hadiths of Salat?
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I am back from my picnic and visit to the Science Museum in London UK. A brilliant exhibition '1001 Inventions - Discover the Muslim Heritage in our World' at the museum. Definitely worth a visit for anyone in the vicinity.
Moving swiftly onto the comments on the post.
Dear OMF
A sore nerve has obviously been touched, thus your emotionally charged responses. Ouch!
Anyway, what part of the English language do you not understand? Like I said before, we accept the Quran in it's totallity and the existence of Allah SWT and we never required the application of physics to determine Allah SWT's presence. And yes, the Quran does tell us to bounce up and down (it's known as salaat by the way), mentioned over 700 times to be exact, but you beg to differ. You have to take this stance of denial, otherwise your whole way of life and thinking in relation to the Quran falls apart. Like I said before, 'if the Qur'an is the only authentic source of Guidance, why did it never explain how to offer salaat, although it repeatedly talks about its importance, associating it with eternal success and failure? What would we think of a communication that repeatedly emphasizes a certain act but never explains how to perform it? There are only two possibilities. Either it is a terrible omission (and in that case it cannot be from God) or another source for the how-to information is provided and it is a terrible mistake for any recipient to ignore that'!
Just look throughout history from the time of the Last Revelation (the Quran) until now and you will see milions and millions of people bouncing up and down 5 times a day who according to you have been brainwashed on a mass scale in order to do it despite not being told to do it even though it is clearly mentioned in the Quran to do it but you refuse to do it...... STFU!
How the f--k can you submit to the Will of your Creator when you take the stance of Iblis from the offset and refuse to accept the instructions in the Quran?
Furthermore, if the Prophet PBUH in your eyes is totally irrelevant thus your warped views, then why was he chosen to deliver the message for all mankind? I asked before and will ask again. Why was not the Quran delivered overnight in one lump sum, placed on a rock in book format for every Tom, Dick and Harry to pick up and interperate as they seem fit? Why was there a need for a Human Messenger and why did it come down in stages (23 years)? Go on, make some cock and bull story up trying to justify your stance.
Enough of the Bukhari this, Bukhari that, Hadith this, Hadith that, repetative parrot syndrome.
Either put up or shut up!
Dear Ayisha
In response to your query, please read the following ayat
3356 Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.
Is this ayat telling us to pray to or worship the Prophet PBUH or is it telling us to send blessings upon him which is totally different to worshipping? What would be your understanding of this ayat?
Peace
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And yes, the Quran does tell us to bounce up and down (it's known as salaat by the way), mentioned over 700 times to be exact, but you beg to differ.
Selam Zulu12
Can you define your understanding of 'salaat' with its meanings in different parts of the Quran.
Peace
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I am back from my picnic and visit to the Science Museum in London UK. A brilliant exhibition '1001 Inventions - Discover the Muslim Heritage in our World' at the museum. Definitely worth a visit for anyone in the vicinity.
Moving swiftly onto the comments on the post.
Dear OMF
A sore nerve has obviously been touched, thus your emotionally charged responses. Ouch!
Anyway, what part of the English language do you not understand? Like I said before, we accept the Quran in it's totallity and the existence of Allah SWT and we never required the application of physics to determine Allah SWT's presence. And yes, the Quran does tell us to bounce up and down (it's known as salaat by the way), mentioned over 700 times to be exact, but you beg to differ. You have to take this stance of denial, otherwise your whole way of life and thinking in relation to the Quran falls apart. Like I said before, 'if the Qur'an is the only authentic source of Guidance, why did it never explain how to offer salaat, although it repeatedly talks about its importance, associating it with eternal success and failure? What would we think of a communication that repeatedly emphasizes a certain act but never explains how to perform it? There are only two possibilities. Either it is a terrible omission (and in that case it cannot be from God) or another source for the how-to information is provided and it is a terrible mistake for any recipient to ignore that'!
Just look throughout history from the time of the Last Revelation (the Quran) until now and you will see milions and millions of people bouncing up and down 5 times a day who according to you have been brainwashed on a mass scale in order to do it despite not being told to do it even though it is clearly mentioned in the Quran to do it but you refuse to do it...... STFU!
How the f--k can you submit to the Will of your Creator when you take the stance of Iblis from the offset and refuse to accept the instructions in the Quran?
