The virginity industry
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While discussing with hadith mongers who think that one can't live without hadith, I put to some of them, close friends, the question whether they know how many are the apertures in front of one's wife and which one is the true "recepticle" and whether there is some hadith which tells you to make use of which of the two apertures, nine out of ten married for years men did not know that there are two openings.
I almost didn't ask this question but I have to, for clarity's sake...which two apertures in front of one's wife are you talking about exactly?
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This was NOT what I was trying to say. Please stop putting words into my mouth.
Ok, sorry .
This is a board about Islam, so naturally many of the issues being discussed are about things related to traditions or circumstances in Muslim countries. It is not necessary to put a disclaimer under each and every post stating that this or that issue does not only happen in Muslim countries!
It was just a point of view that these things not in Muslims countries, they are world widely . when people read, they will think that these things are in muslims countries only .
Interesting. TV might be a good method because this way you can reach people who can't or won't read.
Yes, sure but please keep privacy not showing the face of the women .
Secondly -- part of the problem are the glaring double standards being applied to men and women. If men wouldn't insist their bride is a virgin although they themselves have sexual experience, there would be less need for women to worry about bleeding and hymen restoration and all that stuff. And this sort of attitude is found in all classes and among people with all levels of education. So the issue is not only about education, it's also about patriarchal tendencies in a society.
I think God was clear in that subject that the zania will be with zani or mushriq and that zani will be with zania mushriqa
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peace
It was just a point of view that these things not in Muslims countries, they are world widely .
when people read, they will think that these things are in muslims countries only .
The starting post was about "the virginity industry", the business of hymenoplasty, virginity faking devices, women being killed for not being virgin etc. These days, this is a problem mainly in Muslim / Arab countries.
I guess nobody here believes it is an inherently "Islamic" problem, but we should not close our eyes and respond with denial and knee-jerk reactions if attention is brought to the fact that there is a problem that occurs mainly within Muslim societies.
Instead we have to take a look at the possible causes ... for example
~ Did certain patriarchal traditions and opinions which degrade women find their way into interpretations of Islam?
~ How come so many (young) Muslim men have a double standard when it comes to the issue and feel perfectly justified in doing so?
~ Why do so many parents watch their daughters' every step and are anxious that she will have no sex whatsoever before marriage, while tolerating it that their sons sleep around, have a girlfriend etc.?
~ Why do these things become an issue in societies where the majority of people claim to be religious?
~ How can any human being believe it is right to kill another human being in order to "restore family honour"? Where does this very strange notion of honour that sees sex as a much bigger crime than murder, come from? How can people actually believe this is what God wants? At which point have traditions, twisted thinking and religion been mixed up in order to make people feel this way?How can this be addressed? On an scientific level (i.e. educating people about the facts and myths surrounding the hymen), on a religious level (educating people that the Qur'an prescribes the same standards for men and women), or both?
It is time that people in some countries stop defining the worth and morality of a woman by whether she is a virgin or not. It is time that people stop placing the honor of a whole family between the legs of its female members AND believe this is somehow in accordance with religion. It is time that societies and the judicial systems in some countries stop treating people who commit "honor based violence" with so much lenience. And so on ...
So the whole virginity issue is just one of the many manifestations of a serious and ever growing problem in certain parts of the world and in the ummah.
Yes, sure but please keep privacy not showing the face of the women .
You don't have to show anybody's face in order to explain the issue. http//www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/verkleidung/costumed-smiley-009.gif Imho it would be enough to get someone who is being taken seriously by people to sit in front of the camera and talk about.
As much as I abhor fatwas, I think the late Ali Gomaa gave out an important signal when he issued the fatwa I posted earlier on, and he said some very important things. Now how about scholars, imams, religious teachers addressing the issue too? I am sure that would have an impact on people in the long run. But instead, most of them are too busy getting all in a huff about women possibly being able to do with their bodies what they want to do and conjuring up images of the devastating effect this might have on society, while conveniently ignoring the behaviour of men in this regard.
Maybe Heba Qutb should address the subject too in one of her TV apperances ... ;D
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The urethra is not normally large enough for a man to get in! its the 'urine pipe' and the opening is small like the opening of a mans is small!
