Taking off the Hijab
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Dear Leyna
But nothing is 100% harassment proof. Wearing 'hijab' is more effective on a ratio basis, as a deterant/preventative measure from harassment than wearing say a mini skirt or so, but this is only if one is defining harassment is a singular term. Harassment can be any unwelcome physical or verbal sexual advance designed to intimidate, harm, or belittle another person. Okay there are some men that get turned on with women in full 'hijab' but that is there sexual fantasy.
Unfortunately, yes men are the perpetrators of the harassment 99.9% of the time but men have also dictated terms to the women from day one whether it be directly or indirectly on what to wear, how to work, how to look, where to work and literally any other thing that they do. Wearing of 'hijab' is derived from the Quranic ayat 3359 and it should be for females to determine what that verse means to them because it is directed at them.
Peace
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But nothing is 100% harassment proof. Wearing 'hijab' is more effective on a ratio basis, as a deterant/preventative measure from harassment than wearing say a mini skirt or so
I hate this comparison ... as if there is nothing between full hijab and miniskirt. There are a million ways to dress yourself properly without wearing either.
but this is only if one is defining harassment is a singular term. Harassment can be any unwelcome physical or verbal sexual advance designed to intimidate, harm, or belittle another person. Okay there are some men that get turned on with women in full 'hijab' but that is there sexual fantasy.
I know how harassment is defined, and I have experienced it personally. Have you? Are you seriously suggesting you know more about it than a woman?
Unfortunately, yes men are the perpetrators of the harassment 99.9% of the time but men have also dictated terms to the women from day one whether it be directly or indirectly on what to wear, how to work, how to look, where to work and literally any other thing that they do.
Exactly. And it's about time to end this.
Wearing of 'hijab' is derived from the Quranic ayat 3359 and it should be for females to determine what that verse means to them because it is directed at them.
I can see no command to cover my head anywhere in the Qur'an, but this discussion was not about the question whether hijab is an obligation or not, so we should not move away from the subject.
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Dear Leyna
Please don't make sweeping statements that because one is a woman they know more about harassment than a man.
I know how harassment is defined, and I have experienced it personally. Have you? Are you seriously suggesting you know more about it than a woman?
Harassment is experienced by both sexes and it is not the exclusive right for women only!
Anyway, let's cut to the chase.
What does 3359 mean?
Like I said before, enlighten me on how believing women may be recognized when they are out in line with the above ayat?
Take your time.
Peace
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2431 And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity, and not to display their charms beyond what may be apparent thereof; hence, let them draw their head-coverings over their bosoms. And let them not display their charms to any but their husbands, or their fathers, or their husbands? fathers, or their sons, or their husbands? Sons, or their brothers, or their brothers? sons, or their sisters? sons, or their womenfolk, or those whom they rightfully possess, or such male attendants as are beyond all sexual desire, or children that are as yet unaware of women?s nakedness; and let them not swing their legs so as to draw attention to their hidden charms And , O you believers - all of you - turn unto God in repentance, so that you might attain to a happy state!
I rest my case.
Peace
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Please don't make sweeping statements that because one is a woman they know more about harassment than a man.
I know how harassment is defined, and I have experienced it personally. Have you? Are you seriously suggesting you know more about it than a woman?
Harassment is experienced by both sexes and it is not the exclusive right for women only!
A right? Lol.
I am not making sweeping statements, simply stating a fact. In Egypt, as I mentioned, more than 90% of the women get harassed regularly, to the extent that it has become a serious social problem. How many men do you think get harassed at the same time?
In recent years, during the Eid celebrations, crowds of young men have been harassing women to the extent that their clothes were torn off, they were groped etc. This happened in public with the police watching and doing nothing. Can you imagine the same thing the other way around -- crowds of young women hunting men down on the street like that?
And, yes, I am sure that most men can not really relate to what it feels like to get sexually harassed. You can tell this from the statements they make when discussing this issue. It is often downplayed, joked about, we're being told we should be happy about male attention and so on and so forth. This, to me, does not sound as if they have understood the problem and what it feels like to be subjected to leering, remarks, and groping, or any other sort of harassment.
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I am not making sweeping statements, simply stating a fact. In Egypt, as I mentioned, sun to the extent that it has become a serious social problem. How many men do you think get harassed at the same time?
what ? you must be kidding, your source of these statistics ???????? .
by the way you said more than 90% which makes that there is no women married, plus other girls not interseted in guys and some are under control from their parents . more than 90% could be 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 and so on , which is impossible . sorry what you claimed is a tale based in L I E S.