Furthermore, if the Prophet PBUH in your eyes is totally irrelevant thus your warped views, then why was he chosen to deliver the message for all mankind? I asked before and will ask again. Why was not the Quran delivered overnight in one lump sum, placed on a rock in book format for every Tom, Dick and Harry to pick up and interperate as they seem fit? Why was there a need for a Human Messenger and why did it come down in stages (23 years)? Go on, make some cock and bull story up trying to justify your stance.
Enough of the Bukhari this, Bukhari that, Hadith this, Hadith that, repetative parrot syndrome.
Either put up or shut up!
As far as I am concerned, the question of "what is salat in the quran" is a VERY different story to "is following hadeeth part of the quranic way", there are two very different questions. Of course my response is going to be slightly emotionally charged, do you think I'm going to sit around watching hadeethists try to justify all sorts of ridiculous cruelty to others and associate that with the word of Allah? No thanks!
We have in our hands a very beautiful, elegant, concise and spectacular book that puts into words certain things in a single sentence that would normally take humans several libraries to bring forth. It is difficult for me to comprehend the mind that wrote the quran, it certainly is not of human origin. Even so, it does this within the framework of Arabic tongue. However the ahadeeth are very different, they are also in the arabic tongue but their human origins are self-evident, it is very easy to look at hadeeth and think "someone sat down and thought this crap up".
As stated before, you pre-assume that the quran is talking about your "ritual salat" and then you ask me, where does the quran tell you how to do it. That is patently absurd, it is obvious to me that there has been some major distortion of the quranic interpretation going on, mostly via hadeethist hands. Logically the entirety of "ahadeeth" are discounted when the quran states things such as "In which hadeeth after this will they believe" and "Conjecture is not comparable to truth". And consider that it states that the universe was created in definite truth, not conjecture. As I said before, there are no "chain of narrations" involved in deducing anything in physics. If Allah does not leave uncertainty in the planet's orbit (a minor deviation from correct values would kill us all), why does he supposedly leave uncertainty and conjecture for his foremost followers?
There are only two possibilities. Either it is a terrible omission (and in that case it cannot be from God) or another source for the how-to information is provided and it is a terrible mistake for any recipient to ignore that'!
There is a third possibility which lies outside of your reality as a hadeethist, that God the almighty, all-knowing leaves nothing from his book so there is no omission, rather you are on a wild goose chase so you end up having to find a goose elsewhere.
How the f--k can you submit to the Will of your Creator when you take the stance of Iblis from the offset and refuse to accept the instructions in the Quran?
Hilarious. I do accept those clear instructions I see in the quran, every last one of them and while following them, not once I have gone wrong, such is the wisdom & foresight of the almighty. I hold back where my knowledge is limited but I have not gone wrong yet. I sure as hell do not need an Islamic Mullah telling me that I must use a yellow towel when I shower or else I shall burn in hell. Would you like to double check what the stance of iblis is? Iblis entices people to follow the ways of their fathers and avoid questioning them.
006.114 Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah? And He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) made plain; and those whom We have given the Book know that it is revealed by your Lord with truth, therefore you should not be of the disputers.
006.115 And the word of your Lord has been accomplished truly and justly; there is none who can change His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
006.116 And if you obey most of those in the earth, they will lead you astray from Allah's way; they follow but conjecture and they only lie.
006.117 Surely your Lord-- He best knows who goes astray from His way, and He best knows those who follow the right course.
The messenger is not the judge in our affairs, it is clearly Allah who judges what is right and wrong. The messenger passes this on. He does not speak of his own accord yet we see so much of this going on in ahadeeth, he even casts magic spells on Abu Hurairah to conveniently ensure that his ahadeeth will be known for all. And who relates this to us, Abu Hurairah rotfl
Again, my prime reason for rejecting ahadeeth is clear. When I meet a fellow "Muslim" and we do something, I don't see why we should ever come to a difference of opinion about something which is in the book. Yet when I followed the hadeethist path, this would come up the majority of time and the end result was always "I follow the opinion of that madhab while you follow this one". Alongside this I spend most of my time studying physics and I don't find any conjecture, there is complete certainty about an actual result. The difference being however that in physics, there is room for conjecture when you hypothesize something. In doing so you assume that you DO NOT KNOW what is the reality. You put this to the test and then the reality is apparent, nobody holds on to the plum pudding model of the atom long after it has been disproven. However when it comes to quranic ordainments, the almight says there is no room for conjecture or hypothesizing in his book and I will accept that over any lesser knowing mortal's opinion, thank you very much.
I am fed up of following the conjecture of those who clearly are not qualified to judge in matters of God yet claim to do so.
