If Allah wants things to be easy for us, why so much confusion about salat?
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peace amin
in many ways the traditional ritual prayer can be compared with that of the pagan way of worship. if anyone thinks that their way of worship is the only correct one to remember/reach GOD, thats called idol worshipping? idols have forms and splits people so do rituals.
until anyone thinks rituals are not important and not wanted by God, he is not truly following the only true God.It seems that you do not know what "ritual" means
I've seen these statements bandied around this forum for a long time now, so I think it's time to put a stop to them.
The following definitions are taken from here http//dictionary.reference.com/browse/ritual
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an established or prescribed procedure for a religious or other rite.
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any practice or pattern of behavior regularly performed in a set manner.
Now, this
until anyone thinks rituals are not important and not wanted by God, he is not truly following the only true God.
is an absolutely incorrect statement, because God tells us that salah is a TIMED decree
This means that you do it every single day, and that God, in fact, loves rituals and thinks they are important.So hopefully that will stop the ridiculous people trolling these forums talking about God hating rituals.
even there are rules in some places they should wear a cap or cover their head to look like an Arab.
Where is this??
And Arabs don't wear caps -
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Salaam all,
Just a clarification
RA786
I disagree with THS saying that ONLY muslims have the mark, because I think ANYONE who prostrates will develoupe one...
I haven't talked at all about the 'marks on their faces' passage..might have been zulu
Ayman
Can you read Arabic? If not then ask THS, who knows Arabic, to underline the word "the chins" for you in the passage.
Brother Ayman, I don't know if you've read my views on this, but you can find them here, and in many previous posts.
I'm interested to hear your views on them if you care to share.And lastly, just an appeal to everyone
How about we all stop the shit-flinging and talk to each other as adults. This thread is making me feel like I'm in high school.
I think it's reflective of the general mentality at freeminds that conversations are incapable of being had without turning it into a teen pissing contest - or maybe everyone here ARE teens -
RA786
I haven't talked at all about the 'marks on their faces' passage..might have been zuluYeah sorry, that was Zulu....and it was a misquote anyways. D
or maybe everyone here ARE teens
well I am 19 till next week....so.... I guess I still have time to be a kid.
Piss Contest Anyone? rotfl
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Yep. It was my quote and I stand by it.
Actually I think I misquoted you Zulu.
You said that the ONLY people who YOU have witness that have the Mark on their forheads are Believers (muslims).
and that is fine. that is according to your knowledge.However, My Misquote was Zulu belueves that ONLY muslims get that mark.
(and I disagree with that because I think there are others who get that mark even though they are not muslim, for example Some Hindu's or Buddhists might get that mark because they Prostrate too.)So Even Non-muslims get a Prostration Mark somtimes....its just that Muslims are more recognized as having it.
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Salaam Hope4,
Firstly, I haven't read through the entire book, but I've just skimmed through and wanted to convey my dismay! What an insecure person this author must be! The whole thing is about Arabs!
"the Arab religion" - I'm seeing this term bandied around quite a lot...what does that mean?? Many of the most well respected exegetes were Persians and central Asians. Even the greatest grammarians, Sibawaih amongst others, were Persians
Or how about this
Part 1 - "God is not an Arab"
hahaha really? I'm surprised to hear that someone suggested he IS an Arab. This chapter is ridiculous...no one says you have to pray in Arabic! Sunnis do NOT say that. People merely encourage learning Arabic because it is the language that the Quran is written in. And if you can't comprehend what an important role poetics, rhetoric and eloquence (balaaghah), and richness of language play in the Quran - then you are missing PLENTY of knowledge
Part 3 - "The Arab Religion"
Part 3 - Arab religious laws
Part 3 - Arab ritual prayer
Part 5 - How the Arabs do the ?Sol-laa shuffle?or what about this
A table on page 61 under 'The conspiracies" (what terrible usage of the word conspiracies!)
The column headers are "Arabic Word" - "Arab Corruption" - "Fundamental Meaning"
Or this
Part 12 - A message to Arab religionists
So I don't know what Arabs have done to this guy...but the poor guy really has an axe to grind.
