Taking off the Hijab
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Look, you can call me whatever you wish. It is not up to you to decide who is a Muslim and who is not.
I didn't call you, I've said this is not Muslim woman >>> it's not about you. I mean who agreed with this non-Islamic issues, it is not real Muslim. so you have called yourself .
May God forgive you for all the times you've declared takfir on people. hypno
No, I didn't poit out to this thing, and I'll never do it and God knows what's in my heart, so stop putting words in my mouth . my posts were "are you a Muslim" which is a question , you can say yes or no .
the other one "this is not a Muslim women" which means that I'm talking in general , so I didn't mention anyone from you, I just said that this things are not a Muslim women deeds.This verse speaks of wisdom and the need to see things for yourself before jumping to conclusions. It also speaks about the necessity to listen to your heart.
Your heart can be deceptive, don't forget taking with you your brain .
I see no heart whatsoever in your statements, no mercy or kindness. Just hatred and condescension based on hearsay and prejudices people have been feeding you.
well, you don't know .
Ayisha lives in a Muslim country, she has simply described what she observed.
she observed two or three person or even 10 persons and she said many , what's that supposed to mean and then she said thousands, she was there or what ?
You, on the other hand, have not been to the countries whose inhabitants you so eloquently curse and describe as a bunch of morally depraved people.
I brought statistics not like her .just bla bla bla without any proofs.
So who of the two of you has "travelled through the land" and used their eyes and heart? Certainly not you.
that doens't mean she said thousands (1000000......) which is a huge number . so she lied .
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well, everything is on the board, so read what you wrote, I'm not going to waste my time in bringing your posts.
Exactly. Everything is on the board, and it is clear for everyone except you to see that your accusations were wrong. So why not apologize and let it go instead of insisting?
nope
Wow -- you heard it on TV. That must make it true then. Obviously it never crossed your mind for a second that it is a clear violation of God's instructions in the Qur'an which you supposedly know so well.
could you please stop taking what you want to reply ? I've said I just heard it in TV and I told you what they said , I don't care and for my opinion I don't know and it is not my business . so next time take my whole post or don't and leave it.
What are you talking about? Yes, you said you heard it on TV, and that's what I quoted.
You made a very careless statement about a serious issue when you previously claimed that there is a "necessity" to circumcize girls in Egypt. You also told me that you know "more about the issue" than I do, thus suggesting you have done extensive research on the subject.
Then you retracted and said you "just heard it on TV". The Qur'an (and common sense) tell us that this is in no way sufficient to base a claim on.
Now you are saying you don't have an opinion and don't know anything about the issue; then why did you make those statements in the first place? You are contradicting yourself.
Yeah, I always have statistics and scientific facts . deal with it.
Erm ... no. You keep asking for statistics or scientific proof, then you reject it and say you don't care for science (as in the left hand -- right hand thread, for example). And when asked by others to verify your claims, you hardly ever give solid statistics, let alone credible sources.
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No, I'm just talking about the native people, the immigrants of Muslims are away from my statistics .the statistics talked about women in UK , none of them was a muslim woman.
prove it. How can you say non were muslim? there is a LARGE muslim population in UK so your statistics are not valid unless it takes form the population AS A WHOLEaha , she will lie for what ? these are statistics, she will not get famous if she said I sleep with four men.
YOU said that many lied, not me. ???God knows . I accused just the women in statistics and because they are more than 42% and the population is more than 60.000.000 men and women, so by counting you'll get the majority and we will exclude Muslims women because none of them in these statistics.
Rubbish! you say you want statistics but then claim even the statistics YOU bring are false! Now you claim this doesnt include muslim women!No, I'm right . you're defending them not the word .
Read again. I am correcting YOUR WRONG DEFINITION. YOU are now defending muslims af ANY wrong wherever they are in the world of 'statistics'I don't know what are you talking about ? !!!!!!!!!!!
no, and most have no idea what you are babbling about either.
