Lord of the two easts, lord of the two wests, a quantum mechanical revelation?
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OPF
It has been a long while since I have really come back to the quran. In that time I lost hope in the great reading unfortunately. Thankfully however I have (God willing!) not majorly transgressed any boundaries imposed by the all-seeing
Whatever you said in your post in explanation to above is strongly debate able but the good thing is your above quote.
Rajah
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It is indeed strongly debateable so debate it! What's wrong with this interpretation, what's right about it?
I put forth this interpretation more from the perspective of intuition than from pure logical cross referencing so surely it must be put to the test.
What else is it interpreted to be? The prime reason I believe this to be the case is because of 558. From my perspective, I simply put two and two together. The god of reality created reality in a certain way. If he writes a book I then expect him to say certain things about reality because of the way I have been brought up. And the god of the quran appears to say these things. It is hence obvious in my eyes that the god of the quran is the god of reality, for the reasons talked about in this and the original post.
Also another reason I came to this conclusion is that I saw many such similar verses which all make sense if you think that the quran is referring to such subjects. These verses are all the "in the x and x, there are signs for those who x" types. Things such as the rotation of the night and day for instance.
Another thing is the context. Given the placement of the verses the entire interpretation flows, one from another. A full on analysis would be nice from someone who knows a lot more Arabic.
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It has been a long while since I have really come back to the quran. In that time I lost hope in the great reading unfortunately. Thankfully however I have (God willing!) not majorly transgressed any boundaries imposed by the all-seeing.
Peace OPF, was reading this the other day and happy to see you made it...
291 Alif-Lam-Mim
292 Do people think that they will be left alone because they say "We believe," and will not be tested. -
Another thing is the context. Given the placement of the verses the entire interpretation flows, one from another. A full on analysis would be nice from someone who knows a lot more Arabic
confused confused
Before we arrive at any concljsion let us hear your understanding of 7040 and its relation to the Ayat you mentioned,
Noon de Plume are you the same Nun de plume but why only 67 posts in your credit? were you banned too?
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It has been a long while since I have really come back to the quran. In that time I lost hope in the great reading unfortunately. Thankfully however I have (God willing!) not majorly transgressed any boundaries imposed by the all-seeing. This thread will be useless for those who disbelieve in the quran. For those who have the ability to suspend disbelief and for those who truly believe, I hope this can be a major clarifier. The reason being, you must look at it from this perspective God as described in the quran (the infinite, all knowing, all seeing, all pervading, etc) exists, and "he" it is who has created our reality. Note that I do not mention some verses here such as 5522 because I don't know what they are talking about and so it would cloud any picture I am trying to paint.
So 14 billion years into this reality, we exited our mother's vaginas and have been told "God exists, this is who he is"! You were not alive or conscious in the preceding years, nobody alive today knows for sure what happened before they were alive let alone a second before they were alive, let alone 2 seconds before they were alive, let alone 2000 years before they were alive! In each of those seconds is an incredible amount of information exchange going on. Each second contains 1.85x10^43 "instants" of time, a vastly unimaginable number! To know what is going on, you would have to compute in reverse what happened on Earth and that is beyond our limits, there is not a human on Earth who can deny this fundamental truth. Yet you are born into this century. Everyone at some point has heard, "there is a God". For those who haven't, there is no blame on them thanks to the all-Seeing, all-Knowing.
What mainly brought me back is the surah ar-Rahman. I find that there is no comparison between the quran and any other book on its exposition as to what is actual physical reality.
Consider the concept of infinite energy. This does not need a location, time, anything. Why, you ask? Because its very nature, of infiniteness, means that anything and everything goes.
In a state of oneness, nothing much is going to happen. However in this oneness is contained an infinite amount of information, that is to say that an infinite number of potential realities (configurations of energy) exist within this oneness. If you wish to create a reality from this energy, you must split it into multiple parts smaller than the whole and let them interact with each other in a given way such as to produce the reality of your choice. You already have an infinite amount of energy at hand so there are no worries there. So the next thing you must do is control how to split that energy to create the reality you wish to create. This splitting can be described using mathematical rules.
An interesting thing about our universe is that in physics, most quantities are considered as relative to something. 1 metre length is basically 1 * (the metre), 5kg is 5 * (the kilogram). All of these are RELATIVE measures, you must have something to compare them against. However there are a bunch of fundamental parameters to the universe such as the fine structure constant, proton to electron mass ratio, etc. Any number you can observe where the units cancel out and you get a definite number, no "number relative to another quantity", that is a fundamental parameter of the universe. I think what God refers to in these verses is clearly this measure, he is simply saying that there are certain parameters he has set. Why?
He created the balance so that we exist and having now existed, that we should not transgress this balance. Quite a simple and logical step forwards. After all, if those fundamental physical parameters did not have the values they did, we would not exist. Why do we exist? To live, learn, attain peace and give in equal balance.
