Gods System/Sunnatallah

unknownuser

Well, then you can call it either "APPLE" or "the apple", there is no difference. Either method of reference is syntactically correct.

Irrespective of all this, our lord tells us not to get lost in syntax and actually make headway as to what is peaceful and not peaceful. Vain discourses do not help one prevail in this life let alone the hereafter.

The rules are not universal either; change in syntax reflects a change in the viewpoints of society. A form of a word/linguistic symbol conjures up associations and connotations in one's brain. Referring to "Allah" will instantly conjure up all the previous connotations associated with "Allah" such as "hadeeth, terrorism, bombs, halal, salat, etc" and all the brain circuits involved in the programming/conditioning of years gone by are fired up once more. So by referring to "Allah" you introduce an ice cube into an ocean instead of creating a separate sea.

The gamble is whether the new sea of connotation is isomorphic to the old ocean in which you dropped the ice cube and I would say that going by the veracity of hadeeth, the "new sea" is far more robust and resilient. Consider the terms "collateral damage" vs "murder of civilians", they both refer to identical things yet they conjure up vastly different emotional responses. If you read a news article, it is easy to skip over "collateral damage" yet bells ring and birds shriek when "murder of civilians" is mentioned.

The beauty of words is that they refer to very precise things (if one had the computational capacity, a word could be turned into a mathematical pattern) but their sound creates a vibrational pattern that can excite the brain because of prior emotional associations with that vibrational pattern. A degree of such synaesthesia is inherent in all humanity that possesses the ability to process language.

In fact, the "wheel" has already been reinvented by hadeethists of the past and this is reflected in the fact that many quranic terms remain untranslated and kept as proper nouns across all languages despite having meaning in themselves. This is a fine example as to why reinventing the wheel is very important if you wish to change global perception in any way. You may go down a grade from pneumatic tires to hexagons as the hadeethists have done or you may try to ascend a level and find out what our creator is actually telling us.

To paraphrase, nothing seems to be universal save God and human ignorance. And the latter will be eradicated soon.

Ayisha

Quran was already written and done but because human are too slow not like Jinn or angels, and the ability of mind to sustain this whole information in one time, it's too dangerous for him. And it takes years because of events and dates and issues that were wrong at that time or are discussed in that time .

So the 'written' Quran, as we have it now, was 'written' long before but God had to wait to give us parts of it so that 'our lives and timings of events' could catch up with it?

hhhmm, i'm gonna have to have a think about that one ???

david_rs_aitken

Peace,

la ilah illa allah = no god except the god.

"allah" is a contraction of "al - ilah" = "the god".

In English, we often use capital letter for meaningless proper names. "Allah" is not a meaningless proper name, since it means "the god".

My name is David, which means nothing in English and comes from Hebrew I guess and has something to do with being loved, though I'm bound to be hated by some. Your name is Khalil, but not everyone would want to take you as a friend. A person's name doesn't guarantee anything. I don't mind being called "Human 459485859094" so long as I have the mercy of the god.

RA786

hmm I like this discussion, I like where it is going.

It reminds me of...

http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/Godsaid.jpg

There are just some things that seem illogical to me though.

For instance, Chimps/monkeys do not have Morals. There is no such thing as "Zina, Haraam,/Adultery Forbidden wrongness."
Monkeys Kill each other and then Cannibalize the victims, there has been open Homosexuality, and Incest among them aswell I believe.

What I dont understand is, If GOD's Message and rules have always been constant (Allah never changes his mind) then if we are to believe we evolved from Apes...They why would we NOW be held responsible and have Laws/Morals when before "We" or our "Ancient Parents" did not?

Also, If we do subscribe to the Entire Evolutionary Belief, what about Isa bin Maryum? A pregnant Virgin....That goes against Biology and Science.

If Allah has the Power to Make a Virgin Pregnant (Kun Fiyakun Be and it is) then couldn't he have done the same for Adam (i.e. Humans)?