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Dear Leyna
Honestly, sweeping statements don't do you any justice. This is known as stereotyping.
How on earth can you state that only women understand harassment merely because they are more prone to harassment! Your comparative dictates that people from the Caucasian race cannot claim to understand racism because they have not experienced it as much as their non Caucasian counterparts, so this right is exclusive to the non Caucasians................. Please.
Secondly, Egypt does not represent the whole of the human race which by the way includes both men and women, neither does it represent the whole of Islam and neither is it the measuring yard stick for anything because most of your arguments are based on Egypt this and Egypt that.
Anyway, would be much obliged if you can answer the question to ayat 3359 please.
Peace
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by the way you said more than 90% which makes that there is no women married, plus other girls not interseted in guys and some are under control from their parents .
I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Women get harassed regardless of whether they are married or not, "interested in guys" or not, and regardless of looks and age.
what ? you must be kidding, your source of these statistics ???????? .
Why should I be kidding? Are you a woman? Do you live in Egypt? No. So what makes you jump to the immediate reaction that I must be wrong or lying? Strange.
Studies have been conducted by the Egyptian Center for Women's rights
http//ecwronline.org/index.php?option=com_weblinks&catid=52&Itemid=110
I know you will now try to find fault with the study, claiming it didn't contain enough samples, or is not geographically diverse enough etc. pp. and you will try to make us believe that the problem does actually not exist, that it's only isolated incidents, being exaggerated by some feminists.
But fact is the problem exists, and it is serious, no matter how much you try to deny it. nope
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Law must 'protect Egypt's women from harassment'
AFP - Egypt's deputy parliament speaker said women needed a law to protect them from sexual harassment which had reached "savage" levels in the country, Al-Destour newspaper reported on Tuesday.
"There must be a law to protect Egyptian society from collapse," the newspaper quoted Zeinab Radwan as telling a conference on sexual harassment on Monday.
"There is a savage attack on Egyptian women with sexual harassment on the streets. It has gone beyond all limits with the harassment of children," she said.
Sociologist Ibtihal Rashad, who also attended the conference, agreed and said "There is no protection for the 18 million (female) citizens of Egypt who are affected."
Women's rights groups in Egypt have long campaigned against sexual harassment and assault in Cairo, accusing police of ignoring the phenomenon.
Convictions are relatively rare in Egypt, which does not have a law defining sexual harassment, but a court in 2008 sentenced a man to three years in jail for groping a woman.
According to the Egyptian Centre for Women's Right, which organised the conference, 83 percent of Egyptian women and 98 percent of foreign women in Egypt had experienced sexual harassment.
The 2008 study said only 12 percent of the 2,500 women who reported cases of sexual harassment to ECWR went to the police with their complaint.
http//www.france24.com/en/node/4949054
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Sexual Harassment in Egypt
Confronting a Pressing Social Problem
According to a study, 98 percent of the foreign women and 83 percent of the Egyptian women have at some point been subject to sexual harassment in Egypt. Often the blame is placed squarely on the shoulders of the victims. Mohammed Ali Atassi reports
Sexual harassment of women in Egypt is one of many social problems that politicians and the media have tended to treat as an instance of individual, abnormal behaviour. Because they treat it as an isolated aberration from proper social norms ? falling outside the path, principles and traditions of a sanctioned way of life ? Egyptian society as a whole does not need to confront it.
It took the courage of a few Egyptian women who exposed their own suffering to reveal the treatment many women routinely experience on the streets of Cairo. Simultaneously, a few civil society organizations, aided by alternative media outlets (blogs foremost among them), launched awareness campaigns aimed at transforming both the understanding and method of dealing with the issue, so that Egyptians would cease to view future incidents as isolated acts of perversion, and instead see them as components of a pressing social problem.
Educational and judicial measures
As such, perceptions of sexual harassment have changed to now frame it as an important issue ? one that demands political, educational and judicial measures, though many of these have yet to be implemented.
The problem of sexual harassment in Egypt comes to sharp focus in the case of the young film director Nouha Rushdi Saleh, who won a legal case against a truck driver who harassed her in a Cairo street. The court handed down a three-year jail sentence to the perpetrator ? and the case blew the cover off the issue in Egypt, where official silence has reigned for years.
Most tourist guidebooks on Egypt, particularly those published abroad, warn foreign women regarding sexual harassment in the street and offer advice on how they should act and react. This could easily suggest that this phenomenon is on the rise. The aggression is hardly confined to foreign women; its victims include Egyptian women from all social and religious classes, veiled and unveiled.