I read Part 2 "There is no religion of God" and really liked it so far, so I'm hoping his arguments aren't as fraught with paranoia as his emotions are
I'll take a better look and let you know about the arguments he proposes
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Selam all
What do you think of salat in this book? http//www.aididsafar.com/pdf/Mental%20Bondage.pdf
Interested to hear of the different views.
Peace
Page 139.
Why does the Author Feel repeating Surah 108 in Salaat (ritual prayer form) is inappropiate?
As If to say, It is Inapropiate to say certin verses to God?Well so I guess People who do ritual prayers are Arrogant Boastful Egotistic Polytheist Pegan Worshipers.
Before It was Only Those who added Partners to Allah, Now lets take it a step futher ANYONE who Prostrates to Allah in prayer is an Apostate of Islam and is a Hypocrate and is a Pegan idol worshiper and deserves no honor. police
Dont bow to Nothing...not even Allah! police
Lest you be one of the Polytheists! police
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Peace RA768,
Wow Ayman, You really Are the BEST bravo .... To be honest I did not believe it, I didnt believe it at all until I got a tase of you... Its true, you really are the best at not only making absurd claims but twisting and turning a conversation around. I am a Pro-Se, Gee, if I Ever need a Lawyer Ill be sure to give you a call. laugh
1st I Do NOT apperciate that you have said yuck Please dont insinuate that I am blind and also please Stay on topic. I have NEVER once in this thread said ANYTHING about Skin type and believers only having Prayer Marks. It not only is creating a False and Irrelavant Derailing Topic, but it gives a false Illusion that that was what I said thus making me look like an ignorant Racist Muslim (and I have never said that)
That is like me saying "Ayman!? Common brother! Are you really that cold hearted that you feel Aborting grown babies is totally cool and trendy!?"
See what I just did? I created a False story that never happened and now everyone who isnt paying attention thinks "oh wow, ayman is a real mean guy, he likes grown aborted babies."
So please...I am Not a Racist Muslim who thinks that Only Dark skinned Believers get a Prostration Mark. Stay ON TOPIC!Since getting the mark depends on skin type then it is implied in your reasoning that skin type is more important than piety. So in your world a very bad person or a terrorist or someone who physically prostrates to physical idols with the skin type that easily gets marked with contact and has a physical mark is more pious than a good person with a skin type that doesn't get marked with extended contact. Of course you didn't say this directly but it is implied by your strange logic.
Actually I disagree with you hear. It can have alot to do with the believers and Piety in the sense that there are ALOT of muslims who have it because they pray alot. And Because They Pray alot therefore they feel closer to God and are more motivated personnally to do zakat, and other Islamic Good things.
However there are some "Bad Apples" who Also have the Mark and they Still do bad things and are far from god and are terrorists.
So who wins the Good guys or the Terrorists?
I dont think its that easy for us to say.There you go with the contradictory nonsense again that a physical mark "has a lot to do with the believers and piety." You then contradict yourself again and admit that bad people will have the same exact mark as good guys. So you know that the physical mark is irrelevant and yet you insist on this nonsense. This is a sign that you are lost.
I would Conclude that for the "Good Muslims with the Prostration Mark" they not only (obviously) do Physical Prayer, but mental. (A combination, where faith has Truley entered in their heart.)
Then I would say that the "Terrorist Bad Muslims who also have the Prostration Mark" Do Prayer just like the Above (good guys) however Faith has NOT entered their heart and all they are doing is Excersise. They are merely repeating words, doing motions, and ultimatley Achieving NOTHING.Your conclusion is 100% false. How do you know that they are "good muslims"? How about "good muslims" without the physical mark? Are they not as pious? It is NOT a combination. The physical mark is 100% irrelevant.
Ayman I will Once gain tell you that you are making me Angry. > And in a Polite way, I would really Apperciate it if you would stop this.
I do not like the part where you stated that I lied.You are Falsy Accusing me of something I did not do. If you would like me to call you out...I could.