No, it's not. you could bring more than 4 witness, they will witness theirselves. rotfl
http//www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN1265950
you show me a site that says 16 porn stars in US have aids? ??? How about this
http//www.islamonline.net/English/News/2003-12/01/article08.shtml
"As the number of AIDS patients has risen to a surprising - yet alarming - levels in Arab and Islamic countries over the last few years....
"Saudi Arabia announced Monday, December 1, that 6,787 are living with HIV infection, five times higher than the number of the cases reported by the conservative Islamic kingdom in early August 2002.this england http//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/leicestershire/4889570.stm
i have to tell you that Leicester has one of the largest UK muslim populations ;DI don't say anything without proof . look at yourself .
http//www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/ad/ad384.pdf
http//www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KB24Ak02.html
" How, then, should we explain an eruption of social pathologies in Iran such as drug addiction and prostitution, on a scale much worse than anything observed in the West?"http//www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1298319/
"Muslim countries, previously considered protected from HIV/AIDS due to religious and cultural norms, are facing a rapidly rising threat. Despite the evidence of an advancing epidemic, the usual response from the policy makers in Muslim countries, for protection against HIV infection, is a major focus on propagating abstention from illicit drug and sexual practices. Sexuality, considered a private matter, is a taboo topic for discussion. Harm reduction, a pragmatic approach for HIV prevention, is underutilized. The social stigma attached to HIV/AIDS, that exists in all societies is much more pronounced in Muslim cultures"http//www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,443678,00.html
Sex and Taboos in the Islamic World
"Rabat, Morocco. Every evening Amal the octopus vendor looks on as sin returns to his beach. It arrives in the form of handholding couples who hide behind the tall, castle-like quay walls in the city's harbor district to steal a few clandestine kisses. Some perform balancing acts on slippery rocks and seaweed to secure a spot close to the Atlantic Ocean and cuddle in the dim evening light. The air tastes of salt and hashish. On some mornings, when Amal finds used condoms on the beach, he wishes that these depraved, shameless sinners -- who aren't even married, he says -- would roast in hell."need more?
ok , give me your proof ??? I have put a lot of prrofs about what I said . now is your turn .
You have put NO proof, you have answered NO questions.
Also the last few quotes of MINE you have wrongly attributed to Leyna. Please engage brain before posting.
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the first wasn't about you / I was talking about deeds of non-Muslim woman, so I didn't talk about you whether you're a Muslim or not .
the second is you pretending to be a Muslim, so no relation between the first sentence in the second one . one is an identity not yet specified, the second trying to find an identity .
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the second is you pretending to be a Muslim
I am not sure whether this is the language barrier again, if it's sheer lack of logical thinking, or if you are seriously believing what you just wrote contradicts my earlier post.
If someone pretends to be a Muslim, he or she is per definition NOT a Muslim. How dare you deciding who is a Muslim and who is not?!
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I didn't call you, I've said this is not Muslim woman >>> it's not about you. I mean who agreed with this non-Islamic issues, it is not real Muslim. so you have called yourself .
the only hypocrite in this website I see is you pretending to be a Muslim but you're just trying to ruin Islam (taking off hijab, hadith is rubbish, prostitution, it's ok, being Imama it's ok, ...etc) . this is not a Muslim woman.
No, I didn't poit out to this thing, and I'll never do it and God knows what's in my heart, so stop putting words in my mouth . my posts were "are you a Muslim" which is a question , you can say yes or no .
the other one "this is not a Muslim women" which means that I'm talking in general , so I didn't mention anyone from you, I just said that this things are not a Muslim women deeds.You have decided that those not wearing hijab, not following hadith are not Muslim women, YOU have judged and YOU have decided. The quotes are there for all to see and yes God does know whats in your heart and only HE decides who is muslim or not.
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you want just to give it a meaning >>> a prostitute who has slept with men without marriage, without legal contract between her and him .