Still, most public authorities and influential social forces ignored the issue until the outbreak of the 2006 riots. During the downtown celebrations of the holiday of Eid al-Fitr, a crowd of hundreds of sexually frenzied young men participated in violent attacks on dozens of women, surrounding them in the streets, groping and even trying to undress them. As police stood by and watched the scene ambivalently, no one, not mothers nor veiled women, were safe from the mob.
Implicit assumptions
Supported by the state media, mainly newspapers, some political figures tried to minimize the impact of the incident by accusing the opposition of exploiting the social and political dimensions of the riot for their own benefit. But if the state authority was ready for a cover-up, the Egyptian blogosphere was ready for a fight. Bloggers published testimonies and played video clips of the scenes in Talat Harb square and the surrounding streets where women were assaulted.
And while Egyptian authorities took action and installed security cameras in the center of the city ? the site of the 2006 riot ? to alleviate the phenomenon, the effort did nothing to prevent similar attacks from being perpetrated in other parts of the city. Incidents spread and in fact intensified in other areas, including Al Haram Street and Al Mohandesseen district, where many girls were assaulted on Eid al-Fitr. This time, however, police successfully arrested many of the attackers.
Unfortunately, many dominant beliefs still place the blame squarely on the shoulders of the victims of sexual harassment. Society makes an implicit assumption that women dress provocatively, or otherwise behave suspiciously to excite men into violently attacking them ? or blame women simply because they are unveiled or don't conform to conservative Islamic dress codes.
Awareness campaigns
If there was one positive result of the 2006 attacks ? which claimed many veiled victims ? it opened the door for public debate about the phenomenon of sexual harassment in Egypt. Civil society organizations and women's groups touched on the fresh social wound, launching a legion of awareness campaigns while the issue was still on citizens' minds.
These campaigns sought to educate women about their own rights and warn both men and women about the severity of these practices and the pressing need to face the problem as a society. Presenting it as a social issue that affects everyone, the campaigns linked the phenomenon of sexual harassment to youth unemployment and marginalization, as well as to the fact that a growing number of young people are marrying at an older age. They also cited the upsurge in sexual repression amidst an increasingly male chauvinist culture, in addition to the breakdown of the family and moral codes, as factors.
The magazine Kalimatina ("Our Word" published the campaign "Respect Yourself," and the Egyptian Center for Women's Rights presented "Safe Streets for Everyone". In cooperation with various media outlets, both print and visual, websites and blogs, these campaigns worked to enlighten Egyptian youth on the danger of such practices and demand the development of laws that deter them. Campaigns also prepared police stations and trained officers for handling sexual harassment incidents.
In the wake of this multi-faceted campaign, a sociological study named "Clouds in the Sky of Egypt Sexual Harassment ? From Verbal Advances to Rape" examined the situation. The study took a sample of 2,500 Egyptian women and 2,020 other individuals (equally divided between men and women), as well as a survey of 109 foreign women. The results were shocking 98 percent of the foreign women and 83 percent of the Egyptian women had been subject to sexual harassment ? and nearly two-thirds of the men confessed to committing sexual harassment against women.
Counter-campaigns
On the other hand, conservative political and religious groups attempted to exploit the worsened incidents of sexual harassment to serve their own special interests. In a manner clearly demeaning to women, these factions attacked women's dignity by pegging the blame for the assaults on the victims. The counter-campaigns even went so far as to collude with those who committed the crimes in an obvious attempt to justify their deeds. Rather than defending the victims or protecting women's rights, these campaigns took the opposite approach.
Two striking examples of this came in the form of posters that the groups hung in some streets and published on many Islamic blogs and websites. The first contains two juxtaposed images. The picture on the right has a green hue and features a woman wearing a veil plastered with mosque-minaret pictures. At the bottom of the picture is a piece of candy carefully wrapped in green, and under it the statement that God will forgive the sins of veiled women. The image on the left, tinted in bright red, depicts an unveiled woman and a man. The bottom shows a red candy in torn paper, with a religious injunction beneath that warns women of moral failure.
The second poster continues the theme of objectifying women, likening her to a piece of candy ready to be eaten, by portraying her as a lollipop that cannot be protected from flies (which means men in the language of these campaigns), save with the wrapper, which translates to the veil. Under the images of two lollipops, one wrapped and the second naked with flies hovering over it, a religious statement professes that an unveiled woman will not be able to protect herself ? for God, the creator, knows what is in her best interest, and thus ordered the veil.
