hadiths of Salat?
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Come on, Abu Huraira himself, with his blessed memory is telling you that he went to the prophet who then gave him an impeccable memory!
The prophet SAW cured him for a reason, and that reason is obvious now!
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Dear Shumali
You seem to be getting your wires crossed. Bukhari did not teach the majority of Muslims how to pray. The Prophet PBUH taught the Muslims how to pray in line with the Quran (stand, bow, prostrate). This chain of teaching has been handed down generation after generation after generation. The Prophet PBUH, the Sahaaba, the Tabi'een, Imaam Abu Hanifa, Imaam Shafii, Imaam Malik, Imaam Ahmad, Imaam Jafer Al Sadiq, Imaam Hasan, Imaam Hussein and so forth, all came before Bukhari and were well versed in Arabic and Quran than either you or me and had no problems with the Quran and Teachings of the Prophet PBUH! So where the hell are you getting your claims of Bukari-ism from? How did all the above pray before Bukhari came along and how do you prove it?
Most, if not all the PM's believe that the Prophet PBUH only delivered the message and then walked away. You guys believe that he did not teach anything therefore there is nothing to follow from his example as it is all in the Quran. Or am I wrong in my analogy?
You will no doubt quote
320 Thus, if they argue with thee, say, "I have surrendered my whole being unto God, and all who follow me!" - and ask those who have been vouchsafed revelation aforetime, as well as all unlettered people, "Have you surrendered yourselves unto Him?" And if they surrender themselves unto Him, they are on the right path; but if they turn away - behold, thy duty is no more than to deliver the message for God sees all that is in His creatures.
And I will in turn quote
567 O APOSTLE! Announce all that has been bestowed from on high upon thee by thy Sustainer for unless thou doest it fully, thou wilt not have delivered His message . And God will protect thee from men behold, God does not guide people who refuse to acknowledge the truth.
465 But nay, by thy Sustainer! They do not believe unless they make thee a judge of all on which they disagree among themselves, and then find in their hearts no bar to an acceptance of thy decision and give themselves up in utter self-surrender.
4105 BEHOLD, We have bestowed upon thee from on high this divine writ, setting forth the truth, so that thou may judge between people in accordance with what God has taught thee. Hence, do not contend with those who are false to their trust,
542 those who eagerly listen to any falsehood, greedily swallowing all that is evil! Hence, if they come to thee , thou mayest either judge between them or leave them alone for, if thou leave them alone, they cannot harm thee in any way. But if thou dost judge, judge between them with equity verily, God knows those who act equitably.
548 And unto thee have We vouchsafed this divine writ, setting forth the truth, confirming the truth of whatever there still remains of earlier revelations and determining what is true therein. judge, then, between the followers of earlier revelation in accordance with what God has bestowed from on high, and do not follow their errant views, forsaking the truth that has come unto thee. Unto every one of you have We appointed a law and way of life. And if God had so willed, He could surely have made you all one single community but in order to test you by means of what He has vouchsafed unto, you. Vie, then, with one another in doing good works! Unto God you all must return; and then He will make you truly understand all that on which you were wont to differ.
On one hand Allah SWT is saying that the Prophet PBUH's job is to only deliver the Quran and on the other hand Allah SWT is saying to the Prophet PBUH to judge between the people! Which one of the 2 stances would you take. Was it a delivery only, or was it delivery and judgement? Is this clear and easy to understand in your eyes?
Anyway, just to please your request, you can read The Book of The Characteristics of Prayer in Bukhari in order to verify if it contradicts the Quran or not.
Here, one more point needs clarification with regards to the authenticity of hadith. You and your buddies seem to believe that a Hadith is only authentic if it is related in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim which you obviously disregard in totallity even if it was authentic. No problem.
This is a misconception. The authenticity of the Hadith is based on its chain of narrators, irrespective of whether it appears in any one of the Sihah Sitta (the famous six authentic compilations of Hadith) or in any other compilation besides these. Please bear this in mind.
Moving onto your approach, I posted the following in another post and will be grateful if you can take a stab at it and confirm your position
Dear Ayisha
Ok. Let's put the Hadith to the side (again) and clarify your position.
Please be kind enough to tell us what Islam and the perfected religion means to you
53 ...................This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favor unto you, and have chosen for you as religion AL- Islam. Whoso is forced by hunger, not by will, to sin (for him) lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. -
Do you accept the concept of Salaah?
Do you accept the concept of Pilgrimage?
Do you accept the concept of Zakat?
And if so, please be kind enough to confirm how do you or would you perform any of these duties (with references please).