I could say that you are then breaking a Quranic Rule against Slander. I have Never Ever Ever EVER said Please dont slander. I have never said that...I have please Copy and Paste it so I can see. I dont believe I said God told me to go around a Stone in white Sheets. If I in FACT did and forgot then I Sincearly Appoligize to you and everone here for forgetting.
According to my Current knowldge of Islam (I am a new convert, roughly 2 years now) and my Interpretation, The Kaba in Mecca is the Quibla.
So I pray towards it as that is what I know/been taught. I have Already read this debate with you and Edip on this aswell as heard Everyone's interpretation from Layth, Simple, herbman, Sarah, etc...etc...etc...etc...
So I wish not to debate this tedious topic. I have my interpretation and you have yours. At a latter time When I am ready to fully understand and expound on Quranic Knowldge I might reconsiter. For now, I feel its either Jerusalam or its Mecca...and I have more on Mecca then Jerusalam.Irrespective of those debates, why would you wear those white sheets?
Those white sheets have a direct relation to the false pagan idea that you would return sinless like a newborn if you kiss the black stone and spin 7 times around a black cube.
Nowhere that I have heard. I am not arguing this fact, I admit I agree with you on this one.
It is good that unlike Zulu, you are decent and mature enough to admit that the god never told you to go around any stone in white sheets.
I Would never (Conciously) Attribute a Lie to God Mr. Ayman. police Watch your Tone Cheif! police
I only said or believed that Allah has told me to do Hajj (Pilrgimage)...however I agree that I have NEVER heard Allah Tell me to Dress in white sheets and circle a Black box 7 times chanting his name.Or kiss a black stone or that you will return sinless like a newborn upon doing those things.
It doesn't matter if you are doing it conciously or unconciously, the result is the same. Most, if not all, Christians and Sunnis will equally claim that they are not attributing lies to the god.
The question is now that YOU KNOW that those are lies, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?
Are you going to continue to happily believe in spinning 7 times around a black box and kissing or weaving to a black stone while wearing white sheets?
The ONLY thing I heard Allah say (in the Quran) is to make the Hajj, feed the Poor, resist fighting, Send a Gift, vistit the house, and no blame on me if I decide to go around Safa and Mawrah (sighns of God).... Thats ALL I read from Allah. (I admit this and have never stated otherwise...unless I forgot).
So you know that wearing white sheets and spinning 7 times around a cube has nothing to so with what you know is the purpose of "hajj"! What are you going to do about it?
I have not said this...This is actually YOUR conclusion...not Mine.
Please be well advised that I do not believe the Important thing is the mental or physical apect. I believe in Duality (at least for myself) as the best means for creating a daily conection with Allah. I feel that an ARM is just as Important as a Leg...or for a better example...a Mental Hijab is just as Important as a Physical one.
to me one with out the other may not be 100% to my needs. I require both, unless I am physically unable to do so and must then sacrifice my physical prostraion...and really really really try hard to improve my mental. (such as if I was sick or was physically unable to do so as I was on a Bus or plane.) to me Mental is bare minumum...perhaps still acceptible but bear minumum. add the physical and you got one cool Prayer!If you really believe in duality and in the physical aspect being important then you would need to interpret the passages physically. If you interpret them physically then "sujud" must be to the chin and not the forehead!
P.s. About the White Sheets and circling the Kaba 7 times etc....
Yes It may not be in the Quran...but does this make it Bad and Haraam? is All tradition Haraam? or is ONLY the Tradition that is Shirk Haraam?Yes it is bad and HARAAM to take what you admit to have no knoweldge of and make it part of what the god has asked you to do. It is bad to follow blindly. Especially, in this case the white sheets and the spinning 7 times around a black cube have NOTHING to do with the purposes of "hajj" and have everything to do with the false purpose of "returning sinless like a newborn".
you see I have realized something... I think that Tradtional Islam may not be bad afterall. Maybe just Maybe... The ONLY BAD thing about Tradtional Islam is the Shirk and Abrogative Hadiths to the Quran.