The fact was mentioned about presence of two openings, which to a large number of men, educated and scholarly included, is not known, how would they know the delicacies of delicate membrane. The virginity issue bothers only a small number of men the world over, mostly who are themselves mentally sick or are themselves debauch.
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http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FileFemale_anatomy.png
I was scratching my head about this two aperture business. The anatomical drawing is not to scale. The urethral opening is so small that it is almost invisible ( to the untrained eye).
As for the general debate. It is a sad fact that hymen restoration industry's clients are virtually all muslims. As for the educated muslims now that would be a good idea (copied from Gandhi).
It is a difficult issue and there are no easy answers. However I feel as women increasingly become more empowered, which ever society, the problem will diminish. It is not about educating men (very difficult task indeed) but liberating women.
regards -
No, don't worry we are going to learn how to detect the difference
.and!
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The virginity industry
http//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8641099.stm
these women consider themselves as playful things for men and they are trained to think like that; they don't need any small operation, they need a big one! elektro elektro elektro
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The problem isn't that too many men care about women's chastity. The problem is that too many women don't. If women reacted with disgust at a man's bad behaviour then there would be proper balance.
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these women consider themselves as playful things for men and they are trained to think like that; they don't need any small operation, they need a big one! elektro elektro elektro
These operations are big in many Islamic countries among muslim women who are going to be married. A westerner would have no reason to have this done as she wouldnt be divorced or killed if she didnt bleed on her wedding night. In upper Egypt they still hang the bedsheet out for all to see she was a virgin. There are fatwa to say a man can divorce her is she wasnt and her family would most likely kill her by stoning.
no these are far from women who consider themselves playful things for men, these are scared for their lives girls who even if they had been raped would be killed for bringing dishonour on the family.
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These operations are big in many Islamic countries among muslim women who are going to be married. A westerner would have no reason to have this done as she wouldnt be divorced or killed if she didnt bleed on her wedding night. In upper Egypt they still hang the bedsheet out for all to see she was a virgin. There are fatwa to say a man can divorce her is she wasnt and her family would most likely kill her by stoning.
no these are far from women who consider themselves playful things for men, these are scared for their lives girls who even if they had been raped would be killed for bringing dishonour on the family.
is this ture? I've never heard of such practice before!
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Stoning in Egypt? And by whom? That is ridiculous.
I know Egyptian women who were not virgins on marriage nor were reconstructed. It is not fun, but nobody killed them or did anything to them. I think there is a lot of exageration. By the sound of it looks as if killing women was a general thingan they were killed every day and every non virgin died for it. It is obviously not so by far.
Salaam
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Peace,
I think it's hard to pity a woman who sneaks around and has sex outside of marriage (on purpose, not being raped).
242 The man who has sex outside of marriage and the women who has sex outside of marriage lash each one of them 100 lashes. You must not be taken by compassion for them concerning an obligation of the god.
It's terrible that anyone punishes sex with death, but aside from rape it's really hard to feel sorry for women who dated and gave it up voluntarily, especially women in the "romantic city of Paris" - it sounds like they got a little too romantic. Moreover, I really don't think that's typical of Egyptian society. My best friend is Egyptian and he would think the claim was far-fetched.
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Yes Hamsa it is true.
Egypt is not just Cairo. Upper Egypt (south) is like another planet to Cairo and in the villages here this happens, maybe not by stoning but there are honour killings for this kind of thing. withing the last 5 years only the FGM rate in Upper Egypt has started to lower from 99% of girls. Many girls bleed to death on their wedding nights because they have been stitched up badly, one I know of happened here within the last 2 years. Even the short time this was illegal girls were still being butchered by old women with razors. The law made a show of prosecuting doctors that still did it then the law was changed back. Many men wont entertain marrying an uncut girl here and the mothers call it 'a little decoration'. A man also killed his daughter 3 years after she had married a man he didnt approve of, for dishonouring him. Women here in upper Egypt HAVE to be virgins on the wedding night unless she has been married before, then no one wants to marry her. A man has a right to send her back to her family as 'faulty goods' if she not a virgin, she has then brought dishonour on her family big time and if her father doesnt do it her brothers will.