One more thing, the ahadeeth contain many things contradictory to reality. If we were to narrow these down and delete all the bullshit, then we would essentially arrive at a list of sayings that are commonly obvious just as the truth in the quran is commonly obvious. I would have no problem following such hadeeth because they correspond to the path of Allah. However I am not prepared to trawl through thousands of pages of conjecture to find these gems when I have a small book where each sentence is a gem in itself.
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I am back from my picnic and visit to the Science Museum in London UK. A brilliant exhibition '1001 Inventions - Discover the Muslim Heritage in our World' at the museum. Definitely worth a visit for anyone in the vicinity.
Glad you had a good day. never been to the Science Museum, thats one I always wanted to visit though. Londons Museums are fantastic but I would need a week ;DLike I said before, 'if the Qur'an is the only authentic source of Guidance, why did it never explain how to offer salaat, although it repeatedly talks about its importance, associating it with eternal success and failure? What would we think of a communication that repeatedly emphasizes a certain act but never explains how to perform it? There are only two possibilities. Either it is a terrible omission (and in that case it cannot be from God) or another source for the how-to information is provided and it is a terrible mistake for any recipient to ignore that'!
Quran does repeatedly mention salat and majority of the verses call you to 'establish the prayer' or 'establish regular prayer', yes it is associated with eternal success or failure if you dont esablish regular prayer. There is no reason to explain 'how to perform it' as there are many verse which show to stand, bow or prostrate to Allah, the angels did it and they also did it to Adam. the prostration is a sign of submittal.
I have been up studying most of the night and found this verse interesting
2441 Seest thou not that it is Allah Whose praises all beings in the heavens and on earth do celebrate, and the birds (of the air) with wings outspread? Each one knows its own (mode of) prayer and praise. And Allah knows well all that they do.So everything even birds know the mode of prayer and praise.
The thing that struck me, at about 4am this morning, was that the prayer is NOT for Allah, it is for us. Many verses says 'establish the prayer' Abraham 'established the prayer' Moses 'established the prayer'. He tells you to recite from the book, He tells you to remember Him. This is what the prayer is for, to have a time to remember Allah and ONLY Allah, to praise Him and ONLY Him and when established regular prayers are performed along with charity and doing good, there can be no room for evil or falling into disbelief.
Now if you have a particular 'ritual' and verses and extras that the entire ummah says exactly the same, there is NO reflection about what you are saying and there is no one to one communication, you are not remembering Allah and instead fall into 'reciting by rote' while your mind is thinking about other things. Hadith will tell you the same and even how to get back on track of remembering Allah while you pray. This is because there is no thinking and reflecting on the prayer but just 'doing' it as many muslims do, reciting by rote everything they are told. your physical body is doing the 'actions' and your mouth utters 'the words' but your heart, your mind, your soul is elsewhere because the other bits of you know what to do as a ritual. Basically, its empty. thats why there are no 'rules' on HOW to perform the prayer and what to say, its left to YOU as its YOU that should be thinking and reflecting and praising Allah in YOUR way, from YOUR heart. Not some ritualistic rendition of what is claimed to be 'The Prayer'. Moses, Abraham and all other prophets 'established the prayer' but did they do it exactly like you do? No of course not, because they knew that immitation does not mean worship as its only immitating someone else and not from YOUR heart.
Now tell me that your mind NEVER wonders off somewhere while you do your ritual prayers.
The hadith dont actually tell you what to do either. There are some that say they knew what he was saying by the movement of his beard, come on! ;D Quran does tell you to recite from the book and remember Allah, is that so hard you need a set of someone elses hadith to tell you HOW?
Dear Ayisha
In response to your query, please read the following ayat
3356 Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.
Is this ayat telling us to pray to or worship the Prophet PBUH or is it telling us to send blessings upon him which is totally different to worshipping? What would be your understanding of this ayat?
Peace
thank you and I agree it is saying send blessing on him as Allah and the angels do
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Dear OMF
.... STFU!
How the f--k can y....
Either put up or shut up!Dear Zulu12
Is that how a muslim talk?
You never gave me any reference, just saidd bukhari... can you quote me exact Hadiths which gives method of salat or atleast let me know that you don't know? -
Dear Zulu12
Is that how a muslim talk?