I think all Europe Girls and usa Girls have had slept in high school with many guys, but they married another guys . and I've read a statistics that none of the girls in usa are vergin let alone girls in Europe, so I called them prostitutes.
because the term is valid for every woman had slept with man without marriage .
What you gave is not the definition of a prostitute.
Why is it only the women you are focusing on? There are men involved too? What do you make of them?
It takes two to tango.
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What you gave is not the definition of a prostitute.
Why is it only the women you are focusing on? There are men involved too? What do you make of them?
It takes two to tango.
men are just weak animals that cant control themselves, its those uncovered women that are at fault ;D
ahh a world without women would be.............full of trees and animals and no men too bravo
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prove it. How can you say non were muslim? there is a LARGE muslim population in UK so your statistics are not valid unless it takes form the population AS A WHOLE
In the statistics they said UK's women(the native), not UK's immigrants women(non-native).
Rubbish! you say you want statistics but then claim even the statistics YOU bring are false! Now you claim this doesnt include muslim women!
No, sorry they are not false >>> this is from CNN and the biggest organizations in USA and Europe statistics.
Read again. I am correcting YOUR WRONG DEFINITION. YOU are now defending muslims af ANY wrong wherever they are in the world of 'statistics' )
I must defend Muslims communities not defend non-Muslims. read about Islam as I see you know nothing about being in the side of the ennemies of Islam and you're Muslim.
you show me a site that says 16 porn stars in US have aids? ??? How about this
http//www.islamonline.net/English/News/2003-12/01/article08.shtmlhaha, this is just about Saudi Arabia and it is not even a statistics . take this
http//www.cdc.gov/nchstp/od/news/RevBrochure1pdfintro.htm
http//www.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/12/05/health.stds.reut/
you'll be surprised, they are 65 millions , look at Saudi Arabia they are just 6787
i have to tell you that Leicester has one of the largest UK muslim populations ;D
I don't care, but of course Muslims will be away being in the spot lights.
http//www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KB24Ak02.html
this is about Middle east >>>> let me remind you that Islam not all of it in the Middle east. ah and your urls all are not a certified statistics, just a gossip .
" How, then, should we explain an eruption of social pathologies in Iran such as drug addiction and prostitution, on a scale much worse than anything observed in the West?"
I don't care about Iran. I'm talking about you attacking Muslims women and men.
http//www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1298319/
this is not statistics, they are just talking about Islamic countries without even specifying which one of them neither gave a source about their numbers from the countries, so it is again a gossip.
http//www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,443678,00.html
this is not statistics, they are talking about who are forced into sex . and they are talking about a girl her name is "Amal" and talking about another girl from Egypt . where is the statistics .
need more?
hahaha, you didn't give anything, just a gossip from some websites. look at mine they are all certified from organizations of the countries theirselves and from the CNN. yours are tales .
You have put NO proof, you have answered NO questions.
Yeah right, I expect that from you . denying evrything because of your failure of giving proofs.
Also the last few quotes of MINE you have wrongly attributed to Leyna. Please engage brain before posting.
I've corrected it . so is there anything to say other than that ?
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men are just weak animals that cant control themselves, its those uncovered women that are at fault ;D
ahh a world without women would be.............full of trees and animals and no men too bravo
so by defintion your father is an animal and your husband is an animal too . that's make sense about who you are .
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If someone pretends to be a Muslim, he or she is per definition NOT a Muslim. How dare you deciding who is a Muslim and who is not?!
pretending to be a Muslim, doesn't make you not Muslim, we born Muslims all of us >> but some pretend to be Muslim (Islamic) >>>>> a woman defending the rights women from an Europian view not Islam view, is not Islmic woman . sorry I've chose the wrong word Instead of saying Islamic woman, I said Muslim woman.