Huruf, this is not a daily occurance to my knowledge, but it does happen and it happens a lot, it doesnt alway get to any media though. I am talking Upper Egypt villages here and the mentality that is in them, which in no way resembles Cairo or Cairo mentality. Upper Egypt is very much a different world.
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Yes Hamsa it is true.
Egypt is not just Cairo. Upper Egypt (south) is like another planet to Cairo and in the villages here this happens, maybe not by stoning but there are honour killings for this kind of thing. withing the last 5 years only the FGM rate in Upper Egypt has started to lower from 99% of girls. Many girls bleed to death on their wedding nights because they have been stitched up badly, one I know of happened here within the last 2 years. Even the short time this was illegal girls were still being butchered by old women with razors. The law made a show of prosecuting doctors that still did it then the law was changed back. Many men wont entertain marrying an uncut girl here and the mothers call it 'a little decoration'. A man also killed his daughter 3 years after she had married a man he didnt approve of, for dishonouring him. Women here in upper Egypt HAVE to be virgins on the wedding night unless she has been married before, then no one wants to marry her. A man has a right to send her back to her family as 'faulty goods' if she not a virgin, she has then brought dishonour on her family big time and if her father doesnt do it her brothers will.
Huruf, this is not a daily occurance to my knowledge, but it does happen and it happens a lot, it doesnt alway get to any media though. I am talking Upper Egypt villages here and the mentality that is in them, which in no way resembles Cairo or Cairo mentality. Upper Egypt is very much a different world.
thats really sad!
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http//www.aqoul.com/archives/2005/12/hymen_reconstru.php
http//www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/egm/vaw-gp-2005/docs/experts/khafagy.honorcrimes.pdf
http//www.dailystaregypt.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=11370
http//www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/may/03/honour-killing
http//apha.confex.com/apha/132am/techprogram/paper_86737.htm
Morocco- http//en.afrik.com/article15639.html
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HOT AND BOTHERED OVER FAKE HYMENS
By Mona Eltahawy
Metro Canada
Oct. 23, 2009Proving one more time that when it comes to Muslim women, it?s about headscarves and hymens ? in other words, what?s on our heads and what?s between our legs ? Egypt is hot and bothered over a Chinese device that fakes female virginity.
It?s reportedly available in Syria for $15 but nobody knows if the gizmo called Gigimo is on sale in Egypt yet. Just the mere thought of a device, which is said to release liquid imitating blood, allowing a woman to fake virginity on her wedding night, has driven some conservatives crazy.
One Egyptian Muslim scholar even went so far as to say that people caught importing the virginity-faking device into the country should face the death penalty and the Muslim Brotherhood, the largest opposition bloc in parliament, want the kit banned on grounds it will encourage promiscuity.
The conservatives are not content that their ideology has put headscarves on the heads of 80 per cent of Egyptian women. Now it?s the horror of uncertainty about that ?good girl? they marry.
With all the troubles Egypt faces these days ? spiralling cost of living, a president in power for 28 years whose son looks likely to succeed him, etc. ? why all the fuss over hymens, real or fake?
Welcome to the hypocrisy and denial that together drum at the heart of conservative religious views on women and chastity. And in the case of Egypt, that conservatism applies equally to Muslims and Christians.
As a Muslim, I know the Qur?an preaches chastity for men and women, but the conservative obsession with women means only females are expected to abide by the prohibition on extramarital sex. This obsession with virginity is shallow at best and deadly at worst.
And it?s built on a lie ? people in Egypt are having sex outside of marriage, as they do everywhere. Hymen reconstruction surgery was an option for sexually active women who could afford it.
In less affluent and more rural areas, women have used body parts of animals for blood on the sheets. Now the Gigimo provides a cheaper, cleaner and non-surgical prop to maintain the lie that many men still want to believe.
Truth be told, it?s unlikely Egyptian women will flock to the Gigimo. But it?s been worth it just to watch male hysteria as the made-in-China hymens threatened to smash their virginity god.
http//www.monaeltahawy.com/blog/?p=188