What else is worst than "shirk" (the only unforgiveable sin)?! Yet you happily and blindly follow the path of those who commit "shirk".
But what If we cut those two things out? would it STILL be bad?
You didn't cut them out. You are still following them blindly!
If anything, you added new junk such as Code 19 and Khalifa's Hadiths with which you abrogate the great reading!
Peace,
Ayman
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Selam
Thanks for your replies. I am still reading the text so do not have an overall view yet. So far I get the impression he is trying to say that Islam is not a religion. He implies that it is a system or way of life with no rituals and which he claims that men have invented the ritual part. It is a new concept to me and a different way at looking at things. There is a website which you can put questions to him or read others who have questioned his views/beliefs etc and read the replies. http//mentalbondageinthenameofgod.wordpress.com/
Peace
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Peace ths,
Ayman
Brother Ayman, I don't know if you've read my views on this, but you can find them here, and in many previous posts.
I'm interested to hear your views on them if you care to share.Since you are an Arabic speaker, then I will try to be brief and hopefully what I am about to say should be easy to understand.
Grammatically, the accusative word "sujjudan" in "yakhorruun lil2adhqaan sujjudan" names the action or manner of the verb preceding.
So, take this example
I fell in the hole intact
So the type or manner of your fall is that you fell intact.
There could be two situations, either you fell in a physical hole or it is an idiom for falling in trouble. Since it names the action that came before it, then if it was a physical action (i.e., literally falling in a physical hole) then "intact" must also be physical (i.e., with no broken limbs). On the other hand, if "fell in the hole" is an idiom for falling in trouble then "intact" is also an idiom and doesn't mean physically intact (i.e., with no broken limbs). Because it describes the manner of the preceding action, it can't be literal while the action is idiomatic. So you can't say for example, that "fell in a hole" is an idiom but "intact" is physical meaning with no broken limbs.
So you answered your own objections in the following statement to Wakas
"From Lane's Lexicon, we can infer that the phrase "kharruu lil2adhqaan" can be used to denote anything falling over surprisingly/swiftly/eagerly/completely
It is a poetic device"You were right. It is an idiom (a poetic device). It follows that "sujjadan" names the action of the idiom yakhorruun lil2adhqaan. In other words, it describes how "they fell to the chins". So if "they fell to the chins" is an idiom as you admit then "sujjadan" is also idiomatic and is not physical.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Hope4,
Selam
Thanks for your replies. I am still reading the text so do not have an overall view yet. So far I get the impression he is trying to say that Islam is not a religion. He implies that it is a system or way of life with no rituals and which he claims that men have invented the ritual part. It is a new concept to me and a different way at looking at things. There is a website which you can put questions to him or read others who have questioned his views/beliefs etc and read the replies. http//mentalbondageinthenameofgod.wordpress.com/
PeaceAidid makes a lot of linguistic and logical mistakes. His work is emotionally charged, and he relied too much on making his arguments strong compared to the sectarian arguments as opposed to based on studying the great reading. Of course, given that sectarians are illogical, any half-baked argument would sound good compared to their arguments.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Hope4,
Aidid makes a lot of linguistic and logical mistakes. His work is emotionally charged, and he relied too much on making his arguments strong compared to the sectarian arguments as opposed to based on studying the great reading. Of course, given that sectarians are illogical, any half-baked argument would sound good compared to their arguments.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman
Thank you for your comment, he does actually sound emotionally charged ;D However, I have one question. Is his claim of Islam not being a religion and not having rituals have any basis?
Peace
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peace Hope4,
please see http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/islam-religion.htmlThe word "ritual" is a simple and common word, and can mean
#any customary observance or practice
#the prescribed procedure for conducting religious ceremoniesThe first definition can include brushing one's teeth for example, and there is nothing wrong in such a "ritual". Rituals by themselves are not wrong, but a ritual that has no basis in AQ or its principles is most likely wrong.
I forgot to say I 100% agree with bro Ayman's previous reply (#136) about Aidid's work.