You never gave me any reference, just saidd bukhari... can you quote me exact Hadiths which gives method of salat or atleast let me know that you don't know?Selam
In my search there has been no hadith which I have come across which gives specifics about ritual prayers. I hold my hands up that I am a bad researcher if anyone comes up with one and shares it with us. However, I have been told by my sunni friends how do I pray by using Quran only? I also say and I might be wrong that the Quran also does not mention any form of ritual prayer, again I hold up my hand and say I am wrong if evidence is brought forward.
Peace
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Dear Zulu12
Is that how a muslim talk?Nothing wrong with a bit of strong language as long as it doesn't turn into a bust-up. The strongest language is from Allah...
It is about time any side puts up or shuts up. There is too much strife remnant from the rubbish of old.
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The prophet SAW cured him for a reason, and that reason is obvious now!
did the prophet really had such special power? if so, does the quran say this of him? there is a hadith of prophet that he said i am no more than a human just like you (this hadith of his is written in the quran)
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Hey zulu12, I must say you take some very long picnics! Would you like to put that aside for a sliver of eternally precious time and answer those questions I ask of you? It is a given that our eternal creator, the all-knowing and surely the most merciful who created the universe in pure truth would guide anyone who so wishes towards a clear and unassailable path.
If your path of following ahadeeth is so correct and in line with the divine teaching then it shall surely be completely unassailable. It would of course be very easy for me as a former "Sunni" to simply revert to the ways of the majority and carry on in the ways I have learned from my parents.
You know it is incumbent on every believer to guide another claimed believer to the truth and it would be incredibly and eternally selfish of you to withold the light of Allah from me especially when I can see it all around me anyway.
Thanks in advance for your light bearing response, point me in the general direction of the land of truth/jannah where perhaps Imam Bukhari and his cohorts now reside! sun
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Guys what is wrong with you all?
Why is it that every single thread starts off ok and then descends into mud-slinging and general verbal abuse?
The irony is that we all mock the 'traditionalists', but in any sunni forum they show far greater morality and manners than any single thread on this site.Secondly,
In my search there has been no hadith which I have come across which gives specifics about ritual prayers. I hold my hands up that I am a bad researcher if anyone comes up with one and shares it with us.
Zulu already mentioned twice where to find the hadiths he is speaking of.
Here you can find the translation of Sahih BukhariAnd here and here you can find a plethora of hadiths mentioning the forms of prayer
Also, a ritual is anything that is prescribed to be repeated at a specific time. The Quran mentions that salah is to occur at specific times in the day, and is thus a ritual. I mention this only because people keep repeating that rituals aren't a part of Islam.
Guys, if we're going to discuss something with each other, how about we adhere to the common principles mentioned in the Quran.
And if we fail to agree on something, then let us follow these commandsMany of the People of the Book wish they might restore you as unbelievers, after you have believed, in the jealousy of their souls, after the truth has become clear to them; yet do pardon and be forgiving 2109
Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. 1096
O ye who believe! Let not some men among you mock others It may be that they are better than them. Nor let some women laugh at others It may be that they are better than them. Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, (to be used of one) after he has believed And those who do not desist are (indeed) doing wrong. 4911
Honestly I'm getting rather tired of this site....everyone is an expert and illuminated and enlightened, and everyone else are idiots and morons and kaafirs and mushrikeen... even the oldest members of this site respond immediately with derision and sarcasm..
Salaam to you all
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Salaam THS et al.
I do agree with you that many are resorting to insults on these forums now a days (including myself). But, I would avoid generalizing your point to everyone.Still, upon reading the many hadith on salat, I can not help but feel they are a bit disjointed as the hadith is on most subjects. Regardless, I am convinced that the Quran does not give Bukhari 300 years later the right to make laws (or "explain" the Quran), so even if Bukhari is 100% right (which I doubt), I would still only look to the Quran. In fact, the Quran says plenty on salat such as we are to practice it three times a day and recite the quran and what not. If people feel they need more details, take it up with God. This argument reminds me of a story in Surah Baqarah. Just replace, sacrificing the heifer with making salat.
267 And remember Moses said to his people "Allah commands that ye sacrifice a heifer." They said "Makest thou a laughing-stock of us?" He said "Allah save me from being an ignorant (fool)!"
268 They said "Beseech on our behalf Thy Lord to make plain to us what (heifer) it is!" He said; "He says The heifer should be neither too old nor too young, but of middling age. Now do what ye are commanded!"
269 They said "Beseech on our behalf Thy Lord to make plain to us Her colour." He said "He says A fawn-coloured heifer, pure and rich in tone, the admiration of beholders!"
270 They said "Beseech on our behalf Thy Lord to make plain to us what she is To us are all heifers alike We wish indeed for guidance, if Allah wills."