Why are these verses in such close proximity to each other? I used to read them and think "God is talking bollocks again". I realised that I was evidently talking a load of bollocks myself. To me, these verses evidently refer to a fundamental rule of this universe. I believe that when God says "Lord of the Two Easts and Two Wests", it is clearly referring to the complex plane. One pair of East and West is on the real line and the other East and West pair is on the complex line. East and West can be represented on any coordinate system as + or -. It is hence obvious why it is said "two easts and two wests", there is no "north and south" on the complex plane because that requires two dimensions whereas we have two sets of 1 dimension here, there are only two easts and two wests!
From this reasoning, 5519 obviously and logically follows. We now know, thanks to Erwin Schrodinger that the entire universe is basically a giant ocean of possibility, a wavefunction. To calculate what is going to occur in reality, you must sum up the wavefunctions of yore from the start to the last instant of time. You take the resulting wavefunction and multiply it by its complex conjugate and shazzam, all the imaginary parts disappear and you now know what is probably going to happen in reality, all your numbers are now REAL!
We ride these waves of possibility regardless of what we do. Despite the fact that nothing is ever known for certain to us, we can make statements to the tune of "there is a very high possibility that this will happen". If you were to graph this (they are known as probability amplitudes) some of the peaks on the graph would be gigantic, that is to say there is a near certain possibility that energy will be distributed in this region in whatever manner, I believe 5524 refers to this. At each instant of time, every form of energy in the universe asks a question, that question is "What's going on here?". And who can they ask but their creator, who else could concievably know?
I hope this has been an enlightening post.
Peace.Why if the Koran contains this new scientific miracle did you only discover this miracle afterwards? And why didn't science as an institution occur in Islamic society with such an abundance of science in the Koran? Also if you do a search for the word north in the article you see that word numerous times, east and west - zero times (although I can see how you saw the similarity between the Koranic verse and the maths). But I am not familiar with maths at the level the wiki article talks about so trying to understand the article to understand your claim was fun - thank you.
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Peace,
Noon de Plume are you the same Nun de plume but why only 67 posts in your credit? were you banned too?
Yes, noon wa al-qalam and banned myself ... lol
Returned under a different pen name to correct a few things especially on inheritance verses.
"There is no physical universe! Nothing but a vast collective halucination!" -- The Serial Universe 1938 By J. W. Dunne
He also had another interesting work which I've experianced pertaining deja vu/time travel
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Experiment_with_Time
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confused confused
Before we arrive at any concljsion let us hear your understanding of 7040 and its relation to the Ayat you mentioned,
This is precisely why I stated that it would be better for someone with a good knowledge of Arabic to clarify. That could be said to mean many things.
070.040
YUSUFALI Now I do call to witness the Lord of all points in the East and the West that We can certainly-
PICKTHAL But nay! I swear by the Lord of the rising-places and the setting-places of the planets that We verily are Able
SHAKIR But nay! I swear by the Lord of the Easts and the Wests that We are certainly ableI do not see any contradiction between this verse and the interpretation I put forth. If in surah 55 it is talking about a certain something and it says "two easts, two wests" and in another surah it is talking about another something involving many easts/wests, there is still no contradiction. Going by Yusuf Ali's translation, it would literally be a case of god saying "I swear by the positive and negative numbers".
Why if the Koran contains this new scientific miracle did you only discover this miracle afterwards? And why didn't science as an institution occur in Islamic society with such an abundance of science in the Koran? Also if you do a search for the word north in the article you see that word numerous times, east and west - zero times (although I can see how you saw the similarity between the Koranic verse and the maths). But I am not familiar with maths at the level the wiki article talks about so trying to understand the article to understand your claim was fun - thank you.
Where was this ever stated to be a miracle? Rather, it is blindingly obvious (seen from my eyes, at least). As I stated, I assume there to be a "god" who constructed reality (just a hypothetical god that we can refer to as "god" for convenience), and there is a GOD in the quran who claims to be the "god" that constructed reality. It is befitting of this GOD/"god" that he might make simple but very powerful statements about the reality that he himself constructed. The all-powerful does not need to make his presence obvious through silly little magical miracles such as "I wrote a book while everyone was too stupid to understand and now 1400 years later, I show you what I actually mean, now believe or burn!". The signs of our creator are present everywhere in the universe, a so-called "miracle" would never make me believe in the quran and I'm the one pointing this out to you! The god of reality must surely know the numbers behind the works and again, the God of the quran states this in 7228.
North and south is identical to east and west in 1 dimension, you could say "ogg and blvorg" for all it matters as long as you are consistent with the labels. It is only a case of +/-. Also they are referring to objects on the complex plane which is an abstract representation of the reality which is simply that you have two numbers, x and i, which vary between +/- infinity. You will also find that where north and south is mentioned in the article, they are referring to 3 dimensions (the surface of a sphere).
One actual verse I see that would disagree is 3512.