If the Qur'an is the only authentic source of Guidance, why did it never explain how to offer salah, although it repeatedly talks about its importance, associating it with eternal success and failure? What would we think of a communication that repeatedly emphasizes a certain act but never explains how to perform it? There are only two possibilities. Either it is a terrible omission (and in that case it cannot be from God) or another source for the how-to information is provided and it is a terrible mistake for any recipient to ignore that.
5156 I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me.
Furthermore, do you believe or accept that the Prophet PBUH performed Salaat and how did he do it if your answer is in the affirmative? Did he Stand, Bow and Prostrate and on what basis do you get your answer? Or do you believe the meaning of Salaat to be metaphorical and not a physical action?
How many wives did the Prophet PBUH have and did he have any children? (ok, this may not be relevant for you, so you may not answer if you so wish).
Do you believe or accept in the Prophet PBUH's status as an example, a teacher and explainer of the Quran?
What is the call for prayer and where do we find it?
The Quran as it is, is not compiled in the same order as it was revealed. Why is this so? Also how do you know, which ayats were revealed when and for what reason? And are there any ayats in the Quran that are specific for certain events or people that occured before our time? i.e. Badr. What was all this about and what happened?
Additionally, in one of your previous posts you stated that you pray as you were traditionally taught but without the Tashahud or something along these lines. Why would you accept the prayer aspect from the source of Hadiths even though you claim to be a firm Hadith Rejector? Please tell me and show me where you learned the concept of prayer? To accept one and reject the other source on the basis of reliability defies reason. You are therefore forced to either seek direction from the Hadith indirectly or to contradict the claim that the Quran is 'self sufficient and self explanatory' by adding additional clauses or to change the meanings of the worships altogether.
To say that Allah promised to protect only Qur'an but not Islam is being as ridiculous as one can get. Let's ignore the obvious question regarding the point of this Heavenly act. The question is if Islam has been corrupted for over 1200 years because of Hadith following and its true teachings have been lost, how can anyone claim to be its follower? Moreover, Qur'an says "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost" 385. How are we to follow the religion acceptable to Allah (Islam) if it was not to be protected and has been corrupted from the offset thus nullifying the claim?
If we follow the religion of our forefather Abraham, then how can Abrahams way be preserved considering he came for a limited period, for his nation only? Whereas the Prophet PBUH was sent for all mankind at a later date and until the Last Day not be preserved. According to you, the Prophet PBUH'S way has been corrupted but Abrahams way has been preserved? How do you prove or trace anything about Abraham and his way without any historical records or chain of narration at best?
Did not Allah SWT decide to protect the Quran because previous scriptures and calls to God were corrupted by man which would also apply to the period of Abraham?
Finally, the million dollar question that you and your buddies need to answer is why did no one for over 1300 years question the teachings of the Prophet PBUH? No body, in his right mind, could or did question this practice.
It was not that some genius had found flaws in the hadith study that had eluded the entire ummah for thirteen centuries now was it? or maybe it was and the following 'knights in shining armour' arose to lead you out of the darkness and into the light - Egypt (Taha Hussein), India (Abdullah Chakralawi and Ghulam Ahmed Pervaiz), and Turkey (Zia Gogelup).
Peace
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Give it up dude, this guy is long dead and a dead man cannot judge a thing. Nor can a dead man testify in any court proceedings.
In reality there is no concievable way to verify that "for over 1300 years nobody questioned the teachings of the Prrophet PBUH" given that you only exist in the here and now, you have not been alive prior. This means that your subjective reality is defined purely by the mental conditioning imposed on you by your parents and those around you.
You yourself do not know for sure what is directly behind you, or in the other room, or outside your door in the last 10 seconds let alone what happened over the last 1300 years. If a single hadeeth can be fabricated then every damn hadeeth can be fabricated, the quran explicitly states that it is protected by an omnipotent force and it provides its own means of proving its consistency; the method proposed by the quran works very well and that is what makes it scientific, it is a concrete and testable method. No such protection is offered by the all-knowing for ridiculous hearsay. In my experience, the quran is the sole standing rock of firmness floating in a constantly changing sea of bullshit.
Ironically, the very thing that provides the most credence to the quran's claim of pure protection and infallibility is the fact that despite all the attempts at distortion, nobody has ever changed its very words and nobody ever can. All these hadeeths exist for a reason, the agents of shaitan seek to distort and distract from that which is true. They cannot change the truth itself and amongst this truth is the quran. So they seek instead to direct those gullible souls into hell by turning them to words other than those of our eternal originator.
