lie and claim that you are doing it because the god told you so. It is indeed HARAAM to say lies about the god.

Ayman I will Once gain tell you that you are making me Angry. >( And in a Polite way, I would really Apperciate it if you would stop this.
I do not like the part where you stated that I lied.

but don't lie and claim that you are doing it because the god told you so.

You are Falsy Accusing me of something I did not do. If you would like me to call you out...I could.
I could say that you are then breaking a Quranic Rule against Slander. I have Never Ever Ever EVER said
I RA786 amdoing it because the god told you (ME) so.
Please dont slander. I have never said that...I have please Copy and Paste it so I can see. I dont believe I said God told me to go around a Stone in white Sheets. If I in FACT did and forgot then I Sincearly Appoligize to you and everone here for forgetting.

Where in the great reading does it say to make physical prostration to/towards a stone cube?

According to my Current knowldge of Islam (I am a new convert, roughly 2 years now) and my Interpretation, The Kaba in Mecca is the Quibla.
So I pray towards it as that is what I know/been taught. I have Already read this debate with you and Edip on this aswell as heard Everyone's interpretation from Layth, Simple, herbman, Sarah, etc...etc...etc...etc...
So I wish not to debate this tedious topic. I have my interpretation and you have yours. At a latter time When I am ready to fully understand and expound on Quranic Knowldge I might reconsiter. For now, I feel its either Jerusalam or its Mecca...and I have more on Mecca then Jerusalam. D

Where in the great reading does it say to wear some white sheets?

Nowhere that I have heard. I am not arguing this fact, I admit I agree with you on this one.

As I said, you can wear white sheets or walk naked or do whatever you want. But if you say that you are doing it because the god told you to do it then you better bring evidence from the great reading (which I know you can't). In my book, this makes you a liar against the god
.

I Would never (Conciously) Attribute a Lie to God Mr. Ayman. police Watch your Tone Cheif! police
I only said or believed that Allah has told me to do Hajj (Pilrgimage)...however I agree that I have NEVER heard Allah Tell me to Dress in white sheets and circle a Black box 7 times chanting his name.

The ONLY thing I heard Allah say (in the Quran) is to make the Hajj, feed the Poor, resist fighting, Send a Gift, vistit the house, and no blame on me if I decide to go around Safa and Mawrah (sighns of God).... Thats ALL I read from Allah. (I admit this and have never stated otherwise...unless I forgot).

Once again, you admit that the important thing is not the physical but the non-physical, thereby contradicting yourself.

I have not said this...This is actually YOUR conclusion...not Mine.

Please be well advised that I do not believe the Important thing is the mental or physical apect. I believe in Duality (at least for myself) as the best means for creating a daily conection with Allah. I feel that an ARM is just as Important as a Leg...or for a better example...a Mental Hijab is just as Important as a Physical one.
to me one with out the other may not be 100% to my needs. I require both, unless I am physically unable to do so and must then sacrifice my physical prostraion...and really really really try hard to improve my mental. (such as if I was sick or was physically unable to do so as I was on a Bus or plane.) to me Mental is bare minumum...perhaps still acceptible but bear minumum. add the physical and you got one cool Prayer!

P.s. About the White Sheets and circling the Kaba 7 times etc....
Yes It may not be in the Quran...but does this make it Bad and Haraam? is All tradition Haraam? or is ONLY the Tradition that is Shirk Haraam?

you see I have realized something... I think that Tradtional Islam may not be bad afterall. Maybe just Maybe... The ONLY BAD thing about Tradtional Islam is the Shirk and Abrogative Hadiths to the Quran.

But what If we cut those two things out? would it STILL be bad?

American Tradition Style Islam, Middle Eastern Meccan Traditional Style Islam, and even Chinese Traditional Style Islam is ALL compatible with The QUran and can be Followed as long as it fits this Criteria.

1)No Shirk.
2)No Abrogative/Contradictive teachings.

So really as long as you arent doing those two things... Maybe ANY cultural tradition is Good and Compatible with Islam. Right?

If I Circle the Kaba 7 times in a white sheet because I feel this Is Hajj according to my interpretation, I have not added another Name (Partner to Allah) and I have not Abrogated any verese of the Quran....Then is what I am doing Bad in any way?

am I going against Allah? Am I harming anyone? Am I disobeying?

Peace/Salaam

EDIT. P.s.s.