271 He said "He says A heifer not trained to till the soil or water the fields; sound and without blemish." They said "Now hast thou brought the truth." Then they offered her in sacrifice, but not with good-will.In the end the heifer was sacrificed but it was useless as merely gilded action is no replacement for the "good will" (271) that should be at the core of every ritual a Muslim performs. Unlike the antagonists in this story, we should focus more on how we can connect and be subservient to Allah through our prayer instead of how we should pace our breathing while we pray.
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Everyone knows there is information on traditional prayer in the traditional ahadith/narrations, but a coherent method there is not. See the link I previously referred to
http//www.astudyofquran.org/web/index.php?id=60,0,0,1,0,0The Quran contains a ton of info on salat/bond
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/quran_on_salat.htm -
Selam ths
I understand your fustration. I am assuming however, that the people who come here are seeking the truth because they have used there God given mind to question things which they have seen and do not add up. If thats a crime then I am sure many along with me are guilty. The hadiths you reference are disjointed and seem like collections which are not consistent with each other, they seem like stories people would have heard around a camp fire and given weight to by saying that so and so said this so it must be true. I ask this, could a simple word such as salaat not have been played with to try and fit a particular view point? In some verses that view point seems to fit and in others it does not. Here is something I have read which I am still trying to investigate within my limited time and resources, some may say don't waiste your time as it is not true, so convince me!
Let us see how the translators are forced to jump from
one meaning to another for the same word or the
derivatives. I call this The Sol-laa Shuffle.
Form Occurs Explanation
Solaa 3 In 7531 and 9610 stated as
ritual prayers
faSol-laa 1 In 8715 & 1082 stated as
ritual prayers.
yuSol-laa 3 In 227, 1321 and 1325
stated as must tie or connect
the relationship with God
Sol-lee 1 In 9103 stated (with regard
To the Prophet) as
supplicated or said a prayer
for the people, not ritual
prayer
tuSol-lee 1 In 984 stated as ritual
prayer (Do not pray over the
hypocrites)
faSol-lee 1 In 1082 stated ritually pray
to your Lord, but in Arabic
faSol-laa lirobbika means
?uphold your commitments
for Your Lord.?
yuSol-lee 2 In 339 and 3343
(a) In 3343 it is means God
and the Angels ?blessed? the
believers. Nothing about
ritual prayers.
(b) But in 339 it is stated as
Zachariah doing the ritual
prayers.
Sol-lu 1 In 3356 stated as the
People must Solluu or honour
the Prophet. Nothing about
ritual prayers.
YuSol-lu 3 Once in 3356 and twice in
4102.
(a) In 3356 stated as God
And
(b) the angels blessed the
Prophet for the word
?yuSollu?.
(b) In 4102 the same word is
stated as ritual prayers.
YaSilu 5 In 490, 6136 (2), 1170,
1181, 1321 and 835 stated
as people who connect a
relationship with God.
muSollan (sing.) 1 In 2125 stated as a place of
worship, not person who
performs ritual prayer.
muSolleen (plural) 3 In 7022, 7443 and 1074 not
stated as places of worship
but people who perform ritual
prayers.
Sol-laa ta 46 No ritual methods in context.
Sol-laa tee 20 No ritual methods in context.
Sol-laa tu 1 In 6210 stated as ritual
prayers.
Sol-laa taka 1 In 9103 stated as meaning
the Prophet?s ritual prayer
makes the people happy. The
Reading clearly says that no
burdened soul will bear the
burden of another. So how
can this be?
Sol-laa teka 1 In 17110 stated as meaning
perform your ritual prayer in
a moderate tone. But today,
the noon and evening prayers
of the Arab religion are
performed in silence.
Sol-laa tuka 1 In 1187 stated as the prophet
Shuaib?s ritual prayers (in the
context of them being able to
change the economic system).
Sol-laa tahu 1 2441 is said by the Arab
religion to mean that the birds
of the air perform their ritual
prayer. Think about that one
for a moment?
Sol-laa tehim 5 692, 232, 7023, 7034 and
1075 are stated with the
sense you can trust those
people who perform the ritual
prayer, and they also make
others understand that the
people who perform the ritual
prayer will always fulfil their
promises in 7032-35.
Experience tends to show
otherwise.
Sol-laa tuhum 1 In 835 stated as meaning
their ritual prayer is nothing
but controversy and rebellion.
Solaa-waatee 3 999, 2238 and 239.