If we are to go by the hadeethist's claim, then why has nobody even managed to challenge the foundations of Judaism and Christianity despite the fact that these have lasted millenia longer than "Islam" and the followers of the former are bestowed with power no "Muslim" will ever taste and the latter always have been greater in number than "Muslims"?
The truth is that people are inherently stupid, they do not challenge majority belief and it is not for them to do so. If life is a chessboard then the majority of people are pawns.
I have a friend who has no idea of what is contained in the quran. However I can see clearly that he is a "muslim" (one who submits to the will of our lord), many a time we have talked and he has said something only for me to say "that is found in the quran", his response is that truth is self-evident, that the creator guides whom he wills and leads those he wills astray.
It disgusts me that some people cling desperately onto things that will never benefit them in the hereafter and attack those who wish to find their way to God for themselves, seeking to distract them from a right way towards a path of inherent uncertainty, conjecture and evil.
Allah never made a promise to protect a religion made by men, what he has protected is his very SYSTEM/deen and there is no changing that. The laws of physics (then chemistry, then biology, then neurology, then logic) cannot be changed.
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Dear Shumali
You seem to be getting your wires crossed. Bukhari did not teach the majority of Muslims how to pray. The Prophet PBUH taught the Muslims how to pray in line with the Quran (stand, bow, prostrate). This chain of teaching has been handed down generation after generation after generation. The Prophet PBUH, the Sahaaba, the Tabi'een, Imaam Abu Hanifa, Imaam Shafii, Imaam Malik, Imaam Ahmad, Imaam Jafer Al Sadiq, Imaam Hasan, Imaam Hussein and so forth, all came before Bukhari and were well versed in Arabic and Quran than either you or me and had no problems with the Quran and Teachings of the Prophet PBUH! So where the hell are you getting your claims of Bukari-ism from? How did all the above pray before Bukhari came along and how do you prove it?
Um, Shumali asked a simple question. He wanted you and/or thereformer to show us some hadiths.
Shumali asked "Which Hadiths tell how to pray salat? I need exact references from Hadiths."
Can't you just give us that?
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Give it up dude, this guy is long dead and a dead man cannot judge a thing. Nor can a dead man testify in any court proceedings.
In reality there is no concievable way to verify that "for over 1300 years nobody questioned the teachings of the Prrophet PBUH" given that you only exist in the here and now, you have not been alive prior. This means that your subjective reality is defined purely by the mental conditioning imposed on you by your parents and those around you.
You yourself do not know for sure what is directly behind you, or in the other room, or outside your door, let alone what happened over the last 1300 years. If a single hadeeth can be fabricated then every damn hadeeth can be fabricated, the quran explicitly states that it is protected by an omnipotent force and it provides its own means of proving its consistency; the method proposed by the quran works very well and that is what makes it scientific, it is a concrete and testable method. No such protection is offered by the all-knowing for ridiculous hearsay. In my experience, the quran is the sole standing rock of firmness floating in a constantly changing sea of bullshit.
and here you stumble yes
let me tell you one thing; we don't see hadith and quran two different entities, when god said he pretects quran that means he protects quran and whatever explains the quran obviously, otherwise saving quran without saving its meaning is meaningless! don't you think my friend?
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and here you stumble yes
let me tell you one thing; we don't see hadith and quran two different entities, when god said he pretects quran that means he protects quran and whatever explains the quran obviously, otherwise saving quran without saving its meaning is meaningless! don't you think my friend?
The explanation has never been lost. Hadeeth do not explain quran, quran explains quran. If you do not see hadeeth and quran as two different entities then you are clearly blind, there is no changing that.
I'll tell you one thing good sir, playing devil's advocate for too long will end up in you being devil's advocate in the same way that pretending to be a smoker will result in an inevitable addiction to smoking.
Also
Finally, the million dollar question that you and your buddies need to answer is why did no one for over 1300 years question the teachings of the Prophet PBUH? No body, in his right mind, could or did question this practice.
Tough shit, it's getting questioned now. Better late than never.
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Dear Andya Primanda
English may not be your first language, but please read and digest what I said in my previous post
Anyway, just to please your request, you can read The Book of The Characteristics of Prayer in Bukhari.
Surely, one who has the capability of posting on the web and reading books can find this Chapter in the Bukhari Hadith and read for themselves.
And moving onto OPF.
You seem to be in a quagmire. Not only do we accept the Quran in it's totality, but we also accept the Prophet PBUH and his teachings in totality. Whereas you only accept the Quran in it's totality but not the Prophet PBUH or his teachings. This is the fundamental difference between us.