My father and I used to play the Punch Bug Game where when you are driving and see a Punch bug you have to Quickly punch someone and scream punch bug!
http//i151.photobucket.com/albums/s153/Boo2_07/untitled-12.jpg
Then, We decided to not punch and only say "punch bug".
For some odd reason my dad decided to make a new rule to the game...that whenever you see one and say punch bug...you also have to say "Subhanallah" or "Alhumdulilah". (some type of glory to god).

So, it kind just stuck and whenever we see one the Automatic thought comes to mind PUNCH BUG!.......SUBHANALLAH!
So...This family tradion I Practice...Is it Pegan? am I now a Pegan Polytheist no good Transgressing hypocrate?
I mean...is this a tradition that was ordained by Allah in the Quran?...or did we just make this up?..and if we did...is it pegan and wrong?
I dont think so...becuase the Intention is Good. D I am not worshipping the Car nor am I adding it as a Partner to Allah.

[amin]

in many ways the traditional ritual prayer can be compared with that of the pagan way of worship. if anyone thinks that their way of worship is the only correct one to remember/reach GOD, thats called idol worshipping? idols have forms and splits people so do rituals.
until anyone thinks rituals are not important and not wanted by God, he is not truly following the only true God.

the problem is that traditionalists argue they are not like idol worshippers, but they want every mosque facing Mekah? every one should pray in Arabic,
the pilgrimage is fixed to a place which is considered more sacred than any other place.
They blame the pagan rituals and offerings as waste but never care to see how much they waste when they do their Hajj,
they want people to use the lunar arabic calendar, even there are rules in some places they should wear a cap or cover their head to look like an Arab.

Ultimately many are fooled that the Arabic language and culture is the chosen one, these people were dragged from their native culture to a completely alien corrupted system that has no chance for improvement. infact they are worshipping an idol called Arabian Sunnah solely based on Hadiths without thinking.

Their lands/countries really speak of their religion, how peacefull Islamic they are? ).

[zulu12]

Dear Ayman

Dude....... You can argue until the cows come home that the earth is square and the moon is a triangle. It doesn't matter what you say, the reality is you have well and truly lost the plot.

The plain and simple truth is that you are jealous of the Muslims. Period.

And yes, God did tell us to Pray, God did tell us to Fast, God did tell us to give in Charity and God did tell us to perform Pilgrimage. Get over it. Don't hate.

And finally to wrap up, God also told us to beware of people like you

278 And there are among them unlettered people who have no real knowledge of the divine writ, only wishful beliefs and depending on nothing but conjecture.

427 And God wants to turn unto you in His mercy, whereas those who follow their own lusts want you to drift far away from the right path.

6116 Now if thou pay heed unto the majority of those on earth, they will but lead thee astray from the path of God they follow but conjectures, and they themselves do nothing but guess.

Now I suggest you come up with another conspiracy theory and repeat yourself like a parrot that we are all idol worshipers following pagan rituals blah blah blah, otherwise you will be breaking from the 'norm' and we don't want that now do we.

Peace

[RA786]

in many ways the traditional ritual prayer can be compared with that of the pagan way of worship. if anyone thinks that their way of worship is the only correct one to remember/reach GOD, thats called idol worshipping? idols have forms and splits people so do rituals.
until anyone thinks rituals are not important and not wanted by God, he is not truly following the only true God.

the problem is that traditionalists argue they are not like idol worshippers, but they want every mosque facing Mekah? every one should pray in Arabic,
the pilgrimage is fixed to a place which is considered more sacred than any other place.
They blame the pagan rituals and offerings as waste but never care to see how much they waste when they do their Hajj,
they want people to use the lunar arabic calendar, even there are rules in some places they should wear a cap or cover their head to look like an Arab.

Ultimately many are fooled that the Arabic language and culture is the chosen one, these people were dragged from their native culture to a completely alien corrupted system that has no chance for improvement. infact they are worshipping an idol called Arabian Sunnah solely based on Hadiths without thinking.

Their lands/countries really speak of their religion, how peacefull Islamic they are? ).

It is Obvious that there are Similarities between a Traditionalist Muslim's Ritual Prayer and a Pegan Ritual Prayer.
Be be Fair. There is a Difference two.... What kind of Difference... SHIRK....(Thats a BIG BIG difference, in fact thats so bog of a difference that it can lead someone to hell)

Traditional Sunni Shia Muslims Create a Dogmatic Religion where there is No Open Mind and One way is the ONLY way (yet they diagree on this way.)
Of this You are right.

But some Quran Aloners make the Mistake of destroying that dogmatic Traditionalist system and place it with another.
I feel We (ths,zulu,Ra786) have not done that, however I Feel Ayman has.