These messages reveal a disturbing mentality and ideology that view women as objects of pleasure and entertainment, who must cater to men's physical needs and fantasies for religion's sake. While enjoining women to cover themselves in public to prevent being sexually harassed by strangers, this belief system seems to limit women's choice when it comes to their own sexuality. These messages imply that the spread of sexual harassment is linked to the absence of the veil, and thus the unveiled woman holds the responsibility for the sexual harassment she encounters.
Interference of justice
The public discussion over sexual harassment could have been confined to the media, the campaigns and the counter campaigns were it not for the courage of the young Egyptian director, Noha Rushdi Saleh. A driver sexually assaulted her while she returned from the airport, even though she was accompanied by a friend.
The assault took place in one of the streets close to her home in the Al Karba district when the driver began swerving his car towards her, extending his hand from the window and violently pulling her towards him. He touched her breasts until she fell on the ground, then he quickly drove away, looking back mockingly at her through his window.
According to Saleh, this glance back was an important factor in her decision to turn to the court and demand her rights. Yelling and feeling great anger that cannot be expressed in words, she followed the driver and was able, thanks to the heavy traffic, to grab the front of his car, all the while shouting and calling for help. Saleh gave an account of her shock at other pedestrians' reaction
"I couldn't believe that some were willing to help and assist the driver to run away in the car, while others told me, 'We will let him apologize to you.' I asked them why I would want an apology. Had he stepped over my feet? With my refusal, they asked, 'What do you need?' I told them I would report him to the police station. Another bystander said, 'I don't understand why you stand here in the midst of men.' There were people on their balconies looking down and watching me as if I were in a film. One woman was saying to me, 'Enough my daughter, forgive him,' but I refused and maintained my position."
Noha's legal background empowered her to insist on her rights, and she succeeded in making a police report and taking the defendant to the criminal court. With the support of her father, she was determined to have the court session be public as a means of shaking the Egyptian populace and judicial system into confronting sexual harassment. Northern Cairo's criminal court, presided over by Judge Shawqi al-Shalqani, issued a judgment on October 21, 2008, which sentenced the defendant Sharif Jouma Jebril to three years in jail and a payment of 5,001 Egyptian pounds as a penalty.
A nail in the coffin of sexual harassment
Noha faced the news cameras and said that the judgment had restored her self-esteem. The judicial system had done her justice, paving the way for all Egypt's daughters to pursue the legal road to claim their rights and render the first nail into the coffin of sexual harassment.
However, the judgment did not prevent Noha Rushdi Saleh from being the subject of a vicious campaign that impugned her credibility. Her critics accused her of distorting Egypt's reputation and of carrying Israeli citizenship, as her grandfather was among the Palestinian refugees who came to Egypt.
But her courage has left a significant mark on Egyptian society, because she insisted on seeing her judicial proceeding to the end, as well as ultimately extracting a judgment in her favour from the Egyptian court. She will be remembered for helping to spearhead the long and difficult battle towards creating a civil society that holds the dignity and rights of women as inseparable from its overall goals and aspirations.
? Al Jadid 2010
http//www.qantara.de/webcom/show_article.php/_c-478/_nr-1013/i.html -
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http//www.islamswomen.com/hijab/hijab_suppression_or_liberation.php
"Jewels of Islam" ... ugh! ) I hate it when people compare women to jewels and pearls and diamonds. yuck
But the world does not revolve exclusively around Egypt. This seems to be the basis of your arguments. Just because it is happening in Egypt does not mean it is 'the be all and end all'.
Of course it doesn't, and I didn't say that. I was using the example of Egypt in order to make a point -- that hijab does not prevent harassment.
In fact, harassment is more of a problem in societies where the majority of women are veiled, while it is much rarer in societies where this isn't the case. Harassment is a problem in almost all Arabic countries with a majority Muslim population. That should give us something to think about, no?
This is my personal observation from living in and travelling to various countries, but I am certainly not the only one who noticed this.
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I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Women get harassed regardless of whether they are married or not, "interested in guys" or not, and regardless of looks and age.
You don't want to understand.
Why should I be kidding? Are you a woman? Do you live in Egypt? No. So what makes you jump to the immediate reaction that I must be wrong or lying? Strange.
I'm not living in Egypt but I have friends in Egypt especially a girl there and she never said that, plus I watch media, and the statistics that you have stated is moot .so think again and fabricate another one.
Studies have been conducted by the Egyptian Center for Women's rights
http//ecwronline.org/index.php?option=com_weblinks&catid=52&Itemid=110hahahah, you took your statistics from this website, that's why " you must be embarrassed now" .