And this is where you become stuck because you cannot perform the task you are created to perform. Worship.I will ask you a very simple question which no doubt every other 'traditionalist' has been asking your kind for over a century and you still cannot answer
Where in the Quran does it show you how to pray despite the reality that Salaat has been referred to explicitly and strongly more than 700 times in the Quran? Period.
In each of these verses, one of the aspects of prayer is covered. Many of the verses talk about the details of prayer, such as how to come prepared for prayer (ablution), prayer in travel, and other such matters but never mentioning or showing how it is to be done?
If you think that prayer is a metaphorical phrase, then there is nothing more to discuss on this topic with you.
Peace
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The explanation has never been lost. Hadeeth do not explain quran, quran explains quran. If you do not see hadeeth and quran as two different entities then you are clearly blind, there is no changing that.
I'll tell you one thing good sir, playing devil's advocate for too long will end up in you being devil's advocate in the same way that pretending to be a smoker will result in an inevitable addiction to smoking.
Also
Tough shit, it's getting questioned now. Better late than never.
but first we should agree on who the "devil" is? only then we will be able to see who the devil's advocate is, good friend
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You seem to be in a quagmire. Not only do we accept the Quran in it's totality, but we also accept the Prophet PBUH and his teachings in totality. Whereas you only accept the Quran in it's totality but not the Prophet PBUH or his teachings. This is the fundamental difference between us.
And this is where you become stuck because you cannot perform the task you are created to perform. Worship.I will ask you a very simple question which no doubt every other 'traditionalist' has been asking your kind for over a century and you still cannot answer
Where in the Quran does it show you how to pray despite the reality that Salaat has been referred to explicitly and strongly more than 700 times in the Quran? Period.
Salam brother. Are getting mixed up with 'worship', 'salat' and 'prayer'?
There are numerous hadith relating to prayer but only 4 relating to 'salat' which I found very interesting
Volume 8, Book 75, Number 368
Narrated 'Abdur-Rahman bin Abi LailaKa'b bin 'Ujra met me and said, "Shall I give you a present? Once the Prophet came to us and we said, 'O Allah's Apostle ! We know how to greet you; but how to send 'Salat' upon you? He said, 'Say Allahumma Salli ala Muhammadin wa 'ala Ali Muhammadin, kama sal-laita 'ala all Ibrahima innaka Hamidun Majid. Allahumma barik 'ala Muhammadin wa 'ala all Muhammadin, kama barakta 'ala all Ibrahima, innaka Hamidun Majid."
Volume 8, Book 75, Number 369
Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-KhudriWe said, "O Allah's Apostle This is (i.e. we know) the greeting to you; will you tell us how to send Salat on you?" He said, "Say 'Allahumma Salli 'ala Muhammadin 'abdika wa rasulika kama sal-laita 'ala Ibrahima wa barik 'ala Muhammadin wa all Muhammadin kama barakta 'ala Ibrahima wa Ali Ibrahim."
Volume 8, Book 75, Number 370
Narrated Ibn Abi AufaWhenever somebody brought alms to the Prophet the used to say, "Allahumma Salli 'Alaihi (O Allah! Send Your Salat (Grace and Honor) on him)." Once when my father brought his alms to him, he said, "O Allah! Send Your Salat (Grace and Honor) on the family of Abi Aufa."
Volume 8, Book 75, Number 371
Narrated Abu Humaid As-SaidiThe people said, "O Allah's Apostle ! How may we send Salat on you?" He said, "Say Allahumma Salli 'ala- Muhammadin wa azwajihi wa dhurriyyatihi kama sal-laita 'ala ali Ibrahim; wa barik 'ala Muhammadin wa azwajihi wa dhurriyyatihi kamabarakta 'ala ali Ibrahim innaka hamidun majid."
can you explain why they are praying to the prophet, if salat means prayer? or why they are worshipping the prophet?
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Dear Andya Primanda
English may not be your first language, but please read and digest what I said in my previous post
Anyway, just to please your request, you can read The Book of The Characteristics of Prayer in Bukhari.
Surely, one who has the capability of posting on the web and reading books can find this Chapter in the Bukhari Hadith and read for themselves.
And moving onto OPF.
You seem to be in a quagmire. Not only do we accept the Quran in it's totality, but we also accept the Prophet PBUH and his teachings in totality. Whereas you only accept the Quran in it's totality but not the Prophet PBUH or his teachings. This is the fundamental difference between us.