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Since getting the mark depends on skin type then it is implied in your reasoning that skin type is more important than piety. So in your world a very bad person or a terrorist or someone who physically prostrates to physical idols with the skin type that easily gets marked with contact and has a physical mark is more pious than a good person with a skin type that doesn't get marked with extended contact. Of course you didn't say this directly but it is implied by your strange logic.
This is your conclusion based off of your interpretation not mine. You cannot tell me what I mean or intend if you have absolutely no knowledge of what I am thinking. (unless you can read minds). This is NOT the Prospective that I believe nor is it my conclusion. It is you interpretation and conclusion based off of what I have said. How are you going to argue My Opinion?
You clearly are great at doing this. You belong in the court room. You right "So in your world..." no its not my world...you are making up your own ideas and claming they are mine by saying that thats what I INDIRECTLY meant.
You know what Ayamn, You INDIRECTLY like Grown Aborted babies because its a Trendy and cool thing to watch....
There you go with the contradictory nonsense again that a physical mark "has a lot to do with the believers and piety." You then contradict yourself again and admit that bad people will have the same exact mark as good guys. So you know that the physical mark is irrelevant and yet you insist on this nonsense. This is a sign that you are lost.
Your conclusion is 100% false. How do you know that they are "good muslims"? How about "good muslims" without the physical mark? Are they not as pious? It is NOT a combination. The physical mark is 100% irrelevant.
Call it what you will Ayman. There are Good Muslims who dont have the Prayer mark. (i dont have it)... I am just saying that that it is a Symbol.
Do you watch UFC and Boxing? There is a Symbol for fighters called "Colly Flower Ear". Not everyone who fights gets it.
But it is a badge of honor. It usually means that you have endured endless years of fighting...(and most people reach the conclusion that you are a Good Fighter because of it)However this is a Logical Fallacy. (yes I agree), because There are some guys who have Colly flower ear, and are STILL terrible at fighting. Yes they may have edured endless hours of fighting and training...But it becomes Irrelevant because somewhere down the line they lacked.
So in that respect...Yes it is Irrelevant for people like that.
But for All the fighters that I have ever meet in my life who have the colly flower ear....They are Great fighters.
(there are some a small minority who are great fighters and dont have it...But the Majority of GREAT fighters in the world...have colly flower ear...however this doent necessarily mean they are good fighters...You would say it is a coinsodence...Id say its a matter of Minority and Majority.The MAJORITY of great fighters have it....Key Word MAJORITY....so does majority mean irrelevant?
Irrespective of those debates, why would you wear those white sheets?
Those white sheets have a direct relation to the false pagan idea that you would return sinless like a newborn if you kiss the black stone and spin 7 times around a black cube.
I dont believe I will be sinless. and I dont believe in kissing the black stone.
Circling it and screaming Allah AKbar seems fun. So maybe thats why....because its fun. (and not haraam).The question is now that YOU KNOW that those are lies, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?
Are you going to continue to happily believe in spinning 7 times around a black box and kissing or weaving to a black stone while wearing white sheets?
So you know that wearing white sheets and spinning 7 times around a cube has nothing to so with what you know is the purpose of "hajj"! What are you going to do about it?
Nothing, I think its fun. I think its pretty cool and a fu thing to do....as long as I am not Praying to Another Allah, or making Partners to Allah...What is realy wrong with screaming Allah Akbar in the desert at a black Box?
Why not do the same at my own house with a bunch of people? or at a Concert? I think its fun and traditional....Its only haram when its Shirk.
Yes it is bad and HARAAM to take what you admit to have no knoweldge of and make it part of what the god has asked you to do. It is bad to follow blindly. Especially, in this case the white sheets and the spinning 7 times around a black cube have NOTHING to do with the purposes of "hajj" and have everything to do with the false purpose of "returning sinless like a newborn".
You keep saying how bad it is by attributing Pegan-beliefs into it...However If you take the pegan beliefs out...you know I could be right.