(a) In 999 stated as their good
deeds will take them closer to
God and also the ?Sol-laawaatee?
(ritual prayer?) of the
Prophet. Another illogical
statement. If we give food to
a hungry man how does that
take us closer the Prophet?s
?ritual prayer??
(b) In 2238 stated as meaning we
are supposed to safeguard our
?ritual prayers? Sol-laawaatee.
(c) In 239 stated as meaning,
?They observe their ritual
prayers (sola-waa-teehim).?
Here the religionists and the
u?lema say they can fulfil
their promises by performing
the ritual prayer, they also say
they are trustworthy because
they pray ritually. What do
you think?
Solaa-waa-tun 2 2157 and 2240. 2157 ?were
there any consistency ? would
need to be rendered thus as
?upon them shall be ritual
prayers from their Lord?,
whereas 2240 renders the
word as churches. Some
Arabic experts say Sol-laawaatun
in this context means
oratories. What in the world
is an ?oratory? in this context?This twisting of one root word in the Reading yields
many differing definitions, some of which are totally
unrelated to the root word. No Arab priest today can
provide any logical explanation for this inconsistency. They
just regurgitate the Sol-laa Shuffle as a knee-jerk reaction to
any challenge on the subject.Ref (Aidid Safar - Mental Bondage.)
Peace
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I understand your fustration. I am assuming however, that the people who come here are seeking the truth because they have used there God given mind to question things which they have seen and do not add up. If thats a crime then I am sure many along with me are guilty. The hadiths you reference are disjointed and seem like collections which are not consistent with each other...
Heheh you misunderstood my intention. I'm not making an argument as to whether the hadiths are clear and consistent or not or anything like that, I was simply getting irritated by everyone repeatedly asking zulu to quote the hadiths when he mentioned it more than once.
I have no problem with any arguments that people propose, in fact I enjoy a good debate. I just have a problem with the fact that these are often not debates or discussions but people preaching to the other and then flinging offense when they don't agree.
Everyone knows there is information on traditional prayer in the traditional ahadith/narrations, but a coherent method there is not.
? There is a coherent method in the hadiths. You just have to read several of them. But they give a very detailed illustration of how the Prophet performed prayer.
The article you posted makes this quote
Bukhari does not give the methods of prayer in a coherent form. One has to go through a lot of his quoted hadiths to form some sensible idea.
So what? The Quran doesn't have a chapter on prayer where it outlines it in a clear and coherent form. We have to delve into it and look for the verses that mention prayer.
Again, I'm not arguing either way, I'm just pointing this out because everybody keeps repeating the same falsehoods over and over again.- A clear method of prayer CAN be established from hadith literature, if one is willing to read through them.
- This method is more detailed than the method that can be obtained from the Quran.
- This does not mean that hadiths are correct. It just means that they exist and if one wished, he could find out exactly how to pray from the hadiths.
Just a quick glance at the links I posted give hadiths that together illustrate clearly a method of prayer.
Honestly the article you've posted is biased. I'm not disagreeing with the conclusions reached, but I am pointing out that the article is judging the hadiths by a more stringent criteria than the Quran.
It is only after searching through a large number of hadiths that we can find what perhaps we are meant to say while performing the set of postures from standing to bending and then in prostration but only, it should be emphasised, after a wide search, and not without variations and contradictions.
Aside from some variations, how is that any different than your own articles on salah? You had to go through the entire Quran
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ths
From google
coherent marked by an orderly, logical, and aesthetically consistent relation of partSince there is variation and contradiction, it is not coherent. One must pick and choose. That was my point.
I do not agree salat means the traditional prayer in The Quran. This is obvious from The Quran itself.
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Wakas
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Don't quote words at me. I know what they mean and you know I know what they mean. It's condescending and arrogant.
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I know what you think salah is.
This is obvious from The Quran itself.
From google
Easily discovered, seen, or understood; readily perceived by the eye or the intellect; plain; evident; apparent;If it was obvious there wouldn't be so much debate about it. The amount of people who believe what you believe are what? 1000 people?
By your standards of what is obvious and what isn't, we can assume that the rest of the world is stupid. Many senior members in this forum disagree with your interpretation, including Layth. Since he cannot see what is obvious, he must also be stupid.- You said to look at the article. I did, and gave you my comments. It said that prayer is incoherent in the hadiths because you have to go through many of them. If prayer is incoherent in the hadiths because you have to go through many of them, then so is salah in the Quran.
Simple.
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