And this is where you become stuck because you cannot perform the task you are created to perform. Worship.I will ask you a very simple question which no doubt every other 'traditionalist' has been asking your kind for over a century and you still cannot answer
Where in the Quran does it show you how to pray despite the reality that Salaat has been referred to explicitly and strongly more than 700 times in the Quran? Period.
In each of these verses, one of the aspects of prayer is covered. Many of the verses talk about the details of prayer, such as how to come prepared for prayer (ablution), prayer in travel, and other such matters but never mentioning or showing how it is to be done?
If you think that prayer is a metaphorical phrase, then there is nothing more to discuss on this topic with you.
Peace
I don't think I have been brought up to perform the task of "worship". I did not grow up as a child and start standing, bowing or prostrating towards a stone cube constructed by a bunch of Arabs I had never seen or heard of. However I did grow up submitting to the will of my creator, doing exactly as his intentions. The individual cells of my body all submit to the will of my creator and I am powerless to stop them.
You do not accept the "prophet PBUH or his teachings". In reality, you accept that which has been ascribed to him by the likes of Bukhari et al and you know this. Given that the veracity of these compilations have no firm backing, they only stand on conjecture which our quran warns against, the question of following them alongside quran is out of the picture before it can even be asked.
Everything in the universe submits to the will of our creator, whether they like it or not. Of those who like it, they are promised a good reward. Of those who wish to disobey, they are in complete loss.
Your questions are unanswerable. Don't think this is because you have any upper hand of any sort. The reason they are unanswerable is that they are paradoxical. You are assuming 2+2=5, I am assuming 2+2=4 and then you are saying "prove (2+2)*2=10 if you believe 2+2=4. Which of course is a ridiculous assertion. You cannot find any "salat prayer" in the quran because evidently the quran does not ask for us to bounce up and down on the ground five times a day. Tell me, salat is surely something that is meant to purify the soul and bring it closer to our creator, the all-knowing, the all-pervading. And it is assumed that your hadeethist leaders are the foremost in upholding this "salat". So why is there no "Islamic state"? Surely our creator, the all powerful who has constructed this incredibly intricate reality we live in without a breath can prescribe a salat that bestows clarity and purity on those who uphold such a method. Yet the majority of muslims are far astray and there is much discord.
Do you think that when the earth spins in its orbit every day, it asks the sun for guidance? And the sun then brings it a chain of narrations stretching from Pluto to Mars to tell the Earth that the speed of light is perhaps 3x10^8m/s or in Saturn's opinion, it is actually 2.5x10^8m/s? Then when the earth decides that it knows the damn speed of light for itself, does the sun then tell the Earth "you know nothing, go ask a wise islamic scholar"? No, they "ask" their creator directly and the all-knowing informs them of exactly what they are meant to do, and they do it. As a result, we are here. Show me where there is a difference in opinion between scholars as to the values of the fine structure constant, proton to electron mass ratios, gravitational constant, and I will show you a bunch of idiots that are just as misguided as hadeethist scholars.
It is self evident from my study of the physical reality we live in that there is an incredible balance with which the universe has been constructed. I have had a mere glimpse into the rules of physics and I am already certain in faith and absolutely awestruck by the sheer thought that such a universe must have taken to build. This balance exists right down to the very angular momentum of the planet, if it was any other way then life as we know it could never exist. Show me where your hadeethist methods create such a balance that is reflected in the structure of society at large. For 1400 years, the supposed "word of the Holy Prophet" has been around and time and time again it has failed horrendously in achieving the very aim of islam, to create a state of peace, harmony and submission to the will of the all-seeing. It is at the point now that the very unbelievers you despise can remove any silly hadeethist that exceeds their limits from the planet at the push of a button, with some very rapidly moving metal and plastic explosive.
And is it not ironic that they came to this very state of power and magnificence by following those quranic ordainments where the all-knowing implores us to travel the earth, observe his creation, try to understand it? While the despicable hadeethists simply spent years living the high life of this world and bickering amongst themselves about what colour towel is makruh to shower with?
I'll say one thing, hadeethists have been questioning others who may have been rightly guided for a very long time. How about the hadeethists as a whole shut the fuck up for a second and let themselves and their actions in this world be questioned? Surely it is better for you to be questioned now than to face the wrong that you (and indeed us) have all done in the ultimate questioning of the hereafter? Why are you so afraid of questions from mere mortals yet so fearless about a questioning from the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing, all-hearing?
While I fear for my life and worldy things, there is not an iota of existential fear in me, zilch. I doubt many hadeethists can say the same. You don't get to this state via blind faith or following the herd.