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pretending to be a Muslim, doesn't make you not Muslim, we born Muslims all of us >> but some pretend to be Muslim (Islamic) >>>>> a woman defending the rights women from an Europian view not Islam view, is not Islmic woman . sorry I've chose the wrong word Instead of saying Islamic woman, I said Muslim woman.
that makes no sense, Islamic woman and Muslim woman are the same.
You now claim we are all born muslims and are STILL deciding who is or not entitled to use that title! You just dont get it do you? STOP JUDGING and STOP MAKING UP THINGS PEOPLE HAVE SAID TO YOUR OWN DESIRES. learn to READ and COMPREHEND
That is my last post to YOU on this subject. INSHA'ALLAH!
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that makes no sense, Islamic woman and Muslim woman are the same.
You now claim we are all born muslims and are STILL deciding who is or not entitled to use that title! You just dont get it do you? STOP JUDGING and STOP MAKING UP THINGS PEOPLE HAVE SAID TO YOUR OWN DESIRES. learn to READ and COMPREHEND
That is my last post to YOU on this subject. INSHA'ALLAH!You didn't reply my posts to you where I abolished all websites you have brought. Gossip things.
and about Muslim and Islamic >>>> are two different meanings . Muslims which could be a Muslim but he does nothing Islamic ..an Islamic is who obeys and he works using Quran and sunnah in his life.
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pretending to be a Muslim, doesn't make you not Muslim
Nonsense. You can only pretend to be something that you are not.
a woman defending the rights women from an Europian view not Islam view
I have no clue what you are talking about here. But I see no contradiction between what you call "European" and what you call "Islamic" viewpoint.
If you want to disrespect women, order them around and treat them like property, go ahead. But don't claim it's in any way "Islamic".
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Maybe this is interesting for some in regards to the original subject. peace
Portrait Emel Abidin-Algan
Faith without the Headscarf
http//www.qantara.de/files/549/58/453e3155c6f7c_Emel_Abidin-Algan.jpg
Her decision caused quite a stir ? in Germany as well as in Turkey. Emel Abidin-Algan, daughter of the founder of the Islamic association Milli G?r?s, has put aside her headscarf after wearing it for over thirty years. The 45-year-old mother of six children spoke with Ariana Mirza about her motives.
"It is absurd to infer about someone's beliefs on the basis of outward appearances!" said Emel Abidin-Algan, expressing her views in a ready to print form. She has experience in articulating her positions. A few years ago, the former chairwoman of an Islamic women's association took part in Germany's headscarf debate ? and offered some rather unconventional suggestions.
First, Emel Abidin-Algan and a group of Berlin women designers created fashionable hats as an alternative to the controversial headscarf. Then, in early 2005, she took off her own headscarf for good.
Since then, there have been many changes in the life of the mother of six. She dances with an Irish folklore group, practices martial arts in a mixed Aikido team, and goes to night school. Emel Abidin-Algan continues to take care of her three youngest children, who still live at home, together with her husband, although they have decided to separate. Her conservative husband refuses to accept his wife's new attitudes.
Assuming more responsibility
Only after immersing herself in the study of the Koran and its revelations, she came to a new way of seeing things, said the 45-year-old. Since then, Abidin-Algan has become a proponent of an individual's right to form their own opinion ? and not only with respect to one's choice of head covering. She would like to encourage others to investigate the Koran and the historical context of its revelatory message.
Abidin-Algan is also calling on Muslim women to assume more responsibility. That doesn't mean, however, that "all those who wear headscarves must now take them off." Rather, women should be free to choose the type of covering they wear according to their own individual, natural modesty. "Personally, I only go swimming with leggings under my swimsuit. Those are the limits to my personal sense of modesty."
As it turns out, Emel Abidin-Algan is not a feminist. Her primary concern is to call into question the validity of scholarly Koran interpretation for modern times. "A legalistic Islam now holds sway, and not the Islam of the Prophet," she claims argumentatively.