What is really Wrong with dancing around a box saying Allah Akbar? As long as its not shirk....i dont see what the matter is.As long as you arent doing Shirk, or Breaking Quranic Rules...I dont see how following ANY TRADITION can be haraam.
Its only Haraam when it breaks Quran rules and commits shirk...(right)?If me and a bunch of Free-minders decided to dance around a Campfire wearing Yellow Jump Suits....and Said Allah Akbar... would that be Haraam?
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peace ths,
Thanks for your subjective psychological analysis and advice. I have some advice try and answer the questions you are asked when involved in a discussion, and not skip them, some examples
Can you provide a literal translation, so we can see if Lane is giving us the meaning of the phrase (because he understands the idiom).
You admit it is an idiom on one hand, yet seemingly imply it can be taken literally sometimes. Can you clarify exactly what your position is on this?
Also see bro Ayman's post for a similar point.
So there is a final meaning, and an intermediate meaning?
I recommend looking up the definition of "idiom" and how they work. In every example you gave the word in the idiom (dirt, tongue, head) is crucial in determining the meaning (this is simple logic to most, i.e. without the exact words in the phrase it is no longer an idiom and hence cant be taken as such, so the words are crucial). Again, you seem to be confusing the literal idiom and the intended meaning.
Wakaso you take it as such when it applies to humans, i.e. do they also "come crashing down". Please clarify this point exactly.
ths Yes. They fall to the ground eagerly. They fall swiftly as they weep.Are you implying your understanding is we should physically fall swiftly in prostration?!
This is EXACTLY what you are doing.
You are saying that XYZ does not mean ABC, and that shows there are no examples of ABC in XYZ.
No. My point to you is that no context (or by way of logic) of any of these occurrences shows it is a physical prostration, e.g. if in the following verse it said "and when on the ground praise your lord" or something like that then you'd have a point. It is classic circular reasoning
Obviously, simply assuming a claim is true does not serve as evidence for that claim. This is especially clear in particularly blatant cases "X is true. The evidence for this claim is that X is true."
I took 'prayer' to mean dhikr, du3a2, salah, and worship in general?the English word prayer encompasses those things.
Thanks for the convenient clarification, but I repeat please answer it so we can see if your claim of "Sujood is overwhelmingly used in concordance with prayer" is correct or not.
The verse I quoted is not addressing anybody. It is making an example of previous messengers and prophets.
Read it again. I quote verse 1958Those are the ones whom God has blessed from amongst the prophets from the progeny of Adam, and those We carried with Noah, and from the progeny of Abraham and Israel, and from whom We have guided and chosen. When the revelations of the Almighty are recited to them, they fall down prostrating, and in tears.
It is a shame that a non-Arabic speaker such as myself has to correct you on basic Arabic. 1958 is addressing specific people. Not to mention the following verse 1959 makes it blatantly obvious by starting with "then succeeded after them successors who neglected...". But dont believe me, let us know what your expert in linguistics says about this.
Speaking of which, where did I "...has driven you to disrespect the friend that I mentioned above." ? Can you give me an example so I can see what you're talking about.But thanks for making me revisit 1958, as it implies "neglecting/losing the salat/bond and followed desires" is in contrast to "When the revelations of the Almighty are recited to them, they fall in SJD and in tears.". Perfect fit for my view on SJD and on salat/bond.
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Wakas,
Let me quote myself,
I'm more than happy to discuss this and all issues with anybody in this forum, but I'll tell you here and now, that if you weren't taught to speak with respect in your childhood, then you'll learn it now for I'll respond this time, and if you continue with your condescending tone it'll be my last. If you can speak and respond as an adult, then I'm more than happy to continue discussing with you.
Did you think I was joking?
You know exactly what I'm talking about, because it's not your brain that's at fault, in fact your mind is sharp, it's your pride and narcissism. Because to stop doing what you're doing would mean to accept that you've made a mistake and lose face, so instead your going to act blind and continue.
This lack of maturity is why Ayman was able in a few sentences to describe the hypothesis that you weren't able to do in 5 posts. Why? Because you acted like you knew what you were talking about, when it was clear you didn't. You chose to argue, instead of being upfront and saying from the start you don't know Arabic, simply not to lose face.