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they all pray 5 times a day, and the basic structure of the prayers is exactly the same. standing-bowing-prostrating....etc. thanks
Teeet wrong... unlike the sunnis, the shiites 'obligatory prayer' are 3 times a day, in the morning, in the afternoon, and at night.
And the way they prostrate is slightly different.They have a different 'set of authorized hadiths', and besides the 'supposedly saying of Muhammad' they also reckon the 'supposedly saying/sermon of Ali'.
http//www.nahjulbalagha.org/
While sunnis also reckon the 'supposedly saying of Muhammad's certain companions' which the shiites doesn't attest to.And of course the sunnis and the shiites clerics generally hates each other guts, always accuse the other as 'infidel' and so on...
Salam / Peace
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I am back from my picnic and visit to the Science Museum in London UK. A brilliant exhibition '1001 Inventions - Discover the Muslim Heritage in our World' at the museum. Definitely worth a visit for anyone in the vicinity.
Moving swiftly onto the comments on the post.
Dear OMF
A sore nerve has obviously been touched, thus your emotionally charged responses. Ouch!
Anyway, what part of the English language do you not understand? Like I said before, we accept the Quran in it's totallity and the existence of Allah SWT and we never required the application of physics to determine Allah SWT's presence. And yes, the Quran does tell us to bounce up and down (it's known as salaat by the way), mentioned over 700 times to be exact, but you beg to differ. You have to take this stance of denial, otherwise your whole way of life and thinking in relation to the Quran falls apart. Like I said before, 'if the Qur'an is the only authentic source of Guidance, why did it never explain how to offer salaat, although it repeatedly talks about its importance, associating it with eternal success and failure? What would we think of a communication that repeatedly emphasizes a certain act but never explains how to perform it? There are only two possibilities. Either it is a terrible omission (and in that case it cannot be from God) or another source for the how-to information is provided and it is a terrible mistake for any recipient to ignore that'!
Just look throughout history from the time of the Last Revelation (the Quran) until now and you will see milions and millions of people bouncing up and down 5 times a day who according to you have been brainwashed on a mass scale in order to do it despite not being told to do it even though it is clearly mentioned in the Quran to do it but you refuse to do it...... STFU!
How the f--k can you submit to the Will of your Creator when you take the stance of Iblis from the offset and refuse to accept the instructions in the Quran?
Furthermore, if the Prophet PBUH in your eyes is totally irrelevant thus your warped views, then why was he chosen to deliver the message for all mankind? I asked before and will ask again. Why was not the Quran delivered overnight in one lump sum, placed on a rock in book format for every Tom, Dick and Harry to pick up and interperate as they seem fit? Why was there a need for a Human Messenger and why did it come down in stages (23 years)? Go on, make some cock and bull story up trying to justify your stance.
Enough of the Bukhari this, Bukhari that, Hadith this, Hadith that, repetative parrot syndrome.
Either put up or shut up!
Dear Ayisha
In response to your query, please read the following ayat
3356 Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.
Is this ayat telling us to pray to or worship the Prophet PBUH or is it telling us to send blessings upon him which is totally different to worshipping? What would be your understanding of this ayat?
Peace
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And yes, the Quran does tell us to bounce up and down (it's known as salaat by the way), mentioned over 700 times to be exact, but you beg to differ.
Selam Zulu12
Can you define your understanding of 'salaat' with its meanings in different parts of the Quran.
Peace
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I am back from my picnic and visit to the Science Museum in London UK. A brilliant exhibition '1001 Inventions - Discover the Muslim Heritage in our World' at the museum. Definitely worth a visit for anyone in the vicinity.
Moving swiftly onto the comments on the post.
Dear OMF
A sore nerve has obviously been touched, thus your emotionally charged responses. Ouch!
Anyway, what part of the English language do you not understand? Like I said before, we accept the Quran in it's totallity and the existence of Allah SWT and we never required the application of physics to determine Allah SWT's presence. And yes, the Quran does tell us to bounce up and down (it's known as salaat by the way), mentioned over 700 times to be exact, but you beg to differ. You have to take this stance of denial, otherwise your whole way of life and thinking in relation to the Quran falls apart. Like I said before, 'if the Qur'an is the only authentic source of Guidance, why did it never explain how to offer salaat, although it repeatedly talks about its importance, associating it with eternal success and failure? What would we think of a communication that repeatedly emphasizes a certain act but never explains how to perform it? There are only two possibilities. Either it is a terrible omission (and in that case it cannot be from God) or another source for the how-to information is provided and it is a terrible mistake for any recipient to ignore that'!