I think this is interesting and I love where its going. I do however feel many times People Change religion to fit the Modern Views of Science, and this can sometimes create some problems.

Peace/Salaam

unknownuser

No, wrong .This shows your ignorance even of Quran that you are claiming that you followed him . Quran didn't take 23 years in explaining or in sendind down as you claimed . Quran was already written and done but because human are too slow not like Jinn or angels, and the ability of mind to sustain this whole information in one time, it's too dangerous for him. And it takes years because of events and dates and issues that were wrong at that time or are discussed in that time .

Let me ask you this question when God created the seven skyes and the seven Earths in six days, how do you understand this ?

According to hadeethists the quran was revealed over 23 years and that is also why there are "Makkan verses" and "Medinan verses". Are you delusional or just very ignorant of your own people?

As for your other question, I will answer that when you tell me, using quranic evidence, how is it that if the planets & birds do not follow any conjecture or any opinions of sheikhs in their salat, why we the foremost of Allah's creation should do so.

Zulu12, I will refer you to 7516. It is well outside of my capability to verify such a thing. If my almighty creator does not ask me about such a question I don't think you as a mortal have any such right to do so, thank you very much.

As for the ridiculous contempt some people have towards evolution in this thread, I will ask one simple question. In al-quran, 2435, is the statement that "Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth" a literal phrase or a parable/metaphor? Tell me from your superior Arabic knowledge so that I can understand the message of Allah better. Much thanks.

herbman

hmm I like this discussion, I like where it is going.

It reminds me of...

There are just some things that seem illogical to me though.

For instance, Chimps/monkeys do not have Morals. There is no such thing as "Zina, Haraam,/Adultery Forbidden wrongness."
Monkeys Kill each other and then Cannibalize the victims, there has been open Homosexuality, and Incest among them aswell I believe.

What I dont understand is, If GOD's Message and rules have always been constant (Allah never changes his mind) then if we are to believe we evolved from Apes...They why would we NOW be held responsible and have Laws/Morals when before "We" or our "Ancient Parents" did not?

Also, If we do subscribe to the Entire Evolutionary Belief, what about Isa bin Maryum? A pregnant Virgin....That goes against Biology and Science.

If Allah has the Power to Make a Virgin Pregnant (Kun Fiyakun Be and it is) then couldn't he have done the same for Adam (i.e. Humans)?

I think this is interesting and I love where its going. I do however feel many times People Change religion to fit the Modern Views of Science, and this can sometimes create some problems.

Peace/Salaam

Salam RA, all,

20123
He said "Get ye down both of you all together from the Garden, with enmity one to another; but if, as is sure there comes to you guidance from Me, whosoever follows My guidance, will not lose his way nor fall into misery

238
We said "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you guidance from Me" whosoever follows My guidance on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

When Allah swt says "Get ye down both of you all together from the Garden", do you think Adam and his spouse were made of "meat and bones" or do you think is their soul that was to get down to earth?

In that case when the "soul" get down from the Garden (a very far place), do you think on earth there was "already" the bodies waiting to host these souls? for me it is Yes, because

230
Behold thy Lord said to the angels "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said "Wilt thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood? Whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said "I know what ye know not."

How do you think angels knew men will mischief and shed blood --> they knew the animal already!

And last, how do you think you can "travel" billions of light years between earth and the Garden? Surely not with your body shape which is an inconvenient envelop to travel such a dsitance.

3942
It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep those on whom He has passed the decree of death, He keeps back (from returning to life), but the rest He sends (to their bodies) for a term appointed. Verily in this are Signs for those who reflect.

Conclusion is evolution theory true? as long as science can proove it, yes, otherwise Allah swt would not create the Universe in 6 periodes, time for the evolution to take place and develop.

Peace

Leyna

For instance, Chimps/monkeys do not have Morals. There is no such thing as "Zina, Haraam,/Adultery Forbidden wrongness."

According to Bukhari, there is.