I dont think my ritual prayer is the ONLY correct way, The Quran is Open Enough to Allow Many ways.

So just Like We (Ths, Ra786, Zulu) Should Not creat a Dogmatic Religion....
Ayman should not create one either. Just becuase He doesnt believe in the way we pray doesnt mean his way is correct and we are nothing but hypocritic Pegan Indolitry satanic polytheist worshipers. HE is acting just like a Sunni/Shia Traditional muslims saying HIS way is the Good way and ours is Incorrect, and you are basically helpping him.

We are just Discussing/Debating. If You all feel NO PROSTRATION is Correct then by all means Carry on, However dont accuse us or imply that our way is Polytheist or Pegan. thats a wicked allegation.

until anyone thinks rituals are not important and not wanted by God, he is not truly following the only true God

But What If I DO think they are Imporatant and Ordained by God / Wanted by Me? am I not Truley Following One God?
You have created a Fallacy. You say that sice I believe in this way, I am not Following The Only True God.
Then what God am I following? Have I said a name other than Allah? Have I cut a goats head in another name? Have I participated ina Cult Ritual?
NO. Therefore you claim hold NO validity.

You basically believe Just like Ayman, that "Your way is Correct and our is Pegan/Wrong."

Its Funny Ironic......Perhaps You and Ayman have Become the thing You hate You hated the Dogmatic Sunnis/Shia's yet have become Dogmatic yourself.

A Good Example is Thos Who Encourage Muslim Women to Take Off their Hijab by saying its a Symbol of Intolerance and Oppression, Then They Create Laws to BAN any WOman from wearing Hijab completeley. They Liberated the Oppressed Women who were Forced to wear hijab in the Begining Only to now Oppress them by Forcing them to Take it off Forever, Instead of Just Giving them a Choice.

They can Wear it if they Truley want to, or They can take it off if they Truley want to. However not making any law that forces the women to do either or.

My Salaat is Not the ONLY way, Ths's salaat is not the only way Ayman's isnt the Only way and Wakas and you.
But Apparently, anyone who doesnt follow you and Ayman is a Pegan?

I never gave this type of Ultimatum. Ths never gave or implied this type of ultimatum. Look in the mirror.

Salaam/Peace

[ths]

peace amin

in many ways the traditional ritual prayer can be compared with that of the pagan way of worship. if anyone thinks that their way of worship is the only correct one to remember/reach GOD, thats called idol worshipping? idols have forms and splits people so do rituals.
until anyone thinks rituals are not important and not wanted by God, he is not truly following the only true God.

It seems that you do not know what "ritual" means

I've seen these statements bandied around this forum for a long time now, so I think it's time to put a stop to them.

The following definitions are taken from here http//dictionary.reference.com/browse/ritual

1. an established or prescribed procedure for a religious or other rite.

2. any practice or pattern of behavior regularly performed in a set manner.

Now, this

until anyone thinks rituals are not important and not wanted by God, he is not truly following the only true God.

is an absolutely incorrect statement, because God tells us that salah is a TIMED decree
This means that you do it every single day, and that God, in fact, loves rituals and thinks they are important.

So hopefully that will stop the ridiculous people trolling these forums talking about God hating rituals.

even there are rules in some places they should wear a cap or cover their head to look like an Arab.

Where is this??
And Arabs don't wear caps

[ths]

Salaam all,

Just a clarification

RA786

I disagree with THS saying that ONLY muslims have the mark, because I think ANYONE who prostrates will develoupe one...

I haven't talked at all about the 'marks on their faces' passage..might have been zulu

Ayman

Can you read Arabic? If not then ask THS, who knows Arabic, to underline the word "the chins" for you in the passage.

Brother Ayman, I don't know if you've read my views on this, but you can find them here, and in many previous posts.
I'm interested to hear your views on them if you care to share.

And lastly, just an appeal to everyone

How about we all stop the shit-flinging and talk to each other as adults. This thread is making me feel like I'm in high school.
I think it's reflective of the general mentality at freeminds that conversations are incapable of being had without turning it into a teen pissing contest - or maybe everyone here ARE teens

[RA786]

RA786
I haven't talked at all about the 'marks on their faces' passage..might have been zulu

Yeah sorry, that was Zulu....and it was a misquote anyways. D

or maybe everyone here ARE teens

well I am 19 till next week....so.... I guess I still have time to be a kid.

Piss Contest Anyone? rotfl

[zulu12]

Yep. It was my quote and I stand by it.

I'm not too sure about the shit flinging part, maybe turd throwing would be better.

Peace