Just look throughout history from the time of the Last Revelation (the Quran) until now and you will see milions and millions of people bouncing up and down 5 times a day who according to you have been brainwashed on a mass scale in order to do it despite not being told to do it even though it is clearly mentioned in the Quran to do it but you refuse to do it...... STFU!
How the f--k can you submit to the Will of your Creator when you take the stance of Iblis from the offset and refuse to accept the instructions in the Quran?
Furthermore, if the Prophet PBUH in your eyes is totally irrelevant thus your warped views, then why was he chosen to deliver the message for all mankind? I asked before and will ask again. Why was not the Quran delivered overnight in one lump sum, placed on a rock in book format for every Tom, Dick and Harry to pick up and interperate as they seem fit? Why was there a need for a Human Messenger and why did it come down in stages (23 years)? Go on, make some cock and bull story up trying to justify your stance.
Enough of the Bukhari this, Bukhari that, Hadith this, Hadith that, repetative parrot syndrome.
Either put up or shut up!
As far as I am concerned, the question of "what is salat in the quran" is a VERY different story to "is following hadeeth part of the quranic way", there are two very different questions. Of course my response is going to be slightly emotionally charged, do you think I'm going to sit around watching hadeethists try to justify all sorts of ridiculous cruelty to others and associate that with the word of Allah? No thanks!
We have in our hands a very beautiful, elegant, concise and spectacular book that puts into words certain things in a single sentence that would normally take humans several libraries to bring forth. It is difficult for me to comprehend the mind that wrote the quran, it certainly is not of human origin. Even so, it does this within the framework of Arabic tongue. However the ahadeeth are very different, they are also in the arabic tongue but their human origins are self-evident, it is very easy to look at hadeeth and think "someone sat down and thought this crap up".
As stated before, you pre-assume that the quran is talking about your "ritual salat" and then you ask me, where does the quran tell you how to do it. That is patently absurd, it is obvious to me that there has been some major distortion of the quranic interpretation going on, mostly via hadeethist hands. Logically the entirety of "ahadeeth" are discounted when the quran states things such as "In which hadeeth after this will they believe" and "Conjecture is not comparable to truth". And consider that it states that the universe was created in definite truth, not conjecture. As I said before, there are no "chain of narrations" involved in deducing anything in physics. If Allah does not leave uncertainty in the planet's orbit (a minor deviation from correct values would kill us all), why does he supposedly leave uncertainty and conjecture for his foremost followers?
There are only two possibilities. Either it is a terrible omission (and in that case it cannot be from God) or another source for the how-to information is provided and it is a terrible mistake for any recipient to ignore that'!
There is a third possibility which lies outside of your reality as a hadeethist, that God the almighty, all-knowing leaves nothing from his book so there is no omission, rather you are on a wild goose chase so you end up having to find a goose elsewhere.
How the f--k can you submit to the Will of your Creator when you take the stance of Iblis from the offset and refuse to accept the instructions in the Quran?
Hilarious. I do accept those clear instructions I see in the quran, every last one of them and while following them, not once I have gone wrong, such is the wisdom & foresight of the almighty. I hold back where my knowledge is limited but I have not gone wrong yet. I sure as hell do not need an Islamic Mullah telling me that I must use a yellow towel when I shower or else I shall burn in hell. Would you like to double check what the stance of iblis is? Iblis entices people to follow the ways of their fathers and avoid questioning them.
006.114 Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah? And He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) made plain; and those whom We have given the Book know that it is revealed by your Lord with truth, therefore you should not be of the disputers.
006.115 And the word of your Lord has been accomplished truly and justly; there is none who can change His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
006.116 And if you obey most of those in the earth, they will lead you astray from Allah's way; they follow but conjecture and they only lie.
006.117 Surely your Lord-- He best knows who goes astray from His way, and He best knows those who follow the right course.
The messenger is not the judge in our affairs, it is clearly Allah who judges what is right and wrong. The messenger passes this on. He does not speak of his own accord yet we see so much of this going on in ahadeeth, he even casts magic spells on Abu Hurairah to conveniently ensure that his ahadeeth will be known for all. And who relates this to us, Abu Hurairah rotfl
Again, my prime reason for rejecting ahadeeth is clear. When I meet a fellow "Muslim" and we do something, I don't see why we should ever come to a difference of opinion about something which is in the book. Yet when I followed the hadeethist path, this would come up the majority of time and the end result was always "I follow the opinion of that madhab while you follow this one". Alongside this I spend most of my time studying physics and I don't find any conjecture, there is complete certainty about an actual result. The difference being however that in physics, there is room for conjecture when you hypothesize something. In doing so you assume that you DO NOT KNOW what is the reality. You put this to the test and then the reality is apparent, nobody holds on to the plum pudding model of the atom long after it has been disproven. However when it comes to quranic ordainments, the almight says there is no room for conjecture or hypothesizing in his book and I will accept that over any lesser knowing mortal's opinion, thank you very much.