I know you will now try to find fault with the study, claiming it didn't contain enough samples, or is not geographically diverse enough etc. pp. and you will try to make us believe that the problem does actually not exist, that it's only isolated incidents, being exaggerated by some feminists.
oh woow, you're letting the cat out of the bag >> nice rotfl wondering why you are defending your "tale" by making excuses claiming that are not yours .
But fact is the problem exists, and it is serious, no matter how much you try to deny it. nope
Surprise there is no statistics in the website . police
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Bear in mind that I have family members and extended family members that do wear hijab, jilbab, no hijab, no jilbab, skirts, trousers, are christian, jewish, muslim, are born into the deen, are reverts, have left the deen, cult followers, black, white and asian. So I do have a very round mix of different scenarios that I can relate to. So once again, please enlighten me.
Do you have first hand experience? Didn't think so.
As Leyna said, no one is claiming that wearing a scarf makes you more prone to harassment per se, it does make you more prone to harassment from Muslims though.
The status that is given to covering the hair is that if you don't wear it then you play some part in anything that happens to you. The claim is that there is some massive advantage to a headscarf that men won't look your way and you'll have a free life. We are saying that this is NOT the case, from first hand experience. The status of the headscarf is NOT as it's made out to be as exemplified by the fact that wearing it doesn't seem to do the job it's supposed to. If as much pressure was put upon Muslim men to lower the gaze (as instructed by GOD) rather than telling women to cover (as per hadiths) and society placed a stigma upon perverted males instead of telling the women it's her job to cover due to the fact man can't control his desire, we wouldn't have such a problem.
Dear Leyna
But the world does not revolve exclusively around Egypt. This seems to be the basis of your arguments. Just because it is happening in Egypt does not mean it is 'the be all and end all'.
This is known as selective exposure theory.
Peace
How about if I tell you it happens DAILY in London too?
In any case, arguing this point is futile. You men can speak you the Earth but if you cannot bring the Quranic verse to substantiate your claim (ie. Direct command to Muslim women to cover the hair on their head) then it's a pointless argument. You can rationalise it, say that Muslim women are pearls that need to be protected, say that women who don't wear headcover aren't proper Muslimahs you can go on for hours if you wish, but if you can't bring the one verse that we still haven't got to in 300+ replies then it's fruitless. We can give you every argument under the sun, but if you go back to the original post, you will see that the purpose of the discussion isn't the benefits of disadvantages of headcover, it is not about the legitimacy of traditional Hijab and it's not about anything. It's simply about the concerns one might have when removing it when you've decided that it's not a command of God.
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According to a study,
what study ? what is the name of this association or organization that made this study ? and how this study has been done (from geographical areas to women in the whole country or the whole world).
98 percent of the foreign women
what do you mean by 93 % of the foreign women ? care to explain ?
and 83 percent of the Egyptian women have at some point been subject to sexual harassment in Egypt.
aha , what about 90% that you have claimed before . emphisis or lie ? both of them mean the same thing.
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You don't want to understand.
Well, why don't you explain it to me then? What's the use of saying something when it is not understood?
Please explain to me what the marital status of a woman -- or her interest or non-interest in men -- has to do with her being harassed?
I'm not living in Egypt but I have friends in Egypt especially a girl there and she never said that, plus I watch media, and the statistics that you have stated is moot .so think again and fabricate another one.
Oh wow -- you know one girl in Egypt and she never told you about this phenomenon! That surely must mean that all other people and the statistics are lying.
hahahah, you took your statistics from this website, that's why " you must be embarrassed now" .
Surprise there is no statistics in the website . police
I don't see what's there to be embarrassed about. And, yes, the study is accessible on that site and on many other places on the net. A quick google search should get you the results easily.
oh woow, you're letting the cat out of the bag >> nice rotfl wondering why you are defending your "tale" by making excuses claiming that are not yours .
Now you lost me completely. I am making excuses? Where? For what?
I am speaking of my own experience and that of many, many women I know. And it also happens that the phenomenon has been covered quite well by the media, embassies etc., which surely would not happen if it didn't exist as you claim.
Ah, but wait, the media and the people staging demonstrations in Cairo against sexual harassment are all making this up, right? Probably this is all a huge coup staged by the Zionists in cooperation with zealous Western-style femininsts! We should not believe them ... they are just trying to tarnish the image of Muslims and Arabs.
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This is known as selective exposure theory.
PeaceI swear that Girls who they wear Hijab in my country are away from harassement and people respect them, and no one can talks to them just an necessity and they help them, in the other hand the Gilrs who they wear Jeans and fashions clothes, they got their parts of harrassement.
I think this photo will describe what I mean in general
http//up.arab-x.com/pic/nqL18397.jpg