In order to support her claims, the headstrong Muslim brought along an abundance of material. The remarkably youthful looking woman busily leafs through her documents. She suddenly pulls out one of the manuscripts in which she presents her position in-depth. "Here, this is particularly important to me!" she says, energetically pounding her index finger on the page.
Opposing the dogma of the "punishing God"
The issue of body and face covering is just one of many topics that occupies her. She opposes the widely held dogma of the "punishing God" and thinks that such an image can cause great harm in the upbringing of children.
According to Abidin-Algan, the greatest and fundamental mistake is to theologize belief and to convey it through a hierarchical structure. "We need fewer religious people and many more believers," is her personal conviction. Raised in Germany by an Iraqi father and Turkish mother, she considers herself cosmopolitan. She regards many superficial religious rules as stemming from regional customs.
How has the Muslim milieu reacted to Abidin-Algan's views? It is a delicate subject, as her name is closely linked with Milli G?r?s, an association that is under surveillance by the German security services. It was Emel's late father, the doctor Yusuf Zeynel Abidin, who founded the German section of this controversial organization in the mid-1970s.
"My father would have understood my intentions," says the daughter assuredly. To date, however, the Muslim association has tended either to ignore or to be taken aback by her behavior. Abidin-Algan, who is currently completing evening courses to become a public relations consultant, would have preferred constructive discussion.
The peacemaking wisdom of Islam
She hopes that in the future, more young Muslim women who are brought up in the West will engage in an open dialogue with the majority population. She feels that any kind of isolation, whether external or internal, is harmful.
"These young people can use their education and multicultural backgrounds to discover the peacemaking wisdom of Islam, instead of simply emulating tradition without reflection." In the end, the Muslims in a non-Islamic society "should be living examples of the faith," and thereby spread a positive image of Islam.
Yet, what are the responsibilities of non-Muslims? Does Abidin-Algan place no demand upon the majority German society? "Of course," comes the prompt answer. Germans should show more interest in finding out about Islam. "Even those in government circles hardly have any basic knowledge about the religion."
In addition, for many Germans the issue of terrorism has strengthened an anti-Islamic stance, which prevents them from approaching Islam with an open mind. There is a great deal wrong with Western society, sums up Abidin-Algan. She describes apathy and frustration as direct consequences of consumerism. It is high time for people to devote themselves to immaterial values. "Like faith and love, for instance," she says smiling.
Ariana Mirza
? Qantara.de 2006 -
But Wakas, I can give you a website condoning the dress code
http//www.islamswomen.com/hijab/hijab_suppression_or_liberation.php
Peace
It is irrelevant if a website condones or disproves. If we are to have an evidence based discussion, then the Quran and what can be solidly deduced is what matters. I strongly recommend reading the article I linked to, as it refutes the above article rather easily.
http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/dress-code-women-veil.htmYour link simply repeats the same old nonsense. In fact, we can even look to history and see there was NEVER an obligation for women to cover their whole body or head etc in Arab countries. There was a mix. See the following book for example
http//www.amazon.com/Arab-Dress-Short-History-Islamic/dp/9004113738I am currently reading Muhammad Asad's autobiography, he also mentions it in his travels in the region.
Everyone knows it, yet it is funny how only recently it has apparently come to be politicised and taken as an obligation. That is one of the reasons there are variances amongst schools of thought, on other than the basics. It is utter nonsense. Personally, I dont have a problem with anyone wearing veils etc but I object if they say this is in Quran etc. My reply "prove it".
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Everyone knows it, yet it is funny how only recently it has apparently come to be politicised and taken as an obligation. That is one of the reasons there are variances amongst schools of thought, on other than the basics. It is utter nonsense. Personally, I dont have a problem with anyone wearing veils etc but I object if they say this is in Quran etc. My reply "prove it".
And that's the underlying theme here ... like so many others here have said 'where the heck does it say to cover your head/hair in the Qur'an'?! There's also the issue of why a Muslim slave woman's awrah is not the same as a free woman's.