Why the whole interpretation is relevant is this. We live in a reality which is getting weaved into existence by the flow of this ocean of possibility. At the time of the big bang, the "stitches" would have been identical to the size of the universe so there is no room for stillness. However nowadays, the uncertainty in position and momentum (the stitches) is very tiny so everything appears to stay where it is.
As said in the quote by Noon de Plume, it is essentially the case that it is a collective hallucination. That is to say, everything asks of everything else "what should we see?" and the "best" outcome is chosen each and every time. In essence you as a being with free will have a choice of possible realities to make real. What kind of reality would you like to observe?
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brother OPF
Before we arrive at any concljsion, let us hear your understanding of 7040 and its relation to the Ayat you mentioned,
This is precisely why I stated that it would be better for someone with a good knowledge of Arabic to clarify. That could be said to mean many things.
Still not got why you stated that, any way.
You like christian missionaries have skipped some verses from the surah, may I know why?
May be if we consider those verses too, the surah comes out to be a simple one5514 He created the human from aged clay, like the potter's clay.
5515 And created the jinns from blazing fire.Now consider this particular Ayat
5522 Out of both of them you get pearls and coral.
5522There cometh forth from both of them the pearl and coral-stone.5523 Which of your Lord's marvels can you deny?
And then this one
5531 We will call you to account, O humans and jinns.
5533 O you jinns and humans, if you can penetrate the outer limits of the heavens and the earth, go ahead and penetrate. You cannot penetrate without authorization.And now consider the Ayat
5517
Lord of the two easts and the two westsespecially after 5514 and 5515
Raj-ah
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Peace to all,
my understanding of the "Lord of the two easts, lord of the two wests" is simplier.
If the earth is flat and static you got one East and one West, it is a simple 2 dimension system. Therefore, for any point on the map we have (One E, One W).
Now if the earth is a sphere, we are in a 3 dimensional system, rotating on an axis. Therefore for any point on earth we have (INF E, W INF) where INF is infinite. Because the earth is rotating, one point on earth in 24h has an infinite Easts and Wests. Try to imagine a sphere, take a point and make the sphere rotating on an axis then you will see for every instant (of the rotation) you get several easts and wests.
Now we know P = (INF E, W INF) so what is the INF of E, INF E =? it is simply equal to W --> INF E = W
and INF W = EThe result is for every point on earth (INF E, INF W) we get (W, E) and in the meantime (E,W) which finaly can be written as
P (E,W)
(W,E)which is 2 Easts and 2 Wests for every point on Earth!
And this very little verse proves 2 things the world is a sphere shape and is rotating!!!!
Peace
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herbman
Than please explain 7040?Raj-ah
Peace,
please read carrefully
Now if the earth is a sphere, we are in a 3 dimensional system, rotating on an axis. Therefore for any point on earth we have (INF E, W INF) where INF is infinite. Because the earth is rotating, one point on earth in 24h has an infinite Easts and Wests. Try to imagine a sphere, take a point and make the sphere rotating on an axis then you will see for every instant (of the rotation) you get several easts and wests.
Peace
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Peace,
At any point in time there are always two Easts and two Wests;
http//www.petrileskinen.fi/Actionscript/VertexShading/GlobeRenderMain.html
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Rajaah
I already stated in the first post in this thread that I do not have the answers to those verses you listed because it is beyond my knowledge. My intentions are simply to put this interpretation to the test and if it is inconsistent with what the quran is trying to say then I have no qualms whatsoever. It is a simple matter of rolling dice, eventually one will land on a six. As I said, my interpretation is more intuitive than anything else.
Herbman
I don't understand exactly what you mean. So for each point on earth, if you go infinitely to the east, you arrive at the west and vice versa? I mean, on a sphere you cannot define an absolute east or west since it loops in on itself. Can you please clarify?
As a person not learned in Arabic I am not qualified to make statements about things that are arabic. However I am not stupid and I do have the ability to say 2+2=4 and not 5 and this is what I exercise. So I tend to use intuition when understanding the great reading, the core assumption being that the God of reality is identical to the God of the quran. Of course this springs up a multitude of individual logical snippets/questions that must then be checked against reality.
An interesting thing is in many verses, God states that "It will be a single Shout " and thereafter shall judgement commence. What is a shout? A vibration. When we talk to each other, we hear words, phrases, sounds etc. In reality however what actually happens is that the air merely moves left and right (or East and West p) in a certain pattern and our brains decompose that pattern into its components and make out the words. This is what I mean by the intuitive approach I take, it is then self evident to me that this "Shout" that God talks of is quite literally that, a vibration that will cause things to change. So 791-7 makes obvious sense and it is obvious as to why God swears by the things he does. 796, a vibration is sent out through the universe. 797, the aftershocks of that vibration come into action. Does it get any clearer?
What I understand is that God has a plan, He created this universe for a reason. We as humans play some kind of part in the grand plan and our reward is the life of eternity , which is not currently attainable for whatever reasons, God knows best. Our part in the plan is merely to follow a certain predictable pattern that happens to result in peace.