Because of the abhorrence and obscenity of this action, even the monkeys are offended by it, and they carried out the hadd punishment of stoning on a monkey which committed zina, as was narrated in Saheeh al-Bukhaari from ?Amr ibn Maymoon who said ?During the Jaahiliyyah I saw a monkey which had committed zina, so the other monkeys got together and stoned it, and I stoned it with them.? (al-Manaaqib, 5360).

RA786

I believe in Evolution, because there is a large amount of Irrefutable Date in Evolution.
However I dont believe in ALL ASPECTS of evolution.

The Evolutionary Belief is very diverse just Like Islam. There is not just ONE TRUE CONCRETE Evolutionary Theory.
I may believe in Islam, however that doesnt mean I believe in the same "Islam" the Majority of Muslims Believe in today's world "Sunnism".

As far as Us evolving from Apes, I need to research this topic more.

what I dont understand is how You can have Apes and Humans but no Middle man.

for instance today we have in the World/b]
A Chimpanzee on one end... (common ancestor)
http//i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee211/sailajaprakash/chimpanzee.jpg

and then we have Us Humans.
http//i14.photobucket.com/albums/a345/stepurhan/Amsterdam%2010-4-10/Group.jpg

Where is the Monkey in the Middle?
we believe that He died, he became Extinct etc...
But since Evolution is Constant, wouldnt we find a bunch of Middle Human/monkeys?
I mean evolution is still in effect therefore I would think they exist.
There has to be some Monkeys right now in the world who are already half-way evolved into Neanderthal man.
Where is he at.

I dont buy the "He is extinct", even if he was extinct, since we have evolution, is he going to reappear again?
will we see the "Common Ancestor again?" and what is our next step in evolution?

Thereformer1

So the 'written' Quran, as we have it now, was 'written' long before but God had to wait to give us parts of it so that 'our lives and timings of events' could catch up with it?

look at what God said " " " " means that God has made it parts >> for what ? >>> God said " ". means for strethen your heart and comprehend and hold it .

hhhmm, i'm gonna have to have a think about that one ???

Yes, and see above.

P.S This is not the subject .

Ayisha

look at what God said " " " " means that God has made it parts >> for what ? >>> God said " ". means for strethen your heart and comprehend and hold it .
Yes, and see above.
P.S This is not the subject .

divided into verses and sent in stages so that it is easy to recite to the people, yes I agree. Comprehend--you do understand what that word means dont you? It means to fully understand it. So why do you need hadith if you fully understand it and it has strengthened your heart?

It may not be the subject but I am replying to your post which changed the subject to this one and my question was "So the 'written' Quran, as we have it now, was 'written' long before but God had to wait to give us parts of it so that 'our lives and timings of events' could catch up with it? which you still didnt answer AGAIN

zulu12

Dear OMF

If you don't want anyone to ask you any questions, then refrain from posting your comments and views on a public forum. It's as simple as that. Until such time, you will be asked all sorts of questions. If you cannot answer, don't post. I will exercise my right to freedom of choice and freedom of speech to ask what I like, when I like and challenge whatever I feel like challenging.

Why don't you for the record, give a synopsis of the following ayats and confirm to us 'lost souls' what they actually mean concerning the Quran and it's revelation.

223 And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.

17106 (It is) a Qur'an which We have divided (into parts from time to time), in order that thou mightest recite it to men at intervals We have revealed it by stages.

2532 Those who reject Faith say "Why is not the Qur'an revealed to him all at once? Thus (is it revealed), that We may strengthen thy heart thereby, and We have rehearsed it to thee in slow, well-arranged stages, gradually.

7623 It is We Who have sent down the Qur'an to thee by stages.

Or are you of the opinion that the Quran came down in one full swoop in line with the following ayat thus contradicting ayat 2532 if we accept your position?

971 We have indeed revealed this (Message) in the Night of Power

What night of power? and when is it?

Be careful now. You must accept the Quran in totality and not pick and choose. Quagmire for you again!

Come on Einstein, time to get your thinking hat on and leave the anger hat at home.