I am fed up of following the conjecture of those who clearly are not qualified to judge in matters of God yet claim to do so.
One more thing, the ahadeeth contain many things contradictory to reality. If we were to narrow these down and delete all the bullshit, then we would essentially arrive at a list of sayings that are commonly obvious just as the truth in the quran is commonly obvious. I would have no problem following such hadeeth because they correspond to the path of Allah. However I am not prepared to trawl through thousands of pages of conjecture to find these gems when I have a small book where each sentence is a gem in itself.
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I am back from my picnic and visit to the Science Museum in London UK. A brilliant exhibition '1001 Inventions - Discover the Muslim Heritage in our World' at the museum. Definitely worth a visit for anyone in the vicinity.
Glad you had a good day. never been to the Science Museum, thats one I always wanted to visit though. Londons Museums are fantastic but I would need a week ;DLike I said before, 'if the Qur'an is the only authentic source of Guidance, why did it never explain how to offer salaat, although it repeatedly talks about its importance, associating it with eternal success and failure? What would we think of a communication that repeatedly emphasizes a certain act but never explains how to perform it? There are only two possibilities. Either it is a terrible omission (and in that case it cannot be from God) or another source for the how-to information is provided and it is a terrible mistake for any recipient to ignore that'!
Quran does repeatedly mention salat and majority of the verses call you to 'establish the prayer' or 'establish regular prayer', yes it is associated with eternal success or failure if you dont esablish regular prayer. There is no reason to explain 'how to perform it' as there are many verse which show to stand, bow or prostrate to Allah, the angels did it and they also did it to Adam. the prostration is a sign of submittal.
I have been up studying most of the night and found this verse interesting
2441 Seest thou not that it is Allah Whose praises all beings in the heavens and on earth do celebrate, and the birds (of the air) with wings outspread? Each one knows its own (mode of) prayer and praise. And Allah knows well all that they do.So everything even birds know the mode of prayer and praise.
The thing that struck me, at about 4am this morning, was that the prayer is NOT for Allah, it is for us. Many verses says 'establish the prayer' Abraham 'established the prayer' Moses 'established the prayer'. He tells you to recite from the book, He tells you to remember Him. This is what the prayer is for, to have a time to remember Allah and ONLY Allah, to praise Him and ONLY Him and when established regular prayers are performed along with charity and doing good, there can be no room for evil or falling into disbelief.
Now if you have a particular 'ritual' and verses and extras that the entire ummah says exactly the same, there is NO reflection about what you are saying and there is no one to one communication, you are not remembering Allah and instead fall into 'reciting by rote' while your mind is thinking about other things. Hadith will tell you the same and even how to get back on track of remembering Allah while you pray. This is because there is no thinking and reflecting on the prayer but just 'doing' it as many muslims do, reciting by rote everything they are told. your physical body is doing the 'actions' and your mouth utters 'the words' but your heart, your mind, your soul is elsewhere because the other bits of you know what to do as a ritual. Basically, its empty. thats why there are no 'rules' on HOW to perform the prayer and what to say, its left to YOU as its YOU that should be thinking and reflecting and praising Allah in YOUR way, from YOUR heart. Not some ritualistic rendition of what is claimed to be 'The Prayer'. Moses, Abraham and all other prophets 'established the prayer' but did they do it exactly like you do? No of course not, because they knew that immitation does not mean worship as its only immitating someone else and not from YOUR heart.
Now tell me that your mind NEVER wonders off somewhere while you do your ritual prayers.
The hadith dont actually tell you what to do either. There are some that say they knew what he was saying by the movement of his beard, come on! ;D Quran does tell you to recite from the book and remember Allah, is that so hard you need a set of someone elses hadith to tell you HOW?
Dear Ayisha
In response to your query, please read the following ayat
3356 Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.
Is this ayat telling us to pray to or worship the Prophet PBUH or is it telling us to send blessings upon him which is totally different to worshipping? What would be your understanding of this ayat?
Peace
thank you and I agree it is saying send blessing on him as Allah and the angels do