That's also the reason why you continued to ignore the "kabbahul-sailu-lidhaqnihi" example, which made me think you were choosing to ignore it. You were choosing, but not because it doesn't fit your theory as I thought, but because you had no idea what I was talking about and didn't want to admit it.
"and, of a stone, kabbahu-l-sailu lidhaqnihi The torrent overturned it."
Literal translation Overturned it the torrent to its chin.
Kaf-Ba-Ba = To invert, overthrow, throw one with the face to the ground, throw face downwards, prostrate anyone on (the face), he prostrated him, he bent his head towards the ground, to fall down, turn a thing upside down,
So that's all I'm going to discuss with you this time Wakas, hopefully next time we come to discuss something you'll have matured a bit.
Salaam 3alaykum
Oh! I almost forgot!
It is a shame that a non-Arabic speaker such as myself has to correct you on basic Arabic.
It's not the Arabic that's at fault here, it's your understanding of English.
It's a pity that a non-native English speaker such as myself has to correct you on basic English, but "to address someone" means "to talk TO" someone, not "to talk ABOUT someone" as you seem to think.
The ayah does talk about prophets from the progeny of Adam, but it is not talking TO them.Peace Ayman,
Ayman I'll try to be as quick as possible since I'm in a rush (I'm travelling in a few hours for Easter). So I apologize for that.
Grammatically, the accusative word "sujjudan" in "yakhorruun lil2adhqaan sujjudan" names the action or manner of the verb preceding.
Yes I've noted that many times. No problem with that.
There could be two situations, either you fell in a physical hole or it is an idiom for falling in trouble.
Agreed.
Since it names the action that came before it, then if it was a physical action (i.e., literally falling in a physical hole) then "intact" must also be physical (i.e., with no broken limbs). On the other hand, if "fell in the hole" is an idiom for falling in trouble then "intact" is also an idiom and doesn't mean physically intact (i.e., with no broken limbs).
Agreed.
Because it describes the manner of the preceding action, it can't be literal while the action is idiomatic. So you can't say for example, that "fell in a hole" is an idiom but "intact" is physical meaning with no broken limbs.
Yes, but only in the example you've given.
You were right. It is an idiom (a poetic device). It follows that "sujjadan" names the action of the idiom yakhorruun lil2adhqaan. In other words, it describes how "they fell to the chins". So if "they fell to the chins" is an idiom as you admit then "sujjadan" is also idiomatic and is not physical.
The problem is that it can be an idiom, and still be physical. Because an idiom is anything that doesn't make sense if we translate each constituent element on its own.
And the example you've given doesn't really correspond with the example from the Quran, because it only has oneNow I wasn't able to describe my intuition any better than I've already done, so I googled the term in Arabic?and God only knows why I didn't think of doing that before.
The problem is that we should've started discussing this topic in Arabic right from the start instead of blundering about talking about idioms and not idioms.
Doing a quick search, I found 3 links of interest
http//www.alfaseeh.com/vb/showthread.php?7788-%DE%C7%E1-%CA%DA%C7%E1%EC-%ED%CE%D1%E6%E4-%E1%E1%C3%D0%DE%C7%E4-%D3%CC%CF%C7*
http//www.alhsa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87802
http//www.drmosad.com/index167.htm
The argument goes that it is a poetic device where the part (chin) describes the whole (face)
We have an example in this (from the 3rd link discussing the letter L in Arabic grammar) from the poetry of
(Pre-islamic poety and friend of Imru-l-qays)
The verse is as follows
And the resultant meaning is
( , ( ء ( .The explanation (from the 1st link) is thus
, ( ) ( ) .
(Rotation of prepositions - which the 3rd link goes into detail about)
Then he is asked
.. ( )
And the response
Then he notes on the repetition 2 verses later of yukhirruuna sujjadan
, , , , .
As in, the repetition serves a rhetorical purpose ( ة that I've tried to express all along. To put stress on khrr, and indicate the extent of the khudoo3 and khushoo3 they were feeling.