Peace

Thereformer1

divided into verses and sent in stages so that it is easy to recite to the people, yes I agree. Comprehend--you do understand what that word means dont you? It means to fully understand it. So why do you need hadith if you fully understand it and it has strengthened your heart?

As I see your whole posts are about hadith wether the subject is about Quran or about science like I do not follow Quran , am I ? let me remind you that the sunnah Quran is in the first place . is that too hard to understand .

It may not be the subject but I am replying to your post which changed the subject to this one and my question was "So the 'written' Quran, as we have it now, was 'written' long before but God had to wait to give us parts of it so that 'our lives and timings of events' could catch up with it? which you still didnt answer AGAIN

I did answer your question . And I said that is for the prophet , for >>>strethen your heart(the prophet's heart) and comprehend and hold it

RA786

Question for Islamic Evolutionists

What is your view on Mary Mother of Isa's Pregnancy?-in light of the Modern Science View on Evolution and Biology
Does, this make things Problematic? Or Does Allah have the Ability to create Anomalies without contradiction his own laws?

kgwithnob

Question for Islamic Evolutionists

What is your view on Mary Mother of Isa's Pregnancy?-in light of the Modern Science View on Evolution and Biology
Does, this make things Problematic? Or Does Allah have the Ability to create Anomalies without contradiction his own laws?

Peace Dear RA786,

According to The Qur?aan, GOD?S SYSTEM/SUNNATALLAH is the Governing RULE, but there are always EXCEPTIONS. The miracles/signs that GOD decides to show the people at different turning points throughout the history are of the EXCEPTIONS, in order to leave no room for any excuse on the side of the disbelievers. GOD is Omnipotent. He is able to do anything and everything He deems necessary. That is why He is called GOD. On the other hand, the RULE of the game is CREATION through EVOLUTION, 99.9999?% of the time throughout the whole Universe.

Another very important point involving the discussion of evolutionary creation is that, we need to mainly stay put on the PHILOSOPHICAL rather than SCIENTIFIC side of the argument. In other words, we need to keep the big picture as the centerpiece rather than arguing around the small-dissected parts. Saying that though, our findings MUST NOT contradict scientific FACTS vs theories.

Peace,
Khalil

RA786

Peace Dear RA786,

According to The Qur?aan, GOD?S SYSTEM/SUNNATALLAH is the Governing RULE, but there are always EXCEPTIONS. The miracles/signs that GOD decides to show the people at different turning points throughout the history are of the EXCEPTIONS, in order to leave no room for any excuse on the side of the disbelievers. GOD is Omnipotent. He is able to do anything and everything He deems necessary. That is why He is called GOD. On the other hand, the RULE of the game is CREATION through EVOLUTION, 99.9999?% of the time throughout the whole Universe.

Another very important point involving the discussion of evolutionary creation is that, we need to mainly stay put on the PHILOSOPHICAL rather than SCIENTIFIC side of the argument. In other words, we need to keep the big picture as the centerpiece rather than arguing around the small-dissected parts. Saying that though, our findings MUST NOT contradict scientific FACTS vs theories.

Peace,
Khalil

Agreed , But Also Note God Doesnt Contradict himself nor Changes his mind.
So his Rule cannot Contradict another rule. I think he does this by not making Exceptions, but rather creates Other Laws we may not necessarily be aware of.
For Instance, Conditional Rules.

You are Protected from the Devil ....(Under certain Conditions)
Men and Woman are Born from two Parents (Under certain Conditions)
You cannot Bring the Dead back to life, Heal the Blind, or part the Sea (Unless under certain Conditions)

I know its basically the same as what you said (Exceptions), but I mean it more for a Non-believer who tries to find Contradictions in Gods word.
I would say to that person that there are Certain Terms and Conditional Laws that Apply based on other Laws and procedures that we are not yet Aware of.
There is a World of Infinite Possibility (Quantum Physics), however we do not have much wisdom of that world yet.

kgwithnob