The first link also makes a note of the grammatical usage of the letter L (rotation of prepositions) as follows
I really apologize for the rushed response Brother Ayman, but I really have to go.
I'll be travelling all week, but I'll have my laptop with me so I'll try to check the discussion as it moves along.Also, I'd like Wakas to put some of that considerable time into translating the discussion in the first link, because it shows how a group of adults can come together and discuss a matter with maturity.
It's ironic that with all the abuse 'traditionalists' get on this forum, as being stupid, barbarians, pagans - they still manage to discuss things with the utmost civility, making them more 'muslim' in their manners and behaviour than most of the 'enlightened' people on this forum.Wassalaam 'Alaykum
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peace ths,
not because it doesn't fit your theory as I thought, but because you had no idea what I was talking about and didn't want to admit it
You do realise I have online access right? So I can look up most Arabic words in google translate or an Arabic dictionary. So, is your above statement more likely, or is it the following...
"and, of a stone, kabbahu-l-sailu lidhaqnihi The torrent overturned it."
Literal translation Overturned it the torrent to its chin.
I had a very good idea on what it meant, but I wanted you to realise and everyone else how Lane translates the obviously idiomatic expression and gives us the intended meaning. The literal words of the idiom are CRUCIAL in getting the intended meaning, so not like your claim of "chin" means nothing/irrelevant, or whatever nonsense you claimed. There is nothing more powerful than seeing the truth for oneself. By asking you to translate it, I was aiming for this, whether it succeeds or not is another story. This example helps my case, not yours. Once again, I recommend re-reading on what an idiom is and how it is used. If unsure, ask your expert friend.
Here is what you said about 1958...
And there are a few verses saying that people should do sujood when hearing God's words
1958 When the signs of the All-merciful were recited to them, they fell down prostrate, weeping. (Kharruu sujjadan)Also,
1958 says, "when the signs of the all-merciful are recited to them, they fell down prostrate, weeping"
By your logic, we would have to weep every time we hear the quran - obviously not, because common sense applies.Because God tells us to physically prostrate upon hearing His words in 8421, 1958, and 3215
So there is the example for you of prophets and messengers crying when hearing God's words.
The verse I quoted is not addressing anybody. It is making an example of previous messengers and prophets.
Read it again. I quote verse 1958Note how you contradict yourself, i.e. you blatantly imply it is applicable to people in general or all the time, then admit it is addressing a specific people. And now you say
but "to address someone" means "to talk TO" someone, not "to talk ABOUT someone" as you seem to think.
The ayah does talk about prophets from the progeny of Adam, but it is not talking TO them.I NEVER claimed the verse talking TO them. I said the verse is referring to a specific people thus what it says is specific to them. Very simple to understand I would have thought.
Interesting how you clarify "to others" and "about others" when you interpret entering the gates in SJD, as SJD to others ;D
This lack of maturity is why Ayman was able in a few sentences to describe the hypothesis that you weren't able to do in 5 posts.
We were discussing many other things other than the grammar. But if it makes you feel any better, here is what I wrote before bro Ayman posted what he said to you
Tell us what your expert in Arabic linguistics says about the construction of 1958 etc in which khrr is a verb in the perfect tense and sjd is a noun. I'd be interested to know the implications of the grammar.
It is a similar construction to the point bro Ayman made.
And as for not being clear about not knowing Arabic, most people on the forum (or at least definitely long term members) know I have very little knowledge of Arabic, but knowledge of Arabic is irrelevant in most cases, as our discussion has shown. If you disagree, why dont you ask any long term member (e.g. bro Ayman) if they feel my lack of knowledge of Arabic holds me back to any significant degree. When a person has access to awesome Quran study tools, knowledge of Arabic is the least of their problems. First and foremost is sincerity/purity of heart, application of logic and thorough research (e.g. cross-referencing). Since I know my Arabic is not good, I stack the odds in my favour of being correct by utilising these things to the maximum when I can. God